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Skilly
21-02-08, 04:43 PM
Censure of Kalam: A Consensus of the Ages



by: Abu Abdallah (sunnipress (http://www.sunnipress.com/))


The Salaf al-Salih condemmned Kalâm, very harshly. They are unanimous in their rejection of it, as narrated from the Imams and their students. There is not a single evidence from the righteous predecessors who are known with religious leadership and who took part in Kalâmi discussions or approved of it. Many books have been written on this. Refer to authors like Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Batta al-’Ukbari, Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi, Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami, Abu’l-Fadl al-Muqri, Abdallah al-Ansari al-Harawi, Ibn Tahir al-Maqdisi, Abu’l-Muzaffar al-Sam’ani etcetera.


Here are a few statements from the Imams of the past. These words carry authority with the Ahl al-Sunnah and they provide ample evidence with respect to their agreement in forbidding and censuring Kalâm, whether called: ‘Ilm al-Kalâm, ‘Ilm Usul al-Din or anything else. If it is based upon the foreign ‘knowledge’ of the Greeks and their ilk, it is rejected.


I shall try also to explain some of their statements, clarifying their intended meanings with the Help of Allah. I shall not bother about the authenticity question of the narrations I bring forth, for whoever has little knowledge of the Salaf’s way know that most of it is authentic; and whoever has no knowledge can trace the statements and judge himself.


I remember several discussions wherein people speak in praise and positively about Kalâm, knowingly that the Salaf abhored it and condemned its practioners. However they interpreted part of their statements or all of it, opposing the apparent meaning of theirs. Indeed, they opposed the clear-cut decisive impact of the Salaf. They do that as blind followers of particular callers of today, who cleverly voice the weak and shaky opinions of some late prominent Ash’arites who felt the need to interpret many anti-Kalâmi statements too. With Allah is Help sought!


Kalâm - A Short Overview
What is Kalâm? Kalâm is today usually translated as scholastic theology or speculative theology. It is a way or mode of argumentation and discussion - probably also the reason why it is called kalâm, lit. speech - which finds its origin outside of Islam, nay outside Arabia!


If we go back to the history of this ’science’, we’ll find it being ‘founded’ by the foreign Greeks. Definitely, some of the terms and meanings handled by mutakalliműn are already found with philosophers of the past. Indeed, the pre-Socratici used some definitions of expressions which would become the ‘core of [all] Kalâm’ afterwards (with Kalâm I mean here: Arabic Kalâm, i.e. which is written in Arabic or coming forth from it such as Jewish Kalâm).


A founding father of the Greek philosophy is Herakleitos, an Ionian philosopher. He is one of the earliest of dialectic philosophers who influenced Socrates, Plato and many others. Indeed, al-jadal (lit. disputation, argumentation) is counted as dialectic by many scholars of Usul al-Fiqh and Usul al-Din. However, not all types and forms of jadal are likened to the Greek dialectics. There is jadal that is allowed and there is jadal that is forbidden and blameworthy, differently from Kalâm as this will be clear.


After Herakleitos, a ‘founding father’ of dialectics which is an important art for the Mutakallim, two Greek scholars are influential in the history of Greek philosophy, but even more so in the history of Muslim philosophy (meaning: utilized by Muslims or people of the Qibla): Leukippos and Demokritos. The former introduced the atomic theory, the backbone of all Kalâm, which would find a home in the Muslim world - unfortunately.


The atomic theory of Democritus is about ’space’, which is occupied by countless seperable ‘parts’. These ‘parts’ have nothing in them and they occupy all ’space’; they also are attributed with undivideness: for this reason they are called ‘atoms’. Leukippos and Democritos could not imagine, when they first coined this term and gave it a definition, what impact their atomic theory would have in the world! There is much more to say about ‘atoms’, called by the Arab Mutakallimun and philosophers: Jawâhir (sing. al-jawhar). It is not far-off to say that Democritos is the founder of all Kalâm, even though it was just a begin.


Through Greek thinkers such as Socrates, Plato, Aristoteles and Roman thinkers as Plotinus, the Greek-Latin heritage of philosophers about God, life, being, dialectics, atoms, accidents, void, space, contingency, origination, duration, attribute, meaning etc. crept into the Muslim Ummah. This started in the first two centuries of Islam, i.e. the formative period. Names of Muslims that can be brought in relation with these foreign terms, definitions and theories (the Greek science were eventually called ‘ulűm al-’ajami, i.e. foreign sciences) in its earliest times can be found in Ibn al-Nadmi’s Fihrist and elsewhere.


The first important Mutakalliműn - some might call them the founders of Arabic Kalâm - are probably Wasil b. ‘Ata and ‘Amr b. ‘Ubayr, the founding fathers of Mu’tazilah. al-Ja’d b. Dirham, Ma’bad al-Juhani and others may have utilized also Greek ’speech’ in discovering beings and formulating matters. Below you might find references to ‘Amr b. ‘Ubayd’s involvement in Kalâm, considered then: philosophy (falsafah). And Kalâm is philosophy in that stage of Arab scholarship, since it was not fully developed. Another important contributor would be Jahm b. Safwan, who would fit according to some modern scholars into the tradition of Neo-platonic thinkers. A rare debate between Jahm and some Buddhists (who also had an atomic theory, like the Hindus before the Arabs) is recorded in Ahmad’s Radd ‘ala’l-Zanaqidah wa’l-Jahmiyyah.


Essentially, the philosophy and dialectics of the Greek and Romans and their followers krept in the period of the Salaf. The Qadarite Mu’tazilah and the Jahmiyyah are factually the masters of this discipline. Important contributors in Kalâm were: Abu’l-Hudhayl, Dirar b. ‘Amr, al-’Allâf, Bishr b. Ghiyat, al-Mu’tamir, al-Nazzam, al-Ka’bi and Abu ‘Ali al-Jubba’i. From the Jahmite-Mu’tazilite Kalâm several schools sprung out or forms were developed, each party utilizing Kalâm in defense of their beliefs and theories against others: Shi’ite-Zaydite school, Shi’ite-Rafidite school, Kullabite-Ash’arite school etc. A lot influenced by the Greek-Latin heritage, many times through Christian theologians and natural philosophers with pantheďstic beliefs such as Sabi’iyyah, renounced the Kalâmi disciple or its backbone (the dividing of existence into eternal and originated, the theory of atom, body and accident, together with the principles and rules that govern their modes of argument); they are the philosophers, i.e. the pure ones. For Aristoteles and others have rejected many of it foundations, beside Plato and others. al-Kindi, al-Farabi and eventually Ibn Sina are considered philosophers who have a travelled a different path than the Mutakallimun; Ibn Rushd would follow Greek philosophy extremer than all of them and in his rejection of the Mutakallimun, altogether.


