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Promised One
29-03-08, 06:45 PM
I saw another thread on something similar and wanted to share a verse I thought was powerful:

The one where Allah says that he makes perfect the tips of ppl's fingers and that is one of his proofs to consider.

If someone knows the exact verse, you can post it

I do not believe anyone had any idea that the fingerprints of each individual would never be the same.

If so, I would like to see the link.

Ibrahim70
29-03-08, 06:47 PM
Asalaam Alikum

http://www.answering-christianity.com/unique_fingerprints.htm

Allahu Akbar!!

Yes another proof of His existence.

Isambard
29-03-08, 06:50 PM
What about people born without fingers? Does Allah not like them or something?

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:00 PM
What about people born without fingers? Does Allah not like them or something?

Yeah, that doesnt even warrant a response but I am genuinely curious to hear non-Muslim feedback on it.

Isambard
29-03-08, 07:09 PM
Yeah, that doesnt even warrant a response but I am genuinely curious to hear non-Muslim feedback on it.

How does it not warrent a response? You claimed that 'perfect' fingertips is a proof of Allah. How can it be proof if it isnt always true?

Ibrahim70
29-03-08, 07:13 PM
Yeah, that doesnt even warrant a response but I am genuinely curious to hear non-Muslim feedback on it.

I couldnt really care less what a Non-Muslim has to say on this subject. Allah's verse is reason enough to marvel at our fingerprints, not some Non-Muslim who believe in evolution and whatnot.

THHuxley
29-03-08, 07:14 PM
I saw another thread on something similar and wanted to share a verse I thought was powerful:

The one where Allah says that he makes perfect the tips of ppl's fingers and that is one of his proofs to consider.

If someone knows the exact verse, you can post it

I do not believe anyone had any idea that the fingerprints of each individual would never be the same.

If so, I would like to see the link.
Al Qur'an 075.004YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

Notice first what this verse does not say.

1- It never mentions fingerprints at all... just "fingertips." There is no hint that the author of this ayaa is even aware that there are fingerprints. The fact that fingertips and fingerprints are not the same is readily demonstrated by Hawaiian Pineapple workers who often lose their fingerprints due to the keratolytic effect of a substance in pineapple sap called bromelain. They have no fingerprints.... but they still have fingertips.

2- It says nothing about fingerprints (or fingertips) being "unique."

So... any discussion of fingerprints and their uniqueness has nothing to do with the Qur'an.

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:22 PM
Al Qur'an 075.004YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

Notice first what this verse does not say.

1- It never mentions fingerprints at all... just "fingertips." There is no hint that the author of this ayaa is even aware that there are fingerprints. The fact that fingertips and fingerprints are not the same is readily demonstrated by Hawaiian Pineapple workers who often lose their fingerprints due to the keratolytic effect of a substance in pineapple sap called bromelain. They have no fingerprints.... but they still have fingertips.

2- It says nothing about fingerprints (or fingertips) being "unique."

So... any discussion of fingerprints and their uniqueness has nothing to do with the Qur'an.

The first one is the most accurate translation.

I understand what you are saying, it is not written in a black & white way that you would prefer, but why else is he calling attention to fingertips as a "proof" of his creation?..he doesnt say anything else like this.

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:28 PM
How does it not warrent a response? You claimed that 'perfect' fingertips is a proof of Allah. How can it be proof if it isnt always true?

it is always true if they have fingers. If they dont have fingers (which is what .000001%, yes, that proof of God's existance would not apply to them, but it doesnt make the verse inaccurate in any way.

Your point is foolish. That is not an exception that disproves anything.

Isambard
29-03-08, 07:29 PM
it is always true if they have fingers. If they dont have fingers (which is what .000001%, yes, that proof of God's existance would not apply to them, but it doesnt make the verse inaccurate in any way.

Your point is foolish. That is not an exception that disproves anything.

People with fingers always have finger tips? Sry no. The verse is false.

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:32 PM
People with fingers always have finger tips? Sry no. The verse is false.

thats not what I was saying at all!!??????? not sure how you got that

Joha
29-03-08, 07:33 PM
People with fingers always have finger tips? Sry no. The verse is false.

Isambard, you're being silly.

