View Full Version : pakistani's and caste...
lillayzee
17-05-08, 06:41 PM
salamz...does anyone have any info which clearly states the wrong-ness in looking at caste before choosing a partner??
Look up the marriage of Julaybib (ra) which was arranged by the Prophet (saw). Julaybib either didn't belong to a tribe or else he belonged to a tribe which was considered to be of very low status. He was also disfigured but he was very pious and dear to the Prophet (saw). The Prophet (saw) arranged Julaybib's (ra) marriage to a woman who was the daughter of a wealthy man from an influential family with high status. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Prophet (saw) married an Ethiopian woman even though he was Arab and he arranged the marriage of Bilal (ra) to an Arab woman even though he was black African too.
Another example (although it's not specific to marriage as such) I don't remember it too well so if anyone has the actual hadith on this issue then by all means paste it. It is about a Jew that went and interacted with some people in Medina, with the intention of causing fitnah (division and discord among the Muslims). He knew that the Muslims mainly comprised of 'muhajirs' from Mecca and 'Ansar' from Medina. He got into an argument with someone and they started calling upon their fellow tribesmen for help. One of the men called out "Oh Muhajirs (come and help me)!" whilst the other called out "Oh Ansar!" so more people came and got involved in the dispute. When the Prophet (saw) found out, he became annoyed and said to his people something to his people along the lines of "You are calling for/following the ways of jahiliya (ignorance/backwardness) whilst I am still among you"- meaning that he viewed allying on the basis of tribes instead of deen as being something ignorant and backward.
Unique1
18-05-08, 06:23 PM
Zaid bin Haritha(ra) was a freed slave he was married to Zainab the cousin of prophet(saw) although they did get divorced after but the purpose of their marriage was to show that islam believes in equality.
pshht id never marry a chaudry :vomit: :outta:
bhatti00
18-05-08, 06:29 PM
lol ^
Unique1
18-05-08, 06:30 PM
pshht id never marry a chaudry :vomit: :outta:
why:confused:
why:confused:
same reason i wuldnt go near a sheikh i suppose :outta: :p
Unique1
18-05-08, 07:40 PM
same reason i wuldnt go near a sheikh i suppose :outta: :p
y not?:rubeyes:
salamz...does anyone have any info which clearly states the wrong-ness in looking at caste before choosing a partner??
If you'll look around a little, a few weeks ago a Muslim member posted several long articles in the General section, I think, about the caste issue among Indian and Pakistani Muslims. I'm pretty sure there was Qu'ran/Sunnah-related info in those articles.
i wudnt marry a raiiN either or a marasi :rotfl:
I'll be honest I'd accept practically any nationality or origin but would be very reluctant to accept a Mirpuri rishta- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too cultural for my liking :nervous: Maybe IF (trust me that's a very big IF cos' I've yet to come across any who fit that description) the guy was Islamically inclined enough to not carry the usual cultural traits I'd normally associate with Mirpuris then I'd maybe consider him but otherwise no way. In fact, that's largely true of guys of any origin- I'd want the guy to be Islamically inclined enough to not carry the jahil aspects of the mentality in his own culture wherever that is.
Unique1
18-05-08, 08:02 PM
i wudnt marry a raiiN either or a marasi :rotfl:
dont forget the mochi:rolleyes:
it makes me want to know wat u are:D
Um_yusuf
18-05-08, 08:18 PM
salaam
Once again im surprised but more so dismayed by the attitude of some ummah members (especially pakis, before u start, im one too)
What makes you better than a 'marasi' or 'mochi'.....
only one thing and thats piety, otherwise jat, mochee marasee, arain, sheikh,butt and all of the other million castes (left by hindus) are all the SAME!!
what do you think Allah swt's gonna let you in jannah first just because your a 'choudhary' or jatt or whatever even though you openly disregard his (swt's) commands.
Learn more about the deen ppl and less about your 'rasam' and riwaaj'l!!:rolleyes:
/\ i agree, tsk tsk angel* and unique1, i am soo disappointed in you both astaghfirullah :outta:
Um_yusuf
18-05-08, 08:25 PM
/\ i agree, tsk tsk angel* and unique1, i am soo disappointed in you both astaghfirullah :outta:
You too mms, cheeky thing!!!
