View Full Version : I'm Now a Perfect Muslim, So I Now Hate Everyone Who Isn't
As a fat old non-Muslim outsider, I'd just like to point out a phenomenon I've noticed on this forum.
Many of our participants were not absolutely 100% orthodox Muslims from birth.
Many of our participants led very un-Islamic lives for many years before returning to or rediscovering Islam.
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
oi, Islam is Perfect, it's Muslims who just ruin the view
Novelist
12-02-08, 08:37 AM
Am a new here, thus I cannot actually say much here because I don't have much knowledge at how these folks you're of are. Any way, from what I have so far grasped, pls excersice more patience and live with all peacefully.
aboosait
12-02-08, 08:38 AM
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
At the point of associating partners with Allah by way of seeking intercession of the dead and the buried. This because they do not refrain from doing it even though they are being reminded time and again of the fact that Allah s.w.t has on several occasions reminded us that He would if He Wills forgive all sins except the sin of associating partners with Him.
4:48 Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.
4:116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
oi, Islam is Perfect, it's Muslims who just ruin the view
Well, that's pretty much my point.
Islam seems more patient and tolerant than a number of Muslims.
PiElle2
12-02-08, 08:51 AM
those who think they are perfect muslims are lying to themselves. there's no perfect muslim since our beloved prophet (PBUH).
but i do feel that it's usually the converts/reverts who bring reminders to our brothers and sisters in Islam.
:o
THE PATH 2
12-02-08, 09:44 AM
good thread..sometimes reformed people arent really reformed
they lose humility and become arrogant..forgetting their sins and becoming more aware of others
in essence theyve become worse..spiritually..
though physically they may look and do more
:salams
The Sahaaba (AS) were constantly upset, because none of them felt that they were good enough or pious enough to get to Jannah, but look how they felt about the Muslims around them. Do you remember ever reading that a Sahaabah (AS) said something nasty about another Muslim, and they were the best generation...
:jkk:
:salams
the_middle_road
12-02-08, 11:47 AM
Imam Ghazalli says that you should always regard other people as being better than yourself. If you see someone younger than you, then he is better since he has had less time to commit sins. And if he is older than, then you should still regard him as better than you since he has had more time to do good deeds. And so on. This is the kind of humility we should be having.
Wassalaam.
We as Humans will never be perfect, Alhamdulillah the religion itself will always be perfect, but Muslims will always have their own views, you will find some born Muslims saying they are Muslims because they have a Muslim name, but do not pray, you will find Muslims who follow cultural rubbish, you will find reverts who have done this and that in the past, going back to this and that. Sadly there too many different "sects" of a Muslim, but only one will go to Paradise, and they are the ones who follow the Quran and Sunnah, not just reading it, but following it, acting upon what they have learnt.
Summayah
12-02-08, 12:01 PM
Imam Ghazalli says that you should always regard other people as being better than yourself. If you see someone younger than you, then he is better since he has had less time to commit sins. And if he is older than, then you should still regard him as better than you since he has had more time to do good deeds. And so on. This is the kind of humility we should be having.
Wassalaam.
Excellent reminder.
Tahiyah
12-02-08, 12:19 PM
they say ex-smokers are the ones most disgusted by cigarette smoke. i wonder why?
as a convert to Islam who had her share of wild days, i would say my past experiences have made me more tolerable. not the opposite. i think i have more patience and insight with some people and certain behaviors and combined with what i know about my Deen, this allows me to give certain people better dawah (all depends on what type of advice they may need and what solutions Islam has to offer)
also, there is nothing wrong with muslims being disgusted by acts of disobedience to Allah (swt)..but muslims must also remember to be compassionate and not arrogant.
personally, i think many of us could benefit from some basic adaab classes
Um Abdullah
12-02-08, 12:23 PM
there is a quote, I think by one of the salaf? correct me if I am wrong.
it says (not exact words but same meaning )
when it comes to religion (piety), look at the person who is higher than you (more pious)
and when it comes to worldly matters (i.e. money) look at the person who is lower than you (i.e. the poor, less fortunate)
----------------
that way you will continue to work harder to become a better Muslim and won't become arrogant
and you will be satisfied with what you have from worldly matters, be thankful, and won't be greedy.
Only be envious of two people:
One who has more knowledge than you, and one who spends more in the way of Allaah SWT than you...
aboosait
13-02-08, 12:32 AM
...........If you see someone younger than you, then he is better since he has had less time to commit sins.
Great sins that carry severe punishment do not require much time for doing.
And if he is older than, then you should still regard him as better than you since he has had more time to do good deeds. .
Small sins done over a period of time would weigh the same or even more than a single great sin in terms of punishment.
So stop comparing youself with others. try to spread ma'aroof and prevent the munkar.
[COLOR="Blue"][B]Great sins that carry severe punishment do not require much time for doing....
Only a young person would say something like that!
:rofl1:
EbuZerr
13-02-08, 08:25 AM
those who think they are perfect muslims are lying to themselves. there's no perfect muslim since our beloved prophet (PBUH).
but i do feel that it's usually the converts/reverts who bring reminders to our brothers and sisters in Islam.
:o
Rasulullah (sav) was not perfect..... He was the best of all Muslims in history, but not perfect.....
aboosait
13-02-08, 08:34 AM
Only a young person would say something like that!
:rofl1:
The funnier part is that these people are writing purely out of context
You had asked:
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
How many people have answered to any of these questions?
I had answered only to the second question. I skipped your first question beause I have never forgotten my past life.
oh :( i got so happy when i read the title :crying: i thought cashew reverted :crying:
i feel sad and decieved now :(:(
PiElle2
13-02-08, 11:00 AM
The funnier part is that these people are writing purely out of context
You had asked:
How many people have answered to any of these questions?
I had answered only to the second question. I skipped your first question beause I have never forgotten my past life.
sometimes you do wish your brothers and sisters don't commit same painful mistakes you have commited in the past... oh well... if only they are willing to listen. some just learn it the hard way.
As a fat old non-Muslim outsider, I'd just like to point out a phenomenon I've noticed on this forum.
Many of our participants were not absolutely 100% orthodox Muslims from birth.
Many of our participants led very un-Islamic lives for many years before returning to or rediscovering Islam.
