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Salman Al-Farsi
15-04-08, 01:55 PM
Assalam Alaykum Dear brothers and Sisters

We have now decided to have a one standard thread for all Sufi Vs Salafi debates. This will not only make moderating easier but it will also serve as the one stop thread for all references concerning this debate. Furthermore, it will house all the off-topic (Sufi/Salafi) posts in threads not created for that purpose, these posts will be merged into this thread.

This thread will remain here for while, and then moved to the on-going debates section when it is fixed.

From this point onwards, all Sufi vs Salafi debates/discussions/discources will take place here as long as certain general rules are observed. One of the advantage of this thread will be to distinguish fitnah creators from those who sicerely wish to participate in this debate. I along with other moderators will constantly moderate this thread to ensure the basic rules are adhered to.

1. There will be no insulting Scholars.
2. There will be no takfeer done.
3. Excessive sarcasm will not be tolerated.
4. Insulting other users will not be tolerated.
5. Going off-topic
6. Please avoid pasting rather long chunks of text and try to provide a link or summary instead.
7. tba
8. tba
9. tba

If you have any further questions, suggestions or concerns regarding this thread please use the helpdesk facility. Alternatively feel free to PM me or contact any of the other moderators.

JazakAllahu khayr

bint
15-04-08, 01:58 PM
pardon my ignorance but what does tba mean?

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 02:01 PM
:wswrwb:

I assume this will also cover all Salafi vs Ash'ari / Maturidi debates?

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 02:02 PM
I think the title is divisive and misleading.

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 02:02 PM
pardon my ignorance but what does tba mean?



"To be announced" I think.

Fitnah Bolice
15-04-08, 02:05 PM
6. tba has now been announced....no long copy pastes, if there is an article you wish to post/refer to/reference then please read the article yourself and then highlight the main points raised through your own words.

Salman Al-Farsi
15-04-08, 02:07 PM
Basically any point of debate with keywords Sufi and Salafi (inc various spellings and terms) will be entertained here.This may include differences in Aqeedah, minhaj or even fiqh/bid'ah and son on.

bint
15-04-08, 02:07 PM
cool thnx :)

Salman Al-Farsi
15-04-08, 02:10 PM
ok Bismillah....

Hekmaa
15-04-08, 02:12 PM
It is also important to moderate the aspects of the actual people who are presenting their arguement. What i have noticed is some people say "this is the salafi view" and that isnt the salafi view, or they say this is the "sufi is view" and it isnt.

Therefore it will be important to have someone moderate who understands the sufi view and the salafi view, what are issues of difference and what are issues of agreement, otherwise like many times before, the moderators themselves may end up taking sides based on their own leanings.

*asiya*
15-04-08, 02:15 PM
perhaps it would be best if sufis present their own views, and salafis present their own views. having them from the "horses mouth" so to speak would be most benefical and then no room for false misconceptions being spread :up:

Hekmaa
15-04-08, 02:20 PM
perhaps it would be best if sufis present their own views, and salafis present their own views. having them from the "horses mouth" so to speak would be most benefical and then no room for false misconceptions being spread :up:

There in lays the problem, a lot of sufis dont know the sufi position and a lot of salafis dont know the salafi position, but they proudly claim to be "salafi" or "sufi".

abu eeman
15-04-08, 02:22 PM
lets jsut hope peoples intentions are good and not turn this in to a war of words but a well mannerd debate

Salman Al-Farsi
15-04-08, 02:29 PM
Brother Hekmaa I think the real problem is the fact that most people do not actually understand what they themselves subscribe to. And perhaps if we took on board Sis Asiya's suggestion, it would mean what users are dealing with is each other's understanding of matters and perhaps not the matter itself.

The debate itself cannot possibly be narrowed down to Sufi or Salafi due to the fact that there are various brands of each who disgaree within themselves, like the Brelawis, deobandis, whirling derveshes and we also have various different types of salafis. I think it is quiet a broad thread/discussion and it would be quiet impossible to put a red tape around it. The main objective is to spare rest of the forum from these debates and keep them all in one place, because it gets annoying wehn same issues are raised over and over again.

Kas1m
15-04-08, 02:59 PM
What is the main Aqeedah of Salafi and Sufi?

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 03:06 PM
This is for the world heavyweight Championships :D

Nah but seriously id like to ask a question. maybe it could start something.

How do the so called "sufis" justify the weird dancing and twirling that some of them do and claim it to be part of Islam?

Z-Blade
15-04-08, 03:06 PM
:salams,


The main objective is to spare rest of the forum from these debates and keep them all in one place, because it gets annoying wehn same issues are raised over and over again.

Alhamdulillah I couldn't agree me, great idea bro :up:.

BTW, you are trying to say Ashari/Maturidi Aqidah is Sufi? :scratch: So what would we label the Athari Aqidah (that of Imam Ibn Hanbal (Rh))? i.e. Whoever has this Aqidah says we confirm what Allah has said in the Quran and we do not try to interprete what He means when He mentions His hand/rising over the throne etc. and that only Allah knows best what it means. I mean this:

"They refused to make Ta’weel and practised Tafweedh which meant that they consigned the true meanings and modality (how’ness) of these verses pertaining to Hands of Allah (SWT) etc. both to Allah. In summary these said that we don’t want to debate with you as to what these verses mean we simply say, “We believe in them and only Allah (SWT) knows truly what these verses actually mean and since Allah (SWT) & His Rasool (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) remain silent on this, we will also remain silent about them” and we will also not interpret these to mean “Power etc.”….we simply believe in them and remain silent"

Wassalam.

Omar Mukhtar
15-04-08, 03:07 PM
are'nt there different type of sufi's?

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 03:07 PM
If you mean the hadra, there is plenty of writing on it by scholars.. have you read any?

BTW I think this thread was inititally made to split off-topic arguing from other threads.. not to actully rehash the debates again.

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 03:10 PM
If you mean the hadra, there is plenty of writing on it by scholars.. have you read any?

BTW I think this thread was inititally made to split off-topic arguing from other threads.. not to actully rehash the debates again.

Oh sorry my bad. btw do you have any links to some of the articles that these scholars have written with regards to the hadrah? Jazakallah Khair in advance.

stranger101
15-04-08, 03:25 PM
Oh sorry my bad. btw do you have any links to some of the articles that these scholars have written with regards to the hadrah? Jazakallah Khair in advance.

Prohibited forms of Dhikr
Shaykh `Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda

Translated by A. Haque*

http://attalib.blogspot.com/

Kas1m
15-04-08, 03:38 PM
What is the main Aqeedah of Salafi and Sufi?


Ill answer that. First the Sufi Aqeedah is that without Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him Islam was incomplete and would not have spread and he is most beloved Prophet to Allah that we send Durood upon him in Salah.
Now the Salafi Aqeedah is that whilst praying salah the Tasawwur of Prophet Muhammed peace be upon is worse than a donkey.
This was said by Shaikh Saad Asa'ad of Faislabad in a lecture in glasgow.

MMS
15-04-08, 03:42 PM
lol but what about the sufis that are salafis in aqeedah :smack:

i don't think this thread is going to work, especially @ insulting scholars, people on here are not mature enough :nono:

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 03:44 PM
no cut and paste, if you cant say it, you shouldnt spread it,

not even one sentence, just say what you mean and mean what you say

Phoenix CG
15-04-08, 03:46 PM
well this is going to get closed pretty soon, simply because people here aren't capable of debate without slandering and hurling insults. Besides it's not for nobodies to "debate" this because they people here don't know enough, as in, they will claim to know but in reality they sit and read pdfs and derive there own interpretations.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 03:46 PM
i dont think anyone should ever identify themselves as salafi or sufi, but just muslim

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 03:46 PM
no cut and paste, if you cant say it, you shouldnt spread it,

not even one sentence, just say what you mean and mean what you say
Isn't this part of the problem though.. noone is interested in actually researching reading or learning from ulema.. they just wanna say what they want.

Laymen debates are of little value.. our own words are of little value, apart from which side of the scale they will be weighed up on on the day of reckoning.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 03:52 PM
no cut and paste, if you cant say it, you shouldnt spread it,

not even one sentence, just say what you mean and mean what you say

isnt it better to hear from the scholer's then our own word's.

Omar Mukhtar
15-04-08, 03:57 PM
Who's gonna read all that, we might as well google it ourselves.

why don't you read it and sumarize it for us bro.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 03:58 PM
rarely do we read long posts, even from scholars

post a link if you wish, but what is the need (in the course of a debate) to paste large articles, for a people who will not read it

this is different from regular posts, which we may want to use to refer

this is just my opinion, take it or leave it

dhak1yya
15-04-08, 04:00 PM
can we have another rule? that is that people engaging in this debate need to find out for themselves alittle about what sufis and salafis actually think/believe/do before jumping in with size 24 welly boots and asking the other lot why do they think/believe/do this thing that they saw on a utube video or read about on www dot i hate muslims who don't agree with me because i'm an idiot dot com or any dubious source which they never bothered to check

i'm hoping inshaAllah that there will be enough intelligent and informed posts on this thread for users to be able to avoid such posts just by reading the thread inshaAllah

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 04:02 PM
rarely do we read long posts, even from scholars

post a link if you wish, but what is the need (in the course of a debate) to paste large articles, for a people who will not read it

this is different from regular posts, which we may want to use to refer

this is just my opinion, take it or leave it
I agree with that point.. links are better.. and people would be better off posting links if the copy paste is soooooooooooo long that you have to scroll ages past is to get to the next post.

Saudi Prince
15-04-08, 04:16 PM
can we have another rule? that is that people engaging in this debate need to find out for themselves alittle about what sufis and salafis actually think/believe/do before jumping in with size 24 welly boots and asking the other lot why do they think/believe/do this thing that they saw on a utube video or read about on www dot i hate muslims who don't agree with me because i'm an idiot dot com or any dubious source which they never bothered to check

i'm hoping inshaAllah that there will be enough intelligent and informed posts on this thread for users to be able to avoid such posts just by reading the thread inshaAllah


The mods must completely wipe out any cut and paste! It must go straight away to the garbage bin and the one who pastes it should immediately be infracted! Let this thread expose those who have absolutely no clue of what they are talking about.

If anyone pretends to have knowledge then let them write it themselves but if all they know is cut and paste then let them stay out of it.

Please remove those cut and paste posts.

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 04:20 PM
Is it possible to only let sensible people who are actually willing to debate, post in the thread? As opposed to people who love name-calling etc.

(*_Hamzah
15-04-08, 04:30 PM
This is funny, on one hand many Sufi originations are being promoted in Europe & America to counter punch extremism, but the real indented target is Salafism , whist the kingdom oil sheikhs are doing their utmost to root out Sufism through it loosely affiliated salafis publication. Another contrast is how the Fir’aun in central Asia are promoting a pacified Sufism to it’s already down trodden on people, this kind of "spiritual" Sufism poses no threat to there thrown, I wont mention what a sordid bunch of Salafi leaders we have in Saudi.

*asiya*
15-04-08, 04:41 PM
i understand that this thread is for sufis and salafis to discuss their beliefs not to just slag ppl off. can we not limit this to sufis presenting their beliefs and salafis presenting theirs, anyone else whoose not of them should just stay out of it, cos its all just hearsay so far, and non salafis are answering what they think or heard someone say that salafis beleive and brelwis are answering what sufis believe , so if your a sufi say so, if ur a salafi say so, and if ur a brelwi deobandi or anyone else then say so and discuss away.

akhi salman made the purpose and rules very clear. so for claritys sake state your claim

ie:

i am a ******** <- insert what "brand" of muslim u are here ( sufi, salafi etc )

i beleive ********* <- insert your aqeedah ( creed) here

because of ********* <- insert your daleel ( evidence) here

and have your discussions insha Allah :up:

al-ghazalli
15-04-08, 04:44 PM
Also a warning to our brothers & sisters that such talk is useless and spirtually draining. One could do so much better if they were to engage in dhikr, recite the Qur`an or study fiqh.

Our noble Sahaba Syedina Umar (radhiya Allahu ‘anhu) warned us and said; “The more one speaks, the more sins he commits, the more sins one commits the further in the fire of hell he will be.”

aboosait
15-04-08, 04:45 PM
The mods must completely wipe out any cut and paste!

Except the verses, hadith and their meanings from authentic scholars.


It must go straight away to the garbage bin and the one who pastes it should immediately be infracted!

Are the mods listening?


Let this thread expose those who have absolutely no clue of what they are talking about.

They have exposed themselves in other threads as well. The same material is being CP'd by them over and over again filling pages after pages, but no one seems to be bothered.

For the same CP naturally one would give the same reply. my repliesconsidered repetition and deleted and I got a few infractions.

A few hours ago, I started replying to several such CPs by the same person in a particular thread. When I was replying to the fourth or the fifth post FULLY PREPARED FOR INFRACTIONS, TO MY SURPRISE the entire thread vanished from the site.


If anyone pretends to have knowledge then let them write it themselves but if all they know is cut and paste then let them stay out of it.

Cut and paste from other discussion forums should be completely banned.


Please remove those cut and paste posts.

I increased the font just to draw the attention of the mods. No offence intended.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 04:55 PM
Also a warning to our brothers & sisters that such talk is useless and spirtually draining. One could do so much better if they were to engage in dhikr, recite the Qur`an or study fiqh.

Our noble Sahaba Syedina Umar (radhiya Allahu ‘anhu) warned us and said; “The more one speaks, the more sins he commits, the more sins one commits the further in the fire of hell he will be.”


like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb9lHjsYE74

aboosait
15-04-08, 04:55 PM
Also a warning to our brothers & sisters that such talk is useless and spirtually draining.........

To which post is this reply?

Kindly quote.

:jkk:

:salams

Saudi Prince
15-04-08, 05:03 PM
Also a warning to our brothers & sisters that such talk is useless and spirtually draining. One could do so much better if they were to engage in dhikr, recite the Qur`an or study fiqh.

Our noble Sahaba Syedina Umar (radhiya Allahu ‘anhu) warned us and said; “The more one speaks, the more sins he commits, the more sins one commits the further in the fire of hell he will be.”

I completely agree with you! People just cut and paste with their eyes and minds closed! They don't even know what they're talking about. They just go to some suspesious websites and copy utter lies and accuse the other side of believing in such utter nonesense.

aboosait
15-04-08, 05:06 PM
..............This was said by Shaikh Saad Asa'ad of Faislabad in a lecture in glasgow.

I athink Faislabad is in Pakistan.

But the name Shaikh Saad Asa'ad idoesnt sound Pakistani.

Anyway can you prove your allegation?

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 05:07 PM
I wonder, will this thread increase our sense of brotherhood or decrease it?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167337

Z-Blade
15-04-08, 05:09 PM
Also a warning to our brothers & sisters that such talk is useless and spirtually draining. One could do so much better if they were to engage in dhikr, recite the Qur`an or study fiqh.

Our noble Sahaba Syedina Umar (radhiya Allahu ‘anhu) warned us and said; “The more one speaks, the more sins he commits, the more sins one commits the further in the fire of hell he will be.”

:salams,

Yep people could actually benefit if they listened/read with an open mind instead of trying to look at the negatives and refute every little minor point. It's like if I was to read the Quran and had the intention of finding mistakes in there while ignoring everything else - all the good that is in there, my mind is bound to lead me to a false conclusion and that is how kufar are:

2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

2:26
إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يَسْتَحْيِي أَن يَضْرِبَ مَثَلاً مَّا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ فَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَيَقُولُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَـذَا مَثَلاً يُضِلُّ بِهِ كَثِيراً وَيَهْدِي بِهِ كَثِيراً وَمَا يُضِلُّ بِهِ إِلاَّ الْفَاسِقِينَ
Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allah intend by this parable?" By it, He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are rebellious.

Close mindedness and pride are qualities of a kafir, may Allah help us and guide us, Ameen.

Wassalam.

aboosait
15-04-08, 05:12 PM
I wonder, will this thread increase our sense of brotherhood or decrease it?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167337

That link took me here:



aboosait, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

aboosait
15-04-08, 05:22 PM
isnt it better to hear from the scholer's then our own word's.

why don't you read it and sumarize it for us bro.

S786, please take note of that advise.

aboosait
15-04-08, 05:45 PM
Prohibited forms of Dhikr
Shaykh `Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda

Translated by A. Haque*

http://attalib.blogspot.com/

That link takes you to an article entitled "Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb: Bad Ruler or Bad History?"

What has Aurangazeb to do with the on going discussion?

aboosait
15-04-08, 05:48 PM
lol but what about the sufis that are salafis in aqeedah :smack:



That will be called COCKTAIL AQIDAH.

aboosait
15-04-08, 06:13 PM
i dont think anyone should ever identify themselves as salafi or sufi, but just muslim

That will be possible only if the Aqidah is that of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who believes that Allah is One in His Essence, His Attributes and His Acts.

This unity (Tawheed) can be viewed from the perspectives of:


Unity of Lordship

Unity of Worship

Unity of His Names and His Attributes

Unity in the following the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him


The opposite of Tawhid is expressed by the Arabic term Shirk (polytheism), derived from the root Sh-r-k which conveys the notion of “sharing” or “partnerships.”

This was the firm belief of the earliest Muslims known as the SALAF.

Thus even today whoever has their belief (eeman) similar to that of the Salaf are called Salafi to distinguish them from those Muslims who have corrupt and deviant belief.

al faqeer
15-04-08, 07:49 PM
Can you show me from the Prophet PBUH and the sahaaba and the Salaf where they preached 3 Tawheeds ? Categorized .

Tajseem is another word that pops up . Harsh and Hard hardheartedness spread across the ummah , Holier than thou attitudes and Takabur are widespread , Talfeeq is widespread cause they believe you should not follow a single Madhab even though every scholar in islam did . they drifted Away from the prophets Household r.a. and make sunnis who love and respect them like shia , They made Saheeh Hadeeth dhaeef and hey think everything that was not part of the First century Hijrah as Bida.

But they are muslims like other muslims who strive to Implement Allah SWT laws , who try to stay away from what he SWT prohibited . but their extreme stance on many issues has repelled many muslims away from them .

No muslim sect is perfect Keep that in mind , Sufis , Salafis , Ddeobandis , Barelwis whatever man made name u can think of .

shukran

Kas1m
15-04-08, 07:52 PM
I athink Faislabad is in Pakistan.

But the name Shaikh Saad Asa'ad idoesnt sound Pakistani.

Anyway can you prove your allegation?

i have got a recording for it.

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 08:19 PM
It is a common misunderstanding that salafis say you should not follow a madhab. Almost every single student of knowledge whom people call salafi, that i have met, have said that there is absolulely nothing wrong with following a madhab, the problem comes when people take weak hadith from a madhab over a strong hadith, when people idolise their imams like they are infallible, and when the opinions of the imams go against the vast majority of the other imams.

now i follow the hanafi fiqh and the students of knowledge have advised me to follow it especially for the laymen who do not have as much time as the students of knowledge to learn the deen, the only problem arises is when people blanket out everything else and only follow their desired school.

i hope this clears this up. Correct me if im wrong Inshallah.

yazooney
15-04-08, 08:22 PM
As a follower of a well known "sufi" tareeqa I have been very concerned about what I am seeing and hence been doing a lot of reading about sufism and salifism. Anyway, after much thinking I have come up with my first conclusion on the matter:

"There are bad ideologies/practices found in certain salafi and sufi groups (or at least these groups stem from salafi or sufi ideology). However, while salafi groups which go to the extreme end up committing sin (e.g. calling muslims kuffar, suicide bombers), deviant sufi groups can lead to actions shikr, bid'ah and sin."

I believe that following a sufi path is one of the best ways of following Islam (not going into detail why). However, these days, and in the western climate, it would be wiser to follow the salafi ideology. Why? Because many Sufi groups have deviated making a NEW brand of Sufism for the west. Hence, I would be careful these days with sufism. I believe the Sufism of 100 years ago is slowly being replaced with a very deviated version (again, not going to go into detail).

As for myself (i.e. following a "sufi" tareeqa) , lets not go there. Maybe later, but for now I have lots of questions I need to answer for myself first.

As a brother or sister said earlier, lets not label ourselves as "the sufi" or "the salafi" but call ourselves muslim first. Then we can state these kind of things.

Ibn Sina
15-04-08, 09:09 PM
:1popcorn:

Umm_Hanzalah
15-04-08, 09:14 PM
As a follower of a well known "sufi" tareeqa I have been very concerned about what I am seeing and hence been doing a lot of reading about sufism and salifism. Anyway, after much thinking I have come up with my first conclusion on the matter:

"There are bad ideologies/practices found in certain salafi and sufi groups (or at least these groups stem from salafi or sufi ideology). However, while salafi groups which go to the extreme end up committing sin (e.g. calling muslims kuffar, suicide bombers), deviant sufi groups can lead to actions shikr, bid'ah and sin."

I believe that following a sufi path is one of the best ways of following Islam (not going into detail why). However, these days, and in the western climate, it would be wiser to follow the salafi ideology. Why? Because many Sufi groups have deviated making a NEW brand of Sufism for the west. Hence, I would be careful these days with sufism. I believe the Sufism of 100 years ago is slowly being replaced with a very deviated version (again, not going to go into detail).

As for myself (i.e. following a "sufi" tareeqa) , lets not go there. Maybe later, but for now I have lots of questions I need to answer for myself first.

As a brother or sister said earlier, lets not label ourselves as "the sufi" or "the salafi" but call ourselves muslim first. Then we can state these kind of things.

I can see where you are coming from.

I was actually more in contact with salafis when I first started out learning about the deen. But there are questions that remain unresolved for me so I quit calling myself salafi, it just seemed so sectarian. I don't follow a madhab because I don't see the why only one should be followed, but I'm not against anyone who does.

I would never call myself sufi either because like you said, people, especially in the West are using it to water down Islam and I think it might not be limited to just the West either. Why is it that prince charles praises the sufis, and why do certain Kaafirs/non-Muslims praise sufism? Says a lot doesn't it?

So I'm happy to call myself Muslim, though I like the manners of the sufis and the purpose in trying to stick to evidences by some of the salafis.

Also, Allah tells us to call ourselves Muslims in the Quran, don't see why it has to be anything else.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 09:15 PM
That will be possible only if the Aqidah is that of a Muslim.

A Muslim is one who believes that Allah is One in His Essence, His Attributes and His Acts.

This unity (Tawheed) can be viewed from the perspectives of:


Unity of Lordship
Unity of Worship
Unity of His Names and His Attributes
Unity in the following the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him


The opposite of Tawhid is expressed by the Arabic term Shirk (polytheism), derived from the root Sh-r-k which conveys the notion of “sharing” or “partnerships.”

This was the firm belief of the earliest Muslims known as the SALAF.

Thus even today whoever has their belief (eeman) similar to that of the Salaf are called Salafi to distinguish them from those Muslims who have corrupt and deviant belief.so if a muslim is guilty of shirk, he is no longer a muslim, plain and simple

so instead of adding to the name that Allah has called us, which i am sure is a bida, why dont you just reassure yourself and those around you what is and what isnt islam and leave off the labels???

Umm 'Umarah
15-04-08, 09:25 PM
If you mean the hadra, there is plenty of writing on it by scholars.. have you read any?

.

CW, regarding hadra, are any of these writings by classical scholars? please can you provide names and links to these writings. :jkk:

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 09:26 PM
:salams
i think it a good debate for those of us who are'nt going to start insulting each other. But, sometimes all these talks about salafi / sufi or whatever just has a negative effect on the ummah. i personally would'nt label myself as anything except a muslim.
what we have to remember is, we are living in a time of extremism
...and i dont been terorism :rolleyes:. i mean like, for example as someone has already metioned when a person takes thier madhab to an extreme...and then theres is the extreme of ignoring the 4 madhabs...stuff like that, its best for us to remain as neutral as possible.
in terms of sufism, im not going to lie - i dont know much. i think this is because i've seen too much of the extreme sufism....stuff like all these saints and visiting masajid of people who where close to Allah..and then the whole hadrah thing.

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 09:28 PM
It is a common misunderstanding that salafis say you should not follow a madhab. Almost every single student of knowledge whom people call salafi, that i have met, have said that there is absolulely nothing wrong with following a madhab, the problem comes when people take weak hadith from a madhab over a strong hadith, when people idolise their imams like they are infallible, and when the opinions of the imams go against the vast majority of the other imams.

now i follow the hanafi fiqh and the students of knowledge have advised me to follow it especially for the laymen who do not have as much time as the students of knowledge to learn the deen, the only problem arises is when people blanket out everything else and only follow their desired school.

i hope this clears this up. Correct me if im wrong Inshallah.

So if you are a Salafi, and you also follow a madhab, and the Salafi ulama give a fatwa which goes against that which the madhahib rule what do you do?

For example, all four madhahib say that a person who intentionally misses a Salah must make Qadha for it. But some Salafi ulama say that there is no Qadah. So what to do?

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 09:39 PM
So if you are a Salafi, and you also follow a madhab, and the Salafi ulama give a fatwa which goes against that which the madhahib rule what do you do?

