Poor people having a lot of kids

[miss-islamic]

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?

[Noor_Usman]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:

[$HugoBoss$]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:

I so agree 100% :up:

[THE PATH 2]

when i got married i had no money car home kids:D

rented a house,got married and lived without a car for 10 years



now i have a housing association house..no mortgage:up:

7 seater mpv

and 4 kids

and i worked some tough jobs too

allah provides for those who go forth with faith
each child brings his own rizk and barkah

[Loobna]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:

agree :up:

What about people who are wealthy and then say they only want one or two kids so that they can provide them with the best and give them everything they want - is this considered un-islamic?

[scribble]

Actually it isn't irresponsible at all, they need to have many children so the healthier ones can provide the family (once grown up) with money, food, it can also be a pathway to a better future. Poor people can't afford medical help, so the children that are alive live on to helping the others, that are sick, old etc. The weaker ones can't exactly do much, so the more younger healthier children there are to hold a roof above the family's head, the better. Thus, supplying them with more hands to work, more money being bought in (more mouths to feed, but remember weaker ones die), and hopefully a faster route into fulfilling their goal.

I watched this documetary some time ago, and they're determined to get to better place than they are now, imagine, if each poor family had just one child, who then went onto having another single child. How slowly would things evolve for them?

It's not exactly helping the world, with there already being too many people, but that's just how it's going to be.

[miss-islamic]

I’m talking about extremely poor…they are the ones of all people have like 12 kids, why not 10? 8? 6? 4? Those children have rights on you. How can a person keep having kids (and others think nothing is wrong with it) when they can’t even provide for themselves or the ones that they already have? It’s intellectually stupid and morally wrong. Anyway,in general I think if we really love kids, we would stop bring a alot of more kids in the world and focus on the millions that already exist but are orphaned, poor, etc. Sad world.

[miss-islamic]

Actually it isn't irresponsible at all, they need to have many children so the healthier ones can provide the family (once grown up) with money, food, it can also be a pathway to a better future. Poor people can't afford medical help, so the children that are alive live on to helping the others, that are sick, old etc. The weaker ones can't exactly do much, so the more younger healthier children there are to hold a roof above the family's head, the better. Thus, supplying them with more hands to work, more money being bought in (more mouths to feed, but remember weaker ones die), and hopefully a faster route into fulfilling their goal.

I watched this documetary some time ago, and they're determined to get to better place than they are now, imagine, if each poor family had just one child, who then went onto having another single child. How slowly would things evolve for them?

It's not exactly helping the world, with there already being too many people, but that's just how it's going to be.

Yeah, I know the reason why they have them…it’s selfish. Irresponsibility and selfishness usually correlate. And I’m not asking for them to have 1 kid.

[Tranquillity]

Human beings have an innate instinct to reproduce. to deny an adult of that is to deny them of a fundamental human right.
If children are not provided for despite their parents best efforts then it is the fault of the state.

[Tranquillity]

Yeah, I know the reason why they have them…it’s selfish. Irresponsibility and selfishness usually correlate. And I’m not asking for them to have 1 kid.

You have the right to your own opinion. But when your opinion goes against the teachings of Islam it is better to keep it to yourself rather than voice it and slander your Muslim brothers and sisters.

[LastFriday]

Maybe those kids will grow up and become a benefit for the parents and in-turn pull them out of poverty....

[scribble]

Yeah, I know the reason why they have them…it’s selfish. Irresponsibility and selfishness usually correlate. And I’m not asking for them to have 1 kid.

It's an example.

Didn't mean to offend anyone.

It's not selfish, but I won't try an explain further since you hold your view on this subject highly.

[Neurostyler]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:


But many die. How do you square this with what you say?

[GuCcI]

I’m talking about extremely poor…they are the ones of all people have like 12 kids, why not 10? 8? 6? 4? Those children have rights on you. How can a person keep having kids (and others think nothing is wrong with it) when they can’t even provide for themselves or the ones that they already have? It’s intellectually stupid and morally wrong. Anyway,in general I think if we really love kids, we would stop bring a alot of more kids in the world and focus on the millions that already exist but are orphaned, poor, etc. Sad world.

uhh well okay well in the "west" ppl sure live in poverty but i wouldnt say EXTREMELY poor because theres social welfare, child care benefits, etc. and even still most families dont have 12 kids... or even 6.

families that do have a lot of kids are families in the THIRD WORLD countries. usually african countries, the families are quite large. wats my point death rate is high. infant mortality rates are high. thats why families have a lot of babies because so many of them die at birth and many others die in childhood from many times of diseases. to make up for that loss, women bear a lot of children so the kids can at least help the parents with watever farming or other agriculture work they do.

[Hafsah]

you don't have a choice with how many kids you get, if Allaah wills you to have 20..you will have them no matter what contraceptions etc etc you try, and as mentioned in posts above,Allaah will provide

my parents have 6 children...and were by no means rich....but have brought us all up well, yes there were times when there were hardships and sacrifices to be made,but neither of my parents wish they had less children

[scribble]

I missed that point in this thread, it's an excellent one, I must say.

Subhanallah.

[Noor_Usman]

Ok to answer your post Neurostyler and also the point the miss-islamic brought up again.

If they weren't meant to have 10+ kids then Allah wouldn't phsyically let it happen :up:
We are certainly not the ones to say whether they are allowed to have them or not :rubeyes:

And with regards to your question - the same thing applies (but from what I recall you aren't muslim?) Allah choses who dies and when they die. As long as you are doing your best, if any member of your family gets sick and/or dies it is because they are meant to. And in Islam death is not the end - rather it is the begining. As long as they have done their best to live piously they have nothing to be afraid of by death :)
The younger a child dies the more pain of this world they are spaired from. Obviously you would not deliberately go and kill your own child :rubeyes: but any decent muslim should keep this is mind if their children 'get taken from them'.