I could make a million watches - then ask people to marvel at the beautiful castle gear and to take that as evidence for the existence of a designer.

Now one of the watches has a broken gear. Does that mean that my statement is 'nullified'? Does that mean that I'm making a false statement?

Edit: I meant one of the watches not having a gear...which would make the analogy closer to what's being discussed.

Isambard
29-03-08, 07:36 PM
Isambard, you're being silly.

I could make a million watches - then ask people to marvel at the beautiful castle gear and to take that as evidence for the existence of a designer.

Now one of the watches has a broken gear. Does that mean that my statement is 'nullified'? Does that mean that I'm making a false statement?

It is when you claim that your watches are 'perfect'.

Isambard
29-03-08, 07:38 PM
thats not what I was saying at all!!??????? not sure how you got that

Huxxley corrected you. Based on the corrected verse, its wrong. The onld was was wrong as well as the same problem applies, but Im trying to adapt to the better translation.

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:39 PM
It is when you claim that your watches are 'perfect'.

yeah, but he is talking about making fingertips perfect, but if he didnt make a fingertip...that wouldnt apply then would it?

I am only responding to your silly line of thought bc I'm guessing you think youre real smart

Tahiyah
29-03-08, 07:40 PM
What about people born without fingers? Does Allah not like them or something?

*{It is He Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.}* (Aal `Imran 3:6)

Allah creates each and every one of us in a unique form. No two people since the time of Adam and Eve have ever been exactly alike. Even identical twins have their own personalities, likes and dislikes, and good and bad qualities. The Prophet is reported to have said:

There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment. (Al-Bukhari)

Those who are created with disabilities or special needs are unique in their own way. Allah tests us to see who among us is best in conduct. If some of us are born with apparent problems and deficiencies, there is no reason why we cannot search for ways to help them or to make their lives easier. It is a tremendous way to practice patience, mercy, helpfulness, and generosity with one another. It is not necessarily a curse on them that Allah has limited their abilities in certain things. All of us have limitations in our own abilities. Some of us are limited in our ability to do things that many others take for granted, such as the ability to see, hear, or to communicate clearly with others.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1168265475508&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam%2FAskAboutIslamE%2FAskAboutIslamE

Promised One
29-03-08, 07:40 PM
he did not say "I will give every person a finger tip"...that would be the only way your point would make sense...

such a silly way for this thread to go...I wont respond to anything more from you at this point no matter what rubbish comes from you next..

I am open to others thoughts though

WahYaLookin'At?
29-03-08, 07:41 PM
Huxxley corrected you. Based on the corrected verse, its wrong. The onld was was wrong as well as the same problem applies, but Im trying to adapt to the better translation.

Better translation? Read the Arabic, there is no mistakes in that,

Translation are written by man,

The Qur'an (Arabic) is Gods words,

Cheerio.

Joha
29-03-08, 07:42 PM
It is when you claim that your watches are 'perfect'.

Nope, I can say that the castle rigs on my watches are perfect.

They may be missing in 1 out of a million. That doesn't make the castle gears any less perfect. It makes the watches imperfect.

To be fair, however, do any of you even know what the verse says in Arabic? What the word used for 'perfect', and whether it even means 'perfect' in the literal sense of the English word?

Isambard
29-03-08, 08:02 PM
he did not say "I will give every person a finger tip"...that would be the only way your point would make sense...

such a silly way for this thread to go...I wont respond to anything more from you at this point no matter what rubbish comes from you next..

I am open to others thoughts though

"The one where Allah says that he makes perfect the tips of ppl's fingers and that is one of his proofs to consider."

Imperfect finger involves imperfect fingertips. I can understand your adversion to addressing the critizisms raised. Getting owned hurts ;)

Isambard
29-03-08, 08:03 PM
Nope, I can say that the castle rigs on my watches are perfect.

They may be missing in 1 out of a million. That doesn't make the castle gears any less perfect. It makes the watches imperfect.

To be fair, however, do any of you even know what the verse says in Arabic? What the word used for 'perfect', and whether it even means 'perfect' in the literal sense of the English word?

(In your example) would mean the watch creator is inperfect. Now apply this to God. Is God inperfect as well?