For example, all four madhahib say that a person who intentionally misses a Salah must make Qadha for it. But some Salafi ulama say that there is no Qadah. So what to do?

Blud why you asking me like im some Sheikhul Hadith :rotfl:

Abu Muslim
15-04-08, 09:40 PM
*grabs popcorn*

Muslims on Ummah.com actually debating about Islam *shock*

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 09:42 PM
So if you are a Salafi, and you also follow a madhab, and the Salafi ulama give a fatwa which goes against that which the madhahib rule what do you do?

For example, all four madhahib say that a person who intentionally misses a Salah must make Qadha for it. But some Salafi ulama say that there is no Qadah. So what to do?
:salams
but what if the daleel for no Qadha is stronger.(btw...im not saying it is or isnt) because, all four imams of all four madhabs said something along the lines of ...'when a hadith is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhab'
'when i say soemthing contradicting the book of Allah :Swt: or what is narrated from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then ignore my saying'
- that what said by imam Abu Hanifa rahimahuallah.
imam Shaafi'a rahimahuallah said ' if you see me saying something, and contrary to it is authentically reported from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then know my intelligence has departed'
so, if the daleel is stronger...is it then not upon us to follow that...Allah knows best.

Ibn Khattab
15-04-08, 09:43 PM
nah for real thats the bit im trying to work out.

From what i gather so far, you follow your madhab if the evidence for it is strong, if its based on weak hadith and the vast majority of ulema or imams have another opinion, then you follow that opinion. correct me if im wrong.

E.g. there are 2 strong evidences for whether you should raise your hands after ruku, both are perfectly valid so you follow the one according to your madhab.

Thats what ive gathered and Allah Knows Best.

Abu Muslim
15-04-08, 09:44 PM
Can you show me from the Prophet PBUH and the sahaaba and the Salaf where they preached 3 Tawheeds ?

It is one tawheed categorised for EASIER understanding. The tawheed of the Prophet SAW and the sahaba and the salaf is the same but it was categorised later simply for easier understanding. Tawheed al Uluhiyah, Tawheed al Rubibiyah and Tawheed al Asmaa was Sifaat is all one tawheed. And ahlus sunnah all believe in this same tawheed whether they choose to categorise it or not. And Allah knows best.

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 09:50 PM
:salams
but what if the daleel for no Qadha is stronger.(btw...im not saying it is or isnt) because, all four imams of all four madhabs said something along the lines of ...'when a hadith is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhab'
'when i say soemthing contradicting the book of Allah :Swt: or what is narrated from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then ignore my saying'
- that what said by imam Abu Hanifa rahimahuallah.
imam Shaafi'a rahimahuallah said ' if you see me saying something, and contrary to it is authentically reported from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then know my intelligence has departed'
so, if the daleel is stronger...is it then not upon us to follow that...Allah knows best.



This is the problem IMO. There is no way of knowing which of two differing opinions is stronger. This is for the majority of cases. Only in a few rare cases would it be otherwise. Do you think all the ulama of a certain madhahib would base their view on evidence which is clearly weak? Rather if they give a ruling it is because they feel that is the strongest view.

Another point, different madhabs follow different Usuli principles. Not stronger or weaker, simply different.

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 10:02 PM
This is the problem IMO. There is no way of knowing which of two differing opinions is stronger. This is for the majority of cases. Only in a few rare cases would it be otherwise. Do you think all the ulama of a certain madhahib would base their view on evidence which is clearly weak? Rather if they give a ruling it is because they feel that is the strongest view.

Another point, different madhabs follow different Usuli principles. Not stronger or weaker, simply different.
:salams
no no...im not saying different madhabs base their principles on weak evidence and others on strong evidence.
look, i dont want to go into this...cause people start getting offended..and thats not my intention.
but think about it like this..yes, all four imams of the madhabs where extremly knowledgable masha'Allah ..but they are human. they may not have come across a certain hadith for whatever reason...they didnt have hadith softwares and databases. but, by taking another opinion, which is not from your madhab because the daleel is stronger, doesnt mean your going against the imam of a madhab or denying their intelligence and knoweledge of the deen.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:04 PM
ok, lets see who is a sufi and who is a salafi

play a chant

those who get up and start dancing are the sufis

those who run out of the room screaming bida bida bida are salafi

and those who just laugh at how muslims can distort islam are the normal muslims

Abu Muslim
15-04-08, 10:09 PM
ok, lets see who is a sufi and who is a salafi

play a chant

those who get up and start dancing are the sufis

those who run out of the room screaming bida bida bida are salafi

and those who just laugh at how muslims can distort islam are the normal muslims

And those who refuse to sit on the chair to watch this cos allegedly the Prophet SAW is sitting there are brewli

And those who decide to not get into this debate and make intention for 40 days instead are tableeghi

And those who get up and hit themselves are shia

*outta*

p.s this name calling isnt nice. Muslims for life.

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 10:10 PM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn192/rededison/ThreadDirection.jpg

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:11 PM
and those who ask, whats wrong with dancing, are modernists

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 10:13 PM
ok, lets see who is a sufi and who is a salafi

play a chant

those who get up and start dancing are the sufis

those who run out of the room screaming bida bida bida are salafi

and those who just laugh at how muslims can distort islam are the normal muslims
:salams
please dont start this rubbish name calling..
can we get back to the topic.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:16 PM
rubbish?
me?
never

i think debating salafi sufi is an important step in the unification of muslims and world peace

after we complete this, we can go on to shia sunni, and then modernist radical, pacifist jihadi, arab ajami, born converted, and so forth

Umm 'Umarah
15-04-08, 10:17 PM
What if you're a whirling dervish that shouts bid'ah bid'ah bid'ah!?

Salman Al-Farsi
15-04-08, 10:17 PM
Let's put these discussions in perspective by adding structure to it.

I think this discussion of hadrah is an important one because I've seen many people (incl me) often accuse Soufis of singing and dancing. Sometimes this is done almost in derogatory or mick taking way (I don't do this), which can be offensive to those who practice this as form of spirituality. So perhaps the opinions followed by those people who practice this can be explained to those who consider it illegal. Infact, I had quiet a good discussion about this matter with br al-Ghazali and we reached a good conclusion elsewhere, and I found the discussion quiet healthy and fruitful.

And then we can move on to whether the salafis really do not follow a madhab or do they actually follow a madhab and why not?

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 10:18 PM
:salams
arab ajami???....actually dont tell me.
back to the topic people!!!!!

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:20 PM
What if you're a whirling dervish that shouts bid'ah bid'ah bid'ah!?

then you are between lost and confused

Fitnah Bolice
15-04-08, 10:21 PM
This is the problem IMO. There is no way of knowing which of two differing opinions is stronger. This is for the majority of cases. Only in a few rare cases would it be otherwise. Do you think all the ulama of a certain madhahib would base their view on evidence which is clearly weak? Rather if they give a ruling it is because they feel that is the strongest view.

Another point, different madhabs follow different Usuli principles. Not stronger or weaker, simply different.

The scholars who have studied fiqh will be able to tell us which is the stronger opinion, that is how we know. The imams of the madhaibs based their views on the evidence that was available at the time when they derived their rulings, not because it was weak or strong.

Anyway this debate is primarily to do with the aqeedah of both these movements and not entirely concerned with fiqhi issues.

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:23 PM
today i was called, more salafi than the salafis

no one has ever said anything nicer

Chained_Water
15-04-08, 10:31 PM
today i was called, more salafi than the salafis

no one has ever said anything nicer
it wasn't a compliment :smack: ..i didn't mean it in a nice way :outta:

AbuMubarak
15-04-08, 10:37 PM
surely you wouldnt have wanted to hurt my feelings, now would you?

Enigma Dreamer
15-04-08, 10:39 PM
Salafi is from the word salaf meaning past and Salafis are associated with the early Muslims and a 'no add, no subtract' kind of Islam. My question is, where is the origin of Sufis?
Also, I just wanna point out one thing. Some Muslims focus a lot on negligible difference like a brother using prayer beads instead of fingers or the different ways of masah of the head during wuduu etc. I think these are far too neglible differences to whine about.

the_middle_road
15-04-08, 10:51 PM
The scholars who have studied fiqh will be able to tell us which is the stronger opinion, that is how we know. The imams of the madhaibs based their views on the evidence that was available at the time when they derived their rulings, not because it was weak or strong.

Anyway this debate is primarily to do with the aqeedah of both these movements and not entirely concerned with fiqhi issues.

The bolded part of your post seems to indicate that the Imams of the madhahib, when giving a particular verdict might have been unaware of certain adillah. What if this is not the case? What if the dalil is from the Quran and still there are differences of opinion? In situations such as these, how is the weak view distinguished from the strong one? Or is it simply taqlid? Just instead of making taqlid of a particular madhhab, it is taqlid of the latter day scholars?

For example, this issue of Qada salah. There is a clear text on this matter. The Prophet :saw: said: "Man nasiya salaata fal yusalli idhaa dhakarahaa. Laa kaffarata lahaa illaa dhaalik - Whoever forgets to perform salah should perform it when he remembers. There is no kaffarah for it except that."

The ulama of the madhahib understand from this that if a person who only unintentionally misses Salah has to make it up, then it is more incumbent upon the one who misses it intentionally to make it up. This is based on analogy.

Others say that the text does not specifically mention the one who misses it intentionally, only the one who does so unintentionally. So only the one who misses it unintentionally has to make Qada and not the one who does so intentionally.

So the differences of opinion here are not because one group is aware of some dalil which the other is unaware of. They all are aware of the hadith. It is just they understand and interpret it differently.

The point I'm trying to make is there is no such as strong opinion versus weak opinion. Just different ones. Therefore all four madhahib are equally legitimate. The one who chooses to follow one and stick to it, should not be blamed for doing so.

But this was not a good example that I chose to use. Because there is Ijma' on the matter that Qada should be made and so one might argue, based on this that the view which clashes with the Ijma' is a weak one. But I think it illustrates the point that differences of opinion exist because of the different ways in which ulama understand and interpret a text and that differences do not happen because one group is knowledgeable of something that the other is unaware of.

And Allah knows best.

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 11:01 PM
The point I'm trying to make is there is no such as strong opinion versus weak opinion. Just different ones. Therefore all four madhahib are equally legitimate. The one who chooses to follow one and stick to it, should not be blamed for doing so.

:salams
akhy, there are weak daleel and strong daleel.
not all hadiths are authentic as others...and some are not even authentic at all.
and no, there is no blame in choosing a madhab and sticking to it...
but, i have already quoted to you the saying of imam Abu Hanifa and imam Shaafi'i rahimahumallah.
..'when a hadith is found to be saheeh, that is my madhab'
so clearly, these great imams recognised that hadiths can be saheeh or daeef.

chitownmuslim
15-04-08, 11:05 PM
We should define what a Sufi is and what a Salafi is, before even starting.. if by Salafi u mean believing in what the Salaf believed and taking them as an example than every Muslim must be a Salafi, and no Muslim i think would deny the importance I think, no matter what group and/or organization he belongs too.. If by Salafis you mean the classic Imams of Ahlus Sunnah who called Muslims to return to the basics of Islam in times when corrupt groups and idealogies appeared in the Ummah, then no Sufi in the world has a problem with this, becuz we consider them as our Imams, the likes of Imam Ahmad during the time of the Mu'tazilah, etc.. Theres also the Azhari Salafis such as Mohammed Abduh, Rashid Rida, Mohammad Ghazali (the Egyptian Ghazali not Persian), Qaradawi, etc.. i dont really have a problem with them either, even if i disagree with many of things they call for..

The Salafis in the context of this thread are specific group, with a distinct ideology and unique characteristics.. so lets just get this straight before any debate begins that the Salafis in question here are the group with the following characteristic:

-They are also called Wahabbis.

-They claim to follow the "aqida" of the Salaf, while in reality the aqida they follow is that of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) who lived 7 centuries after the time of the Salaf.

-They are notorious for their rejection of certain matters which were considered as differences of fiqh among Muslim scholars such as: making an intention to visit the grave of the Prophet (pbuh), tawassul through an absent or dead person, celebrating the Mawlid, etc.. Scholars of all 4 Sunni madhabs considered all these matters to be pertaining to fiqh while the Wahabbis/Salafis insisted that these were aqida issues, which led them to declare the majority of Muslims as Ahlul Bid'ah and even Mushriks!!

-They reject the traditional Sunni madhabs of aqidah (Ash'ari, Maturidi) and differ on fundamental and main issues of aqida with Ahlus Sunnah, such as their anthropomorphic beliefs in regards to Allah (swt); they claim he has literal hands, shin, face, he sits on the throne, that he is above the throne and touching it, etc..

-They are very well known among Islamic communities worldwide for their extensive declaring of "bid'ah" and "shirk", and also their extensive use of those words in their speech.. many of us have even witnessed one of them yelling bid'ah or shirk to an Imam or otherwise. It is also known that wherever this group appears much fitna among Muslims occurs.

-They are known for their lack of respect of the classic Sunni scholars and personalities.

-They follow a man who appeared in Najd about 200 years ago named Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhab, who declared the entire Islamic ummah as being Mushrik except those who follow him. Him and his followers did Khurooj against the Islamic Ottoman Khilafa, and were therefore officially declared as Khawarij.. they rode around Arabia killing and robbing any village or town which refused to accept their da'wah, vivid descriptions of the massacres that took place on their hands are very well available and can purchased and read. Many Muslims were killed becuz they were declared mushrik by this man.

-Among their most prominent contemporary followers are: Ibn Baz, Uthaymeen, Albani, Tuwajiri, Munnajjid, Bin Laden, Safar Hawali, Abdur Rahman Abdul Khaliq, etc

chitownmuslim
15-04-08, 11:08 PM
Salafi is from the word salaf meaning past and Salafis are associated with the early Muslims and a 'no add, no subtract' kind of Islam. My question is, where is the origin of Sufis?
Also, I just wanna point out one thing. Some Muslims focus a lot on negligible difference like a brother using prayer beads instead of fingers or the different ways of masah of the head during wuduu etc. I think these are far too neglible differences to whine about.

in the context of this thread, Sufis are:

-the followers of the Ashari/Maturidi schools of Aqida
-Followers of the 4 Sunni Madhabs
-followers of the orders (tariqas) of Tasawwuf

tasawwuf is a type of knowledge, it is NOT a sect, it is the knowledge of tazkiyat an-Nafs.

UkhtAlMuslimeen
15-04-08, 11:11 PM
-They reject the traditional Sunni madhabs of aqidah (Ash'ari, Maturidi) and differ on fundamental and main issues of aqida with Ahlus Sunnah, such as their anthropomorphic beliefs in regards to Allah (swt); they claim he has literal hands, shin, face, he sits on the throne, that he is above the throne and touching it, etc..

:salams
Allah...hands..shin..face... :rubeyes:
where on earth are you getting this from?????????

Enigma Dreamer
15-04-08, 11:13 PM
Chitown, could you provide evidence that Imam Abdiwahab, may Allah have mercy on him, declared all the other Muslims mushrikin? Can you also provide evidence frrm the prophet or from the sahaba that tawssul through a dead person or mawlid is allowed? Thanks.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 11:18 PM
CW, regarding hadra, are any of these writings by classical scholars? please can you provide names and links to these writings. :jkk:


Questions about the Hadra
http://www.livingislam.org/k/hdra_e.html


An Analysis of the evidence supporting the permissibility of Majalis (gatherings) of Dhikr
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=1855&CATE=105


Al-Hafith Ibn Hajr Al-’Asqalaani on the ‘Dancing’ of the Sufis
http://seekingilm.com/archives/166


Comprehensive Proofs for the Permissibility of Raqs (Dancing)
http://seekingilm.com/archives/207

Enigma Dreamer
15-04-08, 11:18 PM
in the context of this thread, Sufis are:

-the followers of the Ashari/Maturidi schools of Aqida
-Followers of the 4 Sunni Madhabs
-followers of the orders (tariqas) of Tasawwuf

tasawwuf is a type of knowledge, it is NOT a sect, it is the knowledge of tazkiyat an-Nafs.
Thanks. Could you tell me the origin of Tasawuf itself and how does it purify the nafs? Thanks.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 11:21 PM
Chitown, could you provide evidence that Imam Abdiwahab, may Allah have mercy on him, declared all the other Muslims mushrikin? Can you also provide evidence frrm the prophet or from the sahaba that tawssul through a dead person or mawlid is allowed? Thanks.


[The Prayer of Need]

Hadith number 253:

Yutawad-daa wa yusalli rakatayn thumma yad’oo/Make wudu, and pray two rakah (cycles) of prayer and then make the following supplication: Allahumma inni as’aluka, wa atawajjahu ilyaka bi-Nabiyyika Muhammad (saw) Nabiyyi-Rahma, Yaa Muhammad innee atawajjahu bika ilaa rabbiy fee haaajatee hathihi lituqdaa lee, Allahummah fashaf-fi-hu fee/O Allah! Verily I ask you, and turn to you through your Prophet Muhammad (saw) the Prophet of Mercy, O Muhammad verily I turn towards my Lord through you to my Lord in this need of mine, to fulfill it, O Allah intercede/cure this!

This hadith has been extracted by Tirmidhi, al-Hakim in his Mustadrak and Nisa’I, and it is from the hadith of Uthman bin Hanif may Allah be pleased with him. He said a blind man came to the Messenger of Allah (saw) and said: O Messenger of Allah Pray for me! He (saw) said: If you wish I will pray for you, but if you wish, you have been patient and this is better for you. He preferred to be supplicated for. The Messenger (saw) instructed him to make Wudu, and to make a perfect Wudu – Nisai’s narration adds in some of the reports (turuq) to make Wudu and pray two Rakah and then the supplication (as above). It was also extracted by Ibn Majah , and al-Hakim in his mustadrak who stated that it is sahih (authentic) according to the criterion of the two shaykhs (Imam Muslim and Imam Bukhari) and his narration had the addition: so he supplicated with this Dua and he arose and was able to see. Tirmidhi said the Hadith is Hasan Sahih (good and authentic) gharib (singular in chain) and we know this narration through this channel only from the Hadith of Abu Jafar and that is not al-Khatmi, these and other Imams have authenticated this narration, Nisa’I is alone in mentioneing the prayer, but Tabarani agreed with him and in mentions the same in some of his reports (turuq) it reports.

In the narration there is dalil (evidence) of the permissibility of Tawassul (taking a means) through the Messenger of Allah (saw) to Allah azza wa-jal with the firm belief (I’tiqad) that the only active agent (Faa’il) is Allah subhanahu wa’ta’aala, for verily He alone is the giver and the preventer, what He wishes, is, and what He does not wish never can be.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 11:24 PM
"ALLAH'S GENEROSITY TO HIS PROPHET AFTER HIS DEATH"

‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو النعمان ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏سعيد بن زيد ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عمرو بن مالك النكري ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏أبو الجوزاء أوس بن عبد الله ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏قحط ‏ ‏أهل ‏ ‏المدينة ‏ ‏قحطا ‏ ‏شديدا فشكوا إلى ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏فقالت انظروا قبر النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فاجعلوا منه ‏ ‏كوى ‏ ‏إلى السماء حتى لا يكون بينه وبين السماء سقف قال ففعلوا فمطرنا مطرا حتى نبت العشب وسمنت الإبل حتى ‏ ‏تفتقت ‏ ‏من الشحم فسمي عام ‏ ‏الفتق

Imam Dārimī relates from Abū al-Jawzā’ Aws bin ‘Abdullāh:

The people of Medina were in the grip of a severe famine. They complained to ‘Ā’ishah (about their terrible condition). She told them to go towards the Prophet’s grave and open a window in the direction of the sky so that there is no curtain between the sky and the grave. The narrator says they did so. Then it started raining heavily; even the lush green grass sprang up (everywhere) and the camels had grown so fat (it seemed) they would burst out due to the over piling of blubber. So the year was named as the year of greenery and plenty.

Dārimī related it in his Sunan (1:43#93); Ibn-ul-Jawzī in al-Wafā’ bi-ahwāl-il-mustafā (2:801); Subkī in Shifā’-us-siqām fī ziyārat khayr-il-anām (p.128); Qastallānī in al-Mawāhib-ul-laduniyyah (4:276); and Zurqānī in his Commentary (11:150).



Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Alawī al-Mālikī says: “This tradition has a good chain of transmission; rather, in my opinion, it is sound. The scholars have also acknowledged its soundness and have established its genuineness on the basis of almost equally credible evidence.

salahuldin786
15-04-08, 11:27 PM
:salams
Allah...hands..shin..face... :rubeyes:
where on earth are you getting this from?????????



that is true because the other day i was talking to a salafi brother and he said that to me that allah has two hand's and a face and sit's on his throne above us.

Enigma Dreamer
15-04-08, 11:27 PM
[The Prayer of Need]

Hadith number 253:

Yutawad-daa wa yusalli rakatayn thumma yad’oo/Make wudu, and pray two rakah (cycles) of prayer and then make the following supplication: Allahumma inni as’aluka, wa atawajjahu ilyaka bi-Nabiyyika Muhammad (saw) Nabiyyi-Rahma, Yaa Muhammad innee atawajjahu bika ilaa rabbiy fee haaajatee hathihi lituqdaa lee, Allahummah fashaf-fi-hu fee/O Allah! Verily I ask you, and turn to you through your Prophet Muhammad (saw) the Prophet of Mercy, O Muhammad verily I turn towards my Lord through you to my Lord in this need of mine, to fulfill it, O Allah intercede/cure this!

This hadith has been extracted by Tirmidhi, al-Hakim in his Mustadrak and Nisa’I, and it is from the hadith of Uthman bin Hanif may Allah be pleased with him. He said a blind man came to the Messenger of Allah (saw) and said: O Messenger of Allah Pray for me! He (saw) said: If you wish I will pray for you, but if you wish, you have been patient and this is better for you. He preferred to be supplicated for. The Messenger (saw) instructed him to make Wudu, and to make a perfect Wudu – Nisai’s narration adds in some of the reports (turuq) to make Wudu and pray two Rakah and then the supplication (as above). It was also extracted by Ibn Majah , and al-Hakim in his mustadrak who stated that it is sahih (authentic) according to the criterion of the two shaykhs (Imam Muslim and Imam Bukhari) and his narration had the addition: so he supplicated with this Dua and he arose and was able to see. Tirmidhi said the Hadith is Hasan Sahih (good and authentic) gharib (singular in chain) and we know this narration through this channel only from the Hadith of Abu Jafar and that is not al-Khatmi, these and other Imams have authenticated this narration, Nisa’I is alone in mentioneing the prayer, but Tabarani agreed with him and in mentions the same in some of his reports (turuq) it reports.

In the narration there is dalil (evidence) of the permissibility of Tawassul (taking a means) through the Messenger of Allah (saw) to Allah azza wa-jal with the firm belief (I’tiqad) that the only active agent (Faa’il) is Allah subhanahu wa’ta’aala, for verily He alone is the giver and the preventer, what He wishes, is, and what He does not wish never can be.
Thank you for that but it didn't show me any evidence that allows Tawassul through a dead person. We know many people used to come to the pprophet asking him to pray for them. You probably heard of that epileptic sahabiyah woman, may Allah be pleased with her. So this is not the debate. It is simple. What evidence do you have to support tawassul through a dead person? Also my other question about Imam A/Wahab remains unanswered. Shukran brother.

stranger101
15-04-08, 11:35 PM
:salams

This is in reference to the article I put up a while ago which DOESNT talk about the Moghul Emperor, but rather answers some questions regarding the Hadra as performed by some of our brethren and whether it is permissible. The article was written by Shaykh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda (Rahimahullah) and was translated by A.Haque. If it was not for the concerned brother who edited my post and deleted the article, as it was a bit long, brothers and sisters would have been much cautious before talking bad about me. The link to the article can be found below:
http://attalib.blogspot.com/2007/04/prohibited-forms-of-dhikr-by-shaykh.html

Wassalaam

aboosait
16-04-08, 04:02 AM
Blud why you asking me like im some Sheikhul Hadith :rotfl:

The brother has asked you about your position. Not of any Sheikhul Hadith. Now would you mind asking yourself and replying to that straight question?

:salams

aboosait
16-04-08, 04:33 AM
[The Prayer of Need]

Hadith number 253:

Wonderful CP.

Please try to understand the Hadith with reference to the context.


O Allah! Verily I ask you, and turn to you through your Prophet Muhammad (saw) the Prophet of Mercy,

O Muhammad verily I turn towards my Lord through you to my Lord in this need of mine, to fulfill it, O Allah intercede/cure this!

This is the 'n' th time you are quoting this Story of the blind man narated by Uthman bin Hunaif.

Considering the chain to be correct, the actual state of episode that comes forth is that

one blind Sahabi came to the Prophet and requested him to pray for the return of his eyesight.

Prophet offered him two options.


One, that he should have patience so it will be better for him.


Second that if he wants the Prophet can pray for him.