[ummbilal]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:


I second my sister above.

[muslimma]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:

agreed :up:

...allah gives what he wants to who he wants.....it has already been written..its not cos of their 'irresponsible' actions that they have these children its in their kismat and is decided by allah

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?

Sis please do not be offended but you cannot say stuff like this.

How many kids one wants is up to each individual.

The kuffar theory is '2.4' where you have a girl then boy- preferably in that order, yet there are many non Muslims who want loads of kids.

Chinese people are restricted to one but don't you think some want loads?

Allah provides. Recall this Ayah:

"And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin" (al-Isra 31)

This poor people have gracious hearts. If they want more kids, it is not up to you or me to criticise, i swear sis this thread made me feel sad :crying:

We can offer help to poor people but we should never be those who have conditions attached to them. It should be FeesabeelAllah.

:wswrwb:

[Chained_Water]

I’m talking about extremely poor…they are the ones of all people have like 12 kids, why not 10? 8? 6? 4? Those children have rights on you. How can a person keep having kids (and others think nothing is wrong with it) when they can’t even provide for themselves or the ones that they already have? It’s intellectually stupid and morally wrong. Anyway,in general I think if we really love kids, we would stop bring a alot of more kids in the world and focus on the millions that already exist but are orphaned, poor, etc. Sad world.
It is a sad world, but it's a fact of life that some will be teste with poverty and ill health, others in different ways. And you are right about needing to help the poor and orphans, Islam emphasizes this much as you know sis.

At the same time we oughtn't forget that Allah(swt) has already decreed how many children any person shall have and what their sustenance will be, it's not in human hands, we shouldn't make the mistake of thinking it is. It is already written and Allah(swt) warns the people in the Quran Surah 17 verse 31 take a look at it, that He(swt) will provide for your children, so do not kill them in fear of poverty, He provides for them and you.

So Allah(swt) tells us Himself that we shouldn't have this view that you are expressing.

Sustenance and health are from Allah :)

[miss-islamic]

They are not in fear of poverty, they are in poverty. They and their children are all going stave to death but they add more to the list. “Allah provides” does not mean you can do whatever you want. Their is a reason Allah (swt) has given us a brain and asked us to use it. People like to go on about how some (well-off) people not wanting to have children (or a lot of children) because it’s too expensive. (Poor) people having a lot of kids because they will bring money to the house is worse. If they believed in “Allah provides,” they wouldn’t have so much so they can use the kids to provide for them.

[Chained_Water]

They are not in fear of poverty, they are in poverty. They and their children are all going stave to death but they add more to the list. “Allah provides” does not mean you can do whatever you want. Their is a reason Allah (swt) has given us a brain and asked us to use it. People like to go on about how some (well-off) people not wanting to have children (or a lot of children) because it’s too expensive. (Poor) people having a lot of kids because they will bring money to the house is worse. If they believed in “Allah provides,” they wouldn’t have so much so they can use the kids to provide for them.
Sis you are misunderstanding the fear of poverty thing.. that is what is means, just because you are poor OR fear you will become poor [so it applies to both] and think you won't be able to cope doesn't mean you should kill your children in other words.. because Allah(swt) provides for them AND you.. you aren't self-sufficient providing for yourself that you think if you have another kid you won't be able to.. that means you aren't truly realising it's all from Allah whether you have a child or not.

Sis do you really think it is upto us which souls are going to come into this world?? :eek3: ..because it for sure isn't. That's an evident truth that makes this whole discussion redundant.

People having kids to bring money into the house is as bad as people not having them to reduce expensives. Both as bad attitudes as each other.

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams

sis, yet it's not up to you, me or anyone else to decide in another person's affairs.

:wswrwb:

[Ebony]

Oh yeah some poor people behave as if its your responsibility to feed their 12 kids! In all honesty yes kids are lovely and bring much happiness but people (read mother and father) should be more careful and take their responsibilities seriously as providers.

[sis_niqabi]

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?

ukhti first of all. have you ever thought that just maybe these poor people do not have access to birth control and therefore cannot limit the children they have? many people in third world countries live in rural area. those people barely have proper pharmacies and medical centers so i highly doubt getting birth control pills and condoms are on their list of things to get when they barely have things like antibiotics.
and even with birth control there's no guarantee that it will stop them from having kids. i know of this one sister who had 7 kids all while she was on the birth control. and she tried every birth control method,device and pill in the book.

2nd this is not an islamic attitude. the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told the muslims to have many children so that on the day of judgement the ummah will be great in numbers. now in that haidth there is no mentioning poor people should refrain from having kids.

3rd Allah will provide for one's child.
and even a family that has one kid that kid can go and strave.

[Neurostyler]

Ok to answer your post Neurostyler and also the point the miss-islamic brought up again.

If they weren't meant to have 10+ kids then Allah wouldn't phsyically let it happen :up:
We are certainly not the ones to say whether they are allowed to have them or not :rubeyes:

And with regards to your question - the same thing applies (but from what I recall you aren't muslim?) Allah choses who dies and when they die. As long as you are doing your best, if any member of your family gets sick and/or dies it is because they are meant to. And in Islam death is not the end - rather it is the begining. As long as they have done their best to live piously they have nothing to be afraid of by death :)
The younger a child dies the more pain of this world they are spaired from. Obviously you would not deliberately go and kill your own child :rubeyes: but any decent muslim should keep this is mind if their children 'get taken from them'.