In the Ash’arite tradition Kalâm would find a continuance, untill our day. Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash’ari himself was trained in the Mu’tazilite Kalâm, drilled in dialectic of the Mu’tazilah. He continued most of this Kalâm in his writings, just like Ibn Kullab would have done before when debating the Mu’tzilite Mutakallimun, even though he renounced some of its most crucial arguments (i.e. the dalil al-hudűth: the argument of contingency) in a later work. It is his heir Abu Bakr b. al-Baqillani - incorrectly considered the one who introduced the Atomic theory, he revised or renewed it - who would give Kalâm a new input. Through Ibn al-Juwayni and others it received an important place among the Ash’arites. Manuals on Kalâm from Ibn al-Juwayni are considered the best, together with those of his students. Today, the most revered Mutakallimun of the later Ash’arite tradition - and probably their best - are: al-Shahrastani, Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, Sayf al-Din al-Amidi, al-Baydawi, Shams al-Din al-Isfahani, al-Taftazani etcetera. Today many read into the works of al-Dhurdhani, al-Dawani, al-Laqani, al-Fadali and other later Ash’arites.


Kalâm as defined by me - in short and not exhaustive - is a discipline, or a so-called science, or a handicraft, finding its origins in dialectics, atomic theory, logic and other subjects, originally coming from the Greek-Latin (and possibly Buddhist) tradition. It is picked up and used by the early Qadarites, Jahmites and Mu’tazilites. Some Muslim philosophers used it too, even though they would become the enemies of the Mu’tazilah who are the Ahl al-Kalam par excellence. Through the Mu’tazilah Sunnites got influenced: men like al-Karabisi, al-Harith al-Muhasibi and the crucial Ibn Kullab. Eventually, al-Ash’ari continued it as a former Mu’tazilite in the [Kullabite-] Sunnite tradition. His followers made it even one of the most important and necessary subject for a Muslim, some of these same followers considered the ignorasmus of Kalâm even not a Muslim. Kalâm has terms (ma’ani), expressions (alfâz) and definitions (istilahât); it has rules and principles. It is blamed and condemned critically by the Salaf, and it is not based on anything close to the Qur’an or Hadith or even Athar of the Sahaba.


The Censure of Kalam by the Salaf

The following are statements from scholars of the Salaf concerning Kalâm. I have left out so many more, in order to be brief. I want to draw attention to one particular manner in which Kalâm has been condemned: unconditional.


All statements here, except a few which I shall explain later with Allah’s Permission, are unconditionally critical of Kalâm. If Kalâm had any good in it, no scholar from the Salaf would blame it unconditionally. Indeed, scholars who came after them agreed unanimously in their rejection of Kalâm and its people - as preceded in the Intro.


The claim of the existence of Sunni Kalâm is a fallacy! It is a despicable saying, worse than claiming Ta’wil. That is because Kalâm is foreign, more than Ta’wil. Kalâm comes from the polytheists, the Saba’nians, the Christians, the philosophers, atheists and their ilk. It does not matter that some scholars, how great they may be, indulged in it. The unanimity of the Salaf precludes any doubt concerning its forbiddance, and what they actually forbade.


I’m aware of the ‘defense’ of Kalâm, by some. Their support or praise for it is explained by:


a) their ignorance concerning Kalâm or their inadequate knowledge of it


b) their deception, after knowing that Kalâm is forbidden and blamed


First of all: people who support certain views irreconcilable with the related Ijma’, should use a reliable way of deducing certain opinions. One should not simply set aside an Ijma’, based upon the act of some scholar or the opinion of another. For if we allow things forbidden unanimously, except by one or two, we might permit everything wherein a dissent opinion can be recorded.


Second: people should not blindly follow an opinion, whoever he may be; let alone if he is a very late scholars, not from the Salaf! Every opinion does not stand on its own, except by proof. And not every proof is admissable, except after close scrutiny. Here I like to draw attention to what al-Bayhaqi, Ibn ‘Asakir and whoever followed them in that opinioned in this matter - wrong and mistakenly. We shall clarify that, soon, Insha’Allah.


[If Allah Wills, I shall explain some ambiguous passages]


Imam Malik said:


“Whoever seeks the religion through Kalâm becomes a Zindiq! And whoever seeks money [through alchemy] becomes bankrupt. And whoever seeks the strange narrations becomes a liar!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:115 no.873]


Abd al-Rahman b. Mahdi said:


“I entered upon Malik, and with him was a man asking him. So he said: ‘It seems you are from the companions of ‘Amr b. ‘Ubayd? May Allah curse ‘Amr! Verily, he innovated this innovation of Kalâm; and if Kalâm had been knowledge, then the Companions and the Followers would have spoken about it, just as they spoke about the rules and regulations.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:116 no.874]


Imam Malik stated:


“I do not like Kalam except in what involves ‘Amal (action), but as for Kalam about God, silence is better than it.”

Malik used to say also:


“Kalâm concerning the religion I hate. And the people of our land (i.e. Madinah al-Munawwarah) have not ceased to detest it and to prohibit from it, like the idle speech founded in the opinion of Jahm and al-Qadar and everything that resembles that. And speech (kalâm) is not liked, except when it has action under it. So as for speech (kalâm) concerning the religion of Allah and concerning Allah ,the Mighty and Majestic, then silence is beloved to me. For I have seen the people of our country prohibiting from speech concerning the Religion, except that which has action under it.”