The Sahabi opted for the second choice thus the Prophet commanded him to make ablution and read two "Rakat Salah" (which in its self is a very big wasila) and then taught him the supplication.

The words in the narration are:


" In nee As-aloka wa-atawajjaho Ilaika be Nabiyyika "

Meaning that I ask you (O Allah) and attend to you with or through your Prophet.

And
"In nee tawajjahto beka ila Rabbi"

That I attend with or through you (O Prophet) towards my Lord.

According to the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, that man did this. And since Prophet said that he would supplicate for him, he must have done so by which his sight came back.

This is the simple gist that is apparent from this Hadith.

There is no sign about intimating wasila regarding rank or status of a dead person in one's supplication.

The Prophet is wasila in a sense that his prayers and teachings are a source for us by which we can get near to Allah, provided we act upon them.

This is what his companion did, he went to the Prophet and through him learnt and supplicated to Allah and Prophet supplicated with him.

RashidD
16-04-08, 05:41 AM
:salams
but what if the daleel for no Qadha is stronger.(btw...im not saying it is or isnt) because, all four imams of all four madhabs said something along the lines of ...'when a hadith is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhab'
'when i say soemthing contradicting the book of Allah :Swt: or what is narrated from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then ignore my saying'
- that what said by imam Abu Hanifa rahimahuallah.
imam Shaafi'a rahimahuallah said ' if you see me saying something, and contrary to it is authentically reported from the messenger of Allah :saw:, then know my intelligence has departed'
so, if the daleel is stronger...is it then not upon us to follow that...Allah knows best.



How do you know which is stronger? You're a layman, you can't overrule a qualified 'aalim who disagrees with you right...

How do you save yourself from following your nafs? If Shaykh bin baaz and Ibn Utheymeen say niqaab is waajib but Shaykh al-Albaani said it's mustahabb then how do you choose which to follow? If you choose the more lenient opinion, how do you know it's not from your nafs?

Differences of opinion existed at the time of the Sahaba (radiALLAHu Anhum) [2 hadith come to mind] - both were accepted.

al faqeer
16-04-08, 06:45 AM
I think Sufis are less prejudice than salafis and much less holier than thou , The very fact any Sufi has no problem to pray behind a salafi , means they are more humble .

But Not most salafis will pray behind a Known Sufi .

But still If Salafis and Sufis Go to Jihad Now ! I mean as in ultimate Jihad and not (Jihadi takfeeri suicide bombing baloney) , they have no option but to fight side by side .

Contemplate .

*asiya*
16-04-08, 06:51 AM
I think Sufis are less prejudice than salafis and much less holier than thou , The very fact any Sufi has no problem to pray behind a salafi , means they are more humble .

But Not most salafis will pray behind a Known Sufi .

But still If Salafis and Sufis Go to Jihad Now ! I mean as in ultimate Jihad and not (Jihadi takfeeri suicide bombing baloney) , they have no option but to fight side by side .

Contemplate .


read the rules of the discussion from page one. this is not a thread for u to just slag off salafis and big up the sufi .

al faqeer
16-04-08, 06:56 AM
read the rules of the discussion from page one. this is not a thread for u to just slag off salafis and big up the sufi .

Answer me if you can , I am making a statement I am not taking apunch at salafis i am telling you how it is .

If you dont like it report it to the mods and have it deleted :rolleyes: .

*asiya*
16-04-08, 07:08 AM
Answer me if you can , I am making a statement I am not taking apunch at salafis i am telling you how it is .

If you dont like it report it to the mods and have it deleted :rolleyes: .

there is no question to answer. and that is your own personal opinon, which doesnt make it a truthful statement, read the first two pages then u can see u need to report your own post because youre off topic .

al faqeer
16-04-08, 07:13 AM
there is no question to answer. and that is your own personal opinon, which doesnt make it a truthful statement, read the first two pages then u can see u need to report your own post because youre off topic .

It is truthful ask the rest of the people in the thread even salafis themselves .

the thread is about sufis and salafis , i posted what i think . if you dont like it ignore it .

aboosait
16-04-08, 09:37 AM
*grabs popcorn*

Muslims on Ummah.com actually debating about Islam *shock*


An-Nisa (The Women)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ آمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللّهِ وَمَلاَئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيدً

ا (4:136)


O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger,

and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger

and the scripture which He sent to those before (him).

Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment,

hath gone far, far astray.

aboosait
16-04-08, 09:55 AM
................tasawwuf is a type of knowledge,

it is NOT a sect,.....................

And the person who follows tasawwuf will be called Sufi

and the Sufis constitute a sect


it is the knowledge of tazkiyat an-Nafs.

tazkiyat an-Nafs? Can you put that in English?

.: Anna :.
16-04-08, 09:58 AM
tazkiyat an-Nafs? Can you put that in English?purification of the soul

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 10:05 AM
THE DOCTRINE OF

AHL AL-SUNNA

VERSUS THE "SALAFI" MOVEMENT

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/fajr.html

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 10:11 AM
sunni forum
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2028

aboosait
16-04-08, 10:15 AM
"ALLAH'S GENEROSITY TO HIS PROPHET AFTER HIS DEATH"

Imam Dārimī relates from Abū al-Jawzā’ Aws bin ‘Abdullāh:

.............So the year was named as the year of greenery and plenty..............

If the year was named Fatq that means that it must be a well-known incident and many people should have been narrating it.

So why is it that it is only mentioned in Ibn Maja through only one chain of narrators?

It is not wise enough to present this narration as an evidence for the topic under discussion.


The narrator narrating from Aisha (radiallahu anhu) is Abu Al-Jauza. His name is Aus bin Abdullah.

Although he is Thiqah but his narrations from Aisha (radiallahu anhu) are controversial.



Imam Bukhari mentioned that his meeting with Aisha (radiallahu anhu) is not established. [Ref: Al-Kamil Al-Duafa Vol.2 Page 107 and Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb)


Narrating from Abu Al-Jauza is Amr bin Malik.

His narration from Abu Al-Jauza is insecure. [Ref: Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb]



Narrating from Amr bin Malik is Saeed bin Zaid.

Among many scholars he is considered weak [Ref: Al-Kamil, Meezan ul Aitidal and Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb]



Narrating from Saeed bin Zaid is his student Abu Al-Nauman Muhammad bin Al-Fazal who is Thiqah but suffered from bad memory during later part of his life (Tahzeeb-ut-Tahzeeb).

So for authenticity it must be clear when Imam Darmi heard from him? In his early life hood or later part?

Joha
16-04-08, 10:32 AM
THE DOCTRINE OF AHL AL-SUNNA VERSUS THE "SALAFI" MOVEMENT

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/fajr.html

Have you even read that article? It wouldn't stand up to a minutes objective scrutiny...

An article masquerading as academic, but about the most un-academic as they come, resorting to crude comparisons with irrelevant historical facts weaved in with dubious rhetoric to persuade the reader that something's amiss.

Ahadith taken completely out of context, despite the main accusation being that 'Salafis' are taking Qur'anic verses out of context.

Pretty hypocritical I'd say. But I'm just trying to be fair.

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 10:37 AM
NARRATION OF MALIK AL-DAR

Imam al-Bayhaqi relates with a sound (sahih) chain:

It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar's treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the successorship of `Umar, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said:

"O Messenger of Allah, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished," after which the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: You must be clever, you must be clever!"

The man went and told `Umar. The latter said: "O my Lord, I spare no effort except in what escapes my power!""


Ibn Kathir cites it thus from Bayhaqi in al-Bidaya wa al-nihaya and says: isnaduhu sahih; Ibn Abi Shayba cites it in his Musannaf with a sound (sahih) chain as confirmed by Ibn Hajar who says: rawa Ibn Abi Shayba bi isnadin sahih and cites the hadith in Fath al-bari. He identifies Malik al-Dar as `Umar's treasurer (khazin `umar) and says that the man who visited and saw the Prophet in his dream is identified as the Companion Bilal ibn al-Harith, and he counts this hadith among the reasons for Bukhari's naming of the chapter "The people's request to their leader for rain if they suffer drought." He also mentions it in al-Isaba, where he says that Ibn Abi Khaythama cited it.


What follows is the original Arabic wording of this hadith of tawassul in Umar ibn al Khattab's time as cited by various major scholars of Hadith:


From the Musannaf (12/31-32) of ibn Abi Shayba (d. 235 AH)

مُصَنَّفُ ابْنِ أَبِي شَيْبَةَ >> كِتَابُ الْفَضَائِلِ >> مَا ذُكِرَ فِي فَضْلِ عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ >>
يَا رَبِّ لَا آلُو إِلَّا مَا عَجَزْتُ عَنْهُ *

31380 حدثنا أبو معاوية ، عن الأعمش ، عن أبي صالح ، عن مالك الدار ، قال : وكان خازن عمر على الطعام ، قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر ، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا رسول الله ، استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا ، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له : " ائت عمر فأقرئه السلام ، وأخبره أنكم مستقيمون وقل له : عليك الكيس ، عليك الكيس " ، فأتى عمر فأخبره فبكى عمر ثم قال : يا رب لا آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه *

From Imam al-Bayhaqi's Dala'il al-Nubuwwa (7/47)

دَلَائِلُ النُّبُوَّةِ لِلْبَيْهَقِيِّ >> جُمَّاعُ أَبْوَابِ غَزْوَةِ تَبُوكَ >> جُمَّاعُ أَبْوَابِ مَنْ رَأَى فِي مَنَامِهِ شَيْئًا مِنْ آثَارِ نُبُوَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ >> بَابُ مَا جَاءَ فِي رُؤْيَةِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي >>
مَا آلُو إِلَّا مَا عَجَزْتُ عَنْهُ *

2974 أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة ، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا : أخبرنا أبو عمرو بن مطر ، أخبرنا أبو بكر بن علي الذهلي ، أخبرنا يحيى ، أخبرنا أبو معاوية ، عن الأعمش ، عن أبي صالح ، عن مالك قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمان عمر بن الخطاب ؛ فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا رسول الله , استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا ؛ فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام ؛ فقال ائت عمر فأقرئه السلام ، وأخبره أنكم مسقون . وقل له : عليك الكيس الكيس . فأتى الرجل عمر ، فأخبره ، فبكى عمر ثم قال : يا رب ما آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه *

From al-Irshad fi Ma'rifa Ulama al-Hadith of Hafiz al-Khalili (1/313-314)

الْإِرْشَادُ فِي مَعْرِفَةِ عُلَمَاءِ الْحَدِيثِ لِلْخَلِيلِيِّ >>
مَالِكُ الدَّارِ

مالك الدار مولى عمر بن الخطاب الرعاء عنه : تابعي , قديم , متفق عليه , أثنى عليه التابعون , وليس بكثير الرواية , روى عن أبي بكر الصديق , وعمر , وقد انتسب ولده إلى جبلان ناحية . حدثني محمد بن أحمد بن عبدوس المزكي أبو بكر النيسابوري , حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد بن الحسن الشرقي , حدثنا محمد بن عبد الوهاب قال : قلت لعلي بن عثام العامري الكوفي : لم سمي مالك الدار ؟ فقال : الداري المتطيب . حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن الفتح , حدثنا عبد الله بن محمد البغوي , حدثنا أبو خيثمة , حدثنا محمد بن خازم الضرير , حدثنا الأعمش , عن أبي صالح , عن مالك الدار ، قال : أصاب الناس قحط في زمان عمر بن الخطاب , فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال : يا نبي الله , استسق الله لأمتك فرأى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال : " ائت عمر , فأقرئه السلام , وقل له : إنكم مسقون , فعليك بالكيس الكيس " . قال : فبكى عمر , وقال : يا رب , ما آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه يقال : إن أبا صالح سمع مالك الدار هذا الحديث , والباقون أرسلوه

Imam Ibn Kathir in al Bidaya wal Nihaya (7/106)

وقال الحافظ أبو بكر البيهقي: أخبرنا أبو نصر بن قتادة، وأبو بكر الفارسي قالا: حدثنا أبو عمر بن مطر، حدثنا إبراهيم بن علي الذهلي، حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى، حدثنا أبو معاوية، عن الأعمش، عن أبي صالح، عن مالك قال: أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر بن الخطاب، فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم.
فقال: يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا.
فأتاه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال: إيت عمر، فأقرئه مني السلام، وأخبرهم أنه مسقون، وقل له عليك بالكيس الكيس.
فأتى الرجل فأخبر عمر، فقال: يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه.وهذا إسناد صحيح.

Shaykh al-Islam al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in al-Isaba fi Tamyiz al-Sahaba (3/484) :

الإصابة - لابن حجر

8362[ص:274] مالك بن عياض مولى عمر هو الذي يقال له مالك الدار له إدراك وسمع من أبي بكر الصديق وروى عن الشيخين ومعاذ وأبي عبيدة روى عنه أبو صالح السمان وابناه عون وعبدالله ابنا مالك وأخرج البخاري في التاريخ من طريق أبي صالح ذكوان عن مالك الدار أن عمر قال في قحوط المطر يا رب لا آلو إلا ما عجزت عنه وأخرجه بن أبي خيثمة من هذا الوجه مطولا قال أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال يا رسول الله استسق الله لأمتك فأتاه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في المنام فقال له ائت عمر فقل له إنكم مستسقون فعليك الكفين قال فبكى عمر وقال يا رب ما آلوا إلا ما عجزت عنه وروينا في فوائد داود بن عمرو الضبي جمع البغوي من طريق عبدالرحمن بن سعيد بن يربوع المخزومي عن مالك الدار قال دعاني عمر بن الخطاب يوما فإذا عنده صرة من ذهب فيها أربعمائة دينار فقال اذهب بهذه إلى أبي عبيدة فذكر قصته وذكر بن سعد في الطبقة الأولى من التابعين في أهل المدينة قال روى عن أبي بكر وعمر وكان معروفا وقال أبو عبيدة ولاه عمر كيلة عيال عمر فلما قدم عثمان ولاه القسم فسمى مالك الدار وقال إسماعيل القاضي عن علي بن المديني كان مالك الدار خازنا لعمر.

Hafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al Bari (2/495)


وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث.
وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة، وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق.

Imam ibn Abdal Barr in al-Isti’ab (2/464) under the biography of Umar ibn al Khattab (ra) said:

وروى أبو معاوية عن الأعمش عن أبي صالح عن مالك الدار قال‏:‏ أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال‏:‏ يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا‏.‏



"Note: All of these Imams narrated it and not one of them weakened it let alone said it leads to Shirk as some of the innovators of this age claimed!

In fact Imam ibn Hajar and Imam ibn Kathir explicitly declared its Isnad to be Sahih. Ibn Kathir in his recently published: Jami al-Masanid (1/223) - Musnad Umar - declared it as: "Isnaduhu Jayyid Qawi: ITS CHAIN OF TRANSMISSION IS GOOD AND STRONG!"



1.0 to ahl sunna wal jammah

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 10:38 AM
Have you even read that article? It wouldn't stand up to a minutes objective scrutiny...

An article masquerading as academic, but about the most un-academic as they come, resorting to crude comparisons with irrelevant historical facts weaved in with dubious rhetoric to persuade the reader that something's amiss.

Ahadith taken completely out of context, despite the main accusation being that 'Salafis' are taking Qur'anic verses out of context.

Pretty hypocritical I'd say. But I'm just trying to be fair.



oh yeah you fair :rolleyes: and if you bothered to finish it you would see salafi belief's against ahl sunna wal jammah belief's.

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 10:59 AM
Prohibited forms of Dhikr
Shaykh `Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda

Translated by A. Haque*

http://attalib.blogspot.com/

The actual link is http://attalib.blogspot.com/2007/04/prohibited-forms-of-dhikr-by-shaykh.html

It is a very good read, Allamah Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda, is a great Faqih and is also a Hannafi in Madhab, however he is not dheeq in his views, he is very well read and knows the fiqh of all the Madhaahib and taught in Saudi for many years, so he is well versed with the Salafi manhaj as well.

May Allah swt give our shaiykh Jannatul Firdaus.

Just on another couple of points which goes to the first point I made, if there isnt a clear definition as to what is Salafi and what is Sufi, then we will just get peoples views rather then facts.

For example I have read here that the Hadrah is associated with Tasawwuf, or something that all sufis do, this is not true. The majority of the Sufi Tareeqahs do not practice Hadrah, it is not in there Nisaab. There are only a few, ones that originate from north Africa, and some of the ones from Yemen that have Hadrah.


The Majority of sufi Tareeqah do not have standing dhkir. Therefore if one goes by majority view, and the strict following of the Tareeqah then Hadrah is only a minority.

Secondly, a sufi does not have a separate aqeedah, they just follow the aqeedah of one of the Madhaahib or imams. However the issue in the belief of the sufi is wahdatul wujood. Which in itself many sufi scholars today dont even bother with, after the findings of Imam Rabbani and Imam Yahya minuri. They by way of experience realized that wahdatul wujood is only so because of the lack of the salik to have travel beyond it.

With regards the Salafi, there is two main groups, one that totally rejects the Madhaahib, and these are the dheeq in view, they reject anyone who follows madhaahib and have no room for Madhaahib, these are very loud and few in number. The majority of these are in the west, reborn young fired up Muslims with a lot of emotion. The aqeedah is general Athari, they do not give any meanings to the description Allah swt has given for himself in the Quran. They just take it as is, and say it is befitting Him how he wishes to give it meaning.

Then there are the Salafi's who say there is nothing wrong with following Madhaab, or Madhaahib, but it should be done knowingly, accepting by way of knowing the reason. In Aqeedah they follow the Athari, but they do not pertain to it, they basically say we follow the extent to which the Prophet explained these matters, and strictly to that.

Therefore in order that this whole thread follows a route, let us first follow the methodology of debate.

First and foremost, have a sound understanding of what you present, and in this regard whether you claim to be sufi or salafi, if you present a view, then you will be question on that view, and to prove by text that view of that group.

Secondly, keep your post concise and focused, and aim at conveying a message and not just condemning of knocking someones argument.

finally, the aim should always be above the debate and it should not get mixed in the debate, and that is to acquire and understanding of the difference, and if the difference is supported by Quran and Sunnah, then accepting the difference. What does that mean? for example if you know raising ones hand in salah is sunnah, and also not raising it is sunnah, then you should not have an issue to do either in salah.

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 11:11 AM
ON DHIKR
REMEMBRANCE OF GOD
http://www.livingislam.org/n/dhkr_e.html

DHIKR IS THE GREATEST OBLIGATION AND A PERPETUAL DIVINE ORDER
http://sunnah.org/ibadaat/dhikr.htm

mr E
16-04-08, 11:11 AM
The sahabah and the salaf used to be successful because they were less talk and more action.

They did not delve into delicate matters of aqueedah, especially when they were more than capable to do so.

The sufi and the salafi share much in common, leave the extremes at either end, and you will meet in the middle.

Leave the debate to the scholars.

Fitnah Bolice
16-04-08, 11:18 AM
The bolded part of your post seems to indicate that the Imams of the madhahib, when giving a particular verdict might have been unaware of certain adillah. What if this is not the case? What if the dalil is from the Quran and still there are differences of opinion? In situations such as these, how is the weak view distinguished from the strong one? Or is it simply taqlid? Just instead of making taqlid of a particular madhhab, it is taqlid of the latter day scholars?



There is the inclination to follow one of the opinions of the imams, not on the basis of Tarjeeh, but because of a desire to follow the easiest way or because it suits ones own desires, to avoid falling into this trap one should only select or give preference to an opinion either by studying the matter and examining the evidence and proofs offered by all sides, (as for most people this is impossible due to whatever excuse), or else, by following a scholar who is well known to be knowledgeable, pious and righteous, so that you feel confident of his sincerity and wide knowledge.

With regards to your qada scenario/situation because the situation in question is an issue where difference of opinion is permissible it should not be used to create disputes between muslims, but rather the issue should be studied by yourself if you're a student of knowledge and then decide on the basis of tarjeeh, if that is not possible then take from a scholar who you trust. (It may be taqlid of modern day scholars but you take from them knowing full well that what they have told you is based on tarjeeh)

Just bare in mind that the opinion of a madhaib is not always correct, this is not the saying of the modern day scholars but the the imams themselves.

and Allah knows best.

salahuldin786
16-04-08, 11:25 AM
Salafiyya has been saying that:

1) Taqleed (Blind following) is the ROOT of All Evil

2) If All Muslims followed the Qur'aan & the Sunnah; Ummah will be united

3) We should follow Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) INSTEAD of an Imam

4) Hold on to Qur'aan & Authentic Sunnah

I am sure you have heard it all before...

Now lets see the unity of Salafees themselves:

http://www.tariqabdelhaleem.com/pdf/9Salafis_Nov22.pdf

Is it just me or is everyone else equally confused? Which ones of these are following the Qur'aan & Sunnah and which ones are the fake ones?

So it boils down:

a) Follow a Madhab and you can have a MAX of 4

b) Don't follow a Madhab and splinter into Ahmm! Ahmm! Cough! Cough! It will get so confusing that no one will be able to figure it out.

I love the, "Albani Group"; that one is cracker...

You follow Imam Abu Haneefa who is from the Tab'aeen and you are a Mushrik and Mubtadeh; you follow a Shaykh from the twentieth century and you are guided and on the right track...Subhanullah!

Ibn Khattab
16-04-08, 11:32 AM
Salahudin where are you getting this from? your just claiming that salafis say that but where did you find that salafis say that?

RashidD
16-04-08, 11:40 AM
The actual link is http://attalib.blogspot.com/2007/04/prohibited-forms-of-dhikr-by-shaykh.html

It is a very good read, Allamah Abdul Fattah Abu Ghudda, is a great Faqih and is also a Hannafi in Madhab, however he is not dheeq in his views, he is very well read and knows the fiqh of all the Madhaahib and taught in Saudi for many years, so he is well versed with the Salafi manhaj as well.

May Allah swt give our shaiykh Jannatul Firdaus.

Just on another couple of points which goes to the first point I made, if there isnt a clear definition as to what is Salafi and what is Sufi, then we will just get peoples views rather then facts.

For example I have read here that the Hadrah is associated with Tasawwuf, or something that all sufis do, this is not true. The majority of the Sufi Tareeqahs do not practice Hadrah, it is not in there Nisaab. There are only a few, ones that originate from north Africa, and some of the ones from Yemen that have Hadrah.


The Majority of sufi Tareeqah do not have standing dhkir. Therefore if one goes by majority view, and the strict following of the Tareeqah then Hadrah is only a minority.

Secondly, a sufi does not have a separate aqeedah, they just follow the aqeedah of one of the Madhaahib or imams. However the issue in the belief of the sufi is wahdatul wujood. Which in itself many sufi scholars today dont even bother with, after the findings of Imam Rabbani and Imam Yahya minuri. They by way of experience realized that wahdatul wujood is only so because of the lack of the salik to have travel beyond it.

With regards the Salafi, there is two main groups, one that totally rejects the Madhaahib, and these are the dheeq in view, they reject anyone who follows madhaahib and have no room for Madhaahib, these are very loud and few in number. The majority of these are in the west, reborn young fired up Muslims with a lot of emotion. The aqeedah is general Athari, they do not give any meanings to the description Allah swt has given for himself in the Quran. They just take it as is, and say it is befitting Him how he wishes to give it meaning.

Then there are the Salafi's who say there is nothing wrong with following Madhaab, or Madhaahib, but it should be done knowingly, accepting by way of knowing the reason. In Aqeedah they follow the Athari, but they do not pertain to it, they basically say we follow the extent to which the Prophet explained these matters, and strictly to that.

Therefore in order that this whole thread follows a route, let us first follow the methodology of debate.

First and foremost, have a sound understanding of what you present, and in this regard whether you claim to be sufi or salafi, if you present a view, then you will be question on that view, and to prove by text that view of that group.

Secondly, keep your post concise and focused, and aim at conveying a message and not just condemning of knocking someones argument.

finally, the aim should always be above the debate and it should not get mixed in the debate, and that is to acquire and understanding of the difference, and if the difference is supported by Quran and Sunnah, then accepting the difference. What does that mean? for example if you know raising ones hand in salah is sunnah, and also not raising it is sunnah, then you should not have an issue to do either in salah.



Can you give us some more info on athari which salafis follow... I've never seen them making tafweed al-mana (i.e. ALLAH says he has yadd so He has them and we don't know what they are)

I thought they made tafweed al-kayf (i.e. ALLAH says he has yadd therefore we affirm that he has 'hands' and they are in a manner befitting his Glory and Majesty, without resemblance to the creation)

From an aqeedah point of view, is any of these conclusions wrong? This is one of the views that sufis have against salafis IIRC.

aboosait
16-04-08, 11:56 AM
If the year was named Fatq that means that it must be a well-known incident and many people should have been narrating it.

So why is it that it is only mentioned in Ibn Maja through only one chain of narrators?