So you throw the concept of taking precautions in life, out of the window do you?

[ummbilal]

contraception only works by the will of Allah, I know so many women who have used it and still got pregnant we cannot prevent what is Gods will, take as many precautions as you want.

[MG]

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?


aslaam alaikum

as a sister already posted:

"And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin" (al-Isra 31)

[Neurostyler]

contraception only works by the will of Allah, I know so many women who have used it and still got pregnant we cannot prevent what is Gods will, take as many precautions as you want.

:/ but there's an attempt made? or not at all.

I mean, if it happens- it happens. But to actively refuse to take precautions.. isn't that like taking a learner driver onto the motorway and saying if he dies it's up to God.

[MG]

:/ but there's an attempt made? or not at all.

I mean, if it happens- it happens. But to actively refuse to take precautions.. isn't that like taking a learner driver onto the motorway and saying if he dies it's up to God.


there are also couples who take no precautions whatsoever and have yet been waiting years to get pregnant and the doctors can find nothing wrong with either of them.


My cuz waited over a year, nearly 2 years just to have a child and then on the other hand my friend and her hubbie have been waiting nearly 16 years. Whichever way u look, its allah's will.

[Neurostyler]

there are also couples who take no precautions whatsoever and have yet been waiting years to get pregnant and the doctors can find nothing wrong with either of them.


My cuz waited over a year, nearly 2 years just to have a child and then on the other hand my friend and her hubbie have been waiting nearly 16 years. Whichever way u look, its allah's will.

Well, I can understand the thought.. 'if it's meant to be, it's meant to be'..

but taking no precautions? Ever, for anything?

[Kal-El]

I understand both points but Miss Islamics point is interesting. For example, those people in Africa who starve and have alot of children; they are often malnutrition and starving, what are they getting but a quick life? It is said that Allah will provide for you but what about the example I gave...

[MG]

Well, I can understand the thought.. 'if it's meant to be, it's meant to be'..

but taking no precautions? Ever, for anything?



i dont that goes for everyone, some people cant have children for health reasons , every circumstance is different

[Le Croyant]

I understand both points but Miss Islamics point is interesting. For example, those people in Africa who starve and have alot of children; they are often malnutrition and starving, what are they getting but a quick life? It is said that Allah will provide for you but what about the example I gave...


the example of children in Africa?

we will b asked abt that on the day of judgment... y didn't we look after them when we had the resources?

[Kal-El]

the example of children in Africa?

we will b asked abt that on the day of judgment... y didn't we look after them when we had the resources?

Sorry is this a general comment or an answer? Because I wanted to know how the "Allah will provide" is applied in certain situations such as the above

[S@Z]

Asalamalikum.

I say - with all due respect mind you :) - that the view posted is quite un-islamic :up:

Allah has stated many times that he will provide for those who have children.
Allah has also stated many times that you can't have a thing he does not will you to have (children/money/good health...anything!).

So true muslim's should always say Alhamdillah whether something happens that they see as a good or bad thing.

Children are always a blessing in Islam. Maybe they are struggling now but who knows inshallah what the future holds in store for them? :D :rolleyes:


ukhti first of all. have you ever thought that just maybe these poor people do not have access to birth control and therefore cannot limit the children they have? many people in third world countries live in rural area. those people barely have proper pharmacies and medical centers so i highly doubt getting birth control pills and condoms are on their list of things to get when they barely have things like antibiotics.
and even with birth control there's no guarantee that it will stop them from having kids. i know of this one sister who had 7 kids all while she was on the birth control. and she tried every birth control method,device and pill in the book.

2nd this is not an islamic attitude. the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told the muslims to have many children so that on the day of judgement the ummah will be great in numbers. now in that haidth there is no mentioning poor people should refrain from having kids.

3rd Allah will provide for one's child.
and even a family that has one kid that kid can go and strave.excellent replies by my sisters

[Le Croyant]

Sorry is this a general comment or an answer? Because I wanted to know how the "Allah will provide" is applied in certain situations such as the above

i was talking in general abt helping poor ppl out.

fate, that was written for them. They vl be judged by Allah (swt) accordingly.

[Al-Farooq]

When I became a single parent, I had to move back to England with hardly a penny to my name, I was sleeping on my friend's sofa and was unemployed. Please don't bother accusing me of irresponsibility, because you don't know the whole story.

Although I wish my daughter's first years in life were more comfortable and settled, alhamdulillah I don't regret a darn thing. It certainly didn't affect her development as she is very intelligent, mature and extremely confident.

I would rather be a good parent with no money, than a useless parent with lots of money.

Trust in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and worry about your parenting skills, not the size of your bank balance. :)

[Mullah_Din]

the example of children in Africa?

we will b asked abt that on the day of judgment... y didn't we look after them when we had the resources?

Absolutely right, bro!

Mentioned by Holy Prophet, Hadhrat Muhammad-ur Rasulullaah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), 'None of you will truly believe until you love for your brother what you love for yourself'. (Bukhaari)

We enjoy what Allah Taa'la has given us, but, we think very little about the less-fortunate. We are under Allah Taa'la's test by giving us so much to share among people; they are under Allah Taa'la's test for providing so little to observe patience.

[Neurostyler]

When I became a single parent, I had to move back to England with hardly a penny to my name, I was sleeping on my friend's sofa and was unemployed. Please don't bother accusing me of irresponsibility, because you don't know the whole story.

Although I wish my daughter's first years in life were more comfortable and settled, alhamdulillah I don't regret a darn thing. It certainly didn't affect her development as she is very intelligent, mature and extremely confident.

I would rather be a good parent with no money, than a useless parent with lots of money.