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
this isn't always true, however this could be because they can see How absurd, wrong or Evil the acts of some Non-Muslims were ...
a Muslim by nature will hate an Act of Evil, he will not remain Indifferent, as though it doesn't matter ...
What exactly do you mean by Tolerant?
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
I doubt anyone will loose their memories that Quickly, but certainly their Un-Islamic behaviour will be detested by the Muslims, we also tend to look back and change ourselves, improve ourselves rather than dwelling on the past all the time ...
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
To those who have a desire to learn about Islam, and not merely make Insinuations, I don't think my Revert Brothers/Sisters have lost, or will loose Sympathy for them, and Indeed we Including myself make Dua to Allah Ta'ala to guide them to the Siratal-Mustaqim, the Straight Path that leads to Al-Jannah/Paradise ...
ash tell me Who on this Forum is Arrogant enough to Claim that they are a Perfect 100% Muslim?
the_middle_road
13-02-08, 03:17 PM
Hasan al-Basri advised some of his students admonishing them about the state of being proud. He said :
1. Do not deceive yourself into becoming too proud because you are in a good or righteous environment , for there is no place that is better than Paradise, and our father, Adam (as) experienced there what is known to all.
2. Do not become proud merely because you worship often, for consider what happened to Iblis (Satan) after he spent a great deal of time worshiping.
3. Do not think yourself great because you have met with righteous people, for there is no man more righteous than the Prophet :saw:, yet the disbelievers and hypocrites did not benefit by simply knowing him.
Source : Gems and Jewels - Darussalam : Saudi Arabia.
Salaam Inshallah Ceshew will converted with the grace of ALALH.
Inshallah ALALH will show him the light soon.
AH
extempers
13-02-08, 11:17 PM
If I'm a "good Muslim" then our ummah is in big trouble. I try my best to think the best of other Muslims, but it's true. Mistakes that you no longer do and you see others do, you sometimes think "why are they still doing that"?
On my part, I do mistakes over and over and I keep asking myself "why am I still doing that?"
So...
Z-Blade
13-02-08, 11:22 PM
As a fat old non-Muslim outsider, I'd just like to point out a phenomenon I've noticed on this forum.
Many of our participants were not absolutely 100% orthodox Muslims from birth.
Many of our participants led very un-Islamic lives for many years before returning to or rediscovering Islam.
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
First of all, one can never be a perfect Muslim. We can strive to be, but will never attain this rank. And Emaan has no limit, we can keep drawing closer to Allah from what I've read. This is because Allah Himself is infinite, and the closest anyone has ever been to Allah was the Prophet :saw: himself. So it's his level we strive to be.
Secondly, Muslims looking down upon others, especially their own brothers and sisters, are no where close to perfect since this reeks of arrogance and is not a part of the character of a model Muslim.
Peace out.
oh :( i got so happy when i read the title :crying: i thought cashew reverted :crying:
i feel sad and decieved now :(:(
Please forgive me, MMS. I'm very sorry if my thread title misled you. Deception wasn't my intention.
I was addressing the tendency of some Muslims to rush to judgment of other Muslims.
It's as though they take a snapshot of some Muslim involved in some un-Islamic behaviour and say, "See! Here we have absolute proof that this person despises Islam and will never, ever change!"
And yet in many cases these same snapshot-taking Muslims were not always observant Muslims.
They don't seem to ask themselves, "If I was able to change for the better, why do I think it's impossible for other Muslims to do so?"
Z-Blade
14-02-08, 12:11 AM
Rasulullah (sav) was not perfect..... He was the best of all Muslims in history, but not perfect.....
:salams,
Astaghfirullah, this is not correct bro. Here's a fatwa to show he :saw: is the perfect Muslim and creation:
"Can we really be like the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)?
http://www.sunnipath.com/images/Q_Image.jpgAs salaam'alaykum,
I recently listened to the story about how the angel came down and cleansed the Prophet sallallahu'alayhi wa salaam's heart when he was a child.
That got me thinking... he's perfect and the best of all creation, right? And we're supposed to try and follow his way and be like him. But, my many shortcomings seem to get in the way.
Is it really possible to be like him, when he had that direct connection (through Jibreel alayhi salam) and his heart was purified? I know we have the Qur'an and Hadith, but we have such serious disadvantages in terms of language and the time we live in and ourselves, no angel contact, etc.
Can we really be more like him? Is it just a matter of dua' , reading books about him and striving? I'm still just me. That's the other thing, we all have certain dispositions and temperaments. I guess I'm unclear on what it means to be like him sometimes. Is it just making our actions in accordance to his actions? I just don't feel satisfied eating red grapes because he ate red grapes. Allah forgive me for minimizing these kinds of actions, but really, I'm concerned with making my opinions and my tastes (no pun intended) and sense of values and my heart in accordance with him. How do I do that? How do I change the way I think or feel about things or how I react to situations?
http://www.sunnipath.com/images/A_Image.jpg
http://www.sunnipath.com/images/bism01.jpg
Assalamu alaykum
Allah Most High tells us in the Qur'an, 'I have not created men and jinn except that they should worship Me', and He says numerous times in the Qur'an that the universe was created for the truth and was not without purpose.
To explain this 'truth' and the required 'worship' he sent messengers who each brought teachings and guidance for their people. To believe and follow them was to be guided unto the Truth and to disbelieve and reject them was to turn away from one's own soul as one's soul was only created to follow the Truth.
The succession of prophets continued until a millennium and a half ago Allah Most High from His eternal wisdom sent to us his final prophet. A prophet who Allah Most High did not send except as a 'mercy to the worlds'(21:107) and who was adorned with a 'tremendous character'(68:4).
He was in his own words 'the foremost of the descendants of Adam' (Muslim). His tremendous rank with Allah is clearly apparent from his ascension into the heavens beyond the furthest lote tree to where neither angel nor prophet has gone. His unique position is clearly understood from the fact that the previous prophets were informed of him and were enjoined to follow him if he appeared in their respective times (from the Qur'an 3:81). He was therefore the ultimate manifestation of prophethood and the greatest expression of the Truth that is the raison d'etre of every single atom in the universe.