[Source: Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr, Jami’ Bayân al-’Ilm wa Fadlihi p. 415]


Malik also said:


“‘Beware of the innovations!’ It was said, ‘O Abu ‘Abdallah, what are the innovations?’ He said: ‘Ahl al-Bida’, those who speak concerning the Names of Allah and His Attributes and His Speech and His Knowledge and His Power; and they do not remain silent about that which the Companions and the Followers, and those who followed them in goodness, kept silent!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:115 no.872]


Malik said:


“Even if a man commits all of the major sins, except for Shirk with Allah, then he returns from these desires and innovations,’ and he mentioned Kalâm, ‘he enters Paradise.’”

[Source: Abu Nu’aym al-Isfahani, Hilyat al-Awliya’ 6:325; something similar has been narrated from al-Shafi’i, see Damm al-Kalam no.1137 and no.1138]


Imam Abu Hanifah said:


“The Ashab al-Ahwa’ in Basra are many. And I entered it twenty odd times, sometimes I stayed there for a year or more, or less, under the impression that the science of Kalâm (’ilm al-kalâm) was the greatest of sciences.”

[Source: al-Kurdi, Manâqib Abi Hanifah p. 137]


From Hammad b. Abi Hanifah its related:


“My father, may Allah have mercy upon him, entered upon me one day and with me were a group from the Ashab al-Kalâm, and we were arguing at a door. So when I heard him approaching the house, I went out to him. So he said to me: ‘O Hammad, who is with you?’ I said: ‘So and so, and so and so, such and such, and such and such’, and I named to him those who were with me. Then he said to me: ‘O Hammad, leave alone Kalâm.’ He said: ‘And my father was not a man who mixed things up, nor was he from amongst those people who commanded something, then prohibited it.’ So I said to him: `O father, did you not used to command me with it?’ He said: ‘Yes, O son of mine, and today I prohibit you from it.’ I said: ‘And why is that?’ So he said, ‘O my son, verily these retarded ones are from the people of Kalâm, from amongst those who you will see that they used to be upon one word and one religion, until Satan came between them. So now you find amongst them enmity and differing, so be upon clarity’”

[Source: Muwaffaq Ahmad al-Makki, Manaqib Abi Hanifah p. 183]


Imam Abu Hanifah said to Abu Yusuf:


“Beware of speaking to the common folk (al-’âmmah) about the foundations of the religion by way of Kalâm, since they are a people which blindly follow you, so they will become pre-occupied with that.”
[Source: Muwaffaq Ahmad al-Makki, Manaqib Abi Hanifah p. 373]


Abu Hanifah said:


“I use to count Kalâm the most preferred science. And I used to say: This al-Kalâm concerns the foundation of the religion. I then returned myself after what passed of my age and pondered. and said: [in myself]: Verily, the preceders from the Companions of the Prophet, peace and the blessing be upon him, and the Followers and those who followed them were not passed by anything what we perceive [today]. And they were better able and acquainted and knowledgeable about the realities of things; furthermore, they did not rise against disputants and discussers, nor did they partake in it but rather held off from that (i.e. Kalâm). They prohibited that strongly.. - until he says - ..after this what we’ve described manifested to us concerning their conditions, we abandoned dispute and debate and plunging into Kalâm; and we returned to that where the Salaf were upon.”

[Source: al-Kardari, Manaqib Abi Hanifah p.137-138]


Imam al-Shafi’i’s famous statement:


““My judgment with respect to the partisans of Kalâm is that they be smitten with fresh leafless palm branches, that they be paraded among the communities and tribes, and that it be proclaimed: “This is the punishment of him who has deserted the Book and the Sunna, and taken up Kalâm!”

[Source: al-Bayhaqi, Manâqib al-Shafi’i 1:462 and many others]


Imam al-Shafi’i said also:


“My judgement concerning them is the judgement of ‘Umar upon Subaygh!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:293 no.1140]


Imam Ahmad said during the Mihna:


“I am not a person of argumentation or Kalâm. I am only a person of narrations and reports.”

[Source: Hanbal b. Ishaq, al-Mihnah p. 54]


From Ahmad b. Khâlid [al-Khallâl] who said:


“I heard al-Shafi’i say: ‘I have not spoken to a man in Bid’ah, except one man; and he was Shi’ite.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:296 no.1145]


From al-Hasan al-Za’farani who said:


“I heard al-Shafi’i say: ‘I have not debated with anyone using Kalâm except once, and I seek forgiveness from Allah for that.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:296 no.1146; also al-Dhahabi, Siyar A’lam al-Nubala 10:30]


From Rabi’ it is narrated that al-Shafi’i said:


“I have not debated anyone for winning, except that the truth is with me.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:295 no.1143]


From al-Za’farani who cited al-Shafi’i:


“I have not debated anyone except as an advice (illa ‘alâ nasîha)”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:295 no.1144]


From al-Rabi’ b. Sulaymaan who said:


“al-Shafi’i said: ‘If I wanted to, I could have written a large book against every opponent. However, Kalâm is not from my nature, and I do not like that anything from it should be attributed to me.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:308-309 no.1168]


al-Muzani said:


“I heard al-Shafi’i say: ‘al-Kalâm curses the Ahl al-Kalâm’.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:299 no.1150]


Imam Ahmad stated:


“Whoever is given to Kalâm will not succeed, and whoever is given to Kalâm will not be free from becoming Jahmite.”

[Source: al-Dhahabi, Siyar A’lam al-Nubala 11:291 and others]


Imam Ahmad said:


“Do not sit with the people of Kalâm, even if they are defending the Sunnah.”

[Source: Ibn al-Jawziy, Manaqib al-Imam Ahmad p. 205]


And from Imam Ahmad who said


“If you see a man loving Kalâm, then warn against him!”

[Source: Ibn Battah, al-Ibanah 2:54 and others]


Imam Shu’bah b. al-Hajjâj said:


“Sufyan al-Thawri used to hate the Ahl al-Ahwâ’ and prohibit strongly sitting with them. And he used to say: ‘Upon you are the Athâr and beware of Kalâm concerning Allah’s Essence!’”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih, 4:171 no.950]


Abu Isma’il Abdallah al-Ansari al-Harawi said in a chapter-heading of his marvellous book:


“Dhikr of the harshness of al-Shafi’i upon the Ahl al-Kalâm and his rejection of it”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih, 4:264]


al-Muzani said:


“I used to study Kalam and so when al-Shafi’i came I went to discuss with him a matter having to do with Kalâm, and he said to me: ‘Do you know where you are?’ I replied: ‘Yes, I am here in the mosque of Fustat.’ Then he said to me: ‘You are at Târân!’