Isambard
29-03-08, 08:07 PM
*{It is He Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.}* (Aal `Imran 3:6)

Allah creates each and every one of us in a unique form. No two people since the time of Adam and Eve have ever been exactly alike. Even identical twins have their own personalities, likes and dislikes, and good and bad qualities. The Prophet is reported to have said:

There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment. (Al-Bukhari)

Those who are created with disabilities or special needs are unique in their own way. Allah tests us to see who among us is best in conduct. If some of us are born with apparent problems and deficiencies, there is no reason why we cannot search for ways to help them or to make their lives easier. It is a tremendous way to practice patience, mercy, helpfulness, and generosity with one another. It is not necessarily a curse on them that Allah has limited their abilities in certain things. All of us have limitations in our own abilities. Some of us are limited in our ability to do things that many others take for granted, such as the ability to see, hear, or to communicate clearly with others.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

How does address Allah making humans 'perfect' (or any part of them 'perfect')?

This seems to contradict the OPs assumption. A more accurate statement wouldve been "Allah makes some humans (physically) perfect some of the time" or more specific to the thread "Allah makes finger tips sometimes perfect".

Of course neither of these statements would be proof of God.

Humanoid
30-03-08, 11:02 AM
I saw another thread on something similar and wanted to share a verse I thought was powerful:
The one where Allah says that he makes perfect the tips of ppl's fingers and that is one of his proofs to consider.
If someone knows the exact verse, you can post it
I do not believe anyone had any idea that the fingerprints of each individual would never be the same.


Al Qur'an 075.004YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

As with many ayats there is a strong inclination for muslims to read with an "eye of faith" rather than with total objectivity.
OK lets assume that, arguments aside , Allah did mean ""fingerprints" when he talked about fingertips.
So far , so good.
From this , assuming the arabic is accurately interpreted despite it being vague, Allah is pointing out that all people have different fingerprints and the miracle being that this was not known at the time. Correct?

Here's were we hit the stumbling block. Not only are your fingerprints unique to you, but so are your footprints .
And the creases in your hand.
And the ridges in the roof of your mouth.
And the shape of your ears
And your nose
.....and I could go on but you get my point.

So there is nothing more unique about fingerprints than there is about any other part of your body.

HOWEVER, fingerprints were the first relatively reliable forensic method that were discovered ( I say relatively , because alot depends on the quality of the prints and the competence of the person examining them).

In fact before fingerprints there was an attempt to use ear size and shape to determine a criminals true identity when caught. This obviously was no use in a scene of crime situation , but was developed to help crack down on criminals who gave false names. It was abandoned because it was too difficult to use.

Nowadays DNA evidence can be a more reliable marker , but even that is not infallible.

Back to the point though. If Allah meant fingerprints , why didn't he make it clearer,mentioning the swirls, loops and ridges ,so that there could be no doubt? It was certainly not because of a shortage of vocabulary.Why leave it so vague?

Hekmaa
30-03-08, 11:49 AM
Tips of fingers; when someone does a crime what do the police look for? finger prints, and where do the finger prints come from, tips of the fingers.

Why are the tips of fingers so significant, it is like the physical signatures, trade mark of every person. It is like the physical equivalent of the DNA.

The detail carried in the finger is enough to identify a person, yet the tip of the finger is also the most sensitive part of the body. Hence Allah swt says that he can create (re-create) perfectly without any error, back to the detail of ones finger prints. Without mixing any two. The significance of this really comes to light when you look at multiple burials in a single grave, mass graves. Where all the bodies decompose together and they turn into one dust. However Allah swt recreates to that details, to that exactness, such exactness that they can be identified one by one, to the detail of their finger prints. Therefor emphasis is not on just why the finger is mentioned, but what meaning it conveys. The Quran being a revelation for all time, takes into considerations its audience both in the beduion nomadic deserts of Arabia, and the sophisticated peoples of the 21st Century. Hence the example of the finger.

I hope that helps.

Humanoid
30-03-08, 12:24 PM
Tips of fingers; when someone does a crime what do the police look for? finger prints, and where do the finger prints come from, tips of the fingers.