Trust in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and worry about your parenting skills, not the size of your bank balance. :)

Yes, but I'm guessing your next step isn't to run out to make 10 more babies whilst in your current financial situation.

[Al-Farooq]

Yes, but I'm guessing your next step isn't to run out to make 10 more babies whilst in your current financial situation.

Who said anything about my current financial situation? This was many years ago.

Alhamdulillah my current situation is very different.

[Joha]

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?

Well, putting religion to one side, the purely sociological explanation for high birth rates in developing countries is not that they're being irresponsible. They're actually being responsible - the one way to guarantee offspring in a society with a high infant mortality is to have many.

And those many will then grow up, work, help in the fields, and when their parents grow old, support them.

That is the reason. Having many kids is actually a response to poverty - this only being true in poor nations though - and where religious factors don't come into play.

Having fewer kids wouldn't actually help them much. The chances of them being left to fend for themselves when they're old and helpless are just too high - and it's not as if the rest of the world cares.

What percentage of what you or I earn and consume goes to the world's poor?

Plus - who are you to judge that those impoverished children don't go on to have fulfilling lives? Who are you to judge that those children's lives are entirely meaningless? Or their existence pitiful? The joy they bring to each other, the joy they bring to their parents is surely worth it?

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams

Ok so if the poor people stop having so many kids, hey let's say they limit it to one- who here is gonna start supporting them i.e. sponsoring them regularly?

After all this logic of fewer kids= less poverty doesn't really work.

You have dim witted full grown adults blowing away cash by the thousands, if they stopped to think of their waste and how many poor families it would feed it would at least help rectify this situation.

The main thing is that quite a few people are selfish- selfish lives- me, me, me. They don't really care about others and whether the have 2 children or 12 it doesn't affect them one iota. Their selfishness does not give them compassion for others.

And when you think about it if Allah can give food to the birds who go back to their nests full then surely He provides for His slaves by whatever means.

:wswrwb:

[Noor_Usman]

Nerostyler - I think my sister has already answered it for you. Both my best friends have had children (one has had two!) despite using condoms and morning after pills :rolleyes:
My own mother had both me and my brother while on 'the pill'.

And as the sister said others just seem to have trouble getting pregant. I seem to have problems getting pregnant...so we plain just don't bother with birth control anymore. It's not up to us at the end of the day if anything happens :rolleyes:

[Neurostyler]

Nerostyler - I think my sister has already answered it for you. Both my best friends have had children (one has had two!) despite using condoms and morning after pills :rolleyes:
My own mother had both me and my brother while on 'the pill'.

And as the sister said others just seem to have trouble getting pregant. I seem to have problems getting pregnant...so we plain just don't bother with birth control anymore. It's not up to us at the end of the day if anything happens :rolleyes:

So long as the state isn't paying for all these babies, all is well.

[Joha]

So long as the state isn't paying for all these babies, all is well.

The state shouldn't pay for 'these' babies, the state shouldn't pay for any baby - but you fail to understand that the state actively wants to promote a higher birth rate (well, it has wanted to in the past), and the state considered this a good thing.

If you want to see the crisis when the birth rate falls too much - just look at Japan.

[sis_niqabi]

The state shouldn't pay for 'these' babies, the state shouldn't pay for any baby - but you fail to understand that the state actively wants to promote a higher birth rate (well, it has wanted to in the past), and the state considered this a good thing.

If you want to see the crisis when the birth rate falls too much - just look at Japan.

even china (a country that has 1 billion people) they limited the child birth rate thinking that it would help the country. but now china is going to face a problem with no one being able to take care of the aging population.

they were saying how 1 child will be responsible of taking care of their parents, maternal grandparents and fraternal grandparents in the future. that's too much responsibility for one child.

many Europeans countries now like Italy are now giving money to women so they can have more babies

and during WWII when the rationing was going on. large families were much better off than smaller familes

[Arsalan]

tax credits init

[THE PATH 2]

We are under Allah Taa'la's test by giving us so much to share among people; they are under Allah Taa'la's test for providing so little to observe patience.

i was about to post similar

it is not for us to start to judge allah..astaghfirullah..why this why that

why rich parents with no kids and vice versa etc

everyone is in a test..how we percieve the world and allahs decisions as to how he commands things is also a test..

please be careful in questioning allahs hikmah and ways...:ahb::ahb:

it is not for us to ask why? but to DO

[miss-islamic]

:start:

:salams

sis, yet it's not up to you, me or anyone else to decide in another person's affairs.

:wswrwb:

I’m not telling them how much kids they can have. I am discussing the phenomenon, just like others have no qualms of doing so with other people not wanting to have kids or a lot of kids because its expensive or whatever other reason. In this case, there is also the concern of how multitude of children will be brought up in poverty and suffering or even a quick death because of it.
ukhti first of all. have you ever thought that just maybe these poor people do not have access to birth control and therefore cannot limit the children they have? many people in third world countries live in rural area. those people barely have proper pharmacies and medical centers so i highly doubt getting birth control pills and condoms are on their list of things to get when they barely have things like antibiotics.
and even with birth control there's no guarantee that it will stop them from having kids. i know of this one sister who had 7 kids all while she was on the birth control. and she tried every birth control method,device and pill in the book.

2nd this is not an islamic attitude. the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told the muslims to have many children so that on the day of judgement the ummah will be great in numbers. now in that haidth there is no mentioning poor people should refrain from having kids.

3rd Allah will provide for one's child.
and even a family that has one kid that kid can go and strave.