Abu’l-Qasim al-Anmâti, the student of al-Muzani, said in explication:


‘Târân is: a place in the sea of Qulzum where no ship is ever safe.’


He said: ‘He then proceeded to as me a question pertaining to jurisprudence. I responded to it, whereupon he raised certain points that exposed the inadequacy of my answer. I then replied with another answer, to which he raised further objection and so again expressed dissatisfaction with my answer. Whenever I tried to answer him, he would expose the weakness of my response. He then said to me: ‘If this is Fiqh which is based on the Qur’an and the Sunnah, and people introduce such things into it, how much more [dangerous is] Kalâm, wherein disputation is tantamount to Kufr?!.’ At this I abandoned Kalâm and devoted myself to the study of Fiqh.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:280 no.1125; refer also to Ibn al-Jawziy in: Baz al-Ashhâb and the Kitab Akhbar al-Sifat]


al-Muzani said:


“I asked al-Shafi’i on an issue concerning al-Kalâm. He responded with: Ask me about something where if I’m mistaken in it you say ‘You’re wrong’. Do not ask me about a thing where if I’m mistaken in you’ll say ‘You’ve disbelieved!’”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:286 no.1131]


Muhammad b. Abdallah b. Abd al-Hakam said:


“al-Shafi’i said to me: O Muhammad! If a man asks you a thing concerning al-Kalâm, then do not answer him. If he asks you about bloodmoney, one say: A dirham or less than a dirham. He says to you: You’re wrong. And if he asks you a thing about Kalâm and you slip he says to you: You have disbelieved!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:286 no.1132]


al-Muzani said:


“I heard al-Shafi’i say to Rabi’ [b. Sulayman]: O Rabi’! Accept from me three matters: Do not indulge [in speech] concerning the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, peace and the blessing upon him, for your opponent on the Day of Resurrection will be the Prophet, the peace upon him; nor occupy yourself with al-Kalâm, for I have encountered from the Ahl al-Kalâm al-Ta’tîl (i.e. pure stripping Allah of His Attributes)!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:288 no.1134]


Muhammad b. Dawud said:


“Nothing has been preserved in al-Shafi’i’s age at all that he spoke in anything with respect to Ahwâ’ nor has [anything] been ascribed to him or known from him, with the fact of his hatred to the Ahl al-Kalâm wa’l-Bida’.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam 4:282 no.1126]


Ahmad b. Hanbal stated about him:


“The best habit (in another version: device) which was in him, is that he had no desire for Kalâm; Fiqh was his only concern.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:282 no.1127]


Isma’il b. Yahya said:


“al-Shafi’i’s Madhhab was antipathy (al-karâhiyyah) of indulgence into al-Kalâm.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:290 no.1135]


From al-Hasan al-Za’farani who said:


“al-Shafi’i use to hate Kalâm and prohibit it.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:302 no.1156]


al-Za’farani said about al-Shafi’i that he forbade Kalâm in his assembly and say:


“We are not people of Kalâm!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:309 no.1169]


From al-Muzani who said:


“al-Shafi’i use to forbid indulgence into Kalâm.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:303 no.1158]


Muhammad b. ‘Aqil b. al-Azhar said:


“A man came to al-Muzani asking him something about al-Kalâm, so he replied: ‘I hate that. Rather, I forbid him like al-Shafi’i forbade it. For I have heard al-Shafi’i say: ‘Mâlik was asked about Kalâm [concerning] al-Tawhid, so Malik said: Impossible to imagine the Prophet, peace and the blessings upon him, to have learned his Ummah the cleansing of the back but not to have taught them al-Tawhid! And Tawhid is what the Prophet, peace be upon him, said: I have been ordered to fight the people untill they say: There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah. So whatever is protected by blood and possession that is the reality of al-Tawhid!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:283 no.1128]


Imam al-Shafi’i said:


“None has taken upon himself al-Kalâm and succeeded!”
[Source: Damm al-Kalâm 4:285 no.1130]


From Imam al-Shafi’i is also narrated:


“People did not become ignorant nor differed except after their abandonment of the Arabic language and their inclination to the language of Aristoteles!”

[Source: al-Dhahabi, Siyar A’lam al-Nubala 10:74 and al-Suyuti in Sawn al-Mantiq p.15]


The Qadi Abu Yusuf said:


“Whoever seeks the religion through Kalâm becomes a Zindiq! And whoever seeks the strange narrations becomes a liar! And whoever seeks money [through alchemy] becomes bankrupt!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalam wa-Ahlih 4:210 no.1009; narrated by many more incl. Waki’ in Akhbâr al-Qudat, Ibn ‘Adi in al-Kâmil, Abu’l-Fadl al-Muqri in his epitome Ahâdith fi Damm al-Kalam etcetera]


The Qadi Abu Yusuf said also:


“Knowledge (al-’ilm) of disputes and Kalâm is ignorance (jahl); and ignorance (al-jahl) of disputes and Kalâm is knowlegde (’ilm).”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:211 no.1010; also narrated by several Imams]


And from the Qadi Abu Yusuf is also related:


“..and none succeeds who permits something of Kalâm”

[Source: al-Dhahabi, Siyar A’lam al-Nubala 8:838]


From Nuh al-Jami’ who said:


“I said to Abu Hanifah: What do you say regarding such things people innovated from the speech (min al-kalâm) about accidents (al-a’râd) and bodies (al-ajsâm)? He replied: Doctrines of the philosophers! Upon you is to follow the trace and path of the Salaf. Be on your guard against every novelty, for it is an innovation!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahilih 4:213-214 no.1015]


Imam Abu Hanifah said:


“Curse be upon ‘Amr b. ‘Ubayd! Verily, he opened up for the people a path to Kalâm in that which does not benefit them in terms of speech!”