Why are the tips of fingers so significant, it is like the physical signatures, trade mark of every person. It is like the physical equivalent of the DNA.
No, it's not. Fingerprints cannot tell us whether you are tall or short ,what colour eyes you have,or even if you are a man or woman.



The detail carried in the finger is enough to identify a person, yet the tip of the finger is also the most sensitive part of the body. Hence Allah swt says that he can create (re-create) perfectly without any error, back to the detail of ones finger prints. Without mixing any two.
what does that actually mean?

The significance of this really comes to light when you look at multiple burials in a single grave, mass graves. Where all the bodies decompose together and they turn into one dust. However Allah swt recreates to that details, to that exactness, such exactness that they can be identified one by one, to the detail of their finger prints.
Absolute rubbish.
If the bodies are decomposes then the fingertips will too. Only the hard tissues may remain,and of those the teeth last longest.



Therefor emphasis is not on just why the finger is mentioned, but what meaning it conveys. The Quran being a revelation for all time, takes into considerations its audience both in the beduion nomadic deserts of Arabia, and the sophisticated peoples of the 21st Century. Hence the example of the finger.

I hope that helps.

Thanks , but it doesn't really.

Joha
30-03-08, 12:44 PM
Absolute rubbish.
If the bodies are decomposes then the fingertips will too. Only the hard tissues may remain,and of those the teeth last longest.


I don't know if you bothered to read Hekmaa's post, or even the paragraph that this is a response to. Go back and re-read it, Hekmaa said nothing of the sort - he didn't say, or even imply that fingertips don't decompose.

In fact - in that paragraph he's said the complete opposite.

GothiKa
30-03-08, 12:46 PM
If Allah meant fingerprints , why didn't he make it clearer,mentioning the swirls, loops and ridges ,so that there could be no doubt? It was certainly not because of a shortage of vocabulary.Why leave it so vague?

You have to see it in the light of logic. Was it logical for Allah to not mention those characteristics? Considering that the Quran is a book of signs, and the verse in question is a sign about fingertips, it would be a contradiction to go into details.

Humanoid
30-03-08, 01:03 PM
I don't know if you bothered to read Hekmaa's post, or even the paragraph that this is a response to. Go back and re-read it, Hekmaa said nothing of the sort - he didn't say, or even imply that fingertips don't decompose.

In fact - in that paragraph he's said the complete opposite.

Apologies for my harsh reply previously, but if you read his post


The significance of this really comes to light when you look at multiple burials in a single grave, mass graves.
ok

Where all the bodies decompose together and they turn into one dust.
ok-ish

However Allah swt recreates to that details, to that exactness, such exactness that they can be identified one by one, to the detail of their finger prints

What is he talking about? Recreating people from their decomposed bodies ? Allah does that ? Where? In the afterlife?
If he's talking about in jannah then no debate is necessary as it is a matter of faith and not of science.
However if he is implying something that may happen on earth then I am very confused.

Humanoid
30-03-08, 01:05 PM
You have to see it in the light of logic. Was it logical for Allah to not mention those characteristics? Considering that the Quran is a book of signs, and the verse in question is a sign about fingertips, it would be a contradiction to go into details.

Why would it be a contradiction? Why not make it clear?

GothiKa
30-03-08, 01:14 PM
Why would it be a contradiction?

It's up to you to show that it wouldn't be a logical contradiction.

Ralf Biermann
30-03-08, 03:16 PM
This is an interesting topic. The science about it is called Dermatoglyphics.