There are natural ways to do “family planning.” Don’t continue to actively try to have kids after you can’t provide for the ones you already have (and as a result are suffering like no kid ever should). Don’t add more children that will have to be brought up like that. How can somebody argue against that?2nd this is not an islamic attitude. the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) told the muslims to have many children so that on the day of judgement the ummah will be great in numbers. now in that haidth there is no mentioning poor people should refrain from having kids.
Most of them are going to DIE, usually in a cruel way i.e starve to death, malnourishment. We are taking about the suffering of kids. It could easily could be lessened if the suffering people have less kids. Why in God name would anybody want to bring more kids (that people claim to love and that they are “innocent”) to be included in an already bad situation? In the name of having a large number of muslims?Well, putting religion to one side, the purely sociological explanation for high birth rates in developing countries is not that they're being irresponsible. They're actually being responsible - the one way to guarantee offspring in a society with a high infant mortality is to have many.

And those many will then grow up, work, help in the fields, and when their parents grow old, support them.

That is the reason. Having many kids is actually a response to poverty - this only being true in poor nations though - and where religious factors don't come into play.

Having fewer kids wouldn't actually help them much. The chances of them being left to fend for themselves when they're old and helpless are just too high - and it's not as if the rest of the world cares.

What percentage of what you or I earn and consume goes to the world's poor?

Plus - who are you to judge that those impoverished children don't go on to have fulfilling lives? Who are you to judge that those children's lives are entirely meaningless? Or their existence pitiful? The joy they bring to each other, the joy they bring to their parents is surely worth it?

Whatever supposed benefit they bring to family short term is nothing compared to the big issue it cause. One of the causes of poverty in poor countries is because of the high population. And I do know that reason they are poor is because of us and it’s our responsibility to help them..But (again and again) they are in no way helping the child poverty and suffering in their country by adding more to the list. Part of loving them is giving them basic necessity of life. They have that right on you. The only analogy I can think of is pets. If I get a bunch of pets because I love them and they make me fell all happy inside, but can’t give them the food, home e.t.c they need and they are all starving and sick because of it (I then go and get a bunch of more pets because of that :rolleyes: ), I would be committing animal abuse. Having a lot of children is not a right, it’s a luxury. Don’t have them if you can’t afford and provide for them.

[Noor_Usman]

Having a lot of children is not a right, it’s a luxury. Don’t have them if you can’t afford and provide for them.

As far as I am aware Allah has deemed having children a right for married men and women. If one does not want children the other has the right to a good explaination. And also as far as I am aware Allah has not stipulated anywhere a 'child limit' :up:

[sis_niqabi]

There are natural ways to do “family planning.” Don’t continue to actively try to have kids after you can’t provide for the ones you already have (and as a result are suffering like no kid ever should). Don’t add more children that will have to be brought up like that. How can somebody argue against that?Most of them are going to DIE, usually in a cruel way i.e starve to death, malnourishment. We are taking about the suffering of kids. It could easily could be lessened if the suffering people have less kids. Why in God name would anybody want to bring more kids (that people claim to love and that they are “innocent”) to be included in an already bad situation? In the name of having a large number of muslims?

but natural family planning methods are not effective for a lot of women. and the it works only 50% 50%. and then it goes back to how will these people know about these methods. most of these poor people are uneducated and many of them are not aware of family planning methods.

Whatever supposed benefit they bring to family short term is nothing compared to the big issue it cause. One of the causes of poverty in poor countries is because of the high population. And I do know that reason they are poor is because of us and it’s our responsibility to help them..But (again and again) they are in no way helping the child poverty and suffering in their country by adding more to the list. Part of loving them is giving them basic necessity of life. They have that right on you. The only analogy I can think of is pets. If I get a bunch of pets because I love them and they make me fell all happy inside, but can’t give them the food, home e.t.c they need and they are all starving and sick because of it (I then go and get a bunch of more pets because of that :rolleyes: ), I would be committing animal abuse. Having a lot of children is not a right, it’s a luxury. Don’t have them if you can’t afford and provide for them.

honestly ukhti im disgusted by your post. Allah said he would provide for one's children. and we do not know whether the childre are going to die or not. many village people who have kids they all survive. and how can you having lots of kids is a luxury? i don't remeber reading any hadith saying this. the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) actually ordered muslims to have many children so that the ummah would be great in number. and he also said do not fear for your children as Allah will provide for them

[$HugoBoss$]

Sure allah will provide but there's a limit to everything, just be reasonable and plan carefully.

[Ebony]

People should be responsible about it. Simple as that.

[sis_niqabi]

Salam

i think Muslims need to realize no matter how many birth control methods we use Allah is the ultimate planner. and if Allah decrees one has 7 kids then so be it. so if a poor person has 6 kids then it was the decree of Allah. or if one has no kids then it's the decree of Allah

[$HugoBoss$]

Salam

i think Muslims need to realize no matter how many birth control methods we use Allah is the ultimate planner. and if Allah decrees one has 7 kids then so be it. so if a poor person has 6 kids then it was the decree of Allah. or if one has no kids then it's the decree of Allah

So than why use birth control methods in the first place, i agree with that but allah gave us a brain for a reason.

[sis_niqabi]

So than why use birth control methods in the first place, i agree with that but allah gave us a brain for a reason.

my point was that we can use birth control and still wind up having many children. i know of a sister who used every birth contol method in the book. and she now has 8 kids.


how many children we have is up to Allah. now we use birth control with the intention of spacing out children. but if one has children it's the decree of Allah.

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams

I’m not telling them how much kids they can have. I am discussing the phenomenon, just like others have no qualms of doing so with other people not wanting to have kids or a lot of kids because its expensive or whatever other reason. In this case, there is also the concern of how multitude of children will be brought up in poverty and suffering or even a quick death because of it.