Muhammad b. al-Hasan al-Shaybani, the student of the Imam and the narrator of this report, said thereafter:


“And Abu Hanifah used to stress us upon al-Fiqh and prohibit us from al-Kalâm.”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:221-222 no.1029]


Abdallah b. Dawud said:


“I asked [Sufyan] al-Thawri about al-Kalâm, replied with: Leave it, its worthless!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:224 no.1032]


Abd al-Rahman b. Mahdi said:


“Whosoever seeks Arabic, in the end he becomes a well mannered; and whosoever seeks poetry, in the end he becomes a poet who satirize and eulogize with vanity; and whosoever seeks al-Kalâm, in the end his state is al-Zandaqah!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:227 no.1039]


Abdallah b. Dawud al-Khuraybi (d.213, an Imam from Kufah) said:


“The religion is not through Kalâm, but rather the religion is through the narrations.”

[Source: al-Dhahabi, Siyar A’lam al-Nubala 9:349]


‘Uthman b. Sa’id al-Darimi said:


“I went one day relating to Yahya b. Yahya [al-Nisaburi] part of Kalâm of the Jahmiyyah, to derive from him a refutation (naqd) of them. And in his assembly that day were al-Husayn b. ‘Isa al-Bistâmi, Ahmad b. al-Harîsh al-Qâdi, Muhammad b. Râfi’ and Abu Qudamah al-Sarakhsi as far as I remember and others from the Mashâyikh. Thereupon he became angry and said: Be silent! And the Mashâyikh who were in his assembly rejected greatly from me that I would relate their words and rejection!”

[Source: Abdallah al-Ansari, Damm al-Kalâm wa-Ahlih 4:253 no.1088]


Ibrahim al-Khawwâs, the pious student of the Salaf who died in 291 AH, said:


“There was no Zandaqah, nor Kufr, nor Bid’ah, nor audicity in the religion, except by way of Kalâm, disputation and hypocrisy..”

[Source: Abu’l-Fath al-Maqdisi, al-Hujjah fi Tarak al-Mahajjah 1:233]

al-ghazalli
21-02-08, 05:30 PM
Jazkallah Khair for the post, its a great read, but perhaps we should note the Kalam the noble Imams speak of is the Kalam of innovators.

The opinion of the Maliki madhab as discussed by our great classical Scholar and is quoted by Imam Muhammad Abu Zahra (Rahimullah), he states;

As Imam Muhammad Abu Zahra said in his book on Abu Hanifa (p.133): "Whenever you hear Abu Yusuf or Muhammad [ibn al- Hasan] or al-Shafi`i or Ibn Hanbal and others [among the early Imams] revile the science of kalam and those who take knowledge by following the methods of the mutakallimun, know that they only meant by their criticism the Mu`tazila and the methodology of the Mu`tazila." In fact, beginning with Sayyiduna `Ali and through the time of the four Imams, Ahl al-Sunna did involve themselves in kalam to the extent that they refuted the innovators, just as we now wade through those time-consuming proofs against illiterate promoters of Salafitic kalam to stem somewhat the tide of moneyed misguidance now flooding the Muslim world.

Also Imam Bayhaqi (Rahimullah) shows numerous statements of Imam Ahmad entering upon Kalam in his al-Asma wa al-Sifat.


But nonetheless a great read and advise for us layman to stay far away from Kalam.


Jazkallah Khair.

Skilly
21-02-08, 05:47 PM
Jazkallah Khair for the post, its a great read, but perhaps we should note the Kalam the noble Imams speak of is the Kalam of innovators.

The opinion of the Maliki madhab as discussed by our great classical Scholar and is quoted by Imam Muhammad Abu Zahra (Rahimullah), he states;


Also Imam Bayhaqi (Rahimullah) shows numerous statements of Imam Ahmad entering upon Kalam in his al-Asma wa al-Sifat.


But nonetheless a great read and advise for us layman to stay far away from Kalam.

Jazkallah Khair.

Salaam

I would look into that, but here is the point

Bro I know the reason for you contention (the above), however you can find statement (above) censuring Kalaam univocably, is actually proof against the Asharite and Maturdite, which attested in their own work they fall into.

al-ghazalli
21-02-08, 05:52 PM
Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmtullah

I have no contention Sidi, all I strive for is a moderate understanding of our fiqh & aqeedah texts. My Ulema do not dwell into kalam but perfer to follow the safest method which is tafwid. Bi la kayr wa la mana. But I can not deny what Imam Abu Zahra (Rahimullah) states since I have seen the quotes myself from the classical texts.

But again I agree with what you stated.


And Allah Knows Best.

Skilly
21-02-08, 06:00 PM
I have no contention Sidi, all I strive for is a moderate understanding of our fiqh & aqeedah texts. My Ulema do not dwell into kalam but perfer to follow the safest method which is tafwid. Bi la kayr wa la mana. But I can not deny what Imam Abu Zahra (Rahimullah) states since I have seen the quotes myself from the classical texts.

But again I agree with what you stated.


And Allah Knows Best.

Their is no tafwid of Manaa. Tafwid of Kayfa we have no problem with.

One should note in Fiqh their is some flexibilty however this is not the case of aqeedah. Allah(swt) and his messenger did not leave us with two aqeedah. It is absurd.

However what I have problem with the opposition is the amount of dishonesty that seems to permeate.

The moderation is with the truth. Not falsehood. Two entertain both, truth and falsehood (in aqeedah) being legitimate is going to the extreme and based on ignorance.

al-ghazalli
21-02-08, 06:05 PM
Their is no tafwid of Manaa. Tafwid of Kayfa we have no problem with.

Well I would expect that response from you, but we have been taught that the path of the Khalif & Salaf is the Tafwid of Mana you may not agree and that is fine with me. Allah is the Best of All Guides.


However what I have problem with the opposition is the amount of dishonesty that seems to permeate.

Well many can say the same about your camp as well about the amount of tahreef which takes place when a certain group translates texts which goes against their fiqhi or aqeedah opinions.

But we have been taught to stay away from such disputes and concentrate on our own low selves before we even attempt to look at others.