Date Person Historical Event 1685 Gouard Bidloo First book with detailed drawings of fingerprints 1686 Marcello Malpighi Professor of Anatomy at the University of Barcelona. First to chronicle observations of fingerprints under microscope 1788 J.C.A. Mayer First to write out basic tenets of fingerprint analysis. "Although the arrangement of skin ridges is never duplicated in two persons, nevertheless, the similarities are closer among some individuals. In others, the differences are marked, yet in spite of their peculiarities of arrangement, all have a certain likeness."(4) (http://www.handanalysis.net/library/derm_history.htm#4) 1823 John E. Purkinje Professor of Anatomy at the University of Breslau. First classification system, nine print categories.(5) (http://www.handanalysis.net/library/derm_history.htm#5) 1833 Sir Charles Bell Anatomist: studied structure and function of hands. The Hand: Its Mechanism and Vital Endowments as Evincing Design.(6) (http://www.handanalysis.net/library/derm_history.htm#6) 1858 Sir Wm. Herschel British Chief Administration Officer Hooghly District, Bengal India.(7) 1880 Dr. Henry Faulds Tsukji Hospital, Tokyo; article in Nature.(8) Suggests picking up fingerprints at crime scene. 1883 Mark Twain Life on the Mississippi: Dramatic fingerprint identification secures conviction
The Will West Case At around the turn of the century, Will West was brought to Leavenworth, Kansas for incarceration. When questioned about his prior record, West denied ever have been incarcerated before. The Bertillon Measurement System was employed (detailed facial measurements used to establish identification) and a match was found in the prison records. The matching file included the Bertillon measurements and a photograph that looked just like the new prisoner. The name on the file was William West. The only problem was that William West was already in prison, serving a life sentence for murder!
Fingerprints were taken of William West and compared to the new prisoner, Will West and proved beyond a doubt that these were two distinct individuals. In one fell swoop. fingerprint analysis leapfrogged three alternate identification systems: name, photo, and the Bertillon System.
1892 Sir Francis Galton Anthropologist, cousin of Charles Darwin, Finger Prints is his landmark publication. If Cummins is the father of dermatoglyphics, Galton is the "inventor".(9) First practical method of fingerprint identification, responsible for basic nomenclature (arch, loop, whorl). Scientifically demonstrated permanence of fingerprints, first twins research. 1897 Harris Hawthorne Wilder First American to study dermatoglyphics. Named the A, B, C, D triradii points, invented the Main Line Index, studied thenar hypothenar eminencies, zones II, III, IV(10). 1904 Inez Whipple First serious study of non-human prints.(11) 1923 Kristine Bonnevie First extensive genetic studies.

Al-Qiyama
1. I do call to witness the Resurrection Day; 2. And I do call to witness the self-reproaching spirit; (Eschew Evil). 3. Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? 4. Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.

It is interesting that the uniqueness of the finger tips is emphasized in the Qur'an long time before the scientific background was made.

THHuxley
30-03-08, 05:20 PM
The first one is the most accurate translation.

I understand what you are saying, it is not written in a black & white way that you would prefer, but why else is he calling attention to fingertips as a "proof" of his creation?..he doesnt say anything else like this.
It is not even written in shades of gray.

Fingertips are (compared to the rest of the body) trivial and tiny things. The Qur'an uses them as representative of Allah's complete ability to reassemble the human body. The Qur'an elsewhere uses "atoms" (in the ancient Greek sense, not the modern physics sense) as signs of his complete knowledge. It's the same thing.

It's not that hard.... and certainly gives no hint of any awareness of fingerprints.

THHuxley
30-03-08, 05:35 PM
Tips of fingers; when someone does a crime what do the police look for? finger prints, and where do the finger prints come from, tips of the fingers.
All that is true. Too bad this ayaa not only doesn't mention fingerprints at all, it also does not mention either police, crimes or criminal investigations.


Why are the tips of fingers so significant, it is like the physical signatures, trade mark of every person. It is like the physical equivalent of the DNA.
Now that would have been an impressive display of "miraculous scientific information" if the ayaa said something like, "Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his DNA."

But it doesn't.


The detail carried in the finger is enough to identify a person, yet the tip of the finger is also the most sensitive part of the body.
Not to be rude... but if you believe that you must have never had sex.


Hence Allah swt says that he can create (re-create) perfectly without any error, back to the detail of ones finger prints.
But the Qur'an does not say that. It never mentions fingerprints once. It does not even appear to be aware that fingerprints even exist.

THHuxley
30-03-08, 05:37 PM
You have to see it in the light of logic. Was it logical for Allah to not mention those characteristics? Considering that the Quran is a book of signs, and the verse in question is a sign about fingertips, it would be a contradiction to go into details.
That's one possible explanation.

A more prosaic one, though, is that the authors of the Qur'an said nothing about fingerprints because they didn't know about them in the first.

THHuxley
30-03-08, 05:39 PM
It's up to you to show that it wouldn't be a logical contradiction.
Nonsense. You are the only one making a logical claim. Humanoid has no obligation to put any effort into validating a bald assertion on your part.