Exemplifying the Prophet is therefore a complete summary of everything that Allah expects of us. 'Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised among them a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His communications and purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, although before that they were surely in manifest error.' (3:164)
Allah commanded us to obey him when he commanded us and to refrain from what he forbade us. 'Whatever the Prophet gives you accept it, and whatever he forbids you refrain from it.' (59:7) 'Whoever obeys the Prophet obeys Allah.' (4:80)
He expected us to emulate the Prophet and said concerning him, 'Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.'(33:21)
This verse in particular summarises the whole religion with miraculous brevity. It contains by means of subtle indication, in the words of the great Sufi and mujahid, Emir Abdul Qadir al-Jaza'iri, 'everything that every author has ever recorded from the rulings of the religion or of this-worldly affairs'. He goes on to explain this mentioning that this 'excellent example' has four aspects to it.
The first of these is the way Allah dealt with him. Sometimes he was given to, and sometimes withheld from. Sometimes harmed and sometimes benefited. Sometimes he defeated his enemies and sometimes they defeated him. Sometimes his prayers were answered and at other times they were not. At times Allah made it clear that his actions were as if they were Allah's actions, due to his being Allah's supreme vice-regent and at times he was told that he was incapable to act. From this aspect of his blessed life (Allah bless him and give him peace) we can gain deeper knowledge about Allah and his sublime attributes, especially Allah's complete lack of need for His creation and their complete and utter need for Him. We learn about Allah's wisdom in creation and that the next life is worth much more than this life.
The second aspect is his own dealings with Allah; his being the perfect slave. This was manifested by his extreme expression of neediness of his Lord, his reliance on Him in every matter, his contentment with Allah's decree and his complete gratitude for Allah's gifts to him and his patience in the face of tribulation. This aspect of his life summarises the many rulings of the sacred law; the rules of worship and the rules for living one's life and these are innumerable in detail.
The third aspect is the dealings of other people with him. Some believed in him while others disbelieved. Some hated and some loved. There were those who harmed him in word and deed with every painful matter short of death. He was wounded in battle, his face was struck, his tooth was broken, people who displayed friendship to him betrayed him and all of this did not increase him except in insight and determination. One gains from this aspect of his character an understanding of what previous prophets underwent and what callers to the truth in all times must necessarily undergo and how they should handle it with indifference and earnestness in attaining their goal.
The fourth aspect is his dealings with other people, which could be summarized by the word 'compassion'. Allah Most High said to him, 'Then maybe you will kill yourself with grief, sorrowing after them, if they do not believe in this message.' He was patient with them. They wronged him and he forgave them. They withheld from him and he gave to them. They were harsh with him and he put up with it. They cut him off but he never cut them off. He said, 'O Allah forgive my people for they do not know.' He repaid harshness with kindness emulating thereby the character and merciful attributes of his Lord Most High. One gains from this aspect the completion of noble character and the knowledge of dealing with people (siyasa lit. politics) in a way to attain religious and this-worldly objectives which are the only real way for the world to be run and flourish and the surest path to happiness in this life before the next.
Emir Abdul Qadir concludes, 'It is therefore incumbent on every seeker...to keep this verse in front of him in every place, and to observe it in every time as the situations that he finds himself in will never exceed these four aforementioned states.' (al-Mawaqif, 1)
One can conclude from the above that:
- It can be stated that emulating the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the very purpose of our creation.
- This emulation is not just in matters of law and ritual acts of worship but rather includes character traits, one's spiritual relationship with Allah as well as knowing how to deal with people intelligently to enable the attainment of this-worldly and other-worldly objectives.
- Allah put us on the earth to test us with a test that would separate between people that follow their lusts, people that try to go straight but keep falling on their faces and people who are whole-heartedly dedicated. The nature of such a test is that it cannot be easy.
Therefore there must be struggle to perfect one's emulation, a struggle that were one to live for a thousand years one would keep struggling and striving to further improve oneself and thereby draw nearer and nearer to Allah. This is the wisdom behind Allah sending us a prophet who is like us but yet infinitely beyond us in every aspect of perfection; so that we would follow and yet never be satisfied with ourselves especially comparing our own imperfection to his perfection.
- Ultimately having the greatest prophet as our prophet gives us rise to the greatest hope. Being the last nation, the final stronghold and bastion of the Truth, in a time when we are being onset from every direction, hope is the greatest thing that we have. This most beloved of Allah's creation unceasingly prayed for our protection and guidance so our hope is that Allah will answer his prayers. We should therefore never despair and believe it farfetched for us to be able to follow his noble example. In the next world he is granted the supreme intercession which is for the sinners among the Muslims. Imam al-Busiri says,
Glad tidings to us, the group of Muslims, for surely we have
From the Divine concern an uncollapsable support
When Allah called our caller to him, the 'best of prophets'
We became the best of nations (Burda, 117-118)
To be like the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), in the above mentioned aspects, one has to make recourse to the teachings which he brought and ultimately one must seek out people who themselves have struggled and strived to emulate the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). Emulating someone that one can see and interact with is infinitely more effective, by complete consensus of the people of knowledge, than reading a book and applying it as theory.
Self trained people are usually susceptible to subtle defects in sincerity and find themselves clinging to nothing more than easily applied aspects of Islamic appearance, such as growing a big beard and using a miswak. Such people without a teacher can often become among the most diseased people in a community who know neither patience nor compassion.
These teachers, the sheikhs of the spiritual path, encourage people to fulfill a number of injunctions which include:
- Constant repentance. They say that this is the fuel that enables one to spiritually progress.
- Constant prayer on the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). They mention that this can result in all forms of spiritual attainment and brings one's heart closer to the Prophet's heart which eases the following in his footsteps.
- To increase in love for the Prophet as he said, 'A man is with the one that one loves.' (Bukhari)
- To study sacred knowledge to know what actually is demanded of us by the sacred law and to apply it so that one's actions are in accordance with his (Allah bless him and give him peace).
- To constantly pray for guidance.