And with Allah is all Success.

Skilly
21-02-08, 06:16 PM
Well I would expect that response from you, but we have been taught that the path of the Khalif & Salaf is the Tafwid of Mana you may not agree and that is fine with me. Allah is the Best of All Guides.And I knew you going to say that, i.e. regarding Tafwid of Mana, but if you wan't to contest the point than feel free to pop by IA forum. Making sure you explain what you exactly mean by the statement unless your understanding aloof ours.






But we have been taught to stay away from such disputes and concentrate on our own low selves before we even attempt to look at others.


And with Allah is all Success.

actually bring me a statement where we are dishonest at the least in aqeedah issue.
Feel free to pop by IA forum and make a thread.

The dishonesty is well listed in many of the refutation that can be found in the forum.
I don't think it would be conductive to go and least it here, and not to fuel the argument any further I would refrain from it, as i don't wan't the thread to be detracted from it's topic.

al-ghazalli
21-02-08, 06:21 PM
I agree the topic which you posted is alhamdiallah very beneficial but no Sidi the IA forms is nothing short of slander which takes place on there..

www.aslein.net has a whole list of contentions if you want to pop in their you can even talk to the Shaykh Sa`id Foudah.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic a little...

Skilly
21-02-08, 06:25 PM
I agree the topic which you posted is alhamdiallah very beneficial but no Sidi the IA forms is nothing short of slander which takes place on there..

www.aslein.net (http://www.aslein.net) has a whole list of contentions if you want to pop in their you can even talk to the Shaykh Sa`id Foudah.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic a little...

Salaam

Thank's for the offer but I am in a clear disadvantage. Arabic is not on my tongue yet.

Anyway slander? well that is my view of Kalaam, and asharism/ maturdism is not free from it.

If you don't like that forum for some reason, you can try http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/index.php

chitownmuslim
21-02-08, 08:13 PM
Their is no tafwid of Manaa. Tafwid of Kayfa we have no problem with.

Imam Bayhaqi relates with a Sahih isnad in his classical work, "Al-Asma'a wal Sifat", pg. 454, That Imam Khattabi said: "The Mutashabah is to be believed and accepted, and its meaning or reality is left to the knowledge of Allah (swt); and that is what is meant by the verse 'but none knows its interpretation except Allah' - (Al-Imran, 7), Those who are knowledgable only say 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord'... and this was the madhab of the salaf and a great number of the Companions (raa)."

Imam Shahrastani relates in his book "Al-Milal wal Nihal", pg.104- 105, the madhab of the Salaf being tafweed al-ma'ana, saying: "And we say as the knowledgable say, 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord', accepting his words, while leaving their reality and meaning to Allah (Swt), as we are not obliged to have knowledge of their reality."

Hafidh Ibn Hajar says in "Hadiy As-Sari", in his tafseer of istiwa'a: "It is of the Mutashabah verses, whose meanings are left to Allah (swt)."

It is related with a Sahih isnad from Imam Al-Qasim bin Salam (one of the scholars of the Salaf), that he responded to a question about the method of understanding the verses and hadiths of sifat: "We have not seen anyone (of the companions/tabi'een) who interpreted them, therefore we do not interpret them, we believe in them as they have come to us, without delving into their meaning."

Imam Ibn Rajab Al-Hanbali says in "Fadl Ilm As-Salaf ala Al-Khalaf", pg. 30: "The correct path was that which the Salaf was upon; who accepted the verses and hadiths of sifat, as they came without knowing its meaning, especially Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal."

Hafidh Dhahabi mentions his aqeedah in regards to sifat, in his great work "Siyar A'alam An-Nubala'a", 8/105: "We believe in regards to the Mutashabihat: to accept them, and leave their meaning (nuffowidu ma'anahu) to the one who said them; the trustworthy one, who is protected from error" (meaning the Prophet-pbuh)

Also in the same book, Imam Dhahabi comments on the istiwa'a mentioned in the Quran, and shows the correct madhab in regards to them, "Siyar" 14/373: "He who accepts the 'istiwa'a' because of its mention in Quran and hadith, believes in it with leaving its meaning to Allah (swt), is the true follower of Islam."

Imam Ahmad mentions in his book "Al-Wara'a", pg. 199, that anyone who applies human action or behavior to Allah (swt) has committed disbelief, and that the verses/hadith which mention sifat are accepted without us knowing their meaning.

Imam Suyuti says in "Al-Itqan fi Uloom Al-Quran", 2/10: "The majority of Ahlus Sunnah, especially the Salaf and Ahlul Hadith, follow the method of 'tafweed al-ma'ana', while deeming Allah (swt) far above and exalted of being subject to the realities which we understand"


One should note in Fiqh their is some flexibilty however this is not the case of aqeedah. Allah(swt) and his messenger did not leave us with two aqeedah. It is absurd.

Yes that is correct, Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'a are upon one aqeedah, only people with little or no knowledge misunderstand the role of schools of thought within Islam, as ALL of the great and righteous scholars have accepted these schools of thought and belonged to them, except a handful .. Asha'aris, Maturidis, and Atharis are all upon one aqeedah, and differ on minor points.. they all agree that the basis of Islamic aqeedah is tawheed and tanzeeh; to deem Allah (swt) being above any similarities with his creation or of being limited in any way or effected by his creation.. only the mujassimah have went against this unanimous agreement of all Muslims..

MustBePatient
22-02-08, 04:03 PM
This is probably why the most clearest arguments in quran are denied... no thinking as a result of loving world...

Skilly
22-02-08, 11:40 PM
Assalamu alaikum wr wb

When Ashari’s or Maturidis quote in support of Tafwid of Manaa or any matter regarding the attributes, one would find usually distortion and deception. This is to often the case. Sometime those who they quote are actually scholar’s themselves that are in clear contestion with the thing’s they(asharis) support. i.e. They(scholars) affirm/ believe in the very thing the ashari’s and Maturidis disbelieve in. One only has to check the theology of Asharite, and check the belief of some of the words of the scholars they quote.