THHuxley
30-03-08, 05:40 PM
It is interesting that the uniqueness of the finger tips is emphasized in the Qur'an long time before the scientific background was made.
The Qur'an says nothing about the "uniqueness" of fingertips.

Promised One
30-03-08, 09:33 PM
It is not even written in shades of gray.

Fingertips are (compared to the rest of the body) trivial and tiny things. The Qur'an uses them as representative of Allah's complete ability to reassemble the human body. The Qur'an elsewhere uses "atoms" (in the ancient Greek sense, not the modern physics sense) as signs of his complete knowledge. It's the same thing.

It's not that hard.... and certainly gives no hint of any awareness of fingerprints.

that is pure conjecture, if you consider yourself objective, you will admit that.

Rather, you should present it as an alternative theory instead of sounding so sure of it...also, in that theory you have to concede there happens to be a large coincidence in the words that were used.

Promised One
30-03-08, 09:39 PM
Al Qur'an 075.004YUSUFALI: Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers.
PICKTHAL: Yea, verily. We are Able to restore his very fingers!
SHAKIR: Yea! We are able to make complete his very fingertips

As with many ayats there is a strong inclination for muslims to read with an "eye of faith" rather than with total objectivity.
OK lets assume that, arguments aside , Allah did mean ""fingerprints" when he talked about fingertips.
So far , so good.
From this , assuming the arabic is accurately interpreted despite it being vague, Allah is pointing out that all people have different fingerprints and the miracle being that this was not known at the time. Correct?

Here's were we hit the stumbling block. Not only are your fingerprints unique to you, but so are your footprints .
And the creases in your hand.
And the ridges in the roof of your mouth.
And the shape of your ears
And your nose
.....and I could go on but you get my point.

So there is nothing more unique about fingerprints than there is about any other part of your body.

HOWEVER, fingerprints were the first relatively reliable forensic method that were discovered ( I say relatively , because alot depends on the quality of the prints and the competence of the person examining them).

In fact before fingerprints there was an attempt to use ear size and shape to determine a criminals true identity when caught. This obviously was no use in a scene of crime situation , but was developed to help crack down on criminals who gave false names. It was abandoned because it was too difficult to use.

Nowadays DNA evidence can be a more reliable marker , but even that is not infallible.

Back to the point though. If Allah meant fingerprints , why didn't he make it clearer,mentioning the swirls, loops and ridges ,so that there could be no doubt? It was certainly not because of a shortage of vocabulary.Why leave it so vague?

Well really, why didnt God give us an exact breakdown of how the universe started and give us the map of our DNA too?

If you cant understand the answer to that question, then you wont understand this

THHuxley
30-03-08, 09:47 PM
that is pure conjecture, if you consider yourself objective, you will admit that.
What you have written about fingertips is pure conjecture.

There is no conjecture whatsoever that the Qur'an says nothing about fingerprints or that there is anything unique about them.


Rather, you should present it as an alternative theory instead of sounding so sure of it...also, in that theory you have to concede there happens to be a large coincidence in the words that were used.
There is no need for an "alternative" to a "theory" that explains nothing.

There is no coincidence at all... there is nothing more than an ayaa referring to fingertips. The words that were used are far less importnat in this case than the words that were not used.

These include "fingerprint" and "unique."

THHuxley
30-03-08, 09:50 PM
Well really, why didnt God give us an exact breakdown of how the universe started and give us the map of our DNA too?
Any number of reasons. But the one in the lead is that the authors of the Qur'an are not God in the first place and so didn't know anything about DNA (or fingerprints).

But regardless of what the reason actually is, it is almost certainly the same reason that the ayaa says nothing about fingerprints or their uniqueness.

You're the one who labeled the verse as "proof." It appears that you have very, very, very low standards when it comes to proof.

Promised One
30-03-08, 09:59 PM
Any number of reasons. But the one in the lead is that the authors of the Qur'an are not God in the first place and so didn't know anything about DNA (or fingerprints).

But regardless of what the reason actually is, it is almost certainly the same reason that the ayaa says nothing about fingerprints or their uniqueness.