- To read books which inspire us to improve ourselves. This includes:
o Hadith collections such as Riyad al-Salihin which contain the basic etiquettes of Islam.
o Spiritual treatises such as the Ihya 'Ulum al-Din of Imam al-Ghazali (of which a number of sections have been translated into English), the books of Imam al-Haddad printed in English by Quilliam press, the Risala of Imam al-Qushayri (translated under the title 'Principles of Sufism') and other such books.
o Books that focus on the Prophetic character and greatness such as the Shifa of Qadi Iyad (translated by Aisha Bewley) and the life of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) such as Muhammad by Martin Lings.
- To pray for good company that uplifts and inspires one.
May Allah bless us and enable us to be like our Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) in word and in deed so that whoever sees us it will be as if they see him. Ameen.
Sohail Hanif"
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=6282&CATE=3600
Wassalam.
EbuZerr
14-02-08, 08:07 AM
Rasulullah (sav) was human and beser... If we say that he was perfect, we destroy his humanity... He had human desires ect.. He made mistakes ect... Kur'an is shaheed to his mistakes you know, Allah (cc) warns him about his mistake in Kur'an.. With this Allah(cc) makes the most important difference between himself and his kul and Rasul Muhammed(sav)...
Perfectness is only for Allah(cc).. Rasulullah was the best of all Muslims in the history.. He did not have any sin in his life... Those are true.. But this does not make him perfect... We can not increase him to the place of Allah (cc)... I know that people do not use this term to mean this... But concepts must be used very carefully...
Lord Summerisle
14-02-08, 08:20 AM
oi, Islam is Perfect, it's Muslims who just ruin the view
This is a well worn cliche and is sheer nonsense. To coin a phrase, this is like saying you can't judge a football team by it's results.
Islam IS it's followers.
Now theres food for thought.
This is a well worn cliche and is sheer nonsense. To coin a phrase, this is like saying you can't judge a football team by it's results.
Islam IS it's followers.
Now theres food for thought.
what? no it's not, Islam is a religion a way of life, Muslims are those who follow it, except there are some who don't really follow it...duh :wacko: this aint sports btw
ebolebo
14-02-08, 09:46 AM
oi, Islam is Perfect, it\'s Muslims who just ruin the viewIslam is like Communism: a perfect system, which has only one problem: it doesn t work
PS: that s Churchill on Communism
Hasan al-Basri advised some of his students admonishing them about the state of being proud. He said :
1. Do not deceive yourself into becoming too proud because you are in a good or righteous environment , for there is no place that is better than Paradise, and our father, Adam (as) experienced there what is known to all.
2. Do not become proud merely because you worship often, for consider what happened to Iblis (Satan) after he spent a great deal of time worshiping.
3. Do not think yourself great because you have met with righteous people, for there is no man more righteous than the Prophet :saw:, yet the disbelievers and hypocrites did not benefit by simply knowing him.
Source : Gems and Jewels - Darussalam : Saudi Arabia.
:jkk: akhi Indeed it is a Quality of the Righteous that they remain Modest and Not Boastful, or arrogant ...:up:
Rasulullah (sav) was human and beser... If we say that he was perfect, we destroy his humanity... He had human desires ect.. He made mistakes ect... Kur'an is shaheed to his mistakes you know, Allah (cc) warns him about his mistake in Kur'an.. With this Allah(cc) makes the most important difference between himself and his kul and Rasul Muhammed(sav)...
Perfectness is only for Allah(cc).. Rasulullah was the best of all Muslims in the history.. He did not have any sin in his life... Those are true.. But this does not make him perfect... We can not increase him to the place of Allah (cc)... I know that people do not use this term to mean this... But concepts must be used very carefully...
Akhi he was the Perfect Human, the Perfect Example for Mankind, because he is the Best out of the Whole of Creation ...
Allah Tabarak Wata'ala is incomparable, He Is Utterly Perfect ... has no weaknesses at all, has control, Dominion over everything ...etc ...
:jkk:
Islam is like Communism: a perfect system, which has only one problem: it doesn t work
PS: that s Churchill on Communism
Unfortunately Communism was a Disease Injected by Atheism, and Atheists under the Communist regimes mass murdered thousands if not millions of people ... not really something to brag about ...
Communism destroyed itself very rapidly, Islam However is Growing and Growing and has been for Centuries , because it is the Religion of Truth, Truth is destined to prevail and Obliterate Falsehood ... :up:
Al-Quran,Chapter 17 : Verse 81
-------------------------------
"When Truth has arrived, Falsehood perishes, for falsehood by it's nature is bound to perish"
:sub:
ebolebo
14-02-08, 10:07 AM
Communism destroyed itself very rapidly, Islam However is Growing and Growing and has been for Centuries , because it is the Religion of Truth, Truth is destined to prevail and Obliterate Falsehood ... :up:
Al-Quran,Chapter 17 : Verse 81
\"When Truth has arrived, Falsehood perishes, for falsehood by it \'s nature is bound to perish\"
:sub:Well, you have faith, so you believe in this.
Good for you.
Communists also had faith they would prevail, and ultimately run the world. Didn t quite work out like that.
e
ebolebo
14-02-08, 10:42 AM
they say ex-smokers are the ones most disgusted by cigarette smoke. i wonder why?
as a convert to Islam who had her share of wild days, i would say my past experiences have made me more tolerable. not the opposite. i think i have more patience and insight with some people and certain behaviors and combined with what i know about my Deen, this allows me to give certain people better dawah (all depends on what type of advice they may need and what solutions Islam has to offer)
also, there is nothing wrong with muslims being disgusted by acts of disobedience to Allah (swt)..but muslims must also remember to be compassionate and not arrogant.
personally, i think many of us could benefit from some basic adaab classesHello Tahiyah
what i have remarked (e.g. on this forum) is that many Muslims play what I call the *Mulsimier than thou* game : i.e. they seem to enjoy pointing out to other Muslims what they do wrong, many times on insignificant details.
Reading this forum, it may seem that the most important thing in the world is how women cover themselves, and if it s OK listening to music.
All in all, I think many people try to get, out of religion, some kind of social satisfaction, a feeling of superiority.
This is, of course, also valid for Muslims as a group, who like to think they are *the best of peoples*, and thrive in this imaginary superiority.
Best regards
e
Well, you have faith, so you believe in this.
Good for you.