:torture::torture::torture:
Unique1
18-05-08, 08:27 PM
/\ i agree, tsk tsk angel* and unique1, i am soo disappointed in you both astaghfirullah :outta:
:rubeyes:
Unique1
18-05-08, 08:29 PM
salaam
Once again im surprised but more so dismayed by the attitude of some ummah members (especially pakis, before u start, im one too)
What makes you better than a 'marasi' or 'mochi'.....
only one thing and thats piety, otherwise jat, mochee marasee, arain, sheikh,butt and all of the other million castes (left by hindus) are all the SAME!!
what do you think Allah swt's gonna let you in jannah first just because your a 'choudhary' or jatt or whatever even though you openly disregard his (swt's) commands.
Learn more about the deen ppl and less about your 'rasam' and riwaaj'l!!:rolleyes:
what did i do:rubeyes: i dont mind if my hubbys marasi ,mochee, black, white green as long as hes a gud muslim:inlove:
Um_yusuf
18-05-08, 08:42 PM
what did i do:rubeyes: i dont mind if my hubbys marasi ,mochee, black, white green as long as hes a gud muslim:inlove:
Sis
i didnt direct this at you , its directed more at those who really do believe in castes and disregard what Islam says
*hugs*:)
Unique1
18-05-08, 08:55 PM
Sis
i didnt direct this at you , its directed more at those who really do believe in castes and disregard what Islam says
*hugs*:)
:there:
islam is 4 everyone and thats the beauty of islam:hidban:
I hope you were all joking about mochi's etc!! Coz that is just not right :0: Makes me grateful that I was born here and never lived there/got into that mindset. Pakistanis are pakistanis!! And pakistanis are just people, remember; the arab isn't superior to the non-arab :mad:
insomniac
18-05-08, 09:06 PM
jokes aside how do people even know what the caste system is living in the UK?
it doesn't belong to Muslims....it's a Hindu trait - we shouldn't even give it precedence
the castes don't really mean owt no more, coz people might say your mochi which means shoe welders and the caste sticks but you might have a good job and have people who claim to be from higher castes working for you so like its just silly :smack:
afrasayab
19-05-08, 05:33 PM
it is shameful that ppl still consider caste and openly say that they wouldn't associate with a certain caste. I seriously don't want to associate with any culture or caste, just call me a muslim and that would be enough
LastFriday
19-05-08, 06:01 PM
heh...pakis
salahuldin786
19-05-08, 06:13 PM
Chaurdy in the house :hidban::hidban: booooo to raja's
assalam alaikum
i want to confess some thing..
i like pakistani people because they are brave but i hate them because they are the most ignorant 1 in deen.. all bida in their culture and home but not all are 1..
what kind of culture is this who asks bride to take with her all dowery???
why pakistani people discriminates??
and why they do dance togather in marraige?? i mean in free mixing???
i apologise from my pakistani brothers and sisters ... it is not for you but for those who do this...
wassalam
dhakiyya
19-05-08, 06:34 PM
salamz...does anyone have any info which clearly states the wrong-ness in looking at caste before choosing a partner??
you don't need info saying that caste is wrong........
.......... can you find anywhere in the Qur'an or Sunnah, anything at all that mentions the caste system and following it?
No.
The absence of evidence for the caste system is reason enough not to follow it.
If thats not enough though, there are hadeeths which state that piety is the number one consideration for a marriage partner. Are they a devout, practicing Muslim? That is what Muslims should consider in potential marraige partners
Also, nationalism is forbidden in Islam. If nationalism is forbidden how can the caste system be advocated?
If evidence from Qur'an and Sunnah is not enough, we can move on to what is obvious without looking at Qur'an and Sunnah.
The caste system is a HINDU concept. You can read all about it in the teachings of Hinduism. You should also note that the only non Hindus that practice it are people whose ancestors at one time were Hindus. The reason for this is because when their ancestors became Muslim (in the case of Muslims who follow the caste system) they didn't reject the caste system as they should have, and a lack of education about what Islam teaches about the caste system has allowed it to remain. This is the only reason you find Muslims who still buy into the caste system.