It is not wise enough to present this narration as an evidence for the topic under discussion.


The narrator narrating from Aisha (radiallahu anhu) is Abu Al-Jauza. His name is Aus bin Abdullah.

Although he is Thiqah but his narrations from Aisha (radiallahu anhu) are controversial.



Imam Bukhari mentioned that his meeting with Aisha (radiallahu anhu) is not established. [Ref: Al-Kamil Al-Duafa Vol.2 Page 107 and Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb)


Narrating from Abu Al-Jauza is Amr bin Malik.

His narration from Abu Al-Jauza is insecure. [Ref: Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb]



Narrating from Amr bin Malik is Saeed bin Zaid.

Among many scholars he is considered weak [Ref: Al-Kamil, Meezan ul Aitidal and Tahzeeb ut Tahzeeb]



Narrating from Saeed bin Zaid is his student Abu Al-Nauman Muhammad bin Al-Fazal who is Thiqah but suffered from bad memory during later part of his life (Tahzeeb-ut-Tahzeeb).

So for authenticity it must be clear when Imam Darmi heard from him? In his early life hood or later part?

A reply to the "Salafi" Objectors on the hadith

You have quoted my post and randomly copied some stuff from some website.

Some of it is repetition of your original post and some of it is talking about Albani wherehas I have not mentioned Albani in my post.



.............The first refutation enclosed was found in this article on the subject of TAWASSUL :

Al-Darimi i......"The people of Madina complained to `A'isha of .....................That year was named the Year of Plenty."

............A'isha differs from that of modern-day "Salafis," s............

Shaykh Albani, in order to reject the hadith of Darimi,...................

................. Albani deliberately omits to mention ..........


Following is a point-by-point refutation of Albani's claims

...........Albani's weakening of ...................

.................Albani has adduced worthless proofs ........

He cited whatever fit his whim ...............d

Albani cited Ahmad's grading of Sa`id ibn Zayd as ...................

As for Albani's quotation of Ibn Taymiyya's claim

Please clarify what Albani has to do with my statements which you have quoted and the subject of discussion

And please tell me what the following statement has to do with my post that you have quoted.




A fair-skinned one by whose face rainclouds are sought,

A caretaker for the orphans and protector of widows.

`Umar ibn Hamza said: Salim narrated from his father (Ibn `Umar) that the latter said:

"The poet's saying came to my mind as I was looking at the face of the Prophet while he was praying for rain -- and he did not get down till the rain water flowed profusely from every roof-gutter:

A fair-skinned one by whose face rainclouds are sought,

A caretaker for the orphans and protector of widows.

One sub-narrator added: "These were the words of Abu Talib."


Note that in his translation of Bukhari (2:65), Muhammad Muhsin Khan alters the wording of the hadith to read: "A white person who is requested to pray for rain" in place of "by whose face rain is sought," and Allah knows best the reason for this grave betrayal of the translator's trust in the most important Islamic source after the Qur'an.

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 12:02 PM
Can you give us some more info on athari which salafis follow... I've never seen them making tafweed al-mana (i.e. ALLAH says he has yadd so He has them and we don't know what they are)

I thought they made tafweed al-kayf (i.e. ALLAH says he has yadd therefore we affirm that he has 'hands' and they are in a manner befitting his Glory and Majesty, without resemblance to the creation)

From an aqeedah point of view, is any of these conclusions wrong? This is one of the views that sufis have against salafis IIRC.

With regards to Tafweed, because ibn Taymiyyah RA was a Hannbali, the basics or the building blocks of his explanation of Aqeedah is impacted by what Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal used to follow. Therefore the Athari is there, except with the changes as you pointed out. Again this is not in all the cases, some just follow Tafweed al mana

No there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we are clear that it is the statement of Allah swt as revealed by Him, in the intent that is meant by Him, which is what is best befitting Him. This is the most fundamental and basic. Even if one follows the Ashari, or Maturidi, they dont reject that.

Eemaan
16-04-08, 12:03 PM
this is the worst thread ever. whose bright idea was it anyway. given me a headache :S

ummah members should not be allowed to think, it causes too many problems. its the pie squared of evil.

RashidD
16-04-08, 12:11 PM
With regards to Tafweed, because ibn Taymiyyah RA was a Hannbali, the basics or the building blocks of his explanation of Aqeedah is impacted by what Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal used to follow. Therefore the Athari is there, except with the changes as you pointed out. Again this is not in all the cases, some just follow Tafweed al mana

No there is nothing wrong with this, as long as we are clear that it is the statement of Allah swt as revealed by Him, in the intent that is meant by Him, which is what is best befitting Him. This is the most fundamental and basic. Even if one follows the Ashari, or Maturidi, they dont reject that.

Emphasis is mine.
How do we know what intent that was?

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 12:21 PM
Emphasis is mine.
How do we know what intent that was?

Assual a'nhu bid'ah, questioning and digging into that area is bid'ah.

RashidD
16-04-08, 12:24 PM
Assual fee hi bid'ah, questioning and digging into that area is bid'ah.

I think i mistyped as per what you said... I meant, how do we know if He says "yadd" then whether it means hands/ qudrat (as per what the two sides... those making tafweed al-kayf/ those making ta'wil would say) Or are both allowed?

aboosait
16-04-08, 12:35 PM
It is related from Malik al-Dar, `Umar's treasurer, that the people suffered a drought during the successorship of `Umar, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet and said:...........

What is the name of the person who went to the tomb?

[B]Is it that the person is unknown? (Majhool).

This incident revolves around Malik Al-dar (Malik bin Ayadh) whose complete details are not known (Majhool).

See Ibn Abi Hatim's Jarah wat Ta'deel [4/1 P213 or Vol.8 P213]. No commentary about his reliability is given.

The only person who narrated from Malik is Abu Salih Al-Samman as mentioned by Ibn Abi Hatim Al-Razi.

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 12:51 PM
I think i mistyped as per what you said... I meant, how do we know if He says "yadd" then whether it means hands/ qudrat (as per what the two sides... those making tafweed al-kayf/ those making ta'wil would say) Or are both allowed?

Scholars make allowance for both, and they place them All under Ahl us sunnah wal jammah. The Athari, Ashari, Maturidi are all consider Ahl us sunnah.

the_middle_road
16-04-08, 12:52 PM
Scholars make allowance for both, and they place them All under Ahl us sunnah wa jammah.

But not the Salafiyyah. They don't accept ta'wil as being valid. Is that correct?

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 12:59 PM
But not the Salafiyyah. They don't accept ta'wil as being valid. Is that correct?

The strict ones dont, but the second group who accept madhaahibs accept Ta'wil. But then there is a limit to Ta'wil, the Barelwis, and Qadirriyah and this Haqqani group etc start writing narratives etc. Any Ta'wil itself also has its reference in other Ayaat or Ahadith. For example, Yadullaha fawqa aydeehim, they use this as reason to give Tawil that it does not reference to physical hand but rather manawi.

*asiya*
16-04-08, 01:34 PM
if people arent salafi then they should refrain from making statements about salafi beleifs, because this isnt a fact what is being said here. i dont think one salafi has posted in this thread yet, its just ppl saying what they heard about the salafi brothers and sisters. if u want to know how to bake bread u dont ask the butcher what he heard about how to bake bread, and what he believes is the way the baker makes his bread...

Hekmaa
16-04-08, 02:06 PM
if people arent salafi then they should refrain from making statements about salafi beleifs, because this isnt a fact what is being said here. i dont think one salafi has posted in this thread yet, its just ppl saying what they heard about the salafi brothers and sisters. if u want to know how to bake bread u dont ask the butcher what he heard about how to bake bread, and what he believes is the way the baker makes his bread...


The problem is, whether Salafi or Sufi, not knowing what their label means.

Also i dont think one needs to be wearing a label to know the reality, one could have studied for many years with salafi scholars, and or hanafi, shafi scholars, yet not claim to be a salafi or sufi, does that mean they cant share?

Skilly
16-04-08, 11:16 PM
The problem is, whether Salafi or Sufi, not knowing what their label means.

Also i dont think one needs to be wearing a label to know the reality, one could have studied for many years with salafi scholars, and or hanafi, shafi scholars, yet not claim to be a salafi or sufi, does that mean they cant share?



One should not make a distinction between a salafi scholars, and Hanafi/shaffi scholars.

You are giving a wrong impression. Their are Salafi Hanafi/shaaffi scholars..
i.e. Hanafi and Shaffi scholars that adhere to the Dogmas of the Salaaf as opposed to the kalami groups Ashariyaah and Maturdi.

Amongst the Hanbali scholars you would find hardly any scholars, if not none, in history and especially nowadays that are not Saalafi (follow the aqeedah of the salaaf), as opposed two the two prevalent Kalam groups.

Secondly being a Salaafi does not mean in anyway they are opposed to purification of soul. I good example would be Ibn Qayyim, they do not go around calling themself sufi even you would find they don't use the word Salaafi to refer to themself as they are satisfied being just labelled as muslim. It is mostly amongst the layman that do that, or in instances in forum where further exposition of ones incliniation needs to be made clear, or as in an article the distinction of a subject matter needs to be exposited.
So they are not opposed to everything that people consider to come under tawassuf. It is because of the some bidaah and belief associated with some sufi groups and especially nowadays that it has become prevalent they warn against most if not all sufis and their tareeqas, they are fully aware of the differences withing sufi groups some being more extreme than the others.


Further, especially of this day and age nearly all sufis adhere to the ashari/maturidi creed in aqeedah, a quite new phenomenae.
This issue over aqeedah i.e. Allah(swt) names and attribute is not a salafi (ahul Sunnah) vs Sufi matter, it is actually an Ahul Sunnah vs Maturidi/Ashari matter something that is old and nothing new.
You would find abundant of scholars pre-ibn taymiyaah who where opposed these Kalami scholars, for those who like to associate this issue with him. Have a read in the saying of the past scholars on this issue. Their is enough of material around and if you are an arabic speaker than their is plenty.

I would say it started from the post ibn Kullab era who was one of the first detractors, died 241AH. He was not the last, nor he belonged to the asharite or maturidee.
An interesting fact is that some people started of calling the followers of Imaam Abul Hasan al-Ash’aree (260-324AH) being the founder of the asharite as Kullibist as it took onboard some of the kullibistic ideology.
There where scholars who made a distinction between later followers of ashari's an Imaam Abul Hasan al-Ash’aree himaelf based on one of his last books he wrote, al-ibanna, before he died.

That all folk.

Ibn Sina
16-04-08, 11:29 PM
this is the worst thread ever. whose bright idea was it anyway. given me a headache :S

ummah members should not be allowed to think, it causes too many problems. its the pie squared of evil.

too much thinking just creates doubts .... especially when ummah members be doin it :outta:

aboosait
17-04-08, 03:05 AM
.............too much thinking just creates doubts ....

Hope I am not mistaken if I say that your statement is from the Sufi thought.

aboosait
17-04-08, 03:19 AM
You follow Imam Abu Haneefa who is from the Tab'aeen ....................

No problem.

But


are those who have branded themselves as 'Hanafis', following Imam Abu Haneefa who is from the Tab'aeen ,

or

are they following the students of the imam or the students of the students

or

are they following the "hanafi fiqh" which contains whatever is written by any scholar who calls himsef a hanafi?

Hekmaa
17-04-08, 05:22 AM
Skilly you make a beautiful point, there are those who are salafi sufi. As there are Hanafi Salafi's and shafees and malikis.

Since when did the Maturidi and Ashari fall out of the definition of Ahl us sunnah?

Ok you have those who make qhuloo in Kalam, as you have Salafi's who make ghuloo in their manhaj.

chitownmuslim
17-04-08, 06:39 AM
Salafi aqida is very different from Athari Aqida, anyone who says they're the same has to seriously take some aqida lessons!!! i have tons of evidence to support this which i will post inshallah after i come home from work..

For example, consider the Aqida text of Imam Saffarini which is also known as "As-Saffariniyah", a classic Hanbali-Athari aqida text taught in many places in the islamic world.. Imam Saffarini clearly and explicitly states that tafweed al-ma'ana is the accepted madhab of the Atharis in this text, this can be confirmed if you take the time to read the books of Ibn Jawzi, Ibn Rajab, Ibn Hamdan, all of whom were Atharis, and rejected the tafweed al-kayf which the Salafis do!

Salafis do tafweed al-kayf, which is to affirm the sifat as their literal meaning "without comparing it to creation".. i will cite examples from Shaykh Uthaymeens commentary on Aqida Tahawiyyah as evidence

Bro Hekmaa: Salafis no matter where they are, west or east, reject tafweed al-ma'ana and consider it a bid'ah, so u wont find a Salafi who says as u stated, that they accept the sifat without assigning a meaning.. they affirm the literal meaning, but without giving it a "how-ness"

chitownmuslim
17-04-08, 06:46 AM
Bro Skilly, Ash'aris and Maturidis are the Ahlus Sunnah and have always been so.. the greatest Imams of Ahlus Sunnah followed these two schools..

If Asharis and Maturidis are not Ahlus Sunnah, how would u prove tawatur for the deen of Islam? or the Quran? take a look at the chains of transmission of any Islamic discipline or knowledge (aqida, fiqh, Quran, Hadith, etc) from the time of the Salaf til now, you'll notice that %99 of the people in those chains were Ashari/Maturidi/Sufi/Madhabi.. unless u think that for centuries the religion of Islam was being transmitted by deviants, people of bid'ah, than you have no choice but to say they are Ahlus Sunnah

*asiya*
17-04-08, 06:56 AM
this thread is supposed to be a discussion about each others understanding but its just sufis and those who follow deoband, talking about the salafis so far. speak for yourselves and not on behalf of others. If there are any salafis left on this forum then they can come and discuss and explain for themselves . otherwise this thread will just be like all the others round here , ppl just misquoting and giving false information about what salafi beleifs are.

chitownmuslim
17-04-08, 07:00 AM
this thread is supposed to be a discussion about each others understanding but its just sufis and those who follow deoband, talking about the salafis so far. speak for yourselves and not on behalf of others. If there are any salafis left on this forum then they can come and discuss and explain for themselves . otherwise this thread will just be like all the others round here , ppl just misquoting and giving false information about what salafi beleifs are.

Read the title of this thread "The Ultimate Sufi vs.Salafi Debate"

the best way to reach an understanding or compromise between two groups who differ with each other is to discuss the differences, and what each each group has against the other.. i know enough about Salafism/Wahhabism and theres thousands of Salafi websites which explain their beliefs, i could just go there if i wanted to know their "understanding".. but this is supposed to be a debate, if anyone doesnt like that or doesnt agree with it, fine, u dont have to participate..

al faqeer
17-04-08, 07:01 AM
Every muslim Is a Salafi who follow the Salaf translated Pious predecessors ( first 3 centuries) even though Ibn Taymiyyah rah Went to the extent of Calling the Fifth century the Late Salaf . So All muslims Try to Follow the Salaf .

But Non of them actually do esopecially Salafis who hand pick from the Salaf through their Khalaf scholars who are already known .

*asiya*
17-04-08, 07:07 AM
Read the title of this thread "The Ultimate Sufi vs.Salafi Debate"

the best way to reach an understanding or compromise between two groups who differ with each other is to discuss the differences, and what each each group has against the other.. i know enough about Salafism/Wahhabism and theres thousands of Salafi websites which explain their beliefs, i could just go there if i wanted to know their "understanding".. but this is supposed to be a debate, if anyone doesnt like that or doesnt agree with it, fine, u dont have to participate..


Every muslim Is a Salafi who follow the Salaf translated Pious predecessors ( first 3 centuries) even though Ibn Taymiyyah rah Went to the extent of Calling the Fifth century the Late Salaf . So All muslims Try to Follow the Salaf .

But Non of them actually do esopecially Salafis who hand pick from the Salaf through their Khalaf scholars who are already known .

like i said youre making this thread a waste of time, ur all just slagging off salafis and speaking without knowledge what u have stated about them is false . speak about what u beleive, neither of you are salafi, and then when and if the salafis turn up u can discuss with them and they can tell u their beleif themselves. in the meantime u can discuss what u follow.

al faqeer
17-04-08, 07:12 AM
like i said youre making this thread a waste of time, ur all just slagging off salafis and speaking without knowledge what u have stated about them is false . speak about what u beleive, neither of you are salafi, and then when and if the salafis turn up u can discuss with them and they can tell u their beleif themselves. in the meantime u can discuss what u follow.

I know the truth hurts sis :rolleyes: .

:)

al faqeer
17-04-08, 07:30 AM
Allah Exists Without a Place

Imam al-Hafidh al-Bayhaqi said in his book, Al-Asma'u was-Sifat, on page 400 [Kawthari edition]:



والذي روي في اّخر هذا الحديث إشارة إلى نفي المكان عن الله تعالى، وأن العبد أينما كان فهو في القرب والبعد من الله تعالى سواء، وأنه الظاهر فيصح إدراكه بالأدلة، الباطن فلا يصح إدراكه بالكون في مكان. واستدل بعض أصحابنا في نفي المكان عنه بقول النبي صلّى الله عليه و سلّم أنت الظاهر فليس فوقك شىء، وأنت الباطن فليس دونك شىء، وإذا لم يكن فوقه شىء ولا دونه شىء لم يكن في مكان



".... What was mentioned towards the end of the hadith is an indication of denying Allah has a place and denying the slave is alike to Allah, wherever he was, in proximity or remoteness. Allah, the Exalted, is adh-Dhahir--hence, it is valid to know about Him by proofs. Allah is al-Batin--hence, it is invalid that He would be in a place."

He also said:

"Some of our companions used as a proof to refute the place to Allah the saying of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam : 'You are adh-Dhahir and there is nothing above You, and You are al-Batin and there is nothing underneath You.' Therefore, if there is nothing above Him and nothing underneath Him, He is not in a place."



Similarly, regarding this same hadith [from Sahih Muslim]:


O Allah, You are the first: there is nothing before You; and You are the last: there is nothing after You. You are the Manifest (al-Zahir): there is nothing above You. You are the Hidden (al-Batin): there is nothing below You.



Al-Raghib al-Isfahani (d. 425 hegira) in his Mufradat al-Qur`an explained that Allah is the Manifest because His existence is intuitively evident to us through everything we see in the creation, while He is the Hidden because we can not comprehend the nature of His existence.

Mufradat al-Qur`an, (Damascus, Dar al-Qalam; and Beirut, Dar al Shamiyyah, 1992), p.131.



Imam Zayn ul-Abidin said:

وروى الحافظ اللغوي محمد مرتضى الزَّبيديُّ في شرح الإحياء بالإسناد المتصل أن الإمام عليًّا زين العابدين كان يقول: "سبحانك لا يحويك مكان" اهـ، وزين العابدين كان أفضل أهل البيت في زمانه

“glory be to you who has no place”

[documented in Imam Murtada Zabidis’s sharh al ihya ulum ud deen, with a mutasil isnad]





In Al-Farq Bayn al-Firaq under the chapter heading:


في بيان الاصول التى اجتمعت عليها اهل السنة



Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi says:


واجمعوا على انه لا يحويه مكان ولا يجرى عليه زمان خلاف قول من زعم من الشهامية والكرامية انه مماس لعرشه وقد قال امير المؤمنين على رضي الله عنه ان الله تعالى خلق العرش اظهارا لقدرته لا مكانا لذاته وقال ايضا قد كان ولا مكان وهو الآن على ما كان



rough translation:

"Allah created al-'arsh as an indication of His Power and did not take it as a place for Himself. Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]




Imam Ali [RA] is reported to have said:

تفسير مدارك التنزيل وحقائق التأويل/ النسفي
قول علي رضي الله عنه: الاستواء غير مجهول والتكييف غير معقول والإيمان به واجب والسؤال عنه بدعة لأنه تعالى كان ولا مكان فهو على ما كان قبل خلق المكان لم يتغير عما كان.


[rough translation]

“al-Istiwa is not unknown, and the modality is altogether inconceivable. To affirm it is obligatory and to ask questions about it is an innovation, this is because Allah was, when there was nothing, and He created place before there was a place, and He is in no need for a place”.

[Reported in Tafsir Madaarik al-Tanzeel wa Haqaa’iq al-Ta’weel by an-Nasafi, under surah Taha (20) ayat (5)]


قال الإمام علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه :-" من زعم أن إلهنا محدود فقد جهل الخالق المعبود" ا.هـ رواه أبو نعيم في حلية الأولياء



Ali bin Abi Talib RA is also attributed by Hafidh Abu Nu'aym in his Hilyatul Awliya as saying:

[rough translation]

"He who a claims that our Lord is limited is ignorant about the Creator who is worshipped."



Imam Ash-Shaafi'i stated,

" إنه تعالى كان ولا مكان فخلق المكان وهو على صفة الأزلية كما كان قبل خلقه المكان لا يجوز عليه التغيير في ذاته ولا التبديل في صفاته " اهـ. [إتحاف السادة المتقين (2/ 24 ]


"Verily, He the exalted was, without makaan (station or place). He created Makaan and He was upon His attribute of eternality just as He was before he created makaan. It is not permitted upon Him to change his essence or to change in His attributes."

[It-Haaf As-Saadah Al Muttaqeen 2/24]

Imaam Ibn Hibbaan in his Thiqaat says,

"الحمد لله الذي ليس له حد محدود فيحتوى، ولا له أجل معدود فيفنى، ولا يحيط به جوامع المكان ولا يشتمل عليه تواتر الزمان". الثقات (1/ 1)


He also stated in his Saheeh,

"كان- الله- ولا زمان ولا مكان"

"Allah was - without time and without makaan (station)."

وقال الشيخ الإمام أبو منصور عبد القاهر بن طاهر التميمي البغدادي الإسفراييني (429 هـ) ما نصه : "وأجمعوا- أي أهل السنة- على أنه- أي الله- لا يحويه مكان ولا يجري عليه زمان " اهـ.

aboosait
17-04-08, 07:43 AM
Every muslim Is a Salafi who follow the Salaf translated Pious predecessors ( first 3 centuries) even though Ibn Taymiyyah rah Went to the extent of Calling the Fifth century the Late Salaf . So All muslims Try to Follow the Salaf .

But Non of them actually do esopecially Salafis who hand pick from the Salaf through their Khalaf scholars who are already known .

But Iyou cant give that credit to the Hanafis following twhatever is written by any scholar who calls himsef a hanafi.

chitownmuslim
17-04-08, 07:51 AM
like i said youre making this thread a waste of time, ur all just slagging off salafis and speaking without knowledge what u have stated about them is false . speak about what u beleive, neither of you are salafi, and then when and if the salafis turn up u can discuss with them and they can tell u their beleif themselves. in the meantime u can discuss what u follow.

Sister, every word I say i have evidence to back it up with, u just show me where i was wrong, and i will be happy to show u the evidence from the Quran, Sunnah, and books of the scholars..



ur all just slagging off salafis and speaking without knowledge what u have stated about them is false


Please sister show me what I have stated that is false, Allah (swt) says in the Quran "Present your proof if ye are truthful".. plzzz I urge you show me what exactly I have said that was wrong, and why u think its wrong, and ill will be happy to show you the evidence I have, Jazaki Allahu Khayr :up:

aboosait
17-04-08, 07:57 AM
[QUOTE=al faqeer;2536400]


Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi says:

rough translation:

"Allah created al-'arsh as an indication of His Power and did not take it as a place for Himself. Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]


And Allah :Swt: Himself declares in seven instances in the Qur’an as "established on the throne of His almightiness" (, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4 and 57:4),


Al-A'raf (The Heights)


إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ يُغْشِي اللَّيْلَ النَّهَارَ يَطْلُبُهُ حَثِيثًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ وَالنُّجُومَ مُسَخَّرَاتٍ بِأَمْرِهِ أَلاَ لَهُ الْخَلْقُ وَالأَمْرُ تَبَارَكَ اللّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِين


7:54


VERILY, your Sustainer is God,

who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons,

and is established on the throne of His almightiness.

He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit,

with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command:

oh, verily, His is all creation and all command.

Hallowed is God,

the Sustainer of all the worlds!

al faqeer
17-04-08, 08:00 AM
[QUOTE=al faqeer;2536400]


Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi says:

rough translation:

"Allah created al-'arsh as an indication of His Power and did not take it as a place for Himself. Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]


And Allah :Swt: Himself declares in seven instances in the Qur’an as "established on the throne of His almightiness" (, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4 and 57:4),


Al-A'raf (The Heights)


إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ يُغْشِي اللَّيْلَ النَّهَارَ يَطْلُبُهُ حَثِيثًا وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ وَالنُّجُومَ مُسَخَّرَاتٍ بِأَمْرِهِ أَلاَ لَهُ الْخَلْقُ وَالأَمْرُ تَبَارَكَ اللّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِين


7:54


VERILY, your Sustainer is God,

who has created the heavens and the earth in six aeons,

and is established on the throne of His almightiness.

He covers the day with the night in swift pursuit,

with the sun and the moon and the stars subservient to His command:

oh, verily, His is all creation and all command.