Communists also had faith they would prevail, and ultimately run the world. Didn t quite work out like that.
e
I stated a Fact, not merely what I believe,
surely you Must concur that Truth will prevail over Falsehood?
communists came and went within a Few Decades as their atrocities destroyed themselves ...
Islam however is being embraced by Billions of People and is continuing to grow even after 1400 years ...
regards.
ebolebo
14-02-08, 11:48 AM
I stated a Fact, not merely what I believe,
Since you gave no proof, you stated your belief, not a fact.
If it were a fact backed up by sound proof, most people would agree with you.
communists came and went within a Few Decades as their atrocities destroyed themselves ...
Islam however is being embraced by Billions of People and is continuing to grow even after 1400 years ...
Billions ? how many billions ? 10, 20 ? exaggeration is a symptom of insecurity.
1400 years are but a drop in the ocean, if confronted with the age of the Universe.
There are many important analogies between the mindset of Communists and the mindset of *political Islam*.
In fact, this would be a good subject for a discussion
Regards
I stated a Fact, not merely what I believe,
surely you Must concur that Truth will prevail over Falsehood?
communists came and went within a Few Decades as their atrocities destroyed themselves ...
Islam however is being embraced by Billions of People and is continuing to grow even after 1400 years ...
regards.
The ideal of Communism is pretty neat. In the early conceptualism of communist man as discussed in the German Papers, Karl Marx described the ideal state of natral communism as men and women dealing justly with each other, selling their labour for it's real value and receiving its worth, so one man does not live from the exploitation and oppression of another.
As an ideal, it seems pretty good for a man made philosophy of life.
He then elaborated on this ideal so that he could explain how our deviation away from natural communism has made a dynamic system which shapes society, its politics and its social and economic relations. He saw communism as reaching back to the roots, but even he posited the need of a clique of selfless idealists as guardians for the idealistic future in a position of power - the inteligensia - to nurture the development of their illiterate exploited brothers into a position of just power sharing.
So should we be satisfied by saying the religion of Islam in practice is a society made up of the ideal Muslim and Muslimah. Does it mean that as long as we know there is an Ideal, we don't have to be that ideal, or that we should all stive to be that ideal?
In Islam, rather than waiting for a just overseeing Khaleefah, we should each create a pocket of Islam around us. First look at ourselves, our actions and our duties, then those whom we are responsible for, and then our neighbours and our society. Gradually, the ideal system can be built up from the ground on the basis of local consensus, as we put ito place the institutional controls that allow the the establishment of a ruling leadership that will execute God's Law. Our "intelligensia", or guardians of the ideal, are first Allah, and then the scholars of Islam, who have preserved for us the ideal example of the society the Prophet of Islam built.
Don't sell idealism down the river. A man-made idealism may actually work for society - has not Allah made us all on the Fitra.
Islam is merely more practical and comprehensive.
Hanifa
ebolebo
14-02-08, 06:53 PM
The ideal of Communism is pretty neat. In the early conceptualism of communist man as discussed in the German Papers, Karl Marx described the ideal state of bla bla bla IMHO you should adopt a more down-to earth language. A complicated language is a clear indication of a fuzzy intellect.
Yes, Communism had laid all the blueprints for an ideal society - didn t work
Same for Islam (OK, OK you can still enthuse for the legendary *rashidun Caliphs* - but, since then ? )
Lord Summerisle
14-02-08, 07:11 PM
what? no it's not, Islam is a religion a way of life, Muslims are those who follow it, except there are some who don't really follow it...duh :wacko: this aint sports btw
Sports? Ever heard of an analogy? Obviously not.
A religion is judged by it's followers. A religions followers are a manifestation of it's very essence.
I rest my case.
THE PATH 2
14-02-08, 07:23 PM
Sports? Ever heard of an analogy? Obviously not.
A religion is judged by it's followers. A religions followers are a manifestation of it's very essence.
I rest my case.
and the followers "human" are humans ..with all the traits that humanity/insanity brings:D
Lord Summerisle
14-02-08, 07:31 PM
and the followers "human" are humans ..with all the traits that humanity/insanity brings:D
Yep, absolutely. I acknowledge that we all have human frailties and failings.
Z-Blade
14-02-08, 11:48 PM
:salams,
Rasulullah (sav) was human and beser... If we say that he was perfect, we destroy his humanity... He had human desires ect.. He made mistakes ect... Kur'an is shaheed to his mistakes you know, Allah (cc) warns him about his mistake in Kur'an.. With this Allah(cc) makes the most important difference between himself and his kul and Rasul Muhammed(sav)...
Perfectness is only for Allah(cc).. Rasulullah was the best of all Muslims in the history.. He did not have any sin in his life... Those are true.. But this does not make him perfect... We can not increase him to the place of Allah (cc)... I know that people do not use this term to mean this... But concepts must be used very carefully...
Beser?! :scratch: When we say he :saw: is perfect akhi, we don't mean at all on the same level of Allah, but the perfect creation, perfect human being and Muslim, as I stated in my first post. Also bro Raziel said it nicely already:
Akhi he was the Perfect Human, the Perfect Example for Mankind, because he is the Best out of the Whole of Creation ...
Allah Tabarak Wata'ala is incomparable, He Is Utterly Perfect ... has no weaknesses at all, has control, Dominion over everything ...etc ...
:jkk:
:jkk: :')
Wassalam!
LastFriday
15-02-08, 12:10 AM
Sports? Ever heard of an analogy? Obviously not.
A religion is judged by it's followers. A religions followers are a manifestation of it's very essence.
I rest my case.
Well that goes back to your ideology, and correct me if I'm wrong that religion is man made. However, Islam is not man made. It is the direct order of God, Allah (swt). Adam the first Muslim and Abraham the first Muslim to establish Islam. Prophets sent down after him to continue to remind humans of the Existence of that one All Mighty god such as Moses, Jesus, Sulaiman, and Lastly Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I'm sure you already know all this.
I do agree that the followers do define the religion however, throughout history we can see the failure and downfall of people and society, but evidently they were replaced by Allah (swt). He (swt), will replace the followers if they continue to transgress and disobey. So in all actuality, Islam, The Quran, the one Message will always be the same, it won't change, the followers and the people will.