You're the one who labeled the verse as "proof." It appears that you have very, very, very low standards when it comes to proof.

We know that fingerprints are a unique feature to all humans, and we have a verse where Allah is calling attention to finger prints as a "proof" of his creation. There are no other parts of the body where he repeats this. It is hardly a giant leap to get from point A to point B on this, you are making it seem like it is.

That said, in Islam, all the "proofs" are very weak by your standards. Rather they are more like observations to meditate on. I can understand the reasoning for that very well but understand some ppl just dont see it like that.

Nero
30-03-08, 10:13 PM
We know that fingerprints are a unique feature to all humans

Not necessarily so:


Contrary to what is generally thought, there is little scientific basis for assuming that any two supposedly identical fingerprints unequivocally come from the same person. Indeed, according to a report published in December, the only major research explicitly commissioned to validate the technique is based on flawed assumptions and an incorrect use of statistics. The research has never been openly peer reviewed.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4611

THHuxley
30-03-08, 10:14 PM
We know that fingerprints are a unique feature to all humans, and we have a verse where Allah is calling attention to finger prints as a "proof" of his creation.
And yet the Qur'an says nothing about fingerprints or that they are unique. One ayaa earlier the Qur'an speaks of bones. They are unique too, you know. Or didn't you know?

Further more... where does the ayaa say anything about "proof?" At mostst it is an "assertion" regarding what Allah can do. It says nothing about it being a "proof" of anything.


There are no other parts of the body where he repeats this. It is hardly a giant leap to get from point A to point B on this, you are making it seem like it is.
There is no leap at all between them. The chasm is so large as to make it unleapable.

And as I pointed out already, one ayaa earlier the Qur'an mentions bones in the exact same context.


That said, in Islam, all the "proofs" are very weak by your standards. Rather they are more like observations to meditate on. I can understand the reasoning for that very well but understand some ppl just dont see it like that.
Therefore they are (by definition) not "proofs" at all.

Nero
30-03-08, 10:31 PM
I may be joining this thread a bit late, but to be syntactically correct a finger print is the impression left by ones fingers upon a surface, not the actual pattern on the end of one’s digits. As such finger prints are not necessarily unique to the individual nor the digit leaving it, but are open to interpretation.

To use an analogy, the pattern on the sole of your boot does not necessarily translate into the mark your boot makes in the mud.

Thanks

Humanoid
31-03-08, 01:18 AM
That said, in Islam, all the "proofs" are very weak by your standards. Rather they are more like observations to meditate on. I can understand the reasoning for that very well but understand some ppl just dont see it like that.

I'm glad you admit to that. I'm amazed by the number of muslims who believe that if some imam has stated a "scientific" fact is correctly predicted by the Quran, require no more proof whatsoever ( not even that the arabic has been correctly interpreted).

PLEASE EXCUSE ME but I'll quote myself now. This is from a previous thread on evolution but it applies equally to all science when examined by muslims.


The anti-evolutionists have bizarre double standards.
I'll use the analogy of a murder suspect.
When it comes to evolution, the haters want not just the murder weapon ,fingerprints, dna evidence, motive and opportunity . They also demand a full confession, 25 witnesses, and a realtime video of the event from 4 different angles.

When it comes to creationism they are happy to convict on hearsay from their next door neighbour.

Hekmaa
31-03-08, 01:37 AM
No, it's not. Fingerprints cannot tell us whether you are tall or short ,what colour eyes you have,or even if you are a man or woman.

If you read my post with an open mind and not with preset notions, you would have picked up that i said "the physical". Based on finger prints they can determine who the person is.

what does that actually mean?
If you read it again, it will possibly make sense. If it doesnt then sorry, cant help.

Absolute rubbish.
If the bodies are decomposes then the fingertips will too. Only the hard tissues may remain,and of those the teeth last longest.

Which is exactly the point, everything decomposes, which highlights how great the detail is, if it will be reconstructed to the degree of finger/print detail. But again you dont want to see that so it is easier to say rubbish. Then you guys complain when the other Muslims give you a hard time, because when we do give you a chance you behave like a rude child.

Thanks , but it doesn't really.

You are welcome, but i doubt anything can help you. No further comments, have a nice day.