So what would be the case for a poor family in Africa to take up the rule China has taken- 1 kid each, what if that one kid dies in his youth- what then?

The thing that irks me is the same government who likes to dictate how people should run their lives have no qualms on how many pets one can have and how much money you can spend on them. If truly they were as 'concerned' as they made out to be then why not wipe out the interest from the money they give to the poor countries? Give these poor countries a fair chance to pay back a loan without a stifling interest on top of it.

As sis Ebony said it's responsibility hat is the key issue but whether the have 10 children or 20 is not dictated by us, it's up to each couple and how Allah wills it. If i saw governments helping the poor out constructively then a point could be made, but since there is no sign of it then this rule cannot apply to the poor (or rich)

:wswrwb:

[miss-islamic]

As I said earlier, I’m not asking them to have 1 kid. I also said, I do know that reason that they are poor is because of us and it’s our responsibility to help them but they are in no way helping the child poverty and suffering in their own countries by adding more to the list. Yes, the key issue is responsibility, which poor people are not doing when they have so much kids.but natural family planning methods are not effective for a lot of women. and the it works only 50% 50%. and then it goes back to how will these people know about these methods. most of these poor people are uneducated and many of them are not aware of family planning methods.



honestly ukhti im disgusted by your post. Allah said he would provide for one's children. and we do not know whether the childre are going to die or not. many village people who have kids they all survive. and how can you having lots of kids is a luxury? i don't remeber reading any hadith saying this. the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) actually ordered muslims to have many children so that the ummah would be great in number. and he also said do not fear for your children as Allah will provide for them

Actually, if my memory serves me correct, the Qur’an does refer to children in terms of luxury. There is an ayah where Allah (swt) says wealth and children (sons…) are the “ornaments” of the life of this world.but natural family planning methods are not effective for a lot of women. and the it works only 50% 50%. and then it goes back to how will these people know about these methods. most of these poor people are uneducated and many of them are not aware of family planning methods.



honestly ukhti im disgusted by your post. Allah said he would provide for one's children. and we do not know whether the childre are going to die or not. many village people who have kids they all survive. and how can you having lots of kids is a luxury? i don't remeber reading any hadith saying this. the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) actually ordered muslims to have many children so that the ummah would be great in number. and he also said do not fear for your children as Allah will provide for them

Oh please, 1400 years ago in the prophet (saw)’s time, people practiced basic birth control.As far as I am aware Allah has deemed having children a right for married men and women. If one does not want children the other has the right to a good explaination. And also as far as I am aware Allah has not stipulated anywhere a 'child limit' :up:

Maybe because one would expect that to be reflexive thought and action from a sane human beings ( i.e. not to add more kids if you can’t provide for the one you already have and the ones you already have are starving and sick because you can’t provide for them)?

[Dain Bramaged]

you don't have a choice with how many kids you get, if Allaah wills you to have 20..you will have them no matter what contraceptions etc etc you try

You know u cant prove what u just said :smack:

[Dain Bramaged]

contraception only works by the will of Allah, I know so many women who have used it and still got pregnant we cannot prevent what is Gods will, take as many precautions as you want.

Maybe if the guy wore protection, this wouldn't have happened :smack:

[Dain Bramaged]

there are also couples who take no precautions whatsoever and have yet been waiting years to get pregnant and the doctors can find nothing wrong with either of them.


My cuz waited over a year, nearly 2 years just to have a child and then on the other hand my friend and her hubbie have been waiting nearly 16 years. Whichever way u look, its allah's will.

Sis maybe ur cuz was sterile or their partner was :(

[Dain Bramaged]

tax credits init

lol

[Ebony]

I suppose if a couple decide they only want 2 kids instead of 20 they are somehow at fault for behaving in an "unislamic" manner for wanting a small family? :rolleyes:

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

I suppose if a couple decide they only want 2 kids instead of 20 they are somehow at fault for behaving in an "unislamic" manner for wanting a small family? :rolleyes:

Absolutely not sis, the choice is up to each indivdual.


The only issue is if one judges others i.e. whether one has 1 kid or 12 others cannot label them 'irresponsible' - be it they are dirt poor or really rich.

Money shouldn't determine things like this in my opinion.

:wswrwb:

[Ebony]

I don't see an issue with what the initial poster stated - albeit she could've worded it differently. It is really very bad that people try to live outwith their means - children are also a means and in order to not only feed and clothe them but to give them a good quality of life (like education) one needs money for that and although children aren't always planned at least be able to plan their future to be one that is adequate rather than one where they languish in poverty because the parents hadn't heard of family planning.

[Neurostyler]

I don't see an issue with what the initial poster stated - albeit she could've worded it differently. It is really very bad that people try to live outwith their means - children are also a means and in order to not only feed and clothe them but to give them a good quality of life (like education) one needs money for that and although children aren't always planned at least be able to plan their future to be one that is adequate rather than one where they languish in poverty because the parents hadn't heard of family planning.

Yes e.g. would you purchase 20 pants on credit and claim Allah will automatically provide?

[THE PATH 2]

each child comes into the world with its own rizq

they dont take from their parents rizq

[$HugoBoss$]

People with this kind of attitude are the one's who end up having no children, than cry all day and all night :rolleyes:

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

Yes e.g. would you purchase 20 pants on credit and claim Allah will automatically provide?

Would you buy a tin of paint now and store it in the attic and say that it's for a house you will buy in the future when you settle down and have kids?

What sort of answer are you looking for with a question like that?