PiElle2
15-02-08, 01:43 AM
Sports? Ever heard of an analogy? Obviously not.
A religion is judged by it's followers. A religions followers are a manifestation of it's very essence.
I rest my case.
would you agree a person will be judged by its parents too?
al-ghazalli
15-02-08, 04:36 AM
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
excellent point Cashew, many Muslims forget that we must first look at our own shameful selves before we are critical of the sins of our brothers & sisters. I think this has to do with a loss spiritual purification within the Muslim community itself.
Imam Shafi (Rahimullah) the founder of the Shafi guild states in his Al-Diwan:
لسانك لا تذكر به عورة امرئ *** فكلّـك عورات وللناس ألسـن
وعينك إن أبدت إليك معايباً *** فدعها وقل : يا عين للناس أعينُ
Let not your tongue mention the shame of another
For you yourself are covered in shame and all men have tongues.
If your eye falls upon the sins of your brother
Shield them and say: "O my eye! All men have eyes!"
We Muslims need to heed his advise and rectify ourselves before we rectify others.
And with Allah is all Success.
IMHO you should adopt a more down-to earth language. A complicated language is a clear indication of a fuzzy intellect.
Yes, Communism had laid all the blueprints for an ideal society - didn t work
Same for Islam (OK, OK you can still enthuse for the legendary *rashidun Caliphs* - but, since then ? )
You've got a pretty low tolerance level.
How's this for the first part:
People should treat each other fairly, and each pay the other the full price for their work.
And this for the scond part:
Because they don't, making money out of other people by underpaying them for their work and then and selling their products at a higher price has lead to some people having more power and wealth at the expense of others.
And this for the third part:
Educated and selfless idealists can help the suckers get their fair share of wealth and power, so everyone is content.
Problem: No one is that selfless.
Result: Communism doesn't work.
Reason: The blue print is faulty
By the way, elebo, my comment was on Raziel's post. I was simply trying to point out outright dismissal of communism as an ideal is a mistake.
I thought your comment on smoking was good. I had planned to say something similar, but then I saw your post.
My point about Islam is that it should grow from the root and expand. You can practice Islam all on your own, with your family, as your local community or in society at large. Each step is a prerequisit: a building block for the next step. That's why it works.
There is also an intellectual elite. But they are not given secular power. These are the scholars, whom ordinary believers can consult and/or study with. They tell us what is ideal. It is up to us to do the right thing in our lives.
This, besides it being from God's guidance, is what makes it a whole different order in difference to communism.
Hanifa
Sports? Ever heard of an analogy? Obviously not.
A religion is judged by it's followers. A religions followers are a manifestation of it's very essence.
I rest my case.
look analogies make sense, what you say doesn't. A football team is measured by how good the players are, a religion (Islam in this case) is measured by the principles and rulings...two different things...you could have said Football in general (the sport ie. the rules and how to play...) that would have made an analogy yet that isn't measured by the players....
Hello Tahiyah
what i have remarked (e.g. on this forum) is that many Muslims play what I call the *Mulsimier than thou* game : i.e. they seem to enjoy pointing out to other Muslims what they do wrong, many times on insignificant details.
Reading this forum, it may seem that the most important thing in the world is how women cover themselves, and if it s OK listening to music.
All in all, I think many people try to get, out of religion, some kind of social satisfaction, a feeling of superiority.
This is, of course, also valid for Muslims as a group, who like to think they are *the best of peoples*, and thrive in this imaginary superiority.
Best regards
e
You need to read for once, this is what the Quran says ...
AL-Quran, Chapter 3 : Verse 110
---------------------------------
"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
If you remove your blinkers you will notice from the Verse above that to be among the Best of People the Above criteria (Highlighted in Blue) is Required ...
those who enjoin Good and Forbid the Evil, are always Superior to Evil doers ... :up:
Unless of course you have this deluded Idea that Evil-Mongers are Superior to the Good ... :rubeyes:
Nauzubillah-Min-Zaliq!
Since you gave no proof, you stated your belief, not a fact.
If it were a fact backed up by sound proof, most people would agree with you.
Billions ? how many billions ? 10, 20 ? exaggeration is a symptom of insecurity.
1400 years are but a drop in the ocean, if confronted with the age of the Universe.
There are many important analogies between the mindset of Communists and the mindset of *political Islam*.
In fact, this would be a good subject for a discussion
Regards
It's one or the Other, either You Believe that Falsehood will prevail, or that Truth will so which is it?
How many Billions? here...
have a look at this ... http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
and this ... https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html
21.01% of the world according to the CIA World Factbook are Muslims, which Equates to approximately ... 1.4 Billion ...
heres another ... http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php
approximately 1.48 billion Muslims ...
...
The ideal of Communism is pretty neat. In the early conceptualism of communist man as discussed in the German Papers, Karl Marx described the ideal state of natral communism as men and women dealing justly with each other, selling their labour for it's real value and receiving its worth, so one man does not live from the exploitation and oppression of another.
As an ideal, it seems pretty good for a man made philosophy of life.
He then elaborated on this ideal so that he could explain how our deviation away from natural communism has made a dynamic system which shapes society, its politics and its social and economic relations. He saw communism as reaching back to the roots, but even he posited the need of a clique of selfless idealists as guardians for the idealistic future in a position of power - the inteligensia - to nurture the development of their illiterate exploited brothers into a position of just power sharing.
So should we be satisfied by saying the religion of Islam in practice is a society made up of the ideal Muslim and Muslimah. Does it mean that as long as we know there is an Ideal, we don't have to be that ideal, or that we should all stive to be that ideal?
In Islam, rather than waiting for a just overseeing Khaleefah, we should each create a pocket of Islam around us. First look at ourselves, our actions and our duties, then those whom we are responsible for, and then our neighbours and our society. Gradually, the ideal system can be built up from the ground on the basis of local consensus, as we put ito place the institutional controls that allow the the establishment of a ruling leadership that will execute God's Law. Our "intelligensia", or guardians of the ideal, are first Allah, and then the scholars of Islam, who have preserved for us the ideal example of the society the Prophet of Islam built.
Don't sell idealism down the river. A man-made idealism may actually work for society - has not Allah made us all on the Fitra.