So it is a bit of contradiction or I must say stupidity to try to quote any scholar’s that are in opposition to them (pseudo-asharite and Maturidites. Chitowtown maybe due to his ignorance quote words of scholar/s that he should not be quoting in the first place.



1. Imam Bayhaqi relates with a Sahih isnad in his classical work, "Al-Asma'a wal Sifat", pg. 454, That Imam Khattabi said: "The Mutashabah is to be believed and accepted, and its meaning or reality is left to the knowledge of Allah (swt); and that is what is meant by the verse 'but none knows its interpretation except Allah' - (Al-Imran, 7), Those who are knowledgable only say 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord'... and this was the madhab of the salaf and a great number of the Companions (raa)." What one quote is actually is in opposition to the ashari doctrine.
The Mutashabah is to be believed and accepted:( refereeing to the attribute i.e. sifaat) to be believed and be accepted. Ashari’s don’t believe in Allah attributes with few exception.
and its meaning or reality is left to the knowledge of Allah (swt):The meaning referring to it’s (tafsir) and reality (kayf) is to be left with Allah(swt).

As you can see he is saying to believe in the attribute and refer the interpretation/ tafsir, giving meaning other than the apparent, and it’s Kayf to Allah(swt).
Which we do.

Yout guys, don’t. What you either do is, 1) negate apparent/ meaning (dahir), it’s tafsir and kayf to Allah(swt) or 2) negate the apparent (dahir), it is not intended, and opt for tawil (giving other meaning other than intended).
This is a schism within the asharism itself.

We in the other hand affirm and believe in the Mutashabah i,e, the sifaat and don’t give meanings to it other than the dahir nor go into the kayf.
We pass them as they come.



Hafidh Ibn Hajar says in "Hadiy As-Sari", in his tafseer of istiwa'a: "It is of the Mutashabah verses, whose meanings are left to Allah (swt)." One should always’s quote fully, so there is no ambiguity left and no chance of people misinterpreting it.

I can get plenty of quote’s from the salaf, tabien and tabieen tabieen to the scholars of today who affirm Istiwa and in fact believe Allah(swt) is above his the seven heaven above his throne.

Let me give you one of the quote of these scholar which should demonstrate the point sufficiently:

Imam ibn Khuzaimah said, “Whoever does not acknowledge that Allah is above His 'Arsh, above His seven heavens, and that He is separated from His creatures, is a Kafir, (unbeliever). Such person must be ordered to repent and disavow his belief, or else he must be beheaded and thrown on a garbage dump so that neither Ahlul-Qiblah (the Muslims) nor Ahludth-dthimmah (non-Muslims living in Muslim lands) be annoyed by the foul odor of his carcass.”

Their are plenty of similar statement from scholars of Ahul Sunnah in the past affirming istiwa, Allah(swt) is above his throne.

2. Imam Shahrastani relates in his book "Al-Milal wal Nihal", pg.104- 105, the madhab of the Salaf being tafweed al-ma'ana, saying: "And we say as the knowledgable say, 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord', accepting his words, while leaving their reality and meaning to Allah (Swt), as we are not obliged to have knowledge of their reality."

Imam Suyuti says in "Al-Itqan fi Uloom Al-Quran", 2/10: "The majority of Ahlus Sunnah, especially the Salaf and Ahlul Hadith, follow the method of 'tafweed al-ma'ana', while deeming Allah (swt) far above and exalted of being subject to the realities which we understand"

It is related with a Sahih isnad from Imam Al-Qasim bin Salam (one of the scholars of the Salaf), that he responded to a question about the method of understanding the verses and hadiths of sifat: "We have not seen anyone (of the companions/tabi'een) who interpreted them, therefore we do not interpret them, we believe in them as they have come to us, without delving into their meaning."

3. Imam Ibn Rajab Al-Hanbali says in "Fadl Ilm As-Salaf ala Al-Khalaf", pg. 30: "The correct path was that which the Salaf was upon; who accepted the verses and hadiths of sifat, as they came without knowing its meaning, especially Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal."

5. Imam Ahmad mentions in his book "Al-Wara'a", pg. 199, that anyone who applies human action or behavior to Allah (swt) has committed disbelief, and that the verses/hadith which mention sifat are accepted without us knowing their meaning.Here is an excerpt, from a post, sufficient to crush you belief.

Exerpt:

What I said with respect to Ibn Qudama’s negation of ‘meaning’ is also applicable to Imam Ahmad, that by ‘meaning’ he does not refer to the dhahir of the wording, rather he refers to the kayf.

Again, as is the case with Ibn Qudama, the narrations from Imam Ahmad where he affirms the dhahir of the wording are numerous.

In fact, anyone who has read about the mihna (trial) of Imam Ahmad knows that he insisted on saying, not only that the Quran is the Speech of Allah, but also that it is not created. Whereas a mufawwidh would not go beyond saying: Kalam Allah, while denying the dhahir, and not delving into whether or not it is created.

Moreover, ‘Abdullah narrates in his Sunnah, that those who simply said, ‘The Quran is Kalam Allah’, without saying, ‘it is not created’, Imam Ahmad regarded them to be Jahmis!

Abu Dawud also narrated that Imam Ahmad was asked: Does any one have excuse to say that ‘[the Quran is] the Speech of Allah’, and then remain silent? Imam Ahmad said: Why would he remain silent? If it wasn’t for what the people have fallen into (i.e. the belief of the creation of the Quran), he may have remained silent. But since they (the Jahmis) have already spoken (that it is created), why would they (Ahl al-Sunnah) not speak?!

This is an important statement because Imam Ahmad states that if it wasn’t for the fact that the Jahmiyya denied the dhahir, that the Quran is literally the Speech of Allah, one may have an excuse for simply stopping at: ‘Kalam Allah’, without adding ‘not created’. But when the Jahmis denied the dhahir, Imam Ahmad obliged the Sunnis to use the terms and phrase not mentioned in the Quran to emphasise the literal meaning of the texts, that the Quran is literally the word of Allah, and not His creation.

How can then, he be a mufawwidfh?