[sis_niqabi]

I don't see an issue with what the initial poster stated - albeit she could've worded it differently. It is really very bad that people try to live outwith their means - children are also a means and in order to not only feed and clothe them but to give them a good quality of life (like education) one needs money for that and although children aren't always planned at least be able to plan their future to be one that is adequate rather than one where they languish in poverty because the parents hadn't heard of family planning.

ukhti in Islam, family planning is only for spacing out children. not limiting them. this is why getting sterilized is not permissible in Islam because you cannot limit the children you have. birth control is only allowed for spacing the children out.
and your quality of life is not everyone's definition. go to uni or getting a good education is not considered a necessity in some people's cultures/villages. it's a luxury for them. because many of them are going to work the land anyway so no need for a degree(in their cultrue). and just because one cannot afford to send one's child to uni doesn't mean they shouldn't have kids.

you and people with similar thinking have no right to tell anyone who and who cannot have many kids. it's not for you or me to decide.

I suppose if a couple decide they only want 2 kids instead of 20 they are somehow at fault for behaving in an "unislamic" manner for wanting a small family? :rolleyes:

yes this is an unislamic attitude. this is a western way of thinking. of just have the 2.5 kids idea. but even in the west 30 years ago having big familes was the norm

[sis_niqabi]

Yes e.g. would you purchase 20 pants on credit and claim Allah will automatically provide?

you are not even a Muslim. so how would you understand faith in Allah. and and understanding that when Allah says something in the Quran we have to put all of our faith in it.
so if Allah says he will provide for our children. then we put our trust that he will.

but you wouldn't understand that.

[GKM]

I would say we have to look in Quran what Allah says
(I can not remeber the name of surah) Allah says that a mother should feed her milk to her baby for at least 24-30 months and father is responsible for all expenses of milk or he has to arrange to pay for milk if mother can not provide her milk. so it means that there should be an interval of approximately 3 years between first baby to 2nd baby. So in 10 years you may have 3 children which is not burden for parents and there will be no effect on mother's health.
There is Family planning in islam otherwise you can not control -:hidban:
But in third world country or poor people they have one child per year which effects on everything and you can not feed them properly and you can not educate them properly.Mothers looks much older than her age.

[Ebony]

ukhti in Islam, family planning is only for spacing out children. not limiting them. this is why getting sterilized is not permissible in Islam because you cannot limit the children you have. birth control is only allowed for spacing the children out.
and your quality of life is not everyone's definition. go to uni or getting a good education is not considered a necessity in some people's cultures/villages. it's a luxury for them. because many of them are going to work the land anyway so no need for a degree(in their cultrue). and just because one cannot afford to send one's child to uni doesn't mean they shouldn't have kids.

you and people with similar thinking have no right to tell anyone who and who cannot have many kids. it's not for you or me to decide.

yes this is an unislamic attitude. this is a western way of thinking. of just have the 2.5 kids idea. but even in the west 30 years ago having big familes was the norm

There's nothing "islamic" about continuing and knowingly having children that you have no recourse to provide for. It is irresponsible. This isn't even about uni, its about a basic education which doesn't come for free in most parts of the world.

And you ma'am have no right to call people Western or unislamic even simply because they don't want to churn out babies like popcorn and actually give a hoot about their quality of life rather than how many bro/sis they have to play about in a mud pit in.

[Neurostyler]

you are not even a Muslim. so how would you understand faith in Allah. and and understanding that when Allah says something in the Quran we have to put all of our faith in it.
so if Allah says he will provide for our children. then we put our trust that he will.

but you wouldn't understand that.]

aka don't kill the ones you have, not create 10000 purposely if you don't have the means.

[sis_niqabi]

There's nothing "islamic" about continuing and knowingly having children that you have no recourse to provide for. It is irresponsible. This isn't even about uni, its about a basic education which doesn't come for free in most parts of the world.

And you ma'am have no right to call people Western or unislamic even simply because they don't want to churn out babies like popcorn and actually give a hoot about their quality of life rather than how many bro/sis they have to play about in a mud pit in.

ukhti you are not getting. Allah didn't say don't have children if you can't afford. because Allah says in the Quran that he will provide for the children.

and i didn't call you western or unislamic. but this non-sense of having 2.5 kids is not an islamic idea. it's a western one. i said the thinking was western and unislamic. not you.

what im saying is you have no right to say who can and cannot have children. Allah only decides.

and alot of people can't even afford to educated themselves. so what they are not suppose to have any children?

[Ebony]

Most parents want to provide a good life for their children. Those who don't - I wonder why they want children at all; cheap labour perhaps?

[Asma-SE]

I think the comment was very immature!
I'm not rich and inshallah Allah will bless me with lots of kids, its this Kuffar mentality. If you have True Faith in Allah to provide for you then these kinds of comments would not be falling out of your mouth. Allah is the Only Sustainer and Provider

A good life isnt everything that a child wants

[Neurostyler]

A good life isnt everything that a child wants

Well food on the table and a high mortality rate would be nice.

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

Well food on the table and a high mortality rate would be nice.

A lot of rich people gamble away their money and lose everything, so does that mean they should send their kids to the social services to be adopted once they become bankrupt? Money comes and goes- it's a fact of life and the Believers will certainly be tested through wealth as well.

No one can guarantee their food on the table at the following day let alone in the few years we have to live. The food that we have is Rizq from Allah and He provides for His slaves, the Lord who sees the birds who are hungry go home with their bellies full. This is rizq provided by Allah, should they stay at home and wait for the food or give up?

Each parent wants a good lifestyle for their children, but one cannot dictate how many kids another can have. This is not something they have any say in the matter.