Islam is merely more practical and comprehensive.
Hanifa
Any system of Life which Neglects its own Creator will self implode over time, and this exactly what happened to Communism, it came and it went... as with many other Isms ...
Islam is Superior and Much more Practical and the Only Legitimate way of life, not concocted by Men ...
all concocted ways of Life have falsehood instilled in them, communism is no different, the difference between Truth and Falsehood is a Big one, not a Minor one.
The Ideal elaborated is itself corrupted, had it not been so it would not have wiped itself out ...
:jkk:
ebolebo
15-02-08, 10:03 AM
Islam is Superior and Much more Practical and the Only Legitimate way of life, not concocted by Men ...
all concocted ways of Life have falsehood instilled in them, communism is no different, the difference between Truth and Falsehood is a Big one, not a Minor one.
The Ideal elaborated is itself corrupted, had it not been so it would not have wiped itself out ...
Raziel, on a serious note :
what s the point of endlessly repeating : *Islam is perfect, it is the truth* ?
Is this supposed to persuade anyone, or even to develop a discussion ? you can repeat until you are blue in the face * Islam is the truth*.
Muslims will applaud you, and non-Muslims will (at best) neglect what you say.
Once again: repeating endlessly : *I am right, and you are wrong* is a totally absurd way of discussing and giving dawah.
Best regards
ebolebo
15-02-08, 10:06 AM
21.01% of the world according to the CIA World Factbook are Muslims, which Equates to approximately ... 1.4 Billion ...
heres another ... http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php
approximately 1.48 billion Muslims ...
...So, 1.48 billion total of Muslims.
You wrote that
Islam however is being embraced by Billions of People.
Your figures do not allow for that.
The usual exaggerations, clear indication of insecurity
e
As a fat old non-Muslim outsider, I'd just like to point out a phenomenon I've noticed on this forum.
Many of our participants were not absolutely 100% orthodox Muslims from birth.
Many of our participants led very un-Islamic lives for many years before returning to or rediscovering Islam.
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
Usually at the moment they begin to feel superior for having seen "the light" so much so that they forget simple basic things like manners and etiquettes.
Any system of Life which Neglects its own Creator will self implode over time, and this exactly what happened to Communism, it came and it went... as with many other Isms ...
Islam is Superior and Much more Practical and the Only Legitimate way of life, not concocted by Men ...
all concocted ways of Life have falsehood instilled in them, communism is no different, the difference between Truth and Falsehood is a Big one, not a Minor one.
The Ideal elaborated is itself corrupted, had it not been so it would not have wiped itself out ...
:jkk:
Can't disagree with you there.
Is Judaism the true religion?
It started out true, the guidance to an ideal way of life. So why has it wiped itself out? Why have the people who followed it had God's anger trained upon them? Why has it ended up where it is?
Hanifa
PiElle2
17-02-08, 05:52 AM
Usually at the moment they begin to feel superior for having seen "the light" so much so that they forget simple basic things like manners and etiquettes.
sorry, sis, do you happened to be a convert by any chance...? if not, how would you know how a convert feels instead of judging them by what you 'see'....?
for your info, the 'superiority feeling' will not be known to the new converts if not mentioned or given by their fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. On the contrary, some people look at them converts in their faces to see for sure if they have "the light", otherwise i'm sure they get criticised too. And no, they did not 'forget' basic things like manners and etiquttes when everything in Islam is all new to them, if not, how can a convert be feeling superiority when what they know in the past have to all be re-learned. How can a person forget what he did not know in the first place...?
i just feel new converts need encouragements and old ones need reminders.
none is any better than the other, just different. at the end of the day, it's the piety that counts.
:)
No such thing as a perfect person.
Medievalist
18-02-08, 11:22 AM
I'm Now a Perfect Muslim, So I Now Hate Everyone Who Isn't. :outta:
No such thing as a perfect person.
There is, Prophet Muhammad :saw: was and is
... neither of us is though ...
:jkk:
As a fat old non-Muslim outsider, I'd just like to point out a phenomenon I've noticed on this forum.
Many of our participants were not absolutely 100% orthodox Muslims from birth.
Many of our participants led very un-Islamic lives for many years before returning to or rediscovering Islam.
And yet, now that these newly returned Muslims are practicing Islam, they have very little tolerance for people who are exactly like they were before they returned to Islam.
At what point do these newly returned Muslims completely forget their own past behaviour?
At what point do they lose all sympathy and compassion for people who are now exactly as they once were?
yeah, we should remember our own faults first.
actually, arrogance is such a bad thing, and it is so important for dawah and encouragement purposes that we try our best to protect ourselves from this.
Allah swt is perfect and nothing else is.
The Prophet Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) was the best example for us humans.
aisha2007
04-03-08, 11:22 AM
those who think they are perfect muslims are lying to themselves. there's no perfect muslim since our beloved prophet (PBUH).
but i do feel that it's usually the converts/reverts who bring reminders to our brothers and sisters in Islam.
:o
no such thing as a convert....and reminders are a dawah
Z-Blade
04-03-08, 01:52 PM
Allah swt is perfect and nothing else is.
The Prophet Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) was the best example for us humans.
:salams,
Please do not put down the status of the Prophet :saw:. No one is comparing him :saw: to Allah.
It's just semantics you're playing here anyway, since we can just as well say he :saw: was the perfect example. A sincere warning to my brothers and sisters: Whoever disparages (does not acknowledge his :saw: full status or belittles him) the Prophet :saw: becomes a murtad (apostate) and a kafir according to Ash-Shifa of Qadi Iyad (rated as one of the best books on the Prophet :saw:). There is one Part in it called "The Judgements concering those who think the Prophet :saw: imperfect or curse him, may Allah bless him and grant him peace".
And the first chapter of it: "Clarification about cursing the Prophet :saw: or saying that he is imperfect by allusion or clear statement". And in the first section of this chapter, in the first paragraph, it is written:
"Know that all who curse Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, or blame him or attribute imperfection to him in his person, his lineage, his deen or any of his qualities, or alludes to that or its like by any means whatsoever, whether in the form of a curse or contempt or belittiling him or detracting from him or finding fault with him or maligning him, the judgement regarding such a person is the same as the judgement against anyone who curses him. He is killed as we shall make clear. This judgement extends to anything which amounts to a curse or disparagement. We have no hesitation concerning this matter, be it a clear statement or allusion." [p373]
So be careful in what you say regarding him :saw:.