Even more obviously - the caste system is a complex system designed to keep the rich and priveliged rich and privaleged, and the poor and downtrodden poor and downtrodden. Whilst, thankfully, the Muslims that kept the caste system did manage to reject the worst excesses of it such as the absolutely despicable treatment of the "dalit" class who are considered sub human and considered to "contaminate" high class people even if their shadow falls on them..... how on earth, how on Allah's green earth, does anyone think that is a part of Islam when the Qur'an is so clear about fighting to end oppression until there is no more oppression?
dhakiyya
19-05-08, 06:41 PM
Regarding the last paragraph in my last post... and taking MMS's last comment into consideration, I don't mean to say that Muslims that follow the caste system are oppressors if they are following the caste system in name only........ however even doing this they are giving the system validity when it absolutely should not be. And choosing not to marry someone for their caste is actually doing a fair bit more than giving it validity.... the caste system is a complex apartheid system..... if someone in South Africa said they only want to marry another person who is the same classification as them (black, white, coloured) - even though the apartied system has been abolished we would still consider that dispicable. Same with the caste system.
Overseer
19-05-08, 06:49 PM
I find it surprising the number of elements within Hinduism that have found their way into Islam, especially with regards Pakistani Muslims.
It worries me that in this day and age, certain Muslims still place great emphasis on aspects such as caste when it contradicts the way of the Prophet (pbuh). Perhaps this is what happens when people are uneducated in Islamic principles and history.
dhakiyya
19-05-08, 07:02 PM
To be fair, I don't think its just pakistanis and hinduism - you get pre Islamic cultural aspects creeping into Islam in other places too. Its because when people accept Islam, its very hard to reject all the unislamic aspects of the culture/religion that they were before, because from within the culture its hard to see what is wrong with thee. So they find ways to get around what Islam is actually saying and claim things are okay when they are not.
This is why "modernising" (which ought to be called "westernising") of Islam needs to be vehemently opposed. Cause its exactly the same thing.... just its happening now rather than a few hundred years ago.
/\ i agree, tsk tsk angel* and unique1, i am soo disappointed in you both astaghfirullah :outta:
:rubeyes: whaaaat?!:
was just messing around - sorry if it went abit 2 far and seemed like i was in2 the whole thing..:embar:
On a more serious note, this whole 'caste system' is complete and utter rubbish and any1 whose not so immeresed in tradition shuld be able 2 c it a mile away for being just that-rubbish.
Naz2007
19-05-08, 10:34 PM
to be honest i think pakistani's pik n choose what they like about islam and then the rest of islam for then comes from culture.
RazielTemp
19-05-08, 11:06 PM
to be honest i think pakistani's pik n choose what they like about islam and then the rest of islam for then comes from culture.
this is the case with some other asians as well ...
may Alllah Ta'ala save us from being among the Hypocrites,
Ameen!
:jkk:
Syed Shoaib
19-05-08, 11:24 PM
im syed, but i may as well be arain, just as Bulleh shah refused his "caste" of syed in his poetry. this kind of thinking is pathetic.
and yeah im Pakistani by origin.
c0508310
20-05-08, 03:44 AM
this is the case with some other asians as well ...
may Alllah Ta'ala save us from being among the Hypocrites,
Ameen!
:jkk:
if u r european or an american u cannt blame asians until u have a strong prove! do think before speaking!
c0508310
20-05-08, 03:48 AM
I hope you were all joking about mochi's etc!! Coz that is just not right :0: Makes me grateful that I was born here and never lived there/got into that mindset. Pakistanis are pakistanis!! And pakistanis are just people, remember; the arab isn't superior to the non-arab :mad:
hiking u r perfectly right!i m borned here and lives here and im proud to be pakistan rather than those who only has considered pakistan as top insulted country!
c0508310
20-05-08, 04:06 AM
assalam alaikum
i want to confess some thing..
i like pakistani people because they are brave but i hate them because they are the most ignorant 1 in deen.. all bida in their culture and home but not all are 1..
what kind of culture is this who asks bride to take with her all dowery???
why pakistani people discriminates??
and why they do dance togather in marraige?? i mean in free mixing???
i apologise from my pakistani brothers and sisters ... it is not for you but for those who do this...
wassalam
bro,first tell me have u ever visited pakistan??????????
i must say there are still many people who are living there life according to islam!and many are there who are doing the marriages according to islamic tradition!
regarding dowery, i'l say only one thing, duaghters are the most beloved of mothers and its their wish to give their daughter as many as they can give, as then they wont be giving as her anything as she wil be in her new home and wil be provided by every thing by her husband!
thirdly, u said they discriminates????????????its pakistanis or those UK ,AMERICAN, people who think they are superior?????????jus give an answer of this?if u have?
forthly,about dancing!its the western people who comes here and spread the germs of their disgusting culture!
hope im clear???
wassalam,mishi!
bro,first tell me have u ever visited pakistan??????????
i must say there are still many people who are living there life according to islam!and many are there who are doing the marriages according to islamic tradition!
regarding dowery, i'l say only one thing, duaghters are the most beloved of mothers and its their wish to give their daughter as many as they can give, as then they wont be giving as her anything as she wil be in her new home and wil be provided by every thing by her husband!
thirdly, u said they discriminates????????????its pakistanis or those UK ,AMERICAN, people who think they are superior?????????jus give an answer of this?if u have?
forthly,about dancing!its the western people who comes here and spread the germs of their disgusting culture!
hope im clear???
wassalam,mishi!
assalam alaikum
firstly i am sister
i have visited karachi only 1 time and i really liked pakistan and pakistani people.
i have seen only few people who live according to islam but they still have some hindu culture.
and regarding dowery..FATIMAH(ra) the daughter of the 2 world was also beloved to him(peace be upon him) but he gave very little things to her when she married.. secondly it is the hindu culture.. and i said that "what kind of culture is this who asks bride to take with her all dowery???"
i mean to say that i saw and heard that groom family asks bride to bring every thing with her including "fan and plates"
so what kind of people they are???
are they poor people??? don't they shy to ask some and especially from bride??
isn't its great thing that a father is giving her daughter to him????
they don't have bed to let bride sleep??? don't have plates to let bride eat???
and about discrimination... pakistani are the worst in discriminating...i have heard that pakistani hates bangali and they treat they worstly...
i went to some bangali marraige.. they were my sister's friend.. and pakistani were also among them.. they were making fun of their wedding ..
i have heard that pakistani people says that the 1 who eats fish are bangali... does that means i love fish and i became bangali???
emirati loves fish so does that means we are bangali people???
there are 4 province in pakistan and all people of 4 province discriminates among each other...
i know more about pakistan and the people of pakistan
and about dacing in freemixing wedding... its not driven out by western.. it is driven about by hindus....pakistan want to do what india want to do.... am i right???
jazakALLAH khair
i have seen only few people who live according to islam but they still have some hindu culture.
and about discrimination... pakistani are the worst in discriminating...i have heard that pakistani hates bangali and they treat they worstly...
and about dacing in freemixing wedding... its not driven out by western.. it is driven about by hindus....pakistan want to do what india want to do.... am i right???
jazakALLAH khair
WS, You're absolutely right.
Um_yusuf
21-05-08, 08:14 PM
assalam alaikum
firstly i am sister
i have visited karachi only 1 time and i really liked pakistan and pakistani people.
i have seen only few people who live according to islam but they still have some hindu culture.
and regarding dowery..FATIMAH(ra) the daughter of the 2 world was also beloved to him(peace be upon him) but he gave very little things to her when she married.. secondly it is the hindu culture.. and i said that "what kind of culture is this who asks bride to take with her all dowery???"
i mean to say that i saw and heard that groom family asks bride to bring every thing with her including "fan and plates"
so what kind of people they are???
are they poor people??? don't they shy to ask some and especially from bride??
isn't its great thing that a father is giving her daughter to him????
they don't have bed to let bride sleep??? don't have plates to let bride eat???
and about discrimination... pakistani are the worst in discriminating...i have heard that pakistani hates bangali and they treat they worstly...
i went to some bangali marraige.. they were my sister's friend.. and pakistani were also among them.. they were making fun of their wedding ..
i have heard that pakistani people says that the 1 who eats fish are bangali... does that means i love fish and i became bangali???
emirati loves fish so does that means we are bangali people???
there are 4 province in pakistan and all people of 4 province discriminates among each other...
i know more about pakistan and the people of pakistan
and about dacing in freemixing wedding... its not driven out by western.. it is driven about by hindus....pakistan want to do what india want to do.... am i right???
jazakALLAH khair
salaam
your right to an extent sis, but have you seen whats happening in the middle east, theres plenty of 'free mixing' in weddings. The muslims there may not be copying bollywood but they are certainly into hollywood films and western music, some of the music artists put the americans to shame
salaam
salaam
your right to an extent sis, but have you seen whats happening in the middle east, theres plenty of 'free mixing' in weddings. The muslims there may not be copying bollywood but they are certainly into hollywood films and western music, some of the music artists put the americans to shame
salaam
walaikum assalam
sister
leave middle east.. its worst then any muslim country..
but the country which is called as CASTLE OF ISLAM is getting worse..
there is very veruy very few family who do free mixing in wedding..i can tell you that you will find it in kuwait.. but not in U.A.E..
there are no middle eastern people in hollywood but they are in their own songs belly dancing..
i have heard lot of worst things form non-arabs about middle east or so called "dubai".
Peacenik
24-05-08, 03:59 PM
Didn't this whole caste (in the Indo/Pak. region) issue arise from the Hindus?
My, how 'good' we are to carry on that tradition... :cool:
Didn't this whole caste (in the Indo/Pak. region) issue arise from the Hindus?
My, how 'good' we are to carry on that tradition... :cool:
IMO, Hindus are just the modern day equivalent of pre Islamic Arab polytheists that Nabi (saw) had to deal with. PreIslamic Arabs were also into this tribalism rubbish and it was Islam that elevated the people into something better. Now those same Muslim communities are often veering away from their Islamic heritage to go back to that preIslamic mentality.
pshht id never marry a chaudry :vomit: :outta:
:rubeyes: err i am JATT chaudry and i never said yes so :p
but on a more serious note my parents are well kool when it comes to this issue. they just say that a girl should be kind hearted and a good muslima. i think she should be rich :D any rich sisters??? :D
wasalam
The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (partisanship and party-spirit), or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."
the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "Indeed Allaah has revealed to me that you should have humility, and that no one should act proudly and oppressively over anyone else, nor should anyone boast over anyone else."
Saheeh Muslim (8/120)
Allah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said
"Let people stop boasting about their forefathers who have died, who are merely fire for the Hell-Fire; or they will certainly be more insignificant with Allaah than the beetle which roles dung with its nose. Allaah has removed from you the party-spirit of the days of jaahiliyyah and the boasting about one's forefathers. Indeed a person is either a pious Believer or a wretched sinner. All of mankind are the children of Aadaam, and Aadam was created from clay."
at-Tirmidhee
Allah ta ala says:
"O mankind! We have created you from male and female and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Indeed the most noble of you with Allaah is the one who has the most taqwaa."
[Surah al-Hujuraat 49:13]
a young man from the Muhaajirs and a young man from the Ansaar quarreled. So the Muhaajir said: "O Muhaajirs! (meaning: rally to my help)" And the Ansaaree said: "O Ansaar!" So the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam heard this and said: "Is it with the call of jaahiliyyah that you are calling out, and I am present amongst you!"
al-Bukhaaree in his Saheeh (8/137)
more here in this thread :up:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147847
:rubeyes: err i am JATT chaudry and i never said yes so :p
but on a more serious note my parents are well kool when it comes to this issue. they just say that a girl should be kind hearted and a good muslima. i think she should be rich :D any rich sisters??? :D
wasalam
:wswrwb: as a man you are the one who must provide for your wife, spending on her food, clothing, housing, and in kindness , if she is rich it will not benefit u in anyway, because she is not obliged to spend anything on you or the household and if she does then it is counted as charity that she gave to her husband ;) and im sure u as a muslim man u wouldnt want to be taking charity from your wife and be missing out on the blessings from Allah ta ala u will receive for providing for her.
RazielTemp
25-05-08, 01:26 PM
salamz...does anyone have any info which clearly states the wrong-ness in looking at caste before choosing a partner??
look up the criteria for choosing a SPouse, in the Hadiths, Caste/Race/ etc are not there,
it is a sickness and therefore rejected,
if the Person of of Good Imaan, Character, able to support his/her Spouse in their relative duties as Mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah, then they aught to get married, a Proposal should not be rejected based on a Racist idea, like caste ...
:jkk:
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