Hallowed is God,

the Sustainer of all the worlds!


Dont take things litteral without an explination aboosait , I refuted All Mujassims in that post of mine .

al faqeer
17-04-08, 08:03 AM
But Iyou cant give that credit to the Hanafis following twhatever is written by any scholar who calls himsef a hanafi.

Same applies to Salafis .

*asiya*
17-04-08, 08:21 AM
Sister, every word I say i have evidence to back it up with, u just show me where i was wrong, and i will be happy to show u the evidence from the Quran, Sunnah, and books of the scholars..



Please sister show me what I have stated that is false, Allah (swt) says in the Quran "Present your proof if ye are truthful".. plzzz I urge you show me what exactly I have said that was wrong, and why u think its wrong, and ill will be happy to show you the evidence I have, Jazaki Allahu Khayr :up:

im not a salafi and im not going to speak on their behalf, but i have discussed with enough of them to know that what u and many others have stated about them in this thread is not at all correct. im just saying the whole purpose of this thread is for sufis and salafis to state and discuss their beleifs, what is the point of a whole thread where non salafis are saying salafis do this, and salafis beleive that when thats not the case at all.

im sure u wouldnt like me to sit here and say sufis do biddah, and they are astray because they believe their shaikhs are the awliyyah of Allah and they beleive that the al-abdaal have knowledge of the unseen and one head "awliyyah" who they claim is called al qutb al akbar and that they seek his help and they seek help from the abdaal and beleive in akhyaar the seven Abraaar, and that they beleive that drinking from their teachers vessels, or wearing their garments will also give them knowledge of the unseen, ability to recite Quran and so on. and that they have intermediaries between them selves and Allah ta ala, and that they claim their shayookh can see into peoples hearts and have special knowledge.. no im sure u wouldnt like me to start bringing all those matters,

but this is exactly what is going on here against the salafi brothers and sisters. let them state their own beleifs and u state yours.

Hekmaa
17-04-08, 08:24 AM
Salafi aqida is very different from Athari Aqida, anyone who says they're the same has to seriously take some aqida lessons!!! i have tons of evidence to support this which i will post inshallah after i come home from work..

For example, consider the Aqida text of Imam Saffarini which is also known as "As-Saffariniyah", a classic Hanbali-Athari aqida text taught in many places in the islamic world.. Imam Saffarini clearly and explicitly states that tafweed al-ma'ana is the accepted madhab of the Atharis in this text, this can be confirmed if you take the time to read the books of Ibn Jawzi, Ibn Rajab, Ibn Hamdan, all of whom were Atharis, and rejected the tafweed al-kayf which the Salafis do!

Salafis do tafweed al-kayf, which is to affirm the sifat as their literal meaning "without comparing it to creation".. i will cite examples from Shaykh Uthaymeens commentary on Aqida Tahawiyyah as evidence

Bro Hekmaa: Salafis no matter where they are, west or east, reject tafweed al-ma'ana and consider it a bid'ah, so u wont find a Salafi who says as u stated, that they accept the sifat without assigning a meaning.. they affirm the literal meaning, but without giving it a "how-ness"

In most part this is true.

There are ones that accept Tafweed al ma'ana, like the salafi scholars of Indo Pakistan. Also as difference how they define the how-ness is very much like how the atharis define tafweed al ma'ana. That what Allah swt describes about himself is there, so he has a yad, how and what comprises the yad is not known.

As with regards to Sr Asiya's comment, who according to you who has commented is sufi and who is deobandi? reason i ask, because i think it is a good test to see if the writings of people give that impression, that is if you can block out your past interaction with them.

Eemaan
17-04-08, 08:24 AM
Salman, bright spark, what now? :o

you opened pandoras box :(

aboosait
17-04-08, 08:33 AM
Imam Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi says:

"Allah created al-'arsh as an indication of His Power and did not take it as a place for Himself. Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]


And Allah :Swt: Himself declares in seven instances in the Qur’an as "established on the throne of His almightiness" (, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4 and 57:4),

Dont take things litteral without an explination aboosait , I refuted All Mujassims in that post of mine .

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

2:256


THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.

Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error:

hence, he who rejects the powers of evil

and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing,

which shall never give way:

for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

On the strength of the above categorical prohibition of coercion (ikrah) in anything that pertains to faith or religion, I have just pointed out where you are mistaken and do not wish to argue with you in this matter.

al faqeer
17-04-08, 08:41 AM
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

2:256


THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.

Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error:

hence, he who rejects the powers of evil

and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing,

which shall never give way:

for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

On the strength of the above categorical prohibition of coercion (ikrah) in anything that pertains to faith or religion, I have just pointed out where you are mistaken and do not wish to argue with you in this matter.

Bro taking Quran ayas without Explaining your point really proves nothing , You are no where more learned then the scholars of Ahlus sunnah who I have quoted with reference .

So try another one .

al faqeer
17-04-08, 08:43 AM
im not a salafi and im not going to speak on their behalf, but i have discussed with enough of them to know that what u and many others have stated about them in this thread is not at all correct. im just saying the whole purpose of this thread is for sufis and salafis to state and discuss their beleifs, what is the point of a whole thread where non salafis are saying salafis do this, and salafis beleive that when thats not the case at all.

im sure u wouldnt like me to sit here and say sufis do biddah, and they are astray because they believe their shaikhs are the awliyyah of Allah and they beleive that the al-abdaal have knowledge of the unseen and one head "awliyyah" who they claim is called al qutb al akbar and that they seek his help and they seek help from the abdaal and beleive in akhyaar the seven Abraaar, and that they beleive that drinking from their teachers vessels, or wearing their garments will also give them knowledge of the unseen, ability to recite Quran and so on. and that they have intermediaries between them selves and Allah ta ala, and that they claim their shayookh can see into peoples hearts and have special knowledge.. no im sure u wouldnt like me to start bringing all those matters,

but this is exactly what is going on here against the salafi brothers and sisters. let them state their own beleifs and u state yours.

No sorry most of what we say is true if not all , The Salafis are totally Not salafis In reality they Follow The Khalaf not the Salaf its so obvious . For those who want to see :rolleyes: .

aboosait
17-04-08, 10:39 AM
Bro taking Quran ayas without Explaining your point really proves nothing , You are no where more learned then the scholars of Ahlus sunnah who I have quoted with reference .

So try another one .

Thats again the Sufi Way I suppose.

Rejecting the clear Word of Allah for the sake of the sayings of your 'scholars'

Ok, if you feel that I have to explain my point, let me tell you again that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'la Himself declares in seven instances in the Qur’an as

"established on the throne of His almightiness"

whereas your belief is based on the allegation that

"Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]"

al faqeer
17-04-08, 11:37 AM
Thats again the Sufi Way I suppose.

Rejecting the clear Word of Allah for the sake of the sayings of your 'scholars'

Ok, if you feel that I have to explain my point, let me tell you again that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'la Himself declares in seven instances in the Qur’an as

"established on the throne of His almightiness"

whereas your belief is based on the allegation that

"Allah existed eternally without a place, and He now is as He ever was" [i.e. without a place]"


No We dont use Quran ayas too compliment our beliefs .

From the Quran I am sure you know the story of Sayidina Muusa Who asked to see Allah SWT right ?

What happened to the Mountain Aboosait ? Was That above the throne too ?

DALEHYR
17-04-08, 12:14 PM
this is the worst thread ever. whose bright idea was it anyway. given me a headache :S

ummah members should not be allowed to think, it causes too many problems. its the pie squared of evil.

What kind of pie is that? Never tried it yet... :)

Tosh
17-04-08, 12:59 PM
Assalamu alaikum everyone

Our aim when using Qur'an and Sunnah, the guide sent to us by Allah and the teacher sent to us by Allah, is to follow it. We don't form beliefs and then use the Qur'an and Hadith to support them. May Allah correct all of our intentions, me first (!) and allow us to stay on the straight path. Ameen.

So, if the correct intention is there, please continue and use wisdom (hikmah). There are some differences that are not easily reconciliable between the groups who label themself 'salafi' and 'sufi' not as an attempt to separate themselves from the ummah, but as a means to group and protect noble beliefs and practises. In reality however, it has become a means to separate, we don't even attend each others gatherings!

Sometimes I have heard people completely write off a scholar off for disagreeing with one's own chosen scholar on one aspect. Surely there is room for difference, whether valid, or by either scholar making a mistake (the aim should only be to correct this mistake not destroy honour). A true scholar of either leaning would not allow foul language to leave their mouths (or typing fingers), and we as aspiring students of these scholars should do the same inshaAllah.

The actual differences spoken of earlier are not what are usually spoken of. It is usually the case that we make a claim in support of Allah (subhana wa Ta'ala, Rabb ul Izza, Azza wa Jal), the Qur'an, or the Prophet Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam), and then say that the 'other side' disagrees. Surely let them make the claim themselves, for a false accusation (let alone loads of them) is dangerous territory when Allah (subhana wa Ta'ala, Rabb ul Izza, Azza wa Jal) is aware of all things.

Our aim through debate is to achieve the Truth, Al Haqq, that Allah swt has sent down, and has exemplified by the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Then after this, when there is difference, the other reason to share ideas and reasons for difference is to promote tolerance. We don't tolerate crimes against the Deen, but we should accept that we don't want to fight forever, a higher aim is to unite between us, and at the very least co-exist, inshaAllah.

It could be our manner in this thread which earns the Pleasure of Allah swt, or earns the Wrath of Allah swt. I know which one I would rather achieve. May Allah swt make it easy for us. Ameen.

Please maintain good character and conduct. Allah swt is all-Aware of how you treat your fellow Muslims, and all is being recorded. SubhanAllah! I fear greatly for the one who risks his/her good deeds and Paradise for the sake of arguing.

May Allah forgive me for any mistakes that I have made. Ameen. And all the good is from Him.
Allahu Alim. Allah knows best.

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.


Note: Claims such as 'our scholars are Ahlus Sunnah' or 'our Scholars say and therefore it must be' are not going to necessarily be valid. We need to think through our intention before posting such things for the sake of making a point. We cannot announce someone a Kaafir for not accepting our chosen scholar(s) as a great scholar, they don't have the same relationship with our chosen scholars, nor have they experienced time with them necessarily. So how can we expect everyone to see everything from our own point of view. Recognising a particular person as pious (except a limited few - such as the Prophet Muhammad SalAllahu alayhi wa sallam) is not a prerequisite of being Muslim.

HelpingHand
17-04-08, 01:21 PM
Assalamu alaikum everyone

Our aim when using Qur'an and Sunnah, the guide sent to us by Allah and the teacher sent to us by Allah, is to follow it. We don't form beliefs and then use the Qur'an and Hadith to support them. May Allah correct all of our intentions, me first (!) and allow us to stay on the straight path. Ameen.


W-Salam,

That is an extremely grave accusation?

Can you please be straight and tell us who you are pointing to and evidence of this accusation?

aboosait
17-04-08, 02:20 PM
No We dont use Quran ayas too compliment our beliefs .

From the Quran I am sure you know the story of Sayidina Muusa Who asked to see Allah SWT right ?

What happened to the Mountain Aboosait ? Was That above the throne too ?

No. I dont get your point. kindly elaborate.

:salams

MMS
17-04-08, 02:24 PM
Salman, bright spark, what now? :o

you opened pandoras box :(

lol well this is just going swimmingly isnt it :p
but alhamdulillah, some people on here make me feel so mature :rotfl:
its not often i get to feel that way :o

ibn suleman
17-04-08, 02:27 PM
lol well this is just going swimmingly isnt it :p
but alhamdulillah, some people on here make me feel so mature :rotfl:
its not often i get to feel that way :o

LOL


and i wonder if anyone has had an eman boost reading this thread so far?

*asiya*
17-04-08, 02:32 PM
LOL


and i wonder if anyone has had an eman boost reading this thread so far? i doubt it & we`re still waiting for even one "salafi" to post their beleifs in this thread ... which speaks volumes about the content so far..

HelpingHand
17-04-08, 02:35 PM
i doubt it & we`re still waiting for even one "salafi" to post their beleifs in this thread ... which speaks volumes about the content so far..


Asslamo Allaikum,

Perhaps because they are fearful of the indefensible.

*asiya*
17-04-08, 02:40 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

Perhaps because they are fearful of the indefensible.

:wswrwb: or perhaps it is because 99% of them have been banned from this forum in the last 18 months and because there is nothing worth discussing with ppl who cannot hold a debate or a discussion without slandering the other party involved. and may Allah ta ala reward them all for staying out of such nonsense amin.

as imam as shafi said

"Say what you will in abuse,
My silence is an answer to the scoundrel
I am not devoid of an answer, but:
It is not necessary for a lion to answer the dogs."

" Whenever any people of desires came to Mâlik he would say to them, “As for me, I am upon clarity as regards my religion. As for you, you are a doubter, go and argue with another doubter like yourself.”

aboosait
17-04-08, 02:43 PM
i doubt it & we`re still waiting for even one "salafi" to post their beleifs in this thread ... which speaks volumes about the content so far..

Perhaps you joined late. You have not read this?:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2533831&postcount=49


And these refutations of Sufi propaganda?:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2534964&postcount=108

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2534934&postcount=103

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2534788&postcount=96


Asslamo Allaikum,

Perhaps because they are fearful of the indefensible.

:salams

Hekmaa
17-04-08, 02:47 PM
أصل التوحيد و ما يصح الاعتقاد عليه يجب أن يقول:

The basics of monotheism (Tawheed), and that which makes faith (Iman) valid, that one says:


1- آمنت بالله و ملائكته و كتبه و رسله و البعث بعد الموت و القدر خيره و شره من الله تعالى , والحساب و الميزان , والجنة والنار حق كله.

1. I believe in Allah (God), His angels, His books, His messengers, resurrection after death, fate, whether good and bad is from Allah Ta’ala, the accounting, the scale, hellfire, and paradise, all is true.


2- والله تعالى واحد لا من طريق العدد ولكن من طريق أنه لا شريك له قل هو الله أحد الله الصمد لم يلد ولم يولد ولم يكن له كفواً أحد.

2. Allah is One, not in a numerical sense, but in the sense that He has no partner – "Say: He is God The One; God the Samad ; He begets not, nor was He begotten; and there is nothing comparable to Him."




3- لا يشبه شيئاً من الأشياء من خلقه ولا يشبهه شيء من خلقه.

3. He does not resemble anything of His creation, nor does anything among His creation resemble Him.


4- لم يزل ولا يزال بأسمائه وصفاته الذاتية والفعلية.

4. He has eternally existed, and will everlastingly exist, with His names and attributes, both relating to Him and His actions –not subject to change-.


5- أما الذاتية فالحياة والقدرة والعلم والكلام والسمع والبصر والارادة , وأما الفعلية فالتخليق والترزيق و الانشاء والابداع والصنع وغير ذلك من صفات الفعل .

5. As for the attributes relating to Him, they are: Life, Power, Knowledge, kalam, Hearing, Sight, and Will. As for those relating to His actions, they are: Creating, Sustenance, Originating, Making, Fashioning, and other attributes of actions.


6- لم يزل ولا يزال بأسمائه وصفاته لم يحدث له اسم ولا صفة.

6. He has eternally existed, and will everlastingly exist, with His attributes and names; neither attribute nor name was created –or subject to change- .


7- لم يزل عالما بعلمه والعلم صفة في الأزل.

7. He has eternally been The All-Knowing, by of His knowledge, and His knowledge (just like the rest of His attributes) is an eternal attribute.


8- وقادراً بقدرته والقدرة صفة في الأزل.

8. He has eternally been attributed with Power, by His Power, and His power is an eternal attribute.


9- ومتكلما بكلامه, والكلام صفة في الأزل.

9. He has eternally been attributed with Al-Kalam, by His Speech and His Speech is an eternal attribute.




10- وخالقا بتخليقه والتخليق صفة في الأزل.

10. He has eternally been The Creator, by Creating, and His creating is an eternal attribute.



11- وفاعلا بفعله , والفعل صفة في الأزل والفاعل هو الله تعالى, والفعل صفة في الأزل والمفعول مخلوق, وفعل الله تعالى غير مخلوق.

11- He wills for actions and things to happen, His will to initiate a certain thing is an eternal attribute, He is The One willing for it to happen. His will is an eternal attribute; the object of His Will is creation, and His action is non-created.



12- وصفاته في الأزل غير محدثة ولا مخلوقة, فمن قال: إنها مخلوقة أو محدثة, أو وقف, أو شك فيها فهو كافر بالله تعالى.

12- His attributes existed in eternity; they did not exist after being non-existent, nor were they created. Whoever says that they are created, existed after being non-existent, or is uncertain about the attributes and doubts them, is a disbeliever in Allah Ta’ala.

aboosait
17-04-08, 03:01 PM
.............................................

as imam as shafi said

"Say what you will in abuse,
My silence is an answer to the scoundrel
[B]I am not devoid of an answer, but:
It is not necessary for a lion to answer the dogs."

" Whenever any people of desires came to Mâlik he would say to them, “As for me, I am upon clarity as regards my religion. As for you, you are a doubter, go and argue with another doubter like yourself.”

:jkk:


:wswrwb: or perhaps it is because 99% of them have been banned from this forum in the last 18 months.........

[FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="Blue"]Why cant they boldly rename the site as "SOOFIUMMAH.COM" in line with sites such as "sunniforum.com" ?


....... and because there is nothing worth discussing with ppl who cannot hold a debate or a discussion without slandering the other party involved...........

Moreover, the same person reproduces the same CP over and over in different threads leaving no alternative but to CP the answers from our previous posts. The former CP is left ignored but the latter CP is sure to draw an infraction.

Unless the moderation team is revamped (for the islamic threads) and the organisers take a firm stand on their furure plans, I think I too will have to say goodbye.

:salams

MMS
17-04-08, 03:19 PM
seriously, who are the salafis who have been banned??? :confused:

AbuMubarak
17-04-08, 03:21 PM
quite a few who i miss dearly

some i am glad are gone

MMS
17-04-08, 03:24 PM
quite a few who i miss dearly

some i am glad are gone

for instance??? :rubeyes:

Ibn Khattab
17-04-08, 03:25 PM
Omar :outta:

AbuMubarak
17-04-08, 03:25 PM
and i wonder if anyone has had an eman boost reading this thread so far?and that is a very important point akhi

we like to show how much knowledge we know, or defend our group, but rarely is there a search for the truth and rarely do these discussions open up someone's heart to obey Allah more

it was the children of israel who didnt break into sects until AFTER knowledge had come to them

we must be mindful of knowledge, because just like wealth and beauty, it is a test to see how we handle it.

i remember one of the earlier scholars said there are three types of knowledge

one, which makes you a better servant to Allah
two, which is haram and harmful
three, useless knowledge, which neither benefits nor harms, but wastes time (which is also a harm)

so as we seek knowledge and engage in these discussions, we should have the niyah of increasing as a servant of Allah, NOT trying to out-maneuver our opponent

AbuMubarak
17-04-08, 03:27 PM
for instance??? :rubeyes:whats the purpose, sis?

AbuMubarak
17-04-08, 03:29 PM
i doubt it & we`re still waiting for even one "salafi" to post their beleifs in this thread ... which speaks volumes about the content so far..

you guys are clapping with one hand?

no opposing view?

after all of these posts?

who are you debating? yourselves?

where is my little sister? i think her name as sis niqaabi or something like that

MMS
17-04-08, 03:31 PM
whats the purpose, sis?

i just canny think of any thats why :p apart from one, but he was banned because of insults towards some sisters, but he wasn't a main poster anyway so i dunno :scratch:

Abu Muslim
17-04-08, 03:31 PM
An-Nisa (The Women)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ آمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ وَالْكِتَابِ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ مِن قَبْلُ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِاللّهِ وَمَلاَئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلاَلاً بَعِيدً

ا (4:136)

<b>
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger,

and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger

and the scripture which He sent to those before (him).

Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment,

hath gone far, far astray.
</b>

You know when you posted that akhee, I HAD NO IDEA why you posted a random ayah in the Quran and what that had in regards to my post about popcorn, but I thought I would leave it cos give you some barakah of posting an ayah of the Quran..



And these refutations of Sufi propaganda?:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2534964&postcount=108

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2534934&postcount=103




But then you quoted me as Soofee propoganda :/

Me, soofee? LOL

I am not soofee akhee, just go onto Dhikrullah website and forum [which has a BIG FAT UPON QURAN AND SUNNAH SLOGAN ON IT] and you can work out yourself..

sapphire_blue
17-04-08, 03:34 PM
But then you quoted me as Soofee propoganda :/



Ha ha - that is funny . .

Unlike the rest of this thread - which is not very funny at all . . :nono:

aboosait
17-04-08, 03:49 PM
You know when you posted that akhee, I HAD NO IDEA why you posted a random ayah in the Quran and what that had in regards to my post about popcorn, but I thought I would leave it cos give you some barakah of posting an ayah of the Quran..



But then you quoted me as Soofee propoganda :/

Me, soofee? LOL

I am not soofee akhee, just go onto Dhikrullah website and forum [which has a BIG FAT UPON QURAN AND SUNNAH SLOGAN ON IT] and you can work out yourself..

CPS error regretted. The other posts in that list of links were refutation of Soofi propaganda and by oversight this one has been included in the list.

The moderators are requested to delete this http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=103
from the above list.

Thank you for pointing out the error.

:jkk:

:salams

salahuldin786
17-04-08, 05:50 PM
Who and What is a Salafi
Nuh Ha Mim Keller
http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida11.htm

The Great Asha`ari Scholars
http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/tabyin_kadhib.htm

salahuldin786
17-04-08, 06:03 PM
Q.) Can you please explain who are Wahabies (is this a sect), are they also Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/wsalafi1.htm
by Mufti Ebrahim Desai from central masjid



Imam Zaid Shakir: Answer to a “Salafi” Brother
http://www.hahmed.com/blog/2007/11/26/imam-zaid-shakir-answer-to-a-%E2%80%9Csalafi%E2%80%9D-brother/

chitownmuslim
17-04-08, 06:26 PM
i doubt it & we`re still waiting for even one "salafi" to post their beleifs in this thread ... which speaks volumes about the content so far..

That doesnt mean anything, its just a coincidence probably... go search oon google and you will most definitely see dozens of Salafi websites and forums and will read countless articles of Salafis declaring all other Muslims as deviants, polythiests, people of innovation, etc.. yet u probably wont find any Sunni-Sufi websites declaring kufr and bidah on others!

This fitnah was started and spread by them in the first place, they spoke first and kept speaking and Ahlus Sunnah had no choice but to reply to them and refute their claims.. at a time when Muslims so desperately need to unite, and ALL Islamic groups Sunnis, Sufis, Hanafis, Malikis, Ikhwanis, Zaydis, Ibadis, and others, were all trying to put aside their differnces and try to unite at least on a political level but the Salafis stood against that and saw that it was their top priority to "refute" and attack other Islamic groups and individuals..

Salafis did start this sister, search the internet and you will see, go to there websites and forums; allaahuakbar.in, Salafitalk, SPubs, Ahya, Salafimanhaj, etc.. 90 percent of the content on these websites is directed towards attacking other Islamic groups while 10 percent is directed to aqida, fiqh, and knowledge, which is more important

Tosh
17-04-08, 10:11 PM
Assalamu alaikum everyone

Our aim when using Qur'an and Sunnah, the guide sent to us by Allah and the teacher sent to us by Allah, is to follow it. We don't form beliefs and then use the Qur'an and Hadith to support them. May Allah correct all of our intentions, me first (!) and allow us to stay on the straight path. Ameen.



W-Salam,

That is an extremely grave accusation?

Can you please be straight and tell us who you are pointing to and evidence of this accusation?

Salaam

I did make a very strong statement, and I didn't have a particular people in mind. Outright, that is a very strong statement. But sometimes we do something and then say, "Look, this is what the hadith says, see, see, thats why we do it". This could be better explained by saying, "This hadith says this, thats why we do it". The first leaves the option to ignore hadith that don't suit us which is absolutely horrific (but not as bad as the statement suggests). The second is a sincere effort to follow the sunnah via the ahadith. I saw a leaflet recently that had this style, perhaps there was a reason, I just think its bad practice for any Muslim or Islamic literature.

SubhanAllah, I didn't mean to offend anyone, I really didn't, so I apologise if i did.

I hope that is ok. May Allah forgive me for any mistakes. Ameen.

Allahu Alim. Allah knows best.
Salaam, peace




3. Excessive sarcasm will not be tolerated.

It really shouldn't be. Its on the rise brothers and sisters. There are many trying to speak and keep reminding us, but we don't seem to be listening. Please, for the sake of my Lord and your Lord, keep good conduct.

Tosh
17-04-08, 11:01 PM
Abu Zahrah from United States - excerpts from a blog comment...