Wassalam.
:salams,
Please do not put down the status of the Prophet :saw:. No one is comparing him :saw: to Allah.
It's just semantics you're playing here anyway, since we can just as well say he :saw: was the perfect example. A sincere warning to my brothers and sisters: Whoever disparages (does not acknowledge his :saw: full status or belittles him) the Prophet :saw: becomes a murtad (apostate) and a kafir according to Ash-Shifa of Qadi Iyad (rated as one of the best books on the Prophet :saw:). There is one Part in it called "The Judgements concering those who think the Prophet :saw: imperfect or curse him, may Allah bless him and grant him peace".
And the first chapter of it: "Clarification about cursing the Prophet :saw: or saying that he is imperfect by allusion or clear statement". And in the first section of this chapter, in the first paragraph, it is written:
"Know that all who curse Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, or blame him or attribute imperfection to him in his person, his lineage, his deen or any of his qualities, or alludes to that or its like by any means whatsoever, whether in the form of a curse or contempt or belittiling him or detracting from him or finding fault with him or maligning him, the judgement regarding such a person is the same as the judgement against anyone who curses him. He is killed as we shall make clear. This judgement extends to anything which amounts to a curse or disparagement. We have no hesitation concerning this matter, be it a clear statement or allusion." [p373]
So be careful in what you say regarding him :saw:.
Wassalam.
Ok. But then perfection would be considered as relative, and perhaps there can be only one form of perfection. Also, does anyone know the arabic? SubhanAllah. I fear that this quote lays an unnecessary allegation on those who consider the Prophet Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) as a human being. Because in reality, a Muslim would not belittle or curse the Prophet Muhammad salAllahu alayhi wa sallam.
An evidence for true perfection of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) would arise from the Qur'an or Hadith, or at least be based on them.
Btw, do you know the arabic for this. I would be hesitant to rely on a single word in a translation.
JazakAllah khair for your weariness. Actually, I was unaware that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) has to be considered as perfect. You may need to correct me on this, with evidence. Otherwise, as you say, this semantics-business is probably not very useful for either of us.
Salaam.
Asma_Here
05-03-08, 09:53 AM
^ I agree with Brother Tosh. Where is that hadith quoted from? Page 373 of what..?
As for the topic, it's very true and very wrong of us Muslims to do that. Once we revert truly to Islam, we shouldn't do open criticism, rather we are supposed to pray for everyone else to be guided to the right path and embrace the mankind. We are not here to make ourselves look better than others. That's a huge waste of all the good deeds we do. Bacbiting about others, making them look like totally corrupt and ourselves as very pious and Godfearing.. A God fearing person wouldn't do that. Rather mind his own business.
May Allaah guide us all and May Allah put the true faith in our heart.. May we have better judgement and may we avoid the sin of backbiting and insulting others. Ameen.
Z-Blade
05-03-08, 07:26 PM
:salams,
Ok. But then perfection would be considered as relative, and perhaps there can be only one form of perfection. Also, does anyone know the arabic? SubhanAllah. I fear that this quote lays an unnecessary allegation on those who consider the Prophet Muhammad (salAllahu alayhi wa sallam) as a human being. Because in reality, a Muslim would not belittle or curse the Prophet Muhammad salAllahu alayhi wa sallam.
An evidence for true perfection of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) would arise from the Qur'an or Hadith, or at least be based on them.
Btw, do you know the arabic for this. I would be hesitant to rely on a single word in a translation.
JazakAllah khair for your weariness. Actually, I was unaware that the Prophet Muhammad (saw) has to be considered as perfect. You may need to correct me on this, with evidence. Otherwise, as you say, this semantics-business is probably not very useful for either of us.
Salaam.
Yeah actually I see your point in the first paragraph, and I doubt you would belittle the Prophet :saw:, but I was just saying to be careful akhi.
Yes, the past 372 pages show from Quran and Sunnah and scholars' sayings how he is perfect and his full status according to Islam, so it's no wonder he didnt bother quoting any in that paragraph as it's already been proven, although that's just a small part of the whole chapter.
I don't have the Arabic, but scholars have said this translation is reliable and the translator is good. But if you would like to check it up, feel free to buy the original Ash-Shifa in Arabic inshaAllah :').
It's best for you to buy that book and judge for yourself because I've forgotten a lot of things from it. I think when it says he :saw: is perfect, we mean the perfect creation. Wa iyyaka wa barakallahu feek bro.
^ I agree with Brother Tosh. Where is that hadith quoted from? Page 373 of what..?
May Allaah guide us all and May Allah put the true faith in our heart.. May we have better judgement and may we avoid the sin of backbiting and insulting others. Ameen.
It's not a hadith, but it is based on Quran and Sunnah as it's the view given by classical scholars and some of the best scholars. Page 373 of Ash-Shifa or Qadi 'Iyad. I've explained myself in the original post.
Ameen.
Wassalam.
Raziel, on a serious note :
what s the point of endlessly repeating : *Islam is perfect, it is the truth* ?
Is this supposed to persuade anyone, or even to develop a discussion ? you can repeat until you are blue in the face * Islam is the truth*.
Muslims will applaud you, and non-Muslims will (at best) neglect what you say.
Once again: repeating endlessly : *I am right, and you are wrong* is a totally absurd way of discussing and giving dawah.
Best regards
I'm not here to Persuade anyone, but to Deliver the Message of Truth ...
whether you or anyone accepts or not is not my Problem ...
I will not be questioned for your acts nor will you be Questioned for mine ...
and I didn't say I am Right You are Wrong, if your going to put it that way then Allah Tabarak Wata'ala is Right the Kuffar are in the Wrong ...
lastly I don't nor will I cater to the Whims of Non-Muslims ...
regards.
and before anyone tells me I know Ebo's banned ...
So, 1.48 billion total of Muslims.
You wrote that
Your figures do not allow for that.
The usual exaggerations, clear indication of insecurity
e
billions meaning more than One Billion ... :rolleyes:
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