How about Imam Ahmad affirming that Allah literally Speaks with a Sound and numerous narrations, such as the one I quoted previously: ‘Abd Allah says in his book al-Sunnah: I asked my father about a people who say: When Allah spoke to Musa, He did not speak with a sound. My father [Ahmad] replied: In fact, your Lord spoke with a sound, for we narrate these Ahadeeth as they have reached us.

Al-Khallal narrates in his Sunnah, that Imam Ahmad was asked:
Allah Ta’ala is above (fawq) the seventh heaven, upon His Throne, separate from His creation, while His power and knowledge are everywhere? He replied: Yes. He is upon the Throne, and nothing escapes His knowledge.

Al-Khallal also reports that Imam Ahmad was asked about someone who says: Allah is not above His Throne, to which he replied: Their entire statement revolves around Kufr.

He then quotes Imam Ahmad from his Sunnah: He is upon His Throne, above the seventh heaven.

In these narrations, it is obvious to anyone that Imam Ahmad articulated the dhahir of the texts in his own words, and that is only possible, if Imam Ahmad affirms the literal/dhahir of the texts.

The narrations are too many to quote, while the claim is too weak to refute, but I guess the point is clear to all.

The question then may arise that why did Imam Ahmad negate the ma’na/meaning?

A possible explanation could be that Imam Ahmad must have heard of Jahmis saying: Allah Rose over the throne; meaning: took control.

Naturally, Imam Ahmad’s response would be: ‘Allah Rose over the throne, without any meaning or tafsir’, intending by that, any meaning or tafsir that negates its dhahir.

Whatever the case, what is crystal clear from Imam Ahmad’s narrations is that he definitely affirmed the dhahir, and that no one can deny.

Also, I remind you of the quote from al-Dhahabi’s al-‘Uluw, that to negate the dhahir of the text (tafwidh, the Ash’ari way), was a relatively new phenomenon, invented by the latter mutakallimun.

See post for further discussiont: http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=4379&postcount=16


4. Hafidh Dhahabi mentions his aqeedah in regards to sifat, in his great work "Siyar A'alam An-Nubala'a", 8/105: "We believe in regards to the Mutashabihat: to accept them, and leave their meaning (nuffowidu ma'anahu) to the one who said them; the trustworthy one, who is protected from error" (meaning the Prophet-pbuh)

Also in the same book, Imam Dhahabi comments on the istiwa'a mentioned in the Quran, and shows the correct madhab in regards to them, "Siyar" 14/373: "He who accepts the 'istiwa'a' because of its mention in Quran and hadith, believes in it with leaving its meaning to Allah (swt), is the true follower of Islam." Let me elaborate for you what Imam Dhahabi said on Allah(Swt) being Above his throne:


I (adh-Dhahabee) say, "Yes, this is what the deniers of the ‘uluww (highness) of the Lord, Mighty and Majestic, have depended upon. And they turned away from the requirement of the Book, the Sunnah, the sayings of the Salaf and the innate dispositions of the whole of creation. What they claim to be necessitated (from affirming Allaah’s highness) is only applicable to created bodies. Yet there is nothing like Allaah and the necessities arising from the clear and evident texts (of the Book and the Sunnah) are also true. However, we do not make use of any explanation except one that comes through a narration. In addition to this we say, ‘We do not accept that the Creator’s being upon His Throne and above the heavens, necessitates that He is confined and in spatial direction, since whatever is below the Throne is said to be confined and in spatial direction. However, what is above the Throne is not like that. And Allaah is above the Throne as the very first generation are unanimously agreed upon and as the imaams after them have quoted from them. They said this in refutation of the Jahmiyyah, those who said that He is in every place seeking as a proof His saying, ‘And He is with you…’. So these two sayings were the very two sayings which were present in the time of the Taabi’een and their successors who came after them. And they are the two sayings that can be understood in this statement (i.e. of the philosophers). As for the third saying which came around after this which is that’ Allaah the Most High is not in any place, nor is His Holy Essence (Dhaat) confined, nor is He separate and distinct from His creation, nor is he in any spatial direction, nor is outside of any spatial directions, and nor this and nor that…’ then this is something that cannot be comprehended nor understood , along with the fact that within it is opposition to the verses (of the Book) and the narrations (from the Salaf). Therefore flee with your religion and beware of the opinions of the philosophers. Believe in Allaah and what has come from Him upon the desired intent of Allaah, then submit your affair to Him and there is no power nor movement except by Allaah."
The book is completed and all praise is to Allaah alone…" Mukhtasir al-Uloow


In Conclusion let me quote al Safarini in his sharh in case people are confused by the half backed work of an Pseudo-Asharite

He says (1/98), while commenting on his saying, ‘we accept the narrations as they have been narrated’: Allah is described as He described Himself, and as His Messenger –SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – described Him, and how the early companions described Him, without transgressing the Quran and the Hadeeth… The Madhab of the Salaf is not to delve into such (Attributes), to remain silent, and to render the meaning unto Allah Ta’ala. Ibn ‘Abbas said (with respect to verses pertaining to Attributes): ‘This is from the hidden which cannot be explained (tafsir).’ So it is obligatory upon a person to believe in the dhahir, and render the meaning unto Allah’



Let me remind people that the hallmark of Asharism is not Taafwid and Tawil it is Kalaam. Rather Tafwid and Tawil is resultant of it.

tangents
24-02-08, 03:59 AM
I'm guessing they also disapprove of Islamic Philosophy and Sufism as religious theology as well?

I just think that not everyone is able to understand the complexities of some of these ideologies, and by going deep into it, they actually have a decrease in Imaan rather than an Increase.

If you are strong in faith, I think it's worth looking into just to see what Kalam is about.

Nevertheless it still is considered one of the religious sciences of Islam, isn't it?

GothiKa
24-02-08, 10:18 AM
The first important Mutakalliműn - some might call them the founders of Arabic Kalâm - are probably Wasil b. ‘Ata and ‘Amr b. ‘Ubayr, the founding fathers of Mu’tazilah. al-Ja’d b. Dirham, Ma’bad al-Juhani and others may have utilized also Greek ’speech’ in discovering beings and formulating matters

This is not true. Prior to the Mutazilites, there were Muslims who engaged in kalam. They mostly focused on the anthropomorphic verses in the Quran.