If one enters into any affair with the mentality of “GROUP” then they will find fault with anything that may appear to be in “opposition” to what is the normal “GROUP” thought or practice. We need to rise above the “GROUP” “US/THEM” mentality and learn to live with the intellectual, scholastic, spiritual differences in this Ummah. There have come and gone many many Scholars from various walks of life and seen things in the Deen different from other great Scholars of their times. Its not for me here to go into detail about that, but just study the Deen, at a serious level and you will find the truth of this matter.

It sounds like this was the intent fro the questions in the first place. Muslims, rise above your one Shaikh, rise above your one book (that you have read), rise above your one Masjid (that you ONLY attend), rise above your province, rise above your one Ayah or Hadith that you want to use against everyone outside of your “GROUP” and make a serious, sincere effort towards your ONE Lord. This is what it is all about at the end of the day. If one differs with Imam Zaid, or Shaikh Ibn Taymiyyah or any other, that is fine, Allah (SWT) will not question us on that great day about these well respected, honored men of Islam, but Allah (SWT) will question us about us, so focus on that while benefitting from what we can gain from these men, and take their good and leave other than that.

May Allah (SWT) guide us all to what is pleasing to Him.

Ameen.

Z-Blade
17-04-08, 11:17 PM
Abu Zahrah from United States - excerpts from a blog comment...



Ameen.

:salams,

MashaAllah excellent post akhi and I agree fully. It's all about searching for what is most correct sincerely and none of this group mentality business. That's why I don't label myself as Sufi/Salafi/Sulafi but I would say I'm Hanafi since that's the madhhab I follow and my Aqida - I follow the Aqidah of the Salaf - i.e. of the Prophet :saw: (note Salafi Aqidah btw). I also agree with taking the good from anyone - whether Salafi or Sufi or anyone - and that's what Ahmed Deedat says in his talks ("you have something good? I'll take it. You have something bad? Keep it with you") and that's what Muslims do and that's what I try to do beidhnillah :'). But the real label is Muslim - and all are Muslim who submit to Allah fully and search for The Truth sincerely and always have an open mind and are humble.

:jkk: and let me echo the dua: May Allah (:Swt:) guide us all to what is pleasing to Him. Ameen.

That post is kind of like my previous post :') :



:salams,

Yep people could actually benefit if they listened/read with an open mind instead of trying to look at the negatives and refute every little minor point. It's like if I was to read the Quran and had the intention of finding mistakes in there while ignoring everything else - all the good that is in there, my mind is bound to lead me to a false conclusion and that is how kufar are:

2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

2:26
إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يَسْتَحْيِي أَن يَضْرِبَ مَثَلاً مَّا بَعُوضَةً فَمَا فَوْقَهَا فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ فَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَيَقُولُونَ مَاذَا أَرَادَ اللَّهُ بِهَـذَا مَثَلاً يُضِلُّ بِهِ كَثِيراً وَيَهْدِي بِهِ كَثِيراً وَمَا يُضِلُّ بِهِ إِلاَّ الْفَاسِقِينَ
Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allah intend by this parable?" By it, He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are rebellious.

Close mindedness and pride are qualities of a kafir, may Allah help us and guide us, Ameen.



Wassalam.

RashidD
18-04-08, 12:44 AM
Z-blade i thought u were ashari/ maturidi?

Z-Blade
18-04-08, 12:50 AM
:salams,

Can the more knowledgeable brothers and sisters comment on this?! (posted by another brother in this forum):

"Late-Eighties & Early Nineties:

During this period Salafiyyah openly called Taqleed and sticking to a Madhab Shirk and destroyed the social fabric and cohesion of Muslim Ummah in the West. This absurd position was untenable and traditional Islam and its Ulama fought back and in less then 3 decades this version of Salafiyyah is no longer untenable and you have hundreds of books, articles, web-sites, speeches with evidence of Madhabs so no one but the absolutely absurd now hold this position.

During this time the lives of hundreds of Muslims were destroyed, families broken, marriages destroyed due to extremes of Salafiyyah across the West and this is not hidden from people.

Brothers & Sisters following Salafiyyah became:

a) Followers of Hanbali Madhab (as the Scholars of Najd [Saudia] always were)

b) Sufees

c) Isolationists (and became stuck in 80’s/90’s Salafiyyah)

d) Not following Madhabs (strictly) but tolerant of other Muslims and accepted Tassawuff (particularly of Ibnul Qayyim (RA))

Post 9/11:

The base of Salafiyyah was rapidly eroded and its very existence undermined and so they are now sticking to the one of the fundamental differences between them and the rest i.e. Aqeedah issues …Aqeedah defines and unites Brothers & Sisters in category a, b & c

In Islam three schools of Aqeedah have always been accepted:

1) Asha’rees: They do Ta’weel of attributes (Sifaat) of Allah (SWT)
e.g. they say that verses where Hands of Allah (SWT) could mean Power of Allah (SWT)

2) Maturedees: They also do Ta’weel but differ slightly with Asharees

3) Salaf: They refused to make Ta’weel and practised Tafweedh which meant that they consigned the true meanings and modality (how’ness) of these verses pertaining to Hands of Allah (SWT) etc. both to Allah. In summary these said that we don’t want to debate with you as to what these verses mean we simply say, “We believe in them and only Allah (SWT) knows truly what these verses actually mean and since Allah (SWT) & His Rasool (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) remain silent on this, we will also remain silent about them” and we will also not interpret these to mean “Power etc.”….we simply believe in them and remain silent

IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE: The Salaf disagreed with both 1 & 2 and told them to avoid Ta’weel (interpretations) and the chiefs amongst the Salaf were off course Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (RA).

Salafees have errored in two ways:

4) They have gone away from the Aqeedah of Salaf and adopted the Aqeedah of Shaykhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) which is of saying the meaning of these attributes (Sifaat) of Allah (SWT) should be done on Dhahir (Literally/Obvious/Manifest) but the modality (how’ness) should be consigned to Allah (SWT) BUT since they say at the same time that Allah is nothing like the creation, it is not appropriate to call Salafees anthromorphists and Mujassima.

5) They have misinterpreted Tafweedh to mean “Denial” of attributes (Sifaat) of Allah (SWT) i.e. anyone who doesn’t interpret them on the Dhahir has deviancy in Aqeedah

Based on 5 & 6 Salafees openly and blatantly call everyone who disagrees with their Aqeedah deviant including the Deobandees (of India/Pakistan) who clearly practise Tafweedh and not Ta’weel.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=22473&ln=eng&txt=deoband

Many Hanbali scholars like Ibn Jawzi (RA) who Salafees are fond of quoting clearlypractsied Tafweedh and Salafees drop his Aqeedah works like hot-coal!

When the Salafees are quoting the Salaf against the Asharees/Maturedess the statements are correct but the problem is that the Salaf didn’t practise Dhaahir…That’s why its so difficult to get through and until these two problems:

A) Aqeedah issues and Aqeedah of Salaf

B) Labelling everyone as deviants

are solved, Muslim will unfortunately and regrettably continue to fight. No amount of pledges will bridge the gap when you continue to call people deviants.

P.S: It is not my intention to get into Aqeedah debates with anyone as I simply affirm my belief upon the book of Allah (SWT) & Sunnah & consign both the meanings and modality of Mutashebehaat to Allah (SWT)…If Allah (SWT) and His Rasool (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) didn’t discuss it then I also prefer to remain Silent and save my tongue from indulging into matters which don’t concern my Aakhira.

P.P.S: As someone who came from it & saw it (on its peak), there is no doubt that Salafiyyah has declined and continues its downward descent daily...

http://umarlee.com/2007/01/18/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-salafi-dawah-in-the-us-part-1/ "

:jkk:

Wassalam.

Z-Blade
18-04-08, 12:56 AM
Z-blade i thought u were ashari/ maturidi?

:salams,

That's what I thought but it's silly to say I am this or that when I haven't studied those schools of thought in depth. But I know majority of Muslims were/are Ashari/Maturidi but I'll just say I have Athari Aqidah (since it seems to be the safest) until I gain more knowledge on this :'). I'm just a layman at the end of the day though - I'll just follow what I've learnt so I don't really have a proper "label" for my Aqidah - but I definitely do not agree with the dhahirite (literalist) type of Aqidah. Allahu A'lam.

Wassalam.

aboosait
18-04-08, 02:07 AM
Who and What is a Salafi
Nuh Ha Mim Keller
http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/aqida11.htm

The Great Asha`ari Scholars
http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/tabyin_kadhib.htm

The author Nuh Ha Mim Keller is an anti-salafi. You are recomending a mathematics professor to answer a question in Biology.

aboosait
18-04-08, 02:09 AM
[B]Imam Zaid Shakir:.............

Is he the fifth Imam?

aboosait
18-04-08, 02:19 AM
But sometimes we do something and then say, "Look, this is what the hadith says, see, see, thats why we do it".

This could be better explained by saying, "This hadith says this, thats why we do it"..

I have heard on many occasions the mullahs of a particular group first explain their viewpoint and say in the end: "(isee liye Allah Ta'ala farmata hai) And thats why Allah s.w.t. says,...."

:salams

al-ghazalli
18-04-08, 04:26 AM
1) Asha’rees: They do Ta’weel of attributes (Sifaat) of Allah (SWT)
e.g. they say that verses where Hands of Allah (SWT) could mean Power of Allah (SWT)

2) Maturedees: They also do Ta’weel but differ slightly with Asharees

3) Salaf: They refused to make Ta’weel and practised Tafweedh which meant that they consigned the true meanings and modality (how’ness) of these verses pertaining to Hands of Allah (SWT) etc. both to Allah. In summary these said that we don’t want to debate with you as to what these verses mean we simply say, “We believe in them and only Allah (SWT) knows truly what these verses actually mean and since Allah (SWT) & His Rasool (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) remain silent on this, we will also remain silent about them” and we will also not interpret these to mean “Power etc.”….we simply believe in them and remain silent

Sidi Z-Blade this is mostly correct at least the part I quoted. The Ashari's have only made ta`wil when there was an actualy need to refute the innovators or else the standard Ashari position is consign the meaning to Allah, and we do not interpret them in such a way that negates their reality.

Imam Suyuti (Rahimullah) states this in his al-Itiqan;

قال الإمام جلال الدين السيوطي في كتابه "الإتقان في علوم القرآن" (2/6

ومن المتشابه آيات الصفات ... وجمهور أهل السنة، منهم السلف وأهل الحديث على الإيمان بها، وتفويض معناها والمراد .منها إلى الله تعالى ولا نفسرها مع تنزيهنا له عن حقيقتها" . اهـ


Furthermore our Ulema have always stated that the The 'Azima is Tafwid, and Ta'wil is a dispensation (rukhs).

Even when they employ Ta'wil the Ash'aris don't say that "Hand" means "Power" in an exclusive specification that negates it having a reality beyond this. Rather, the ta'wil simply entails that "Hand" *signifies* "Power", without negating it having a reality beyond this that is beyond our understanding.

Thus... there is Tafwid in this Ta'wil Tafsili as well.


And Allah Knows Best.

Salman Al-Farsi
18-04-08, 08:15 AM
assalam alaykum

Just to comment on Br Umar Lee's Analysis, I am not aware of the situation in the US but considering the situation in the UK, I don't agree with the conclusion that Salafiyyah of the 80s/90s caused problems.
I believe in the 80s and 90s the Salafi approach was absolutely necessary as they came to highlight issues which Muslims around the world were oblivious of let alone the ones in the UK. Their taught people tawheed and taught them to follow Qur’an and Sunnah, I believe even their method of da’wah was not only a necessity but the best suited style at the time. The Salafi dawah helped the youth to understand the difference between cultural practices and that of Islam, no one else highlighted these differences to them prior to that. They were enthusiastic, educated, intelligent people talking to the youth about Islam and that was much more attractive than the Imams of masjid (their state was atrocious). I remember when the first Salafi bookshop opened up in my area, as a teenager I would go in there and felt comfortable asking them questions about Islam and for some reason felt that was real Islam.

I believe the Salafis raised some very important discussions regarding taqleed and Bidah, I say important because most Muslims from sub-continent regions come from brelawi background and all that bidaa and superstition is all they knew of Isalm. Infact, the whole quest for Islamic learning was because of Salafi onslaught, there was so much goodness they offered. This was also the time when Soufis were non-existent, the only soufis I knew were the brelawis and they were all elderly men who didn’t even understand much. Soufis were a myth created by Salafis as far as most people knew as Salafis would label anyone acting differently to them as Soufis. However all that changed post 9/11, what we saw was the rise of the Soufis alongside the moderates almost in a reaction to extremism. So we now had people calling themselves moderates and those still wanting to hold on to traditional Islam referred to themselves as Soufis. The moderates (likes of MCB) and Soufis were invited and held secret iftaars with Blair government on the wake of 9/11, they were funded heavily to combat extremism, for soufis this was their dream come true to discredit salafis on the expense of UK govt. Salafis were unable to withstand this attack because of internal riff raff due to certain erroneous fatwa issued during Gulf War allowing US troops in Saudi and the influence of Mohammed Qutb, al-Mass’ari, Mehmood al-Khalidi etc.

It wasn’t only the fact that many Salafi leaders in UK and elsewhere became more and more moderate because of the external pressure applied on them, it also has much to do with age. When people are young, they are enthusiastic, full of zeals and none the wiser. After a few years, people tend to calm down, get busier with family responsibilities and begin to re-evaluate things. This is not only common in Salafis but most activist/dawah groups, HT, ISB, YM, MAB all attract young people and once people reach certain age they either become inactive or opt into writing material/books or go on to further education in Islam. Also by then they are over and done with continous debates and accept the fact that these will always be there so no point losing hair over it.

I don’t believe there is anything inherently wrong with Salafi methodology which has lead to its failure, it has not failed just the styles and methods have changed along with the environment and socio-political climate.

Tosh
18-04-08, 08:33 AM
Salaam, I want to know about tasawwuf?

Why is it that some people don't like it, why do they disagree with it? The sahabah would ask the Prophet (saw) to assist them with spiritual problems. e.g. PARAPHRASE ALERT: "Allow me to commit Zina", and he (saw) replied "Would you like that for your sister or your mother?" And the person subsisted having understood.


Those who support it, what is the basis for this support? There is no evidence of the word Tasawwuf as per hadith? Apart from to the Prophet (saw), did people give bayah to particular Sahabah by the hand-holding method?









We should discuss individual practises rather than the group of activities? Otherwise we usually end up assigning beliefs inappropriately and falsely to some our scholars and fellow brothers and sisters.

Same problem what we do to 'Sufis' who actually 'themselves' acknowledge there are some extreme people who claim to be amongst them. The same thing happens to Tablighi Jamaat, we should at the very least support the good activities of calling people to the Masjid and organising 'Muslim Rehab' for many of us who have strayed. Surely, then we could compliment and refine that.

Willingness to change in face of the truth is ideal.


Allahu Alim. Allah knows best.

Looking forward to some good, informative answers to my initial questions bros and sis'. JazakAllah khair in advance (I think).

aboosait
18-04-08, 09:46 AM
.........I want to know about tasawwuf? ...............
Looking forward to some good, informative answers to my initial questions ................

:wswrwb:

Brother Salman who started this thread writes among other useful suggestions about his thread,




.........From this point onwards, all Sufi vs Salafi debates/discussions/discources will take place here as long as certain general rules are observed.

One of the advantage of this thread will be to distinguish fitnah creators from those who sicerely wish to participate in this debate...

And as the title indicates, this is a debate thread and hence the answers to your questions will be marked as off topic and will attract infractions.

However, if you are really interested, please pm me and Insha Allah I shall try to answer your questions.

Enigma Dreamer
18-04-08, 03:13 PM
That doesnt mean anything, its just a coincidence probably... go search oon google and you will most definitely see dozens of Salafi websites and forums and will read countless articles of Salafis declaring all other Muslims as deviants, polythiests, people of innovation, etc.. yet u probably wont find any Sunni-Sufi websites declaring kufr and bidah on others!

This fitnah was started and spread by them in the first place, they spoke first and kept speaking and Ahlus Sunnah had no choice but to reply to them and refute their claims.. at a time when Muslims so desperately need to unite, and ALL Islamic groups Sunnis, Sufis, Hanafis, Malikis, Ikhwanis, Zaydis, Ibadis, and others, were all trying to put aside their differnces and try to unite at least on a political level but the Salafis stood against that and saw that it was their top priority to "refute" and attack other Islamic groups and individuals..

Salafis did start this sister, search the internet and you will see, go to there websites and forums; allaahuakbar.in, Salafitalk, SPubs, Ahya, Salafimanhaj, etc.. 90 percent of the content on these websites is directed towards attacking other Islamic groups while 10 percent is directed to aqida, fiqh, and knowledge, which is more important
A/a. Chitown. Hope you are OK. Maybe you didn't see my questions. I am just posting them again just in case you forgot.


Chitown, could you provide evidence that Imam Abdiwahab, may Allah have mercy on him, declared all the other Muslims mushrikin? Can you also provide evidence from the prophet or from the sahaba that tawassul through a dead person or mawlid is allowed? Thanks.

Z-Blade
18-04-08, 04:11 PM
Sidi Z-Blade this is mostly correct at least the part I quoted. The Ashari's have only made ta`wil when there was an actualy need to refute the innovators or else the standard Ashari position is consign the meaning to Allah, and we do not interpret them in such a way that negates their reality.

Imam Suyuti (Rahimullah) states this in his al-Itiqan;

قال الإمام جلال الدين السيوطي في كتابه "الإتقان في علوم القرآن" (2/6

ومن المتشابه آيات الصفات ... وجمهور أهل السنة، منهم السلف وأهل الحديث على الإيمان بها، وتفويض معناها والمراد .منها إلى الله تعالى ولا نفسرها مع تنزيهنا له عن حقيقتها" . اهـ


Furthermore our Ulema have always stated that the The 'Azima is Tafwid, and Ta'wil is a dispensation (rukhs).

Even when they employ Ta'wil the Ash'aris don't say that "Hand" means "Power" in an exclusive specification that negates it having a reality beyond this. Rather, the ta'wil simply entails that "Hand" *signifies* "Power", without negating it having a reality beyond this that is beyond our understanding.

Thus... there is Tafwid in this Ta'wil Tafsili as well.


And Allah Knows Best.

:salams,

I see, :jkk: bro - yeah I heard the Ashari/Maturidi schools came about because of the innovators and this was the best way to counter them. It is based on the beliefs of the Salaf as well since Imams Ashari and Maturidi (RA) were from the Salaf themselves (i.e. first 3 centuries).

So is that the Maturidi position as well? Since you just mentioned Asharis :O. :jkk: shaykh :') .

:jkk: @ bro Salman for his comments too, indeed there is good in every Muslim "group" and every Muslim :') .

Wassalam.

MMS
18-04-08, 04:39 PM
is it just me or has anybody found that these differences are really exaggerated and even twisted sometimes by the people of knowledge :confused:

im talking about both sides here, for example i have found some salafis saying asharis believe Allah is everywhere and inside everyone etc and that they make tawil of the attributes, i dont know of any asharis of today that say Allah is everywhere, even the extreme 'sufi' asharis do not say allah is everywhere :S they say Allah is not within his creation
and asharis made tawil to refute certain sects but i don't know of any that still do?

and then on the other hand we have asharis who keep saying salafis liken Allah to the creation, and there may have been some who say such things that indicate likeness to creation, but the ones i know of, yes they take the apparent meaning of some of the attributes of Allah but they time and time again negate any likeness to the creation

or even the idsy bitsy of fiqh issues are blown up in to something so big as if your whole faith depends on it, or any such questions which we will not even be asked in the grave or in the aakhirah, its blown up into something soo big :rubeyes::rubeyes: and it really benefits nobody to even talk or delve into such matters

and i hold some of the 'ulemah' responsible in some aspects because of the way they talk about the differences and those who they differ with as though they are bitter enemies, they don't even talk about the kuffar like that :rubeyes: the refutations published by the websites we have nowadays are like a school slanging match

ulemah of the past even when they differed in issues of aqeedah they would write refutations but would still write respectfully of the scholar they were refuting

*end of rant*

salahuldin786
18-04-08, 04:59 PM
an introduction to sufism
http://muslim-canada.org/sufi/sufism.htm

Early Scholars on Sufism
http://www.crescentlife.com/spirituality/early_scholars_on_sufism.htm

Sufism -- Sufis -- Sufi Orders
http://www.uga.edu/islam/Sufism.html

chitownmuslim
18-04-08, 05:08 PM
A/a. Chitown. Hope you are OK. Maybe you didn't see my questions. I am just posting them again just in case you forgot.

Yes all you have to do is open one of Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhabs books and in wont be hard at all to find takfeer and declaring of shirk and bid'ah.. try Kashf Ash-Shubuhat or Kitab At-Tawheed, you'll see what im talking about

Hekmaa
18-04-08, 05:15 PM
If they believe in wahdatul wujood then they believe in Allah swt being manifested through his creation, for example those haqqani group and some chisti's believe in this, therefore this is not exaggeration.

with regards to the Ashari's saying salafi's likening Allah swt to creation, this is because some scholars who salafi's consider their scholars, when describing "Ista wa alal arsh" demonstrated it by making a physical posture. I dont want to mention names because it will be fitnah, as i know the full intent of that imam, by way of our ustads who are not dheeq in their views explaining to us.

Therefore they are not exaggerations, but more taking the odd slip, or odd view and generalizing it over the whole group, then saying "this is all their view".

*asiya*
18-04-08, 06:40 PM
If they believe in wahdatul wujood then they believe in Allah swt being manifested through his creation, for example those haqqani group and some chisti's believe in this, therefore this is not exaggeration.

with regards to the Ashari's saying salafi's likening Allah swt to creation, this is because some scholars who salafi's consider their scholars, when describing "Ista wa alal arsh" demonstrated it by making a physical posture. I dont want to mention names because it will be fitnah, as i know the full intent of that imam, by way of our ustads who are not dheeq in their views explaining to us.

Therefore they are not exaggerations, but more taking the odd slip, or odd view and generalizing it over the whole group, then saying "this is all their view".

sah people claim this imam did that but it is not true, he did not do that nor did he ever liken it to Allah ta ala, and that is a false propganda as is the rest of the propaganda spread by the ppl of biddah against that particular imam whoose name i also wont mention.

MMS
18-04-08, 06:52 PM
If they believe in wahdatul wujood then they believe in Allah swt being manifested through his creation, for example those haqqani group and some chisti's believe in this, therefore this is not exaggeration.

with regards to the Ashari's saying salafi's likening Allah swt to creation, this is because some scholars who salafi's consider their scholars, when describing "Ista wa alal arsh" demonstrated it by making a physical posture. I dont want to mention names because it will be fitnah, as i know the full intent of that imam, by way of our ustads who are not dheeq in their views explaining to us.

Therefore they are not exaggerations, but more taking the odd slip, or odd view and generalizing it over the whole group, then saying "this is all their view".

ya this is what i mean

or like some 'scholars' will teach their student so and so scholar held this deviant view, and it maybe that the scholar in his later works has changed his view after realizing it is not correct but they continue to teach their student the view he held previously without telling them that he later changed his view

its almost as though it has become a little game :rubeyes:

BrotherAB
18-04-08, 10:26 PM
A talk by nazim haqqani in cyprus I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDWxoPKQIM

His style is quite unique.

*asiya*
18-04-08, 10:44 PM
A talk by nazim haqqani in cyprus I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEDWxoPKQIM

His style is quite unique.

u can say that again ...

July 27 2005 - Lefke Cyprus - During Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's summer visit to his master and father in law shaykh Muhammad Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani, Shaykh Nazim ordered him to enter a 40 day seclusion in Damascus by the order and permission of Prophet Muhammad and the Naqshbandi saints. In this clip, Shaykh Nazim informs Shaykh Hisham about his seclusion; he then speaks about the spiritual titles of shaykh Hisham Kabbani, about his duties in preperation for the comming of syidna Al-Mahdi, about his service to the umma of prophet Muhammad....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5yF4eXFE4

He is the Imam of the People of Sincerity, the Secret of Sainthood, who revived the Naqshbandi Order at the end of the 20th Century, with Heavenly guidance and Prophetic ethics. He infused into the Nation and the Planet, love of God and love of the lovers of God, after they had been darkened with the fire and smoke of tribulation and terror, anger and grief.

He is the Unveiler of Secrets, the Keeper of Light, the Shaykh of Shaykhs, the Sultan of Ascetics, the Sultan of the Pious, the Sultan of the People of the Truth. He is the Chief Master without peer of the Divine Knowledge in the late 20th Century. He is the Rain from the Ocean of Knowledge of this Order, which is reviving spirits in all parts of this world. He is the Saint of the Seven Continents, his light having attracted disciples and students from all quarters of the globe. He wears the Cloak of the Light of the Divine Presence. He is unique in his time. He is the orchid planted in the earth of Divine Love. He is the Sun for all the universes. He is known as the Saint of the Two Wings: the external knowledge and the internal knowledge.

He is a Miracle of Allah's Miracles, walking on the earth and soaring in the Heavens. He is a Secret of Allah's Secrets, appearing in His Divinity and Existing in His Existence. He is the Owner of the Throne of Guidance, the Reviver of Divine Law, the Master of Sufi Way, the Builder of the Truth, the Guide of the circle, the Lyric Poem of All the Secrets. He is the Master of Saints and the Saint of the Masters. Seekers circle the Kabah of His Light. He is a Fountain always flowing, a Waterfall continuously cascading, a River always flooding, an Ocean endlessly cresting and breaking on infinite shores.

He was born in Larnaca, Cyprus, on the 23rd of April 1922, a Sunday, the 26th of Shacban, 1340 H. His lineage from his father's side traces its roots to Sayiddina `Abdul Qadir Jilani, founder of the Qadiri Order.

As a youth, Shaykh Nazim was given great consideration because of his unusually high spiritual station. Everyone in Larnaca knew about him, because at a young age he was able to advise people, and to predict the future and reveal it spontaneously. From the age of five there were times when his mother couldn't find him. After searching, she would find him either in the mosque or at the grave of Umm ul-Hiram (r), a Companion of the Prophet (s) whose grave has a mosque built next to it. Tourists come to her grave in large numbers, attracted by the spectacle of a rock suspended in space above her grave. When his mother would try to bring him home, he would say, "Leave me here with Umm ul-Hiram, she is one of our ancestors." He was often seen speaking to Umm ul-Hiram, who was buried fourteen centuries ago, listening and then speaking, listening and answering, as if having a conversation with her. Whenever anyone would disturb him, he would say, "Leave me, I am speaking with my grandmother who is in this grave." :0:

http://www.naqshbandi.org/chain/40.htm



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU4vfVhh4eU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAOH-vanfcY

-Fady-
18-04-08, 10:53 PM
:0:

Hekmaa
18-04-08, 10:53 PM
u can say that again ...

July 27 2005 - Lefke Cyprus - During Shaykh Hisham Kabbani's summer visit to his master and father in law shaykh Muhammad Nazim Adil Al-Haqqani, Shaykh Nazim ordered him to enter a 40 day seclusion in Damascus by the order and permission of Prophet Muhammad and the Naqshbandi saints. In this clip, Shaykh Nazim informs Shaykh Hisham about his seclusion; he then speaks about the spiritual titles of shaykh Hisham Kabbani, about his duties in preperation for the comming of syidna Al-Mahdi, about his service to the umma of prophet Muhammad....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA5yF4eXFE4

He is the Imam of the People of Sincerity, the Secret of Sainthood, who revived the Naqshbandi Order at the end of the 20th Century, with Heavenly guidance and Prophetic ethics. He infused into the Nation and the Planet, love of God and love of the lovers of God, after they had been darkened with the fire and smoke of tribulation and terror, anger and grief.

He is the Unveiler of Secrets, the Keeper of Light, the Shaykh of Shaykhs, the Sultan of Ascetics, the Sultan of the Pious, the Sultan of the People of the Truth. He is the Chief Master without peer of the Divine Knowledge in the late 20th Century. He is the Rain from the Ocean of Knowledge of this Order, which is reviving spirits in all parts of this world. He is the Saint of the Seven Continents, his light having attracted disciples and students from all quarters of the globe. He wears the Cloak of the Light of the Divine Presence. He is unique in his time. He is the orchid planted in the earth of Divine Love. He is the Sun for all the universes. He is known as the Saint of the Two Wings: the external knowledge and the internal knowledge.

He is a Miracle of Allah's Miracles, walking on the earth and soaring in the Heavens. He is a Secret of Allah's Secrets, appearing in His Divinity and Existing in His Existence. He is the Owner of the Throne of Guidance, the Reviver of Divine Law, the Master of Sufi Way, the Builder of the Truth, the Guide of the circle, the Lyric Poem of All the Secrets. He is the Master of Saints and the Saint of the Masters. Seekers circle the Kabah of His Light. He is a Fountain always flowing, a Waterfall continuously cascading, a River always flooding, an Ocean endlessly cresting and breaking on infinite shores.

He was born in Larnaca, Cyprus, on the 23rd of April 1922, a Sunday, the 26th of Shacban, 1340 H. His lineage from his father's side traces its roots to Sayiddina `Abdul Qadir Jilani, founder of the Qadiri Order.

As a youth, Shaykh Nazim was given great consideration because of his unusually high spiritual station. Everyone in Larnaca knew about him, because at a young age he was able to advise people, and to predict the future and reveal it spontaneously. From the age of five there were times when his mother couldn't find him. After searching, she would find him either in the mosque or at the grave of Umm ul-Hiram (r), a Companion of the Prophet (s) whose grave has a mosque built next to it. Tourists come to her grave in large numbers, attracted by the spectacle of a rock suspended in space above her grave. When his mother would try to bring him home, he would say, "Leave me here with Umm ul-Hiram, she is one of our ancestors." He was often seen speaking to Umm ul-Hiram, who was buried fourteen centuries ago, listening and then speaking, listening and answering, as if having a conversation with her. Whenever anyone would disturb him, he would say, "Leave me, I am speaking with my grandmother who is in this grave."

http://www.naqshbandi.org/chain/40.htm

:0:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU4vfVhh4eU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAOH-vanfcY


You know the position of khawarij to real Muslims?

This group are like the khawarij to sufis.

I seriously suggest you study Tasawwuf from a critical point of view, then inshallah you will see the pros and cons of it.

This whole post has little relevance to this thread.

-Fady-
18-04-08, 10:55 PM
You know the position of khawarij to real Muslims?

This group are like the khawarij to sufis.

I seriously suggest you study Tasawwuf from a critical point of view, then inshallah you will see the pros and cons of it.

This whole post has little relevance to this thread.

bro can you direct us please? because I don't really know where to look to learn the proper tassawwuf, as I might be learning the wrong stuff then coming to wrong conclusions..:o

:jkk:

Hekmaa
18-04-08, 11:27 PM
Allah swt does not have race, therefore His sacred knowledge is not racially magnetic.

This pasting of videos is something that has happened in this forum dozens of times. It just narrows down the debate into a one avenue argument.

Like i said, this group is to sufis like khawarij is to Islam.

Hence they should not even be part of this debate.

Hekmaa
18-04-08, 11:35 PM
bro can you direct us please? because I don't really know where to look to learn the proper tassawwuf, as I might be learning the wrong stuff then coming to wrong conclusions..:o

:jkk:

You want to learn Tasawwuf, or more properly tazkiyatun nafs, then read Imam Ibn Al Qayeem Jawzi's works.

After having read that, then read on the Tareeqah, Kashf Al Mahjoob is a good book on Tasawwuf from a Sufi perspective.

These are just two reference, but inshallah you get the picture, you read none sufi work about Tazkiyatun nafs, then you read sufi work on Tazkiyatun nafs.

This way you will be able to pick where these sufi groups go wrong.

Reading of the net, unless you know exactly what to look for, you will just be feeding yourself the information that is put there for you to see, just like tv adds.

Finally these things also need a person to go sit with the people of this way. It is like when people start bashing Tabligh Jama'ah. I remember Shaiykh Bazz RA was told about Jama'ah work by some dheeq salafis so he issue fatwa against anyone who did things that those brothers had said to him.

Then some other brothers came to him and told him good things about the Jama'ah and how those previous incidents is act of people and not the Jama'ah, so he sent a delegation with the Jama'ah. Then he gave final fatwa and said, if they dont do any bida'ah and people should join them.

Then our Shaiykh Salih Al uthaimen RA even praised them, because his sons knew well about the Jama'ah work.

Salman Al-Farsi
18-04-08, 11:44 PM
I think a few people have asked about Tasawuff but I don't think the issue of tasawuff is central to this debate. Tasawuff is something which was taught and practiced by our Imam Junaid, Abdul Qadir Jilani and also Imam Ibn Taymiyyah and his student Ibn Qayyim (may Allah Ta'ala be pleased with all of them). There is no specific book called Tasawuff which poeple have to go and follow, we do many actions to draw nearness to Allah azz wa jal others follow a particular way of doing this. Its not really a debate.

Salman Al-Farsi
18-04-08, 11:55 PM
If they believe in wahdatul wujood then they believe in Allah swt being manifested through his creation, for example those haqqani group and some chisti's believe in this, therefore this is not exaggeration.

with regards to the Ashari's saying salafi's likening Allah swt to creation, this is because some scholars who salafi's consider their scholars, when describing "Ista wa alal arsh" demonstrated it by making a physical posture. I dont want to mention names because it will be fitnah, as i know the full intent of that imam, by way of our ustads who are not dheeq in their views explaining to us.

Therefore they are not exaggerations, but more taking the odd slip, or odd view and generalizing it over the whole group, then saying "this is all their view".


Brother isn't this corrupt doctrine of Wahdatul Wujood as old as Bastami and even ibn Arabi? And all those Sufia who continued to follow this doctrine, you can sense it coming from Rumi and those from the Indian sub-continent. The Mujaddid Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi (ra) was one of the first to disassociate from Wahdatul Wujood by contructing and teaching Wahdatul Shahud instead.

al-ghazalli
19-04-08, 12:03 AM
I'm not familiar with Wahdatul Wujood but I always thought it meant in the terminology of the sufi's,to believe that all the mawjoodaat (things present around us) are an indication of Allah’s presence and to believe that everything besides Allah is subjective.

I think that's how Mufti Ebrahim Desai explained it on askimam.org

I've also heard that Sheikh `Abd al-Ghani mentions this in hi his Diwan al-Haqa'iq

One of the Ulema of Deoband stated;

"Because of not understanding Wahdat ul Wujood's meaning, many deviant groups were created, some believing in Hulool and others in Ittihad"

Hadhrat Haji Sahib Imdadullah Muhajir Makki Rahimahullahu Ta`ala {Imdad ul Mushtaq malfoodh 145.}

Skilly
19-04-08, 12:03 AM
Salaam

I am suprised this thread is still going on. I am sure most of the points raised by the asharis here has been dealt with in this forum elsewhere, and I am sure most of the people posting here are aware of it.





im talking about both sides here, for example i have found some salafis saying asharis believe Allah is everywhere and inside everyone etc and that they make tawil of the attributes, i dont know of any asharis of today that say Allah is everywhere, even the extreme 'sufi' asharis do not say allah is everywhere :S they say Allah is not within his creation
and asharis made tawil to refute certain sects but i don't know of any that still do?



Slight correction.

I am not aware of any Ahul Sunnah saying asharis believes Allah(swt) is everywhere.
wahdat and wujood (pantheism) is belief of some sufi's.

Ahul Sunnah believes Allah(swt) is above his throne, asharis simply don't.

One has to differentiate when one is talking about some extreme exports of sufism and on the other hand asharism. You are getting the two mixed up.

Hekmaa
19-04-08, 12:09 AM
Brother isn't this corrupt doctrine of Wahdatul Wujood as old as Bastami and even ibn Arabi? And all those Sufia who continued to follow this doctrine, you can sense it coming from Rumi and those from the Indian sub-continent. The Mujaddid Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi (ra) was one of the first to disassociate from Wahdatul Wujood by contructing and teaching Wahdatul Shahud instead.

Muhtaram is that a question or comment, lol lets look at it at both.

Part of the deviation in aqeedah by sufi's is this wahdatul wujood, even Shaiykh Asraf ali Thanwi RA was grappling with this concept for long periods of time.

Mujaddid Ahmad Farooq RA surpassed in maqam those before him in the aspect of spiritual blessing. Therefore he wrote about Wahdatus shuhood, and he was not the first, yahya maneri did so before him, if i recall correctly. However he was not able to expound on it as much as imam Rabbani, because Allah swt had given imam the ability to speak correctly and in proper shariah manner, whilst Allah swt was showing him aspects of the spiritual realm.

.: Anna :.
19-04-08, 12:18 AM
Salaam

I am suprised this thread is still going on. I am sure most of the points raised by the asharis here has been dealt with in this forum elsewhere, and I am sure most of the people posting here are aware of it.




its here to keep all the discussion in one place rather than repeating in all different places elsewhere in the forum...

Skilly
19-04-08, 12:28 AM
its here to keep all the discussion in one place rather than repeating in all different places elsewhere in the forum...

For one to have a discussion on what ashari believe and ahul sunnah (salafi) believe it has to be another thread.

It won't come under the topic of sufism. Ilm Al-Kalam has nothing got to do with sufism except for the fact that most sufis (come across) are ashari or maturidi in aqeedah.

BrotherAB
19-04-08, 12:51 AM
You know the position of khawarij to real Muslims?

This group are like the khawarij to sufis.

I seriously suggest you study Tasawwuf from a critical point of view, then inshallah you will see the pros and cons of it.

This whole post has little relevance to this thread.What makes you say that about shaykh nazim?

Muhtaram is that a question or comment, lol lets look at it at both.


Part of the deviation in aqeedah by sufi's is this wahdatul wujood, even Shaiykh Asraf ali Thanwi RA was grappling with this concept for long periods of time.

Mujaddid Ahmad Farooq RA surpassed in maqam those before him in the aspect of spiritual blessing. Therefore he wrote about Wahdatus shuhood, and he was not the first, yahya maneri did so before him, if i recall correctly. However he was not able to expound on it as much as imam Rabbani, because Allah swt had given imam the ability to speak correctly and in proper shariah manner, whilst Allah swt was showing him aspects of the spiritual realm.I would be interested is seeing how you concluded that only deviant sufis follow wahdat ul wujood.

Saudi Prince
19-04-08, 12:55 AM
Hekmaa and Al-ghazalli, do you aprove of what's shown in the link posted above. Here is it again. Just asking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ylKak2bvwk&feature=related

al-ghazalli
19-04-08, 01:00 AM
Hekmaa and Al-ghazalli, do you aprove of what's shown in the link posted above. Here is it again. Just asking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ylKa...eature=related

I didn't watch the video as soon the name Kabbani came up...I do not approve anything which Kabbani propagates.

Skilly
19-04-08, 01:11 AM
I didn't watch the video as soon the name Kabbani came up...I do not approve anything which Kabbani propagates.

Neither do I.

Hekmaa
19-04-08, 01:13 AM
Hekmaa and Al-ghazalli, do you aprove of what's shown in the link posted above. Here is it again. Just asking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ylKak2bvwk&feature=related





Of course not, like i said before, this is a group that has gone off the tracks.

BrotherAB
19-04-08, 03:23 AM
Muhtaram is that a question or comment, lol lets look at it at both.

Part of the deviation in aqeedah by sufi's is this wahdatul wujood, even Shaiykh Asraf ali Thanwi RA was grappling with this concept for long periods of time.

Mujaddid Ahmad Farooq RA surpassed in maqam those before him in the aspect of spiritual blessing. Therefore he wrote about Wahdatus shuhood, and he was not the first, yahya maneri did so before him, if i recall correctly. However he was not able to expound on it as much as imam Rabbani, because Allah swt had given imam the ability to speak correctly and in proper shariah manner, whilst Allah swt was showing him aspects of the spiritual realm.
Brother Hekmaa,

What is Shajarah?

I can see you are principled in Wahdat Us Shahud. Many scholars argue that there really is no difference between the two. I would be interested in hearing your comments about this (since wahdat al wujood is deviant according to yourself)/

al faqeer
19-04-08, 05:56 AM
No. I dont get your point. kindly elaborate.

:salams

You dont want to get my point is more like it :

"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." His Lord said: "By no means canst thou see Me ;
But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me."
When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount,
He made it as dust.
And Moses fell down in a swoon.
When he recovered his senses he said:
"Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

(7:143)

Did this take place above the Arsh ?

Hekmaa
19-04-08, 06:45 AM
Brother Hekmaa,

What is Shajarah?

I can see you are principled in Wahdat Us Shahud. Many scholars argue that there really is no difference between the two. I would be interested in hearing your comments about this (since wahdat al wujood is deviant according to yourself)/

Shajarah, means tree, in respect to tasawwuf, it refers to the chain of transmission of spiritual knowledge. From the Prophet SAW either through Ali Ra or Abu Bakr Siddeeq RA. These are the two most common chains of transmission. The Naqshbandi Tareeqa comes through Abu Bakr RA, Salman Al Farsi etc. The other Tareeqat, come from Ali RA.

Your assumption is wrong, i do not follow Wahdat al wujood or Wahdat asshuhood, these are not part of ones aqeedah. However in order to understand what the Sufi's believe and why, our scholars would make us study these in order that we understand the difference so we can be better equipped for dawah and understanding.

Wahdat Asshuhood is much more correct in terms of the scale of aqeedah, than wahdat al wujood.

In wahdat al wujud, the core belief is that Allah swt manifests Himself through His creation, that He is in everything, and everything is him. This concept came about in the experience of Fanna fillah, when one totally loses their nafs, and can only see Allah swt, everything else is blocked out. Totally selfless. However this is only by those who did not pass beyond this, when Imam Rabbani past this state, he explained, that the reason one feels that Allah swt is in everything, is like when someone is staring at the night sky and can see all the stars. Then the sun comes out, the stars are all still there, however the sun light over powers them all and one can only see the sun.

Therefore it is unity in vision, not unity in existence, the reality still remains that the stars are there, as the reality remains that the creation is there, it is only the muhaba towards Allah swt, that to that Salik the Tajaleeyat e Rabbani over powers everything and it seems that everything is Allah swt, na uthu billah. However that is not the case, everything is in its place it is only due to the over powering that the salik feels like that.

When Allah swt blesses the salik further, and he passes this state, he then sees that everything returns to normal, and realizes the true meaning of laa illaha ilahu. and everything is in servitude to Allah swt.

Inshallah that explains it for you.

I also want to clarify before people starting getting confused, the reason we studied these aspects of Tasawwuf, was the same reason Imam Ibn Taymiyah RA studied it, and that was to know who and what he is giving dawah against. We practice Tazkiyatun Nafs, that is strictly according to Quran and Sunnah.

chitownmuslim
19-04-08, 08:48 AM
Subhan Allah, as soon as the subject of tasawwuf is brought up, the Salafis bring up Kabbani & co. as if they were the only tariqa which exists! There are many real contemporary Shaikhs who are much more deserving to be associated with the great knowledge of tasawwuf; Shaykh Nuh Keller, Shaykh Yaqubi, Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad, Shaykh Hussain Abdus Sattar, Shaykh Ninowy, etc.

In regards to the subject of Wahdat Al-Wujood, there are two seperate and conflicting concepts which are both known by that word:

-the first is that the Creator is the creation in essence, or another form of it would be that the universe emanates from the essence of the Creator, and both beliefs are kufr which are worse than the kufr of Jews and Christians. This concept is very similar to panthiestic and neoplatonist philosophies. All of the major Sufi Imams have warned against these beliefs and strongly disassociated themselves from it.

-the second is that contingent being or creation, is originally nothingness in substance, which only exists because of Allahs acts of creation and sustenance. In other words creation has no power or control of its own and is completely dependant on Allah (swt) in everything, including its existence. SO in other words, creation has no existence of its own, it only exists because Allah (swt) exists and is necessarily being. Creation is a sign of his existence and his Divine unity.

al faqeer
19-04-08, 10:54 AM
Subhan Allah, as soon as the subject of tasawwuf is brought up, the Salafis bring up Kabbani & co. as if they were the only tariqa which exists! There are many real contemporary Shaikhs who are much more deserving to be associated with the great knowledge of tasawwuf; Shaykh Nuh Keller, Shaykh Yaqubi, Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad, Shaykh Hussain Abdus Sattar, Shaykh Ninowy, etc.

In regards to the subject of Wahdat Al-Wujood, there are two seperate and conflicting concepts which are both known by that word:

-the first is that the Creator is the creation in essence, or another form of it would be that the universe emanates from the essence of the Creator, and both beliefs are kufr which are worse than the kufr of Jews and Christians. This concept is very similar to panthiestic and neoplatonist philosophies. All of the major Sufi Imams have warned against these beliefs and strongly disassociated themselves from it.

-the second is that contingent being or creation, is originally nothingness in substance, which only exists because of Allahs acts of creation and sustenance. In other words creation has no power or control of its own and is completely dependant on Allah (swt) in everything, including its existence. SO in other words, creation has no existence of its own, it only exists because Allah (swt) exists and is necessarily being. Creation is a sign of his existence and his Divine unity.


Yeah but we can equally throw In Albanis errors all 1200 of them .

BrotherAB
19-04-08, 12:38 PM
Shajarah, means tree, in respect to tasawwuf, it refers to the chain of transmission of spiritual knowledge. From the Prophet SAW either through Ali Ra or Abu Bakr Siddeeq RA. These are the two most common chains of transmission. The Naqshbandi Tareeqa comes through Abu Bakr RA, Salman Al Farsi etc. The other Tareeqat, come from Ali RA.

Your assumption is wrong, i do not follow Wahdat al wujood or Wahdat asshuhood, these are not part of ones aqeedah. However in order to understand what the Sufi's believe and why, our scholars would make us study these in order that we understand the difference so we can be better equipped for dawah and understanding.

Wahdat Asshuhood is much more correct in terms of the scale of aqeedah, than wahdat al wujood.

In wahdat al wujud, the core belief is that Allah swt manifests Himself through His creation, that He is in everything, and everything is him. This concept came about in the experience of Fanna fillah, when one totally loses their nafs, and can only see Allah swt, everything else is blocked out. Totally selfless. However this is only by those who did not pass beyond this, when Imam Rabbani past this state, he explained, that the reason one feels that Allah swt is in everything, is like when someone is staring at the night sky and can see all the stars. Then the sun comes out, the stars are all still there, however the sun light over powers them all and one can only see the sun.

Therefore it is unity in vision, not unity in existence, the reality still remains that the stars are there, as the reality remains that the creation is there, it is only the muhaba towards Allah swt, that to that Salik the Tajaleeyat e Rabbani over powers everything and it seems that everything is Allah swt, na uthu billah. However that is not the case, everything is in its place it is only due to the over powering that the salik feels like that.

When Allah swt blesses the salik further, and he passes this state, he then sees that everything returns to normal, and realizes the true meaning of laa illaha ilahu. and everything is in servitude to Allah swt.

Inshallah that explains it for you.

I also want to clarify before people starting getting confused, the reason we studied these aspects of Tasawwuf, was the same reason Imam Ibn Taymiyah RA studied it, and that was to know who and what he is giving dawah against. We practice Tazkiyatun Nafs, that is strictly according to Quran and Sunnah.
Thank you for your reply.

It looks like I made a mistake, I meant what is your sharajah (if any)?

Also note I did not say you follow any of the listed concepts, simply that you are principled in them.

When discussing such issues it is very easy to slip. You said that the core belief in Wahdat ul Wujood is that "Allah is in everything and everything is Allah". This is correct to a degree but not entirely. Note carefully, Allah is not in everything, this is a hindu belief. Allah is the source of everything.

The sufis say this world is a world of manifestations, nothing but Allah's attributes manifest. Let me give you an example, Allah says in the Quran Allaha khalaqa alssamawati wa al-arda bi alhaqq, Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth. Most muslims will simply think that Allah created the heavens and the earth and that is the end of. The sufi will take it further. The verse talks of two actions, first creating and second realizing. Allah created with Al Khaliq and he realized with Al Haqq. He manipulates that creation with Al Musawwir, The Fashioner. He makes man hearing and seeing through As Sami and Al Baseer as he says in Al Insaan verse 2.
I don't have time to get deeply analytical on this but I hope you have a better understanding of this now.

Peace
BrotherAB

the_middle_road
19-04-08, 01:02 PM
Let me give you an example, Allah says in the Quran Allaha khalaqa alssamawati wa al-arda bi alhaqq, Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth.


أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ إِنْ يَشَأْ يُذْهِبْكُمْ وَيَأْتِ بِخَلْقٍ جَدِيدٍ



Seest thou not that Allah created the heavens and the earth in Truth? If He so will, He can remove you and put (in your place) a new creation?

(Ibrahim: 19)

Hekmaa
19-04-08, 01:22 PM
BrotherAB, jazakallah for your reply.

Unfortunately you have miss quoted what i wrote, please re-read what I said, you left out the important part of my sentence. What i said was,


In wahdat al wujud, the core belief is that Allah swt manifests Himself through His creation, that He is in everything, and everything is him.Which I then further explained


he explained, that the reason one feels that Allah swt is in everything, is like when someone is staring at the night sky and can see all the stars. Then the sun comes out, the stars are all still there, however the sun light over powers them all and one can only see the sun.
Again this is the belief of the sufi's with which we have an issue. The likes of whom we mentioned earlier.

Let me give you a more classical quote;

Muhyiuddeen Ibn Arabi says about his Shaiykh

“In relation to existence, He (Allaah) is the very essence of existing things. Thus in a certain sense, relative beings are elevated in themselves, since in truth they are none other than He who bears the name Abu Said al-Kharraz.”

Then to quote the master of this whole concept Mansoor Al Hallaj who says

“I am He Whom I love,” he exclaimed, “He Whom I love is I; we are two souls co-inhabiting one body. If you see me you see Him and if you see Him you see me.”

Now one can continue to deny what the deviant sects of Sufi's believe, or one can take the correct view and point out the deviant ones from the good ones. However let one not try to change what the concept is in order to make it look alright. There is nothing right about Wahdatul Wujood, as you mentioned it is very much like what the Hindu's believe.

May Allah save us.

BrotherAB
19-04-08, 02:18 PM
BrotherAB, jazakallah for your reply.

Unfortunately you have miss quoted what i wrote, please re-read what I said, you left out the important part of my sentence. What i said was,

Which I then further explained


Again this is the belief of the sufi's with which we have an issue. The likes of whom we mentioned earlier.

Let me give you a more classical quote;

Muhyiuddeen Ibn Arabi says about his Shaiykh

“In relation to existence, He (Allaah) is the very essence of existing things. Thus in a certain sense, relative beings are elevated in themselves, since in truth they are none other than He who bears the name Abu Said al-Kharraz.”

Then to quote the master of this whole concept Mansoor Al Hallaj who says

“I am He Whom I love,” he exclaimed, “He Whom I love is I; we are two souls co-inhabiting one body. If you see me you see Him and if you see Him you see me.”

Now one can continue to deny what the deviant sects of Sufi's believe, or one can take the correct view and point out the deviant ones from the good ones. However let one not try to change what the concept is in order to make it look alright. There is nothing right about Wahdatul Wujood, as you mentioned it is very much like what the Hindu's believe.

May Allah save us.
Dear Hekmaa,

Thank you for your reply.

The mistake you made was to contain Allah by saying that he is in objects. Nothing can contain Allah and to make such a statement is kufr and exemplifies one's lack of understanding.

I would still like to know what shajarah you follow? And with whom did you study Ibn Arabi's work? And what works exactly.

No one is attempting to make the idea more acceptable, one is simply attempting to make the idea alittle more understandable by simplifying the terms. Regarding your quote:


“In relation to existence, He (Allaah) is the very essence of existing things. Thus in a certain sense, relative beings are elevated in themselves, since in truth they are none other than He who bears the name Abu Said al-Kharraz.”

The first part is correct, I have never seen the second part (none other than He who bears the name Abu Said al-Kharraz.) and I would be interested in knowing exactly where you got that from. I wouldn't be suprised if it was a salafi/wahabi website since they are very well known for twisting other groups terminology simply because they do not agree with them or to make their path more alluring.

Allah is the one truely only existing since he is the one whom creates, realizes, manipulates, gives shape and form, gives the being its characteristics, its emotions etc and is constantly maintaining it. Brother, if he didn't then who did? Where does it come from? Clearly, it is all from him and none other than him. He is the source of the created being and in essense that being is nothing except what Allah makes of it. Do you agree? This is deeply rooted in the Quran as I explained in my post above yours and certain ahadith indicate to this too.

As for the statement made by Al Hallaj, I agree that he shouldn't have made that statement because one is bound to misunderstand it. In simplified terms he is saying what I stated in my paragraph above. It a state of realization that nothing is really doing anything except Allah.

Z-Blade
19-04-08, 02:36 PM
If they believe in wahdatul wujood then they believe in Allah swt being manifested through his creation, for example those haqqani group and some chisti's believe in this, therefore this is not exaggeration.

with regards to the Ashari's saying salafi's likening Allah swt to creation, this is because some scholars who salafi's consider their scholars, when describing "Ista wa alal arsh" demonstrated it by making a physical posture. I dont want to mention names because it will be fitnah, as i know the full intent of that imam, by way of our ustads who are not dheeq in their views explaining to us.

Therefore they are not exaggerations, but more taking the odd slip, or odd view and generalizing it over the whole group, then saying "this is all their view".

:salams,

So can you or other knowledgable brothers and sisters comment on this fatwa please?:
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4851&CATE=22


sah people claim this imam did that but it is not true, he did not do that nor did he ever liken it to Allah ta ala, and that is a false propganda as is the rest of the propaganda spread by the ppl of biddah against that particular imam whoose name i also wont mention.

Can you tell us who the people of bid'ah are? You say that, but bro Skilly here who is Salafi as far as I know, said this:


Ahul Sunnah believes Allah(swt) is above his throne, asharis simply don't.

What do you mean by saying Allah is above His throne?! Where as we see in Aqidah Tahawiyah and other places that Allah isn't confined to one space or limited naudhubillah, this should suffice to show this is not true:

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.

But to add, in an authentic hadith we see:

"Neither the heavens nor the earth encompass Him, and He is not described by saying that His entity is literally above the heaven. Rather, He is above everything in His tremendous power and His magnificent wisdom. [h: That He is not literally above the heaven is proved by what] he (Allah bless him and give him peace) said in a rigorously authenticated hadith narrated by Imam Muslim: “… You are the Outwardly Manifest (dhahir) so there is nothing above You, and You are the Inwardly Hidden (batin) so there is nothing below You.” [3] "
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=2252&CATE=24

And finally:

"To summarize what I have said in answer to your question above, scholars take the primary texts of the Qur'an and sunna literally unless there is some cogent reason for them not to. In the case of Allah "descending" or being "in the sky", there are many such reasons. First, a literal interpretation of these texts makes it impossible to join between them and the many other rigorously authenticated texts about Allah being "with" a servant when he does dhikr, "closer to him than the jugular vein" (Qur'an 50:16), "in front of him" when he prays, "closest" to him when he is prostrating, "in the sky" when a slave girl was asked; "with you wherever you are" (Qur'an 58:4), and so on. These are incoherent when taken together literally, and only become free of contradictions when they are understood figuratively, as Malik, al-Awzai, and al-Nawawi have done above. Second, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) detailed the beliefs that every Muslim must have in the Gabriel Hadith in Sahih Muslim and others, and did not mention Allah being "in the sky" (or anywhere else) in any of them. Third, Allah's being "in the sky" as birds, clouds, and so on are in the sky in a literal sense contradicts the `aqida of the Qur'an that there is "nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Qur'an 42:11). Fourth, the notion of Allah's being in particular places contradicts the `aqida expressed in seventeen verses of the Qur'an that Allah is free of need of anything, while things that occupy places need both space and time. "
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/inthesky.htm

Wassalam.

salahuldin786
19-04-08, 03:25 PM
A Refutation of Contemporary Anthropomorphism
as Expressed in the So-called "Fundamentals of Tawheed"

http://amislam.com/tawhid2.htm


Is it permissible for a Muslim
to believe that Allah is in the
sky in literal sense?
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/inthesky.htm

The Foundations of the Islamic Belief
by Al Ghazali (died 505/1111)
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ghazali3.htm

chitownmuslim
19-04-08, 03:34 PM
Yeah but we can equally throw In Albanis errors all 1200 of them .

I agree bro, or how many of the top contemporary muhadditheen refuted his works even Salafis, such as Humood At-Tuwajiri, he refuted Albanis "Praying like the Prophet" book, and pointed out a mistake on every page of the book!

Ibn Khattab
19-04-08, 03:45 PM
I agree bro, or how many of the top contemporary muhadditheen refuted his works even Salafis, such as Humood At-Tuwajiri, he refuted Albanis "Praying like the Prophet" book, and pointed out a mistake on every page of the book!

Bro do you have a link to his refutation? or the name of the book or something?

Hekmaa
19-04-08, 04:31 PM
Dear Hekmaa,

Thank you for your reply.

The mistake you made was to contain Allah by saying that he is in objects. Nothing can contain Allah and to make such a statement is kufr and exemplifies one's lack of understanding.

I would still like to know what shajarah you follow? And with whom did you study Ibn Arabi's work? And what works exactly.

No one is attempting to make the idea more acceptable, one is simply attempting to make the idea alittle more understandable by simplifying the terms. Regarding your quote:



The first part is correct, I have never seen the second part (none other than He who bears the name Abu Said al-Kharraz.) and I would be interested in knowing exactly where you got that from. I wouldn't be suprised if it was a salafi/wahabi website since they are very well known for twisting other groups terminology simply because they do not agree with them or to make their path more alluring.

Allah is the one truely only existing since he is the one whom creates, realizes, manipulates, gives shape and form, gives the being its characteristics, its emotions etc and is constantly maintaining it. Brother, if he didn't then who did? Where does it come from? Clearly, it is all from him and none other than him. He is the source of the created being and in essense that being is nothing except what Allah makes of it. Do you agree? This is deeply rooted in the Quran as I explained in my post above yours and certain ahadith indicate to this too.

As for the statement made by Al Hallaj, I agree that he shouldn't have made that statement because one is bound to misunderstand it. In simplified terms he is saying what I stated in my paragraph above. It a state of realization that nothing is really doing anything except Allah.

[/size]

Authu billah, brother please dont assume on me something i havent said. I explained what wahdatul wujood is, and I have given reference for the founder of this thought, and you have agreed to it.

Nothing can contain Allah swt. That is why wahdatul wujood is wrong, you keep trying to justify it, and you say I am wrong for pointing out the truth about it. I am not mistaken by saying that is what they believe, if you deny it by saying it is simply 'easily misunderstood', then that is your provocative. So far as i am concern, i just need to propagate what is the truth about them, and the people can make judgment themselves.

Alhamdulillah I do not follow wahdatul wujood or wahdat usshuhood. Our methodology of Tazkiyah is as explained by Quran and Sunnah.

Secondly, if you put something that I havent said and say 'you said this' then there is no point in this discussion. If you believe that Wahdatul wujood is something other than what the founders of it believe, then please prove to us why. Since i dont follow it, it does not impact me, maybe you follow it and you should be very concerned since the fundamental definition is as stated before. This is what the likes of Ibn Arabi and Hallaj have said about it “I am He Whom I love,” he exclaimed, “He Whom I love is I; we are two souls co-inhabiting one body. If you see me you see Him and if you see Him you see me.”. Yes it is shirk and it does show lack of knowledge in aqeedah, so how can a true Muslim follow it? This is their words. If it is a lack of knowledge it is theirs, i am free from this statement.

Finally, if there is something you havent seen, then go sit with your shaiykh and ask him to explain to you, until you know better dont question the source, or try to make alternate meanings for it.

salahuldin786
19-04-08, 04:42 PM
The Salafi beliefs can be found here:

http://www.livingislam.org/n/uthaym_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/alb_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/ibaz_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/n/itay_e.html

Ibn Khattab
19-04-08, 04:46 PM
The Salafi beliefs can be found here:

http://www.livingislam.org/n/uthaym_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/alb_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/ibaz_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/n/itay_e.html

lol you want us to look at sufi sources to find out about salafi beliefs :rolleyes:

salahuldin786
19-04-08, 04:50 PM
The Official Sunni/Salafi Debates Thread
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27978

salahuldin786
19-04-08, 04:51 PM
lol you want us to look at sufi sources to find out about salafi beliefs :rolleyes:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49466]

the_middle_road
19-04-08, 05:18 PM
I agree bro, or how many of the top contemporary muhadditheen refuted his works even Salafis, such as Humood At-Tuwajiri, he refuted Albanis "Praying like the Prophet" book, and pointed out a mistake on every page of the book!




Bro do you have a link to his refutation? or the name of the book or something?

I think this might be what he is referring to.

perfectpearl
19-04-08, 05:25 PM
The Salafi beliefs can be found here:

http://www.livingislam.org/n/uthaym_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/alb_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/ibaz_e.html

http://www.livingislam.org/n/itay_e.html

lol from a sufi point of veiw

no if you want to learn.. get it from the source itself go to

http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/


lol you want us to look at sufi sources to find out about salafi beliefs :rolleyes:

lol exactly

Ibn Khattab
19-04-08, 05:59 PM
I think this might be what he is referring to.

erm in english please :o

shamson
19-04-08, 06:07 PM
Stop trying to beautify sufism coz it is not beautiful it is corrupt! Just because they say a few good things doesnt make them OK. I have been on SIFU websites and am shocked by the amount of rubbish some of them belief.

Sufis seem to be split on their views regarding ibn taymiyyah Rahimullah. From what i have read ibn taymiyyah declared arabi to to a KAFFIR because of his disgusting beliefs. their is a website called sheiknazim or something similiar that a SUFI told my hubby about wen he tried to CONVERT my hubby, this website contained blatent SHIRK, i dont care what ppl say about the salafis yes they are harsh, yes they refute everyone wateva but they do not commit shirk soooo blatently, subhanAllah tell me any sufi here what are the great errors that u have found in kitab at tawheed by imam wahhab? does it contain shirk? NO.

In a hadith the Prophet SAW says that Allah fashioned Adam AS with his own hands so we affirm for Allah what he affirms for himself WE NOT NOT go into detail about what Allah's hands look like etc. because this is not something Allah has mentioned.

There is a hadith about hell when Allah says that he will put his FOOT over hell and then it will be full, so Ahlul sunnah Affirm that Allah has a foot because Allah says his foot, The end we do not go into detail because all we have the RIGHT to do is affirm for Allah what Allah affirms for himself and negate that which he negates for Himself.

shamson
19-04-08, 06:10 PM
sufism as a sect are deviated i am not here to say individuals are like so and so but some of ur so called 'shaykhs' are blatently misguided and are misguiding the poeple.

Arabi says that Allah is everwhere he can not be resticted this is the same belief or other sufi shaykhs so does this mean Allah is in the toilet? Audhobillah? if you say yes then u are saying Allah is in a filthy place and if u say no then are you not resticting Allah?

Allah is above his throne, above his creation. This is the belief of Ahlul sunnah

shamson
19-04-08, 06:21 PM
The whole quran is about TAWHEED, This is what the salafis stick too! This is their belief in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah.

Tawheed al-Uloohiyyah (Oneness of Allah) Tawheed al-Ruboobiyyah (oneness of the Divine Lordship), which the mushrikoon affirmed, but that did not make them Muslims. Tawheed al-Asma’ wa’l-Sifaat (Oneness of the Divine Names and Attributes), which was denied by the innovators such as the Jahamiyyah, Mu’tazilah, anthropomorphists etc.

Salafis believe that you can only ask for intercession through the living person not the one who is dead and yet this is what the sufis do they ask for help and aid from their teachers are dead and cold in their graves and corrupt hadiths and ayahs to make permissable that which is CLEARLY haraam.

Allah says to ask Him Alone for help! yet the sufis run to their dead and believe that they can talk to their dead by calling upon them! That their pirs can bring the dead back to life and use the miracals of the PROPHETS to justify why it is NORMAL for their pirs to do this, they were PROPHETS!!!!! I have seen pictures of 'shaykh' nazim sitting in his chair smoking!!!!!

I have read from the works of sufis about their beliefs and it is corrupt! Just type in sufi beliefs or somethin and read some of their junk and ask urself is this normal. people from asia and africa tend to hold the same beliefs because it was the beliefs of the forefathers and they just blind follow it!

Salafis reject blind following this doesnt mean they reject madhabs, blind following is wen even if evidence is given to u and it goes against ur own 'shaykh's beliefs' u reject it!

BrotherAB
19-04-08, 06:31 PM
Authu billah, brother please dont assume on me something i havent said. I explained what wahdatul wujood is, and I have given reference for the founder of this thought, and you have agreed to it.

Nothing can contain Allah swt. That is why wahdatul wujood is wrong, you keep trying to justify it, and you say I am wrong for pointing out the truth about it. I am not mistaken by saying that is what they believe, if you deny it by saying it is simply 'easily misunderstood', then that is your provocative. So far as i am concern, i just need to propagate what is the truth about them, and the people can make judgment themselves.

Alhamdulillah I do not follow wahdatul wujood or wahdat usshuhood. Our methodology of Tazkiyah is as explained by Quran and Sunnah.

Secondly, if you put something that I havent said and say 'you said this' then there is no point in this discussion. If you believe that Wahdatul wujood is something other than what the founders of it believe, then please prove to us why. Since i dont follow it, it does not impact me, maybe you follow it and you should be very concerned since the fundamental definition is as stated before. This is what the likes of Ibn Arabi and Hallaj have said about it “I am He Whom I love,” he exclaimed, “He Whom I love is I; we are two souls co-inhabiting one body. If you see me you see Him and if you see Him you see me.”. Yes it is shirk and it does show lack of knowledge in aqeedah, so how can a true Muslim follow it? This is their words. If it is a lack of knowledge it is theirs, i am free from this statement.

Finally, if there is something you havent seen, then go sit with your shaiykh and ask him to explain to you, until you know better dont question the source, or try to make alternate meanings for it.Dear Hekmaa,

Thank you for your reply.

I did not attribute that statement of kufr to you, it is something you made out of ignorance. It is extremely important that one is careful with his choice of words when discussing such issues since there is a very thin line.

Can I please ask under whom you learnt the works of Ibn Arabi, for the second time? And where you got the first snippet from? Since you are propergating the truth. I do not know if you realized but the latter part of that snippet contradicts everything Ibn Arabi has to say on this field. So please do inform me of your source.


Nothing can contain Allah swt. That is why wahdatul wujood is wrong, you keep trying to justify it, and you say I am wrong for pointing out the truth about it. I am not mistaken by saying that is what they believe, if you deny it by saying it is simply 'easily misunderstood', then that is your provocative. So far as i am concern, i just need to propagate what is the truth about them, and the people can make judgment themselves. I see. Judging by the first line, I am sorry to say this but you are wrong. I advice you lay back before making such remarks. You are confusing Ibn Arabi's work with hindu beliefs. This is the usual propaganda the wahaabi/salafi ulemaa spur out regarding Ibn Arabi. It is 100% crystal clear that Allah is not contained or limited by creation. Creation is contained and sustained by Allah whereas Allah is not contained by anything. He has no limits, his attributes have no limits. This is a basic principle in this concept so I am suprised at your remark since you are meant to be learned in this field.

You said in your initial post "Allah manifests through creation". This is true and I dwelled further into this topic by outlining how Allah's attributes manifest through creation (refer to #228 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2539743&postcount=228)). On ones spiritual journey one will (if Allah wills) come to realize that the essence of existance is Allah, and he is behind everything. Al Hallaj realised this, he stopped assosicating his nafs with Allah and thus made the remarks he did. If we take for example in the Quran Allah says in An Nisa verse 139: Allatheena yattakhithoona alkafireena awliyaa min dooni almi mineena ayabtaghoona aaindahuma alaaizzata fa ina al aaizzata ilillahi jamee'an. Allah is rebuking those who take other than the believers as friends. The second part is the interesting bit, it says do they look for power (izzah)? All izzah belongs to Allah. So we can conclude that Allah is the source of izzah which is what I have been saying since the beginning. So to say that someone else has izzah and not realize it is really all from Allah is a form of lower shirk, since there is now a source other than Allah. Al Hallaj realized this and stopped associating his nafs with Allah and thus make the remark which led to his execution.

Please answer the following questions. Who is the source of existance? Where does everything come from? Until you answer these questions we will be going around in circles so please address them.

I would love to dwell deeper into this topic but I have run out of time. Forgive me if I have falsely attributed something to you.

Peace
BrotherAB

shamson
19-04-08, 06:31 PM
http://www.sheiknazim2.com

Access this page (type it in if link doesnt work) and read some of the blatent shirk these people commit , the 'shaykhs' commit shirk so in turn those who blind follow them commit shirk!

It is the duty of every muslim to gain knowledge about his Deen as this is what will send u to the fire or bless u will Jannah.

Read the rubbish on this website and then in turn read a book like kitab at tawheed and see the difference! Read books like 'The pillars od Islam and Iman by dar-us salam publications and you will see the blatent shirk of some of the sufis. And even if not all their actions of shirk are blatent it is still there!

I dislike the salafis because of their character but subhanAllah wen it comes to aqeedah and the core beliefs of islam and protecting that which nullifies tawheed they are the ones i wud take from.

If you commit shirk then ALL you acts of worship is invalid til u purify you beliefs - so if you do not go out to gain knowledge then how will you know if you are indeed amongst those who associates partners with Allah?

the_middle_road
19-04-08, 06:35 PM
erm in english please :o

I don't think it has been translated.

shamson
19-04-08, 06:36 PM
So sorry i know this is a long copy and paste but it is direct from the so called big sufi sahibs website!!!

Please tell me u people can see this rubbish for what is really is!!!!! SHIRK

-----------------------------------------------------

If Allah is willing (insha Allah), this is a technique which will be useful to all of you
after I leave your physical presence and go away. You will be in need of this
technique,

In this life, our physical meetings with each other shall be from time to time. It is not
possible for a person to be always in the company of another person whether it be
husband and wife, parents and children, brothers and sisters or amongst the most
beloved ones. A person may desire never to be far away from his loved ones.
However it is written that it shouldn’t take place. Firaq means separation and
everyone must meet and at sometime or other separate. As far as our physical
bodies are concerned it is written that we cannot be always together. It is just not
possible. However spiritually we have been given a power and technique through
which anyone may ask for such a meeting.

This is possible because our spiritualities have a possibility to be in connection.
When we remember that person our spiritual being is capable of being in connection
with that person. These connections have so many levels. Perfect Awliyas (Saints )
are always in connection with Rasoolullah (Sal). Anytime they desire such a
connection they should find themselves immediately in the Holy Presence of
Rasoolullah (Sal). They never leave Rasoolullah’s Spiritual Presence. This
technique is known as Huzur Ma’Rasool – that is connection with the Holy Prophet
Muhammad (sal). The people belonging to Tariqats are stepping in this direction in
order to obtain such a connection.

As we are yet beginners we should first practice an easy way. This easy way is
Huzur us Sheikh, that is to be in connection with your Sheikh. Anytime that you think
of your Sheikh, you may say “I am in the Holy Presence of my Grandsheikh”. At first
you may not see him, but a feeling of his presence may be felt by you. These
feelings are of various levels. A simple connection is to feel your Sheikh’s presence
always. Then gradually, you may come to the level of even feeling the breathing of
your Sheikh. Then further on you may see your Sheikh in front of you making the
Zikr “Allah”, “Allah”, and thereby giving power to you, and you look at him and follow
him. Then you will be present with Sheikh for you entire life. Thereafter you should
find yourself in the presence of the whole circle of the lovers of your Grandsheikh.
Then when that connection becomes perfect, you will be able to see your Sheikh
sitting with you, coming with you, going with you, being with you, being in you and
surrounding you. Then Sheikh shall be in you. You will then become changed
through the personality of your Sheikh. This is known as Fana-u-fis-Sheikh
(annihilation in Sheikh). You will leave your being and the personality and power of
your Sheikh will appear through yourself. Then you become the representative of
your Sheikh.

Then your Sheikh, through that personality will carry you to the Holy Presence of
Rasoolullah (Sal). Then Rasoolullah (Sal) will dress you with his Spiritual Body and
then you will become the representative of Rasoolullah (Sal). Rasoolullah is Zahir –
he appears through yourself. Then Rasoolullah (Sal), will take you to Huzur al Haq
(the Presence of Truth), to the Divine Presence of Lord Allah Almighty.

Almighty Allah will then dress you with Divine Lights and you then become
annihilated in Allah (Fana ul Filla). Then you will be leaving everything in your self,
and Divine Lights will appear through yourself, and you will become Khaliphatullah
(Representative of Allah). You shall then represent Allah through the Whole
Universe and He shall give this power to you. Wa Saharalakum maa fi samawathi wa
maa fil arli jameeyah – Holy Quran, tassaruf al tasliq – that is the power to be able to
do everything throughout the whole of creation and through all the Universes
according to His Divine Will. This is Khaliphatulla (Representative of Allah). All the
laws and Shariat that have been sent down through the Prophets are to teach
people and to guide people to this station. When you reach to the station of
Khaliphatullah you would achieve the final aim of all Shariat and all Tariqats. But you
are now so far away.

We are here only saying, that when your Sheikh’s physical presence leaves you and
if he is a Perfect Master (Murshidun Kamil), he must connect with everyone’s
spiritual being through himself and act as a bodyguard and move with that person
always. That Sheikh should never leave any one taking Bayyath (initiation) with him
without such a spiritual connection. He gives a telephone connection to you with a
code number. It may be a little difficult for you to reach to that code number
immediately, at first. He can reach to you anytime but for you to reach and connect
to him it may take a little bit of practice. When you use this code number you can
quickly communicate with him and make your connection.

Tariqats arrange this spiritual relationship among ourselves. Then gradually, with
our spiritual guides and then on to our Rasool (Sal) and then finally up to our
relationship with the Divine Presence.

However, the people of present day do not understand this. They are fighting
against Tariqats and refusing to accept them. They say that this is “Shirk”
(associating partners with Allah Almighty). They are very foolish people. They never
try to understand.

Therefore we may leave your presence but this connection that we gave to you
when you took Bayyath reaches to all those who have been given this Bayyath. In
the terminology of Tassawwaf (the sufi way), this connection is known as “Rabitah”
or “Rabitat us Sheikh” You can use it anytime and you will always find more power,
more courage, more taste, more improvement and more development in your
journey towards the Divine Presence. The Hijaazath (permission) to use this
technique is given to all of you.

The End