:wswrwb:

[ummbilal]

I suppose if a couple decide they only want 2 kids instead of 20 they are somehow at fault for behaving in an "unislamic" manner for wanting a small family? :rolleyes:

sister it all depends(as does everything in Islam) on their intention, if they intended to have 2 children for economic reasons or selfish reasons ie babies are hard work or noisy etc.. then to limit it to two wouldn't be halal,

if the reasons are the mothers health or the well being of the first two children, or if the mother feels over burdened with these two.

to deliberately limit your family to two children takes a lot of contraception which has a lot of side effects, to aim to have a 2.4 children family is a kufr ideology and we Muslims should avoid it, many Muslims have only one or two children and this is often for reasons you cannot understand simply ie fertility problems, father works away from home mothers health etc.. so dont condem the ones who do have small families or the couples who havent had children yet, as we dont know there personal situations.

As Muslims we need to think like Muslims, personally I'd rather have 10 pious children making duas for me when i am in my grave even if i die in childbirth at the age of 39(i'd be a shaheed inshaallah!)

we need to let go of the dunya attitude and seek jannah.

have you seen the Othodox Jews? how many children do they have? on average each family has at least 5,
we Muslims are leaving marriage later and later Muslimahs are using chemical contraceptions which is destroying their fertility and health and when we do decide to have a family its limited to 2 or 3 children subhannallah.

The best time in a womans live to carry a child, when she is most healthy and has highest fertility is between 18 and 20 years old, so maybe inshaallah we should plan to get married early and start our families early rather than chasing after careers and other dunya stuff, not to say a career is a bad thing for a Muslimah as many have a lot to give society and we are some of the best educated women in the country, but dont forget our biggest job and responsibilities are as mothers and wives, these two jobs are what will help us to gain the most barakah

The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "There are seven kinds of rnartyr other than those killed in the way of Allah. Someone who is killed by the plague is a martyr, someone who drowns is a martyr, someone who dies of pleurisy is a martyr, someone who dies of a disease of the belly is a martyr, someone who dies by fire is a martyr, someone who dies under a falling building is a martyr and a woman who dies in childbirth is a martyr." (Book #16, Hadith #16.12.36)


Imaam Muslim Bin Hajjaj (rahimahullah) says in his book Saheeh Muslim:

Qutaybah Bin Sa’eed narrated to us (that): Layth narrated to us from S’ad Bin Abee Sa’eed from his father from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) said:

“There was not from amongst the Prophets a Prophet except that he was given from the signs by the likes of which the people believed in him. And indeed, that which I was but given is revelation which Allah revealed to me, so I hope that I will have the most followers from them (the Prophets) on the Day of Resurrection.”

‘And no living creature is there on the earth but its sustenance is due from Allah. And He knows its dwelling place and its deposit…’ [Surah Hud: Verse 6]

Allah will provide for every child born inshaallah and in the west with free education and health care and even benefits noone can say they fear poverty for their children and use contraception because of this, you cannot tell what will happen tomorrow, where ever you live.

Inshaallah we will all be guided to the truth and saved from being polluted with kufr attitudes.

( I talk to myself before anyone else)

[Morris]

Human beings have an innate instinct to reproduce. to deny an adult of that is to deny them of a fundamental human right.
If children are not provided for despite their parents best efforts then it is the fault of the state.

But what is the state Tranquility, except 'the people' ? We make the state and we make babies.

[eldon]

is irresponsible. They’re already suffering and their bringing more children that will suffer and they can’t provide basic human needs to. Though the poor are a people that need help and we should help them but they can easily help themselves, their situation and those that help them by not having so much kids. What say you?

It is infuriating to think such poisoned thoughts are among the people of Islam!

I am trying not to make this a personal attack against you, miss-islamic, but I think your name is somewhat accurate: you MISS being ISLAMIC to a large degree in this matter!

If all the men and jinn in the world conspired to stop one baby from being conceived, they would be utterly unable to do so, unless Allah willed. How much less can a husband and wife who have mutual conjugal rights expect to be able to limit their conceptions?

As others have explained, there is a degree of natural family planning that Allah has incorporated into Islamic life by virtue of the 2 years of nursing that the mother is to give each child and Allah Himself has promised to provide for the children born anyway -- so there is no great faith required on the part of any who are willing to work with what Allah has provided for them to "provide basic human needs" for our children.

But marriage, conjugal relations, and children are all vital parts of Islam-- they are part of the FAITH that each believer is to live out by TRUSTING that Allah will provide and worshipping Him faithfully AS He does so.

Allah has ordained affliction-- suffering -- for the people that He loves.

"And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to as-Saabiroon (the patient), who, when afflicted with calamity, say: 'Truly, to Allah we belong and truly, to Him we shall return.' They are those on whom are the Salawaat (i.e. who are blessed and will be forgiven) from their Lord, and (they are those who) receive His Mercy, and it is they who are the guided ones..." [al-Baqarah:155-157]

Whether that suffering be physical from lack of proper nutrition in a poor country in a large family or whether that suffering be mental from lack of the Joy of Life in a rich country in a small family, it is not for us to accuse Allah of being unjust in bringing a child into the world in such circumstances. Nor are we to accuse people of "bringing more children that will suffer" since it is Allah's Decision for each child to be born.

We are to be thankful for what He gives us, and for what He gives to others, wishing for others what we wish for ourselves and helping them to receive it if we are able. I hope you will turn your criticisms against poor people into the inspiration to help those in need who have been blessed with many children and I hope you will be thankful for every child that Allah gives you as well.

[muslimma]

agreed :up:

...allah gives what he wants to who he wants.....it has already been written..its not cos of their 'irresponsible' actions that they have these children its in their kismat and is decided by allah

^excellant point :up: