View Full Version : Marriage for Sex...Is it possible?
Raashid
30-01-08, 09:48 AM
Here's a controversial topic that some Muslims may care to comment on (but my guess is most wouldn't want to).
I'm sure most of the men know (but few would admit) that our primary interest in females is sexual. The Western so called sexual revolution liberated men from responsibilities whilst giving them freedom to indulge themselves with women.
For Muslims, we of course don't have such an outlet, but there's no denying that Muslim men are still, well men. So how exactly do we solve this problem? As we know, trying to keep our desires halal can be very difficut. Getting married usually means jumping through hoops. Muslims are generally the worst of economically so the men can't usually provide the means that a woman wants in marriage.
Some barely halal options have come about in the Middle East - misyar marriage for example. The Shiah have their mut'a, which no doubt most Sunnis (men) wish hadn't been abrogated. Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines :rolleyes:
Worse are the Muslims who commit zina but still have an arranged marriage to please family and perpetuate the cycle of miserable family life that most Muslims seem to have.
Any thoughts on how we solve this problem? Should Muslim women be more independent and be encouraged to choose husbands because they're attracted to them, rather then continue with this culture of preserving family status, honour etc?
Considering that zina is a major sin which is easier to fall into then say drinking alcohol, shouldn't Muslims be trying to solve this problem pratcically, rather then just making airy-fairy claims that we should be doing things according to the Sunnah, Sahaba (ra) etc. when it's obvious most Muslims are far too weak in character to have that sort of patience?
Any thoughts, from sisters as well as brothers?
.: hayat :.
30-01-08, 10:04 AM
Here's a controversial topic that some Muslims may care to comment on (but my guess is most wouldn't want to).
I'm sure most of the men know (but few would admit) that our primary interest in females is sexual. The Western so called sexual revolution liberated men from responsibilities whilst giving them freedom to indulge themselves with women.
For Muslims, we of course don't have such an outlet, but there's no denying that Muslim men are still, well men. So how exactly do we solve this problem? As we know, trying to keep our desires halal can be very difficut. Getting married usually means jumping through hoops. Muslims are generally the worst of economically so the men can't usually provide the means that a woman wants in marriage.
Some barely halal options have come about in the Middle East - misyar marriage for example. The Shiah have their mut'a, which no doubt most Sunnis (men) wish hadn't been abrogated. Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines :rolleyes:
Worse are the Muslims who commit zina but still have an arranged marriage to please family and perpetuate the cycle of miserable family life that most Muslims seem to have.
Any thoughts on how we solve this problem? Should Muslim women be more independent and be encouraged to choose husbands because they're attracted to them, rather then continue with this culture of preserving family status, honour etc?
Considering that zina is a major sin which is easier to fall into then say drinking alcohol, shouldn't Muslims be trying to solve this problem pratcically, rather then just making airy-fairy claims that we should be doing things according to the Sunnah, Sahaba (ra) etc. when it's obvious most Muslims are far too weak in character to have that sort of patience?
Any thoughts, from sisters as well as brothers?
Muslims who marry Western women r required to pay the dowry/mahr even to them...here in masjid,imam tell to Muslims to pay to wife the right she has even if she is not muslimah...just he do not need permission frm her father and buy house...(in some cases these r required too even if the woman and her family r non muslims)
.: hayat :.
30-01-08, 10:05 AM
Here's a controversial topic that some Muslims may care to comment on (but my guess is most wouldn't want to).
I'm sure most of the men know (but few would admit) that our primary interest in females is sexual. The Western so called sexual revolution liberated men from responsibilities whilst giving them freedom to indulge themselves with women.
For Muslims, we of course don't have such an outlet, but there's no denying that Muslim men are still, well men. So how exactly do we solve this problem? As we know, trying to keep our desires halal can be very difficut. Getting married usually means jumping through hoops. Muslims are generally the worst of economically so the men can't usually provide the means that a woman wants in marriage.
Some barely halal options have come about in the Middle East - misyar marriage for example. The Shiah have their mut'a, which no doubt most Sunnis (men) wish hadn't been abrogated. Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines :rolleyes:
Worse are the Muslims who commit zina but still have an arranged marriage to please family and perpetuate the cycle of miserable family life that most Muslims seem to have.
Any thoughts on how we solve this problem? Should Muslim women be more independent and be encouraged to choose husbands because they're attracted to them, rather then continue with this culture of preserving family status, honour etc?
Considering that zina is a major sin which is easier to fall into then say drinking alcohol, shouldn't Muslims be trying to solve this problem pratcically, rather then just making airy-fairy claims that we should be doing things according to the Sunnah, Sahaba (ra) etc. when it's obvious most Muslims are far too weak in character to have that sort of patience?
Any thoughts, from sisters as well as brothers?
why u say tht?4 me doesn't seem like tht...i see the contrary...
Muslims who marry Western women r required to pay the dowry/mahr even to them...here in masjid,imam tell to Muslims to pay to wife the right she has even if she is not muslimah...just he do not need permission frm her father and buy house...(in some cases these r required too even if the woman and her family r non muslims)
They may be required to pay the dowry be it a small amount. Compare this to non-western woman where her extended family demand crazy amounts of money, a house and other luxurious items. It is seen as a business venture for them to make as much money from the husband’s family as possible. It is due to our silly and backward mentality and culture that many Muslims commit zina.
why u say tht?4 me doesn't seem like tht...i see the contrary...
This is a controversial topic simply because most muslims that are living this life of misery try to justify and defend it. They are only deluding themselves!
Raashid
30-01-08, 10:26 AM
why u say tht?4 me doesn't seem like tht...i see the contrary...
I should say Muslims in Indian subcontinet, I don't know what other Muslim cultures are like but my guess is it's the same.
.: hayat :.
30-01-08, 10:27 AM
Here's a controversial topic that some Muslims may care to comment on (but my guess is most wouldn't want to).
I'm sure most of the men know (but few would admit) that our primary interest in females is sexual. The Western so called sexual revolution liberated men from responsibilities whilst giving them freedom to indulge themselves with women.
For Muslims, we of course don't have such an outlet, but there's no denying that Muslim men are still, well men. So how exactly do we solve this problem? As we know, trying to keep our desires halal can be very difficut. Getting married usually means jumping through hoops. Muslims are generally the worst of economically so the men can't usually provide the means that a woman wants in marriage.
Some barely halal options have come about in the Middle East - misyar marriage for example. The Shiah have their mut'a, which no doubt most Sunnis (men) wish hadn't been abrogated. Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines :rolleyes:
Worse are the Muslims who commit zina but still have an arranged marriage to please family and perpetuate the cycle of miserable family life that most Muslims seem to have.
Any thoughts on how we solve this problem? Should Muslim women be more independent and be encouraged to choose husbands because they're attracted to them, rather then continue with this culture of preserving family status, honour etc?
Considering that zina is a major sin which is easier to fall into then say drinking alcohol, shouldn't Muslims be trying to solve this problem pratcically, rather then just making airy-fairy claims that we should be doing things according to the Sunnah, Sahaba (ra) etc. when it's obvious most Muslims are far too weak in character to have that sort of patience?
Any thoughts, from sisters as well as brothers?
as i know,in islam we have the right to choose wht please us with the permission of course of family...islam forbids to marry your daughter against her wish/approval...i do not say tht r not situations when girl is married against her wish...
Here's a controversial topic that some Muslims may care to comment on (but my guess is most wouldn't want to).
I'm sure most of the men know (but few would admit) that our primary interest in females is sexual.
Muslims from indian - subcontinent don’t have the backbone to stand up to their families regarding these issues. They all pretend they want a arranged marriage to some fat cousin from back home even though in their heart they hate it and want to marry western women. They are only condemning their lives to perpetual misery.
.: hayat :.
30-01-08, 10:29 AM
They may be required to pay the dowry be it a small amount. Compare this to non-western woman where her extended family demand crazy amounts of money, a house and other luxurious items. It is seen as a business venture for them to make as much money from the husband’s family as possible. It is due to our silly and backward mentality and culture that many Muslims commit zina.
but this is against islam and muslims should not do this..so this is not cuse of being muslims but cuse of being such ppl...terrorists r not like tht cuse of religion but cuse of their bad thinking...islam wanted to erase this kinda jewish thing which make marriage be a business...
as i know,in islam we have the right to choose wht please us with the permission of course of family...islam forbids to marry your daughter against her wish/approval...i do not say tht r not situations when girl is married against her wish...
Have the right to choose what? In many cases it is simpy a case of emotional blackmail. As I said before, they do not have the courage or backbone to raise their issues. Therefore, they are to blame for their misery bacause they are weak!
Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
thats not correct akhi, a woman ( even a western one) needs a walli to get married. A marriage is invalid without one and they are living in sin and committing zinnah, regardless of culture islamic rules stand.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines
true it wouldnt be the first time i have heard someone say this, and i heard it from ignorant men, some of the north africans especially also have the idea that this applies even to muslimahs. I have heard several say ( like my ex-husband) that you can use a revert muslim woman ( because shes not a "real" muslimah shes not from a muslim familly ) so they say that u can marry her for the passport, use her for sex and financial provision, they send her out to work and make her provide for the home, while hes at uni getting his fat p.h.d because shes not considered as his "real" wife ( they say how can a white western woman be a "real" muslim wife ) its just a stop gap for the next 10-20 years to make a fortune return home and marry a "real wife" ie: someone from their own country and nationality, leaving behind the wife and children that they had here. Just seen a woman going through this now, she had no clue her husband was building a block of apartments in his home land for his new wife and his familly, and after 19 years of marriage 2 kids and 3 abortions he forced her to have he left her and the kids and went back home which was always his plan once he had made his millions here, problem was he never told his wife about his little scheme.
a big favorite of the bangladeshis in my area is to marry the western women for passport,as well as using her for sex. This involves going to a local night club and finding a pretty girl, after a few months of dating her put a khimar on her head and telling her that she has to say "la illaha il Allah in front of the imam, the imam says ok these are the 5 pillars and now u are a muslim, she says ok, and he marries her to the brother of course this woman doesnt even beleive in a God at all, sisters come and throw flowers over her head and there u go...
i just had to deal with one case where this happened a few months back, an 18 year old girl came to speak to me that she had been living with her boyfreind for 4 years, then one day she had 15 minutes warning about her "marriage" she told me that she was told by her boyfreind to get out of bed,and to come to the restaurant where he works, when she got there she found the "imam" and 3 men waiting for her she was told to say the shahadda, then she was told now u a muslim and now you are getting married, to top it off she was 6 months pregnant at the time...
i then got a call from her "husband" saying can i teach her islam and how to wear khimar and how they both want to come for lessons about islam with me. I met the girl and her " husband", and she asked him to leave and speak with me in private. she was very upset said she doesnt want to be a muslim, she didnt know that was her "wedding" day and she has no interest in learning about islam.... i felt so ashamed in behalf of my brothers and the so called "imam" and i told her she is not a muslim by saying these words she can only be a muslim by belief, and that wasnt a wedding she had at all, ( how can i tell her that it is haram for her boyfreind to marry her at all when she is not even a christian or a jew, and she is an atheist who does not beleive in Allah ta ala at all) told her boyfreind she was haram for him though... i havent heard from them again.
or many cases i have also seen, they get a non muslim girl pregnant live with her for years, without their parents knowing anything at all about this ever. Then when the time comes for these men to marry from "back home" they go home get married, leave their wife there in bangladesh visit her twice a year send money back to her and their families are non the wiser about their sons and their illigitamate western born grandchildren. I am sick to death of hearing about local girls who got pregnant by yet another bangladeshi muslim.
solution for this ? wallahi i would like to personally lash them all very hard for disobeying Allah ta ala and bringing shame upon this ummah. another part of this problem is ..the parents.... seems some people are more afraid of what their parents back home will say than what Allah ta ala knows about them...:torture:
They may be required to pay the dowry be it a small amount. Compare this to non-western woman where her extended family demand crazy amounts of money, a house and other luxurious items. It is seen as a business venture for them to make as much money from the husband’s family as possible. It is due to our silly and backward mentality and culture that many Muslims commit zina. yep its all about the dunya either way.
Raashid
30-01-08, 10:39 AM
Some Muslim men - usually Arabs marry Western women - and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
thats not correct akhi, a woman ( even a western one) needs a walli to get married. A marriage is invalid without one and they are living in sin and committing zinnah, regardless of culture islamic rules stand.
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines
true it wouldnt be the first time i have heard someone say this, and i heard it from ignorant men, some of the north africans especially also have the idea that this applies even to muslimahs. I have heard several say ( like my ex-husband) that you can use a revert muslim woman ( because shes not a "real" muslimah shes not from a muslim familly ) so they say that u can marry her for the passport, use her for sex and financial provision, they send her out to work and make her provide for the home, while hes at uni getting his fat p.h.d because shes not considered as his "real" wife ( they say how can a white western woman be a "real" muslim wife ) its just a stop gap for the next 10-20 years to make a fortune return home and marry a "real wife" ie: someone from their own country and nationality, leaving behind the wife and children that they had here. Just seen a woman going through this now, she had no clue her husband was building a block of apartments in his home land for his new wife and his familly, and after 19 years of marriage 2 kids and 3 abortions he forced her to have he left her and the kids and went back home which was always his plan once he had made his millions here, problem was he never told his wife about his little scheme.
a big favorite of the bangladeshis in my area is to marry the western women for passport,as well as using her for sex. This involves going to a local night club and finding a pretty girl, after a few months of dating her put a khimar on her head and telling her that she has to say "la illaha il Allah in front of the imam, the imam says ok these are the 5 pillars and now u are a muslim, she says ok, and he marries her to the brother of course this woman doesnt even beleive in a God at all, sisters come and throw flowers over her head and there u go...
i just had to deal with one case where this happened a few months back, an 18 year old girl came to speak to me that she had been living with her boyfreind for 4 years, then one day she had 15 minutes warning about her "marriage" she told me that she was told by her boyfreind to get out of bed,and to come to the restaurant where he works, when she got there she found the "imam" and 3 men waiting for her she was told to say the shahadda, then she was told now u a muslim and now you are getting married, to top it off she was 6 months pregnant at the time...
i then got a call from her "husband" saying can i teach her islam and how to wear khimar and how they both want to come for lessons about islam with me. I met the girl and her " husband", and she asked him to leave and speak with me in private. she was very upset said she doesnt want to be a muslim, she didnt know that was her "wedding" day and she has no interest in learning about islam.... i felt so ashamed in behalf of my brothers and the so called "imam" and i told her she is not a muslim by saying these words she can only be a muslim by belief, and that wasnt a wedding she had at all, ( how can i tell her that it is haram for her boyfreind to marry her at all when she is not even a christian or a jew, and she is an atheist who does not beleive in Allah ta ala at all) told her boyfreind she was haram for him though... i havent heard from them again.
or many cases i have also seen, they get a non muslim girl pregnant live with her for years, without their parents knowing anything at all about this ever. Then when the time comes for these men to marry from "back home" they go home get married, leave their wife there in bangladesh visit her twice a year send money back to her and their families are non the wiser about their sons and their illigitamate grandchildren. I am sick to death of hearing about local girls who got pregnant by yet another bangladeshi muslim.
solution for this ? wallahi i would like to personally lash them all very hard for disobeying Allah ta ala and bringing shame upon this ummah. another part of this problem is ..the parents.... seems some people are more afraid of what their parents back home will say than what Allah ta ala knows about them...:torture:
What disgraceful behaviour, but again, how can we deal woth this problem? I mean the fact that these guys have some sort of marriage and expect the girls to become Muslim seems they have some semblance of interest in the deen. So there are probably many that don't want to do haram, but how can we make it easier t get married, when the whole culture is geared to making it difficult?
shamson
30-01-08, 10:43 AM
Marrying for sex of course. isnt that the whole reason why men get married? To have sex in a halal manner?
Those who have a need (have sexual urges) to marry should marry asap to protect them from commiting zina.
Man is stronger then woman in many respects as this is how Allah the Most High created him and his weakness is women..... A woman is able to make her hubby the happiest man in the whole world:inlove: or destroy a man totally. In society, mentally,relgiously everything:torture:..... that my friend is a woman.:up:
What disgraceful behaviour, but again, how can we deal woth this problem? I mean the fact that these guys have some sort of marriage and expect the girls to become Muslim seems they have some semblance of interest in the deen. So there are probably many that don't want to do haram, but how can we make it easier t get married, when the whole culture is geared to making it difficult?
no they have no interest in the deen, if they did why are they selling alcohol for their job? why do they shave their beards ? why dont they pray ? why dont they attend even jummah salat ? why do they go to nightclubs? why are they in the bookies making bets ? why are so many addicted to heroin ? why are so many bangladeshis in our local prison for serious drug offences ? ( in fact a bangladeshi couple claimed that they couldnt be searched by local customs because it was ramadan and they couldnt have a dog near them :rolleyes: of course they were searched anyway and imprisoned for importing cocaine and heroin how embaressing for us to read the front page headline " drug importers refuse search by sniifer dogs due to muslim religious festival " :smack:
they are just scared that if their parents at home find out, then at least they can say shes a muslim.... even if she had never prayed in her life, and has no interest in Islam at all, shahaddah is just the password for them to get married, because again for some bizzare cultural reason they seem to think they can only marry a woman if she converts to islam, and apparently all she has to do is say words for that to be enough. They fear the people back home, more than they fear Allah. how can we make it better ? stop pandering to the whims of ignorant parents who use emotinal blackmail on their sons and daugters seems when it comes to peoples parents every one forgets to enjoin the good and forbid the evil , its much easier for the weak to just let the parents have their evil way. the muslims need to Fear Allah more than their parents.
Cartman
30-01-08, 10:54 AM
did yall catch the little slide comment he made about muslims being weak and character.
Basically all i got from the gist of your post, is to allow adultery and fornication. admit it, that was your point
[B][I] thats not correct akhi, a woman ( even a western one) needs a walli to get married. A marriage is invalid without one and they are living in sin and committing zinnah, regardless of culture islamic rules stand.
This is not true. Muslim men are permitted to marry women of the ahl-lal-kitab without any wali.
[B][I]a big favorite of the bangladeshis in my area is to marry the western women for passport,as well as using her for sex. This involves going to a local night club and finding a pretty girl, after a few months of dating her put a khimar on her head and telling her that she has to say "la illaha il Allah in front of the imam, the imam says ok these are the 5 pillars and now u are a muslim, she says ok, and he marries her to the brother of course this woman doesnt even beleive in a God at all, sisters come and throw flowers over her head and there u go...
They don't need to get the girl to say shahada if she is ahl-lal-kitab. Anyway, this shows that most muslim men just want western women for sex!
This is not true. Muslim men are permitted to marry women of the ahl-lal-kitab without any wali.
They don't need to get the girl to say shahada if she is ahl-lal-kitab. Anyway, this shows that most muslim men just want western women for sex!
you mean non practising muslim men, this is the issue here, i once got some advice about my situation from a shaikh, he said the best thing u can do is pray that ur ex-husband gets deported then he can stay in the muslim lands, go to the masjid 5 times a day and learn his deen, because these men bring shame upon our ummah coming to the west and doing what they do.
and what people need to understand is that the women of the people of the book, does not mean any woman who happens to be from a "christian" country. There are strict conditions, they need to be chaste women, who have never had a boyfreind, and who beleive in Allah u cannot just marry any woman who happens to say yea were christians or jews.
Raashid
30-01-08, 10:59 AM
did yall catch the little slide comment he made about muslims being weak and character.
Basically all i got from the gist of your post, is to allow adultery and fornication. admit it, that was your point
No way, anything haram isn't allowed whether people are weak or not and no Muslim should even think of excusing it. My point is more about social attitudes amongst Muslims that make marriage (which is good) difficult, due to family nuances, economic factors etc. whereas fornicating (bad) is easier to fall into.
If you're Muslim, I want to know how you solve those issues, don't care about people who want to fornicate, I care about helping people who DON'T want to fornicate.
shamson
30-01-08, 11:00 AM
no they have no interest in the deen, if they did why are they selling alcohol for their job? why do they shave their beards ? why dont they pray ? why dont they attend even jummah salat ? why do they go to nightclubs? why are they in the bookies making bets ? why are so many addicted to heroin ? why are so many bangladeshis in our local prison for serious drug offences ? ( in fact a bangladeshi couple claimed that they couldnt be searched by local customs because it was ramadan and they couldnt have a dog near them :rolleyes: of course they were searched anyway and imprisoned for importing cocaine and heroin how embaressing for us to read the front page headline " drug importers refuse search by sniifer dogs due to muslim religious festival " :smack:
they are just scared that if their parents at home find out, then at least they can say shes a muslim.... even if she had never prayed in her life, and has no interest in Islam at all, shahaddah is just the password for them to get married, because again for some bizzare cultural reason they seem to think they can only marry a woman if she converts to islam, and apparently all she has to do is say words for that to be enough. They fear the people back home, more than they fear Allah. how can we make it better ? stop pandering to the whims of ignorant parents who use emotinal blackmail on their sons and daugters seems when it comes to peoples parents every one forgets to enjoin the good and forbid the evil , its much easier for the weak to just let the parents have their evil way.
Listening to all this about bengalis has given me an upset stomach:(
yes I know what you mean! I went out to eat with my hubby at maieda grill whitechapel and by the time we got out it was about 11pm and wallahi I could not believe that some of the ppl i saw and the things i saw them doing, i just couldnt believe they were bengali. I realised that night how sheltered me and my children are from the outside world and how ignorant i am of certain things that are goin on in my community!:torture:
Raashid
30-01-08, 11:11 AM
It's not restricted to any particular ethnicity. Apparently these misyar marriages are gtting really popular in the Arab world. So it;s a social problem throughout the Muslim world.
imported_londoner
30-01-08, 11:15 AM
This trait is everywhere, its how you guard against it. Just take a look amongst the american-african muslim community in the US, its not suprising to find a man who have had several divorces, you will even find that the imam has had as many divorces. This is further perpetuated by men heading to Morocco to purchase second wives!!
No way, anything haram isn't allowed whether people are weak or not and no Muslim should even think of excusing it. My point is more about social attitudes amongst Muslims that make marriage (which is good) difficult, due to family nuances, economic factors etc. whereas fornicating (bad) is easier to fall into.
If you're Muslim, I want to know how you solve those issues, don't care about people who want to fornicate, I care about helping people who DON'T want to fornicate.
well again thats down to cultural attitudes at the moment we have a massive movement towards nationalisim going on with many born muslims, and again its because its what their parents want. many of these parents and their parents grew up under opressive regimes such as british colonialisim, and racisim breeds racisim many still call us "gori" even though we are muslims..seems to be some kind of shame to marry a black or a white person even if they are muslims.
The only way to solve this is to return people back to the deen and that will take a lot of education of the deen which many dont have time for because they are living in one room ,shared with maybe 3 or 4 other men, and they are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in the resturants for a measley £200 quid a week which they have to send back home ... and then theres the massive fee they have to pay to their bosses who bring them over and charge them for the visa to the uk. i know one brother who got sent to uk to work, and he wasnt paid a penny for 3 years as his boss claimed that his wages had to pay for his work permit...but what can we expect from people who love the dunya more than their deen. many today are muslim by name only. just as our prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said .... we will be many in number but most will be like the s.c.um on the tide...
you mean non practising muslim men,
I wish that was the case. Many practising muslims are also involved.
and what people need to understand is that the women of the people of the book, does not mean any woman who happens to be from a "christian" country. There are strict conditions, they need to be chaste women, who have never had a boyfreind, and who beleive in Allah u cannot just marry any woman who happens to say yea were christians or jews.
Many muslims don't hold this view. They believe there is differences of opinion on this matter.
The only way to solve this is to return people back to the deen and that will take a lot of education of the deen which many dont have time for because they are living in one room ,shared with maybe 3 or 4 other men, and they are working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in the resturants for a measley £200 quid a week which they have to send back home ...
This thread is not dedicated to bengalis and restaurant workers. The reality is that many practising muslims indulge in things far worse.
This is further perpetuated by men heading to Morocco to purchase second wives!!
Isn't second wives allowed?
Tahiyah
30-01-08, 11:26 AM
problem is marrying has become "difficult". during the time of the early muslims, it was much easier to marry after puberty or as young teens as you didnt have the same pressures you have today, paying for a home, you built your own back then, paying bills, education first so you can afford paying bills, etc. and for the males who could not afford marriage yet, well, it was easy for their fathers to give them slaves (right hands possess)
its how far we have come in dunya that is the problem. life in dunya today is much more demanding then life in dunya with the early, more successful muslims
problem is marrying has become "difficult".
its how far we have come in dunya that is the problem. life in dunya today is much more demanding then life in dunya with the early, more successful muslims
This is the problem! Muslims have made marriage the hardest thing to achieve. Therefore, there are those that will justify arranged marriages even though it may cause misery for everyone. On the other hand, there are those who want to marry western women because they are disgusted by their own culture. So if muslim men want to marry western women they should be encouraged to do so.
Many muslims don't hold this view. They believe there is differences of opinion on this matter.
no i believe they made their own opinions...
bring any difference of opinion that any kafira in the west is considered ahle kitab? most of these dont even believe in God let alone that its Isa!
This thread is not dedicated to bengalis and restaurant workers. The reality is that many practising muslims indulge in things far worse.
i can only speak about what i have personally witnessed and its a massive problem on my island, and being a very small island just 9 miles x 5 miles big. it makes it almost impossible to do dawa as a revert, because people dont beleive me when i tell them about Islam, they refer back to some "muslim" they know and start banging on about how i should be more like them and not a "fanatic" because now it seems just praying 5 times a day having a beard or wearing khimar and refusing to go to a bar, or shake hands with the opposite gender makes u a "fanatic" its just as the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said what means " there will come a time, when the liar is beleived, and the one who tells the truth is called a liar "
imported_londoner
30-01-08, 11:39 AM
Isn't second wives allowed?
Yes it is allowed provided you treat them equally, unfortunetly this is not the case, you see a pattern developing here, marry, divorce, marry, divorve, marry.....
The women in the third world often get cash in return as they are dirt poor and they are encouraged by thei parents. You also see this happening among saudis who leave their countries to go to foreign shores and initiate a 'marriage contract'.
All sunni ulemas (all 4 schools of thought) strongly discourage this type of behaviour.
imported_londoner
30-01-08, 11:41 AM
no i believe they made their own opinions...
bring any difference of opinion that any kafira in the west is considered ahle kitab? most of these dont even believe in God let alone that its Isa!
I agree, its down to individual unislamic opinons, all scholars are unanimous on this issue.
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 11:46 AM
The purpose of marriage isnt so, sex is a part of marriage yes, but it is not the only reason you get married by disregarding the value of a woman, your wife. SubhanAllah!
Why are some so backwards, the prophet (Saw) dealt with these issues how many years ago...We're going back to almost the pre islamic arabian times. It is clear in Quran and Sunnah, the example of what marriage should be like and why we marry and what we marry for etc.
Yes the nature of a man is different, this does not mean he marries for sex and gives no value to the woman...rather a woman is married for one of FOUR THINGS : DEEN, beauty, wealth and lineage. And in the Quran it says "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21)
''Oh mankind, be dutiful to your lord, who created you from a single person(Adam) He created his wife (Hawa), and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through whom you demand your mutual (rights)''
So you see marriage is a mithaaq between two which Allah has said that our spouses are mates that we should dwell in tranquility with. How ... We have examples from the sunnah and we have been told of the quran and sunnah of the rights and responsibilities.
"when a man marries, he has fulfilled half of his religion , so let him fear Allah regarding the remaining half."
The purpose of marriage isnt so, sex is a part of marriage yes, but it is not the only reason you get married by disregarding the value of a woman, your wife. SubhanAllah!
Why are some so backwards, the prophet (Saw) dealt with these issues how many years ago...We're going back to almost the pre islamic arabian times. It is clear in Quran and Sunnah, the example of what marriage should be like and why we marry and what we marry for etc.
Yes the nature of a man is different, this does not mean he marries for sex and gives no value to the woman...rather a woman is married for one of FOUR THINGS : DEEN, beauty, wealth and lineage. And in the Quran it says "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21)
''Oh mankind, be dutiful to your lord, who created you from a single person(Adam) He created his wife (Hawa), and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through whom you demand your mutual (rights)''
So you see marriage is a mithaaq between two which Allah has said that our spouses are mates that we should dwell in tranquility with. How ... We have examples from the sunnah and we have been told of the quran and sunnah of the rights and responsibilities.
"when a man marries, he has fulfilled half of his religion , so let him fear Allah regarding the remaining half."
sah ukhti :jkk: becautifully said, but many today also claim they can marry just to protect them selves from zinnah alone, they havent grasped the fact that there is so much more to marriage than this. the way i see it seems that some just see getting married as having a "legal girlfreind" when i got married my husband was so shocked that i expected him to provide for me, he was shocked that i didnt want to go out to work, he told me not to wear niqaab or a large khimar, he was horrified that i wanted to start a familly, he couldnt understand why i would be upset if he spent months "back home" leaving me alone with no money, and he was even more shocked as to why i would refuse to have an abortion if my husband asked me to, after all i was a " western woman " and an " ex-kaffir " apparently all that should have all been second nature to me as it was he claimed "my culture"
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 12:01 PM
sah ukhti :jkk: becautifully said, but many today also claim they can marry just to protect them selves from zinnah alone, they havent grasped the fact that there is so much more to marriage than this. the way i see it seems that some just see getting married as having a "legal girlfreind" when i got married my husband was so shocked that i expected him to provide for me, he was shocked that i didnt want to go out to work, he told me not to wear niqaab or a large khimar, he was horrified that i wanted to start a familly, he couldnt understand why i would be upset if he spent months "back home" leaving me alone with no money, and he was even more shocked as to why i would refuse to have an abortion if my husband asked me to, after all i was a " western woman " and an " ex-kaffir " apparently all that should have all been second nature to me as it was he claimed "my culture"
Well this is wrong but you know sister no matter how much the shuyookh try to emphasis the point and stress on the hadeeth where the prophet (saw) 'fear allah regarding women', it just wont get into some of the heads of the ignorant unfortunately ! But Allah WILL definately deal with everyone accordingly. Subhanallah how the priorties are wrong...Like some can say 'its me right to have a second wife' as its Allahs law, yet its just greed that they want another wife and not for the pleasure of seeking allahs reward because they arent even providing for their wives or praying their salah. SubhanAllah its sad! Marriage does not equal sex.
Raashid
30-01-08, 12:03 PM
That all sounds very nice from the sisters but it still ignores the simple fact that zina is haram and men are primarily concerned with sex, whether they are pious or not. If Muslim sisters want a house, financial taken care of etc. and since most Muslim men are financially at the bottom of the pile, is it not acceptable that they get their means by marrying a Christian who doesn't want all that, so at least he doesn't do a major haram?
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 12:28 PM
That all sounds very nice from the sisters but it still ignores the simple fact that zina is haram and men are primarily concerned with sex, whether they are pious or not. If Muslim sisters want a house, financial taken care of etc. and since most Muslim men are financially at the bottom of the pile, is it not acceptable that they get their means by marrying a Christian who doesn't want all that, so at least he doesn't do a major haram?
Its not about whether its from a sister or brother, Im saying what the prophet (saw) taught us and what it says in the Quran so if you want to argue that then feel free to do so in front Allah ! SubhanAllah !
As a brother you should not JUST be concerned with marrying for sex (neither should a sister). what is the matter with you !? Im not saying disregard it - there is the hadeeth which states that there is reward in intercourse with ones wife in the halal manner just as if committed illicitly there is punishment.
Brothers should make it their business to go out and provide for his wife and family. It is his responsibility, just as it is the womans responsibility to protect and guard the home and look after the children.
What are you trying to say brother that what Allah commands is too much!? aouthubillah. We strive and we try, our aim is jannah - think a bit further than just the sex brother. In a marriage there is love and a result of that is sex which has not been ignored in our deen. There are ahadeeth regarding it, but how can you be so ignorant to just think about sex and not think about what you want in a wife other than her in a bed ! SubhanAllah ! You will have bills to pay, clothes to provide, food to provide,to live up together to keeping kinship, to make ur wife happy, to fulfil desires equally, to make compromises, to spend quality time with what should be ur closes friend inshallah, to bring up ur children together successfully and to try together to help one another learn about their deen and to get closer to Allah (through everything u do and learn)...In marrying, one should think about their potential spouses deen, as it is them they will be with who will remind them of allah and bring up their children in a good manner and then there beauty, so that when u look at ur spouse you feel attracted towards them etc. Our deen hasn't left anything out brother ! Alhamdulilah !
Just because one has a sexual desire does not mean that you disregard your duties and dont take the advise of the prophet, the prophet said fast if you are not able to married as a means to help control that desire and fear of allah should rebel thoughts of committing haram inshallah. And marriage is a means of fulfilling that desire lawfully however with marriage comes many other things than just that !
That all sounds very nice from the sisters but it still ignores the simple fact that zina is haram and men are primarily concerned with sex, whether they are pious or not. If Muslim sisters want a house, financial taken care of etc. and since most Muslim men are financially at the bottom of the pile, is it not acceptable that they get their means by marrying a Christian who doesn't want all that, so at least he doesn't do a major haram?
Your premise is wrong. Men, primarily, aren't just concerned with sex. If that were the case, amongst the unreligious, you would see a rapid decline, even in the later years of life, in the number of long term relationships. People would just move on to the next best thing, or visit prostitutes.
We see that that isn't the case, amongst the majority. Even amongst the rabidly unreligious, the 'immoral', if you like, people value long term relationships, even marriage. Why would that be if it was just for sex? There must be something else that keeps men, and women, in the loop.
That all sounds very nice from the sisters but it still ignores the simple fact that zina is haram and men are primarily concerned with sex, whether they are pious or not. If Muslim sisters want a house, financial taken care of etc. and since most Muslim men are financially at the bottom of the pile, is it not acceptable that they get their means by marrying a Christian who doesn't want all that, so at least he doesn't do a major haram?
no its not acceptable, men can only marry if they can afford it. Allah ta ala is the one who commanded men in the Quran to be "the maintainers and protectors of women" if they cannot fulfil their obligations to a wife, then they cannot marry,and these men should love Allah ta ala and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam more than they love sex and women.
From the Prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam last sermon...O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers...
The Noble Qur'an - Ar-Rum 30:21
And from among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.
The Noble Qur'an - Al-A'raf 7:189
It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife (Eve), in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her. ...
Hadith - Bukhari 7:127
Allah's Apostle said, "O 'Abdullah! Have I not been formed that you fast all the day and stand in prayer all night?" I said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Do not do that! Observe the fast sometimes and also leave them (the fast) at other times; stand up for the prayer at night and also sleep at night. Your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you and your wife has a right over you."
Hadith - Muslim, #3233
'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger said to us: O young men, those among you who can support a wife should marry, for it restrains eyes (from casting evil glances) and preserves one from immorality; but he who cannot afford it should observe fast, for it is a means of controlling the sexual desire.
The Noble Qur'an - An-Nur 24:33
And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah enriches them of His Bounty. ...
Hadith - Bukhari 3:129, Narrated 'Alqama
While I was walking with 'Abdullah he said, "We were in the company of the Prophet and he said, 'He who can afford to marry should marry, because it will help him refrain from looking at other women, and save his private parts from committing illegal sexual relation; and he who cannot afford to marry is advised to fast, as fasting will diminish his sexual power.' "
a non muslim woman has exactly the same rights as a muslim woman does in marriage, there is no difference at all, and using a christian or jewish woman is not permissible at all and its a shame upon this ummah that any man would think of doing such a thing, wallahi if `umar ibn al khattab or our prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam were here today to see what is going on with these so called "muslims" there would be severe repercussions for the fitnah, and corruption they spread in this earth.
no its not acceptable, men can only marry if they can afford it.
I think you are missing the point. No one denies that fact that with marriage comes rights and responsibilities. The fact remains, that Muslim sisters demand too much knowing full well the reality! You talk about loving allah and his rasul more than sex and women. What about from the brothers perspective in terms of sisters loving allah and his rasul more than the material things that you demand?
if `umar ibn al khattab or our prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam were here today to see what is going on with these so called "muslims" there would be severe repercussions for the fitnah, and corruption they spread in this earth.
That's right there would be severe repercussions and not just because what these men are doing but also because what sisters are doing.
Like some can say 'its me right to have a second wife' as its Allahs law, yet its just greed that they want another wife...
What has it got to do with greed? You are trying to defend all your points on the basis that such as person does some haram actions. Therefore, you want to deprive him of Allahs law
I think you are missing the point. No one denies that fact that with marriage comes rights and responsibilities. The fact remains, that Muslim sisters demand too much knowing full well the reality! You talk about loving allah and his rasul more than sex and women. What about from the brothers perspective in terms of sisters loving allah and his rasul more than the material things that you demand?
That's right there would be severe repercussions and not just because what these men are doing but also because what sisters are doing.
the "material things" we demand? what like a roof over our heads, where do u expect married people to live? food ? electricity ? water ? clothing ? you call that an extravegance? i had a financial mahr of learning arabic is that greed? brother i wasnt even at my wedding because my husband couldnt afford to travel to me to marry my walli married me to him in england, and i didnt even have a new dress to wear on my wedding day and i spent it alone, nor did i have a wallima because my husband was so poor ... la howla wala qawata illah billah ....the only ones who are demanding over the odds are the ones with cultural traditions ...
That all sounds very nice from the sisters but it still ignores the simple fact that zina is haram and men are primarily concerned with sex, whether they are pious or not. If Muslim sisters want a house, financial taken care of etc. and since most Muslim men are financially at the bottom of the pile, is it not acceptable that they get their means by marrying a Christian who doesn't want all that, so at least he doesn't do a major haram?
You just want the green light to marry western women (white women)! Why is it that Muslim men love white women so much?
the "material things" we demand? what like a roof over our heads, where do u expect married people to live? food ? electricity ? water ? clothing ? you call that an extravegance? i had a financial mahr of learning arabic is that greed? brother i wasnt even at my wedding because my husband couldnt afford to travel to me to marry my walli married me to him in england, and i didnt even have a new dress to wear on my wedding day and i spent it alone, nor did i have a wallima because my husband was so poor ... la howla wala qawata illah billah ....the only ones who are demanding over the odds are the ones with cultural traditions ...
If this is the case then what did you mean by
no its not acceptable, men can only marry if they can afford it
in reference to sisters wanting a house, etc
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:25 PM
Your premise is wrong. Men, primarily, aren't just concerned with sex. If that were the case, amongst the unreligious, you would see a rapid decline, even in the later years of life, in the number of long term relationships. People would just move on to the next best thing, or visit prostitutes.
We see that that isn't the case, amongst the majority. Even amongst the rabidly unreligious, the 'immoral', if you like, people value long term relationships, even marriage. Why would that be if it was just for sex? There must be something else that keeps men, and women, in the loop.
I agree that it's not the pnly thing but it is the primary urge a man has in regards to their relations with women.
naima27
30-01-08, 02:29 PM
I've heard other men stretch the halal definitions to breaking point: some Algerian men have casual sex with Western women claiming that this is Dar ul-Harb so the women are concubines
true it wouldnt be the first time i have heard someone say this, and i heard it from ignorant men, some of the north africans especially also have the idea that this applies even to muslimahs. I have heard several say ( like my ex-husband) that you can use a revert muslim woman ( because shes not a "real" muslimah shes not from a muslim familly ) so they say that u can marry her for the passport, use her for sex and financial provision, they send her out to work and make her provide for the home, while hes at uni getting his fat p.h.d because shes not considered as his "real" wife ( they say how can a white western woman be a "real" muslim wife ) its just a stop gap for the next 10-20 years to make a fortune return home and marry a "real wife" ie: someone from their own country and nationality, leaving behind the wife and children that they had here. Just seen a woman going through this now, she had no clue her husband was building a block of apartments in his home land for his new wife and his familly, and after 19 years of marriage 2 kids and 3 abortions he forced her to have he left her and the kids and went back home which was always his plan once he had made his millions here, problem was he never told his wife about his little scheme.
[/quote]
Wow.. this is truly sad. I wonder if this is a common practice in North Africa since I know someone :rolleyes: who has fallen for this same scheme.
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:31 PM
no its not acceptable, men can only marry if they can afford it. Allah ta ala is the one who commanded men in the Quran to be "the maintainers and protectors of women" if they cannot fulfil their obligations to a wife, then they cannot marry,and these men should love Allah ta ala and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam more than they love sex and women.
So what about the hadith that says marriage become fard if you fear falling into zina. In a country like Saudi Arabia it's not likely but what about in this society it is easy to fall into the temptation of zina, if not actual then the lesser, like zina of the eyes etc. Which hadith hadith takes precedent in this reality?
a non muslim woman has exactly the same rights as a muslim woman does in marriage, there is no difference at all, and using a christian or jewish woman is not permissible at all and its a shame upon this ummah that any man would think of doing such a thing, wallahi if `umar ibn al khattab or our prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam were here today to see what is going on with these so called "muslims" there would be severe repercussions for the fitnah, and corruption they spread in this earth.
Yes but just because you have a right it doesn't mean you have to demand it. So a Christian woman in this society doesn't demand a man gives her a house, dowry which is 3x his salary, doesn't have parents who have to approve the man etc.
If marrying a Christian is halal, why would Muhammad (salAllahu alleyhi wa salam ) be concerned about it?
muhammed_1428
30-01-08, 02:36 PM
This is basically jawaaz al mut'a (Temporary marriage) isn't it?
This is haraam, there was once a time when it was allowed for reasons I won't go into here - but whats for certain is that it is haraam, end of.
The extent of the corruption that revolves around mut'a being misconstrude as somehow halal is unbelievable - there are literally brothels in the middle-east and areas in south asia - where apparently you go in, "get married" for the next 2/3 days, and off you go...
Its really very bad - and Insha'allah with the help of both Sunni and Shi'a will be outlawed very soon, the only problem is that there are certain political people (although these are only rumours) are doing it all the time and even endorsing it... May Allah guide them, Ameen.
I agree that it's not the pnly thing but it is the primary urge a man has in regards to their relations with women.
How many people would get married if they can't satisfy their primary urge? why get married in the first place?
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:46 PM
You just want the green light to marry western women (white women)! Why is it that Muslim men love white women so much?
Because they're the best in terms of what men want. Put it this way, the Barbary pirates used to go as far north a Iceland to capture concubines (which incidentally I believe is haram)! They never went to Bangaldesh for women :D
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:52 PM
the "material things" we demand? what like a roof over our heads, where do u expect married people to live? food ? electricity ? water ? clothing ? you call that an extravegance? i had a financial mahr of learning arabic is that greed? brother i wasnt even at my wedding because my husband couldnt afford to travel to me to marry my walli married me to him in england, and i didnt even have a new dress to wear on my wedding day and i spent it alone, nor did i have a wallima because my husband was so poor ... la howla wala qawata illah billah ....the only ones who are demanding over the odds are the ones with cultural traditions ...
MaashAllah sis, it would be good if the majority of sister's were like you, but unfortunately the majority of Muslims fit into the latter category.
Also, I think a lot of Muslims don't like to admit the harsh truth: that they're only getting married to please family and there isn't no real bond or desire between husband and wofe, so that's why they demand all these other things. I mean, if you're going to be stuck in a hole for the rest of your life, you'd want it to be the most comfortable hole it can be...
Because they're the best in terms of what men want. Put it this way, the Barbary pirates used to go as far north a Iceland to capture concubines (which incidentally I believe is haram)! They never went to Bangaldesh for women :D
Whereas the rest of the folk went after the exotic beauties of the Mediterranean and Arabia.
Still others considered the Chinese as exquisite.
And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
What's your point?
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:55 PM
This is basically jawaaz al mut'a (Temporary marriage) isn't it?
This is haraam, there was once a time when it was allowed for reasons I won't go into here - but whats for certain is that it is haraam, end of.
The extent of the corruption that revolves around mut'a being misconstrude as somehow halal is unbelievable - there are literally brothels in the middle-east and areas in south asia - where apparently you go in, "get married" for the next 2/3 days, and off you go...
Its really very bad - and Insha'allah with the help of both Sunni and Shi'a will be outlawed very soon, the only problem is that there are certain political people (although these are only rumours) are doing it all the time and even endorsing it... May Allah guide them, Ameen.
I agree, but as my intial post said, Muslims can't develop a practical way of making the halal easy, so you get all sorts of deviancy being justified in its place. If simply telling people something is haraam, deviancy etc. doesn't stop them doing it, you have to find solutions which no Muslims are forthcoming with.
Raashid
30-01-08, 02:57 PM
Whereas the rest of the folk went after the exotic beauties of the Mediterranean and Arabia.
Still others considered the Chinese as exquisite.
And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
What's your point?
Did they, I've never heard of anyone else prizing females from anywhere except Europe! I have no point, I was simply answering the brothers question.
Did they, I've never heard of anyone else prizing females from anywhere except Europe! I have no point, I was simply answering the brothers question.
well, the Europeans for a start.
And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
Rubbish!
Who would want to go to that dump.
And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
When you say "most" you mean indian subcontinent. Most of the world looks to these as backward and uncivilised
Rubbish!
Who would want to go to that dump.
When you say "most" you mean indian subcontinent. Most of the world looks to these as backward and uncivilised
Well, either you're dense, or just trying very hard, and succeeding spectacularly in looking dense.
I don't believe there is any consensus, and I don't believe there can be any consensus on which race is the most beautiful. None of them are. Beauty is down to individuals.
What he was referring to was people capturing women as prized beauties, for sex, I guess. You don't have to go and live in that dump to think that their women are pretty.
Well, either you're dense, or just trying very hard, and succeeding spectacularly in looking dense.
I don't believe there is any consensus, and I don't believe there can be any consensus on which race is the most beautiful. None of them are. Beauty is down to individuals.
What he was referring to was people capturing women as prized beauties, for sex, I guess. You don't have to go and live in that dump to think that their women are pretty.
You must either think you are really clever or trying to be something that you clearly are not by making absurd statements such as "And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
Two minutes later you state: “I don't believe there can be any consensus on which race is the most beautiful. None of them are.” You a little confused or half-witted!
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 03:50 PM
What has it got to do with greed? You are trying to defend all your points on the basis that such as person does some haram actions. Therefore, you want to deprive him of Allahs law
You did not finish my sentence in ur quote. I was referring to men who are not fulfiling their responsibilities to his first wife. He should fear Allah lest he marry another wife and he doesn't do as Allah says. I was talking about priorities. Priority is not sex brother !!
And sisters who fear Allah knows that material things are temporary and that our aim is the hereafter and thus would be understanding and not ask for things in extravagance, but women, as men, still have their rights and responsiboility. This doesn't deny her the right of being housed by her husband and provided for etc etc.
It seems as though some brothers give no value or respect to women. SubhanAllah.
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 03:56 PM
So what about the hadith that says marriage become fard if you fear falling into zina. In a country like Saudi Arabia it's not likely but what about in this society it is easy to fall into the temptation of zina, if not actual then the lesser, like zina of the eyes etc. Which hadith hadith takes precedent in this reality?
Yes but just because you have a right it doesn't mean you have to demand it. So a Christian woman in this society doesn't demand a man gives her a house, dowry which is 3x his salary, doesn't have parents who have to approve the man etc.
If marrying a Christian is halal, why would Muhammad (salAllahu alleyhi wa salam ) be concerned about it?
Im sorry but you're terrible ! how can u say that. The rights are what Allah ordained for us to have successful marriages in order to please our lord.
You totally are missing the point. I know what it is... you all are just thinking about immediate sex, not at all about Allah and wanting jannah ! astaghfirallah !
The prophet (Saw) said the best thing in this world is to be married to a pious woman... wouldn't you want to try to be like the prophet as a muslim !? you know, try to look for a wife who is on the deen and pious, live according to the sunnah, give her her rights and you know inshallah that she'll give you yours - Tawqa, fear of Allah !
MaashAllah sis, it would be good if the majority of sister's were like you, but unfortunately the majority of Muslims fit into the latter category.
Also, I think a lot of Muslims don't like to admit the harsh truth: that they're only getting married to please family and there isn't no real bond or desire between husband and wofe, so that's why they demand all these other things. I mean, if you're going to be stuck in a hole for the rest of your life, you'd want it to be the most comfortable hole it can be...
I dont know where abouts your from but perhaps you are looking at example of cultured married. In Islam our culture should be the ISLAM.
This is childish. your saying because of how some women are and ones urge for a desire, that you would instead of comit haram want to marry just for the sex and then what ? have a lady labelled undignified - no its doesnt go like that ! FEAR ALLAH ! doesnt the fear of allah scare u and make u think twice ?
Mutah is haram !
I was referring to men who are not fulfiling their responsibilities to his first wife. He should fear Allah lest he marry another wife and he doesn't do as Allah says...
In that case you have a valid point. I have heard about brothers having a second wife in another country and they do not give the same respect or rights to both of them. Instead of fulfilling their responsibilities to their first wife, they get married again. Thereby making matters worse.
You must either think you are really clever or trying to be something that you clearly are not by making absurd statements such as "
Two minutes later you state: “I don't believe there can be any consensus on which race is the most beautiful. None of them are.” You a little confused or half-witted!
mfr, pay attention to what I wrote.
And most of the world considers the beauties from the Indian sub continent.
That sentence doesn't imply that people from the Indian sub-continent are beautiful, and it doesn't imply that people consider those from the Indian sub-continent to be beautiful.
I dunno what they teach you in schools these days, but they obviously seem to be skipping basic comprehension skills.
Nothing in that sentence contradicts anything in this one:
I don't believe there can be any consensus on which race is the most beautiful. None of them are.
Im sorry but you're terrible ! how can u say that. The rights are what Allah ordained for us to have successful marriages in order to please our lord.
You are not entirely correct. Marriage is not just about getting your rights. The husband doesn't say to his wife that he demands something because it is his right and vice versa. Imagine every single day husband and wife fighting because they want their "rights". There will be no love or tranquility in the marriage.
muslimbrother11
30-01-08, 04:12 PM
You are totally wrong. Marriage is not just about getting your rights. The husband doesn't say to his wife that he demands something because it is his right and vice versa. Imagine every single day husband and wife fighting because they want their "rights". There will be no love or tranquility in the marriage.
This is what is happaning among many asian families
This is what is happaning among many asian families
That's due to arranged marriages and family/cultural pressure
This is childish. your saying because of how some women are and ones urge for a desire, that you would instead of comit haram want to marry just for the sex and then what ?
Why is it childish? Many people get married due to family and cultural pressures. They don't do it due to fear of committing haram.
I guess this brother is implying that it's better to get married for sex than to commit zina. So if people get married just to please their parents/community why can't he do it to prevent zina?
You are not entirely correct. Marriage is not just about getting your rights. The husband doesn't say to his wife that he demands something because it is his right and vice versa. Imagine every single day husband and wife fighting because they want their "rights". There will be no love or tranquility in the marriage.
no brother or sister should have to ask for their rights that were given to them by Allah , muslims should fear Allah enough to fullfil the rights of the other without anyone reminding them of their duties and responsabilities before Allah subhanna wa ta ala.
muslimbrother11
30-01-08, 05:12 PM
That's due to arranged marriages and family/cultural pressure
I agree with you :up:
Metroid
30-01-08, 05:21 PM
and let's be honest it's so much easier because she's not going to need her dad's permission, a dowry and a house as she's probably already got one and isn't from a culture that requires such.
I do not agree with the dowry stuff. But I do agree that a muslim wedding is much more difficult and more involved than marrying a non Muslim. The problem is also due to cultural additions to the muslim wedding such as in Pak and other muslin countries. Even in the West, Muslim do the wedding the traditionally complicated ways while it was supposed to be simple.
Getting married usually means jumping through hoops. Muslims are generally the worst of economically so the men can't usually provide the means that a woman wants in marriage.
This is also the difference between non muslims and muslims. It is still easier for a non financially capable Muslim man to marry a non Muslim western woman for instance. Non muslim get married in since high school and mostly in college even tho they don't obviously have the financial means as student.
when it's obvious most Muslims are far too weak in character to have that sort of patience?
Any thoughts, from sisters as well as brothers?
being a muslim does not prevent you from all types of zinah. That's why being married is highly recommended.
muslimbrother11
30-01-08, 05:28 PM
Most muslim students have SEX in collage there parents dont know about it think about this
sis_niqabi
30-01-08, 05:43 PM
Salam
getting married to control one's desire is halal. but a muslim should look at other things other than sex. perhaps this is one of the causes of so many muslim divorced nowadays. we live in a society that is addicted to sex. we see it in the newspaper on the tv and on the streets. so no wonder so many muslims are overly obsessed with it and think that sex=love.
at the beginning of marriage satisfying one's desire is probably all a man and woman will think about it. but after a while they'll start to see that person's personality. and one's personailty can have a huge effect on one's intimate relations with their husband/wife.
so sex shouldn't be the only thing to consider for a marriage
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 05:48 PM
Most muslim students have SEX in collage there parents dont know about it think about this
Most? I have never seen that happen nor got offered to do that while in college. If you see someone doing this then it is your duty to inform them of the great sin they are committing and that they should repent and never do it again.
Getting married shouldn't only be about sex, because if a guy gets married for that they are in for a rude awakening. Once the wife is pregnant what is he going to do? What about when she's on her period or after she gives birth? He'll also have to take care of her financially, physically and emotionally. He'll have to be responsible about what he does.
People need to get sex out of their heads, yes it's a natural thing and many people do it. But you should first find a wife who is compatible for you. Then you can have sex with her and it will be halal.
If the guy has too much sexual desire and isn't married then he should just learn more about Islam. Then make du'a that he finds a wife who is religious and beautiful and whatever.
sis_niqabi
30-01-08, 05:56 PM
Getting married shouldn't only be about sex, because if a guy gets married for that they are in for a rude awakening. Once the wife is pregnant what is he going to do? What about when she's on her period or after she gives birth? He'll also have to take care of her financially, physically and emotionally. He'll have to be responsible about what he does.
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 06:01 PM
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
This is why they should study the deen more instead of reading vogue magazine or GQ. If they followed the deen, then they would understand how to treat their wives. If they followed the sunnah of the Prophet :saw: they'd know how to treat their wives and love them. The Prophet :saw: never cursed out his wives, never threaten to divorce them, never hit them. If they got bigger he still loved them.
Subhanallah if the men were more like the Prophet :saw: then the Muslim ummah wouldn't be the way it is now.
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
That's not true sis, not for most men anyway.
shamson
30-01-08, 06:06 PM
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
Damn right sista lolzzz
here in yemen polygamy is a big thing4 the westerners (mostly among the americans for some reason) and yes my hubby jumped on the bandwagon and was going on about it:torture:
But after I spoke to sisters who were either first wives with new co-wives or co-wives who are second best to their hubby's first wife etc. I realised wow it aint easy itz REALLY HARD both emotional and physically. So mashAllah I took it upon myself bring light of these problems to my hubby so that he can see that itz not all about having another wife, another woman to sleep with etc. there is a lot more in this package deal then meets the eye. it really depressed my hubby and put him off actually wanting to get married again....Ooops
shamson
30-01-08, 06:13 PM
This is why they should study the deen more instead of reading vogue magazine or GQ. If they followed the deen, then they would understand how to treat their wives. If they followed the sunnah of the Prophet :saw: they'd know how to treat their wives and love them. The Prophet :saw: never cursed out his wives, never threaten to divorce them, never hit them. If they got bigger he still loved them.
Subhanallah if the men were more like the Prophet :saw: then the Muslim ummah wouldn't be the way it is now.
yes but islam also encourages us to beautify ourselves for our hubbies, including looking good, dressing nice, putting a bit of lippy and perfume on etc. I know most of us dont have time for this but alhumdolilla we make an effort on top of everything else we have to do even though our hubbies:inlove: may help out it is mainly us...
1. cooking
2. clean baby's bum
3. feed all our children
4. do the washing up
5. hang the washing up
6. educate ourselves (deen or other)
7. educate our children
8. InshAllah pray 5 times a day
9. deal with bickering siblings
10. bathe our children
11. vaccum the house
12. put the kids to bed
13. see to the children when they cry at night
14. look after them when they are unwell, coughing, vomitting, pooing all over the place etc.
any other sisters wana add to the list?:rolleyes:
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 06:17 PM
You are not entirely correct. Marriage is not just about getting your rights. The husband doesn't say to his wife that he demands something because it is his right and vice versa. Imagine every single day husband and wife fighting because they want their "rights". There will be no love or tranquility in the marriage.
I am 1000% correct that the rights and responsibilities allah gives are a guidance for us. Islam IS a way of life !
Why is it childish? Many people get married due to family and cultural pressures. They don't do it due to fear of committing haram.
I guess this brother is implying that it's better to get married for sex than to commit zina. So if people get married just to please their parents/community why can't he do it to prevent zina?
Its childish because how are you fearing Allah ? How are you trying and striving in the path of Allah ?
My point is dont just get married for sex ONLY ! Its simple - marriage is a mithaaq between two, not a sex contract. Its a relationship you share with a spouse for the rest of your life both trying to please Allah !
back up what ur saying with quran and sunnah because we are not just discussing on the basis of nothing...We should refer to our deen !
Well, I feel you think I'm as a man just after my desires! not fair! :(
If you'd read the beginning of the thread, it was actually a fellow man of yours who claimed that men were only interested in sex, and carried on defending that idea...
even though it's patently wrong.
muslim_sis
30-01-08, 06:27 PM
What's that, sis? Why do you attack men like that? How do you know they only look for desires? Are men bad and women ok in your opinion?
What do you mean they're not the same size? :confused:
And excuse me a woman who doesn't cook a nice dinner for the lame excuse you gave (having children to care for) is not good enough!
And what's with the magazines? Aren't the couples already married and satisfied with each others before marriage? Or are you talking about before marriage situations?
Well, I feel you think I'm as a man just after my desires! not fair! :(
Hey you and the sis are both wrong ... if a wife cooks a meal that isn't so nice, shes human, shes not perfect and u are not in jannah. At least she cooked for you in such a situation !
and though the nature of men and women are different in regards to a few things, it does not mean that there arent men who do want to spend their life with someone special, fulfilling their desires in a halal way and fulfulling their rights and responsibilities and being a good husband.
Saudi Prince
30-01-08, 06:33 PM
Hey you and the sis are both wrong ...
Ooops sorry we both git it wrong. ;) :)
if a wife cooks a meal that isn't so nice, shes human, shes not perfect and u are not in jannah. At least she cooked for you in such a situation !
Come on! We men don't mind this 1,2,3,4,5, or 10 times but not all the time please using the same lame excuse. :)
and though the nature of men and women are different in regards to a few things, it does not mean that there arent men who do want to spend their life with someone special, fulfilling their desires in a halal way and fulfulling their rights and responsibilities and being a good husband.
I agree and this is true for women too.
A friend of a friend of mine got his life turned to hell after he got married! and the reason was his wife! :rolleyes:
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:39 PM
I dont know where abouts your from but perhaps you are looking at example of cultured married. In Islam our culture should be the ISLAM.
This is childish. your saying because of how some women are and ones urge for a desire, that you would instead of comit haram want to marry just for the sex and then what ? have a lady labelled undignified - no its doesnt go like that ! FEAR ALLAH ! doesnt the fear of allah scare u and make u think twice ?
Mutah is haram !
Firstly, I'm not talking about myself but Muslim men in general as this is the reality I have seen as I stated in my first post.
The issue of culture is beside the point, if that's the culture Muslims are stuck in, they can't get away from it, since family will always have control of the daughters so the difficulty in marriage will always be there.
As for saying it's only some women, well maybe or not, but I would say the majority of Muslim families are like that, that's why Misyar has become more popular in the Mid East and Muslim men in the West marry Christians.
As for fearing Allah - surely a man who marries for sex, rather then be tempted by zina, is marrying for the sake of Allah - so he doesn't do what Allah has forbidden?
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 06:40 PM
Come on! We men don't mind this 1,2,3,4,5, or 10 times but not all the time please using the same lame excuse. :)
That's the key to patience. Just make du'a and send your wife to cooking classes, or ask her mom to help her. Find a solution to the problem if it keeps happening.
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:42 PM
Why is it childish? Many people get married due to family and cultural pressures. They don't do it due to fear of committing haram.
I guess this brother is implying that it's better to get married for sex than to commit zina. So if people get married just to please their parents/community why can't he do it to prevent zina?
Hear hear, you understand perfectly. Most Muslims do get married just out of family pressure not, to fulfill half their deen. So surely marrying so you don't commit zina is preferable.
I think all the sisters are outraged by this idea because Muslim sisters unfortunately are totally prudish about sex and have no sexuality. It's due to Muslims upbringing that sex is shameful etc. that they can't comprehend why men are driven by the sexual instinct.
Saudi Prince
30-01-08, 06:43 PM
If you'd read the beginning of the thread, it was actually a fellow man of yours who claimed that men were only interested in sex, and carried on defending that idea...
even though it's patently wrong.
Joha, am I allowed to disagree with them both? ;)
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 06:44 PM
Hear hear, you understand perfectly. Most Muslims do get married just out of family pressure not, to fulfill half their deen. So surely marrying so you don't commit zina is preferable.
I think all the sisters are outraged by this idea because Muslim sisters unfortunately are totally prudish about sex and have no sexuality. It's due to Muslims upbringing that sex is shameful etc. that they can't comprehend why men are driven by the sexual instinct.
Have you heard of Dr. Heba Kotb? Women have desires too, Allah wouldn't damn us with having no sexuality. It's just the fact that women are better at controlling it then men. Sex isn't shameful, I think women, including myself, get angry at people marrying just for sex, because marriage is a huge responsibility. If you marry for sex the marriage won't last, therefore go learn about Islam then get married once you realize what it is about.
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:45 PM
Salam
getting married to control one's desire is halal. but a muslim should look at other things other than sex. perhaps this is one of the causes of so many muslim divorced nowadays. we live in a society that is addicted to sex. we see it in the newspaper on the tv and on the streets. so no wonder so many muslims are overly obsessed with it and think that sex=love.
at the beginning of marriage satisfying one's desire is probably all a man and woman will think about it. but after a while they'll start to see that person's personality. and one's personailty can have a huge effect on one's intimate relations with their husband/wife.
so sex shouldn't be the only thing to consider for a marriage
That's all very well a woman saying that, but men can't change their nature.
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:46 PM
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
The trouble is, even normal Western women do look like those women!
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:48 PM
You are not entirely correct. Marriage is not just about getting your rights. The husband doesn't say to his wife that he demands something because it is his right and vice versa. Imagine every single day husband and wife fighting because they want their "rights". There will be no love or tranquility in the marriage.
From what I've seen there is no love in the Muslim marriages generally as they just got married to please family. They don't fancy each other, get along or anything, it's just show for the community.
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:49 PM
Joha, am I allowed to disagree with them both? ;)
Salaams Prince, nice to meet you again (we last met on the MPAC forum).
Now prince, you're from a conservative male dominated society. Pleeeeease don't go all soft here and start agreeing with the women by denying the nature of man!
Raashid
30-01-08, 06:50 PM
If you'd read the beginning of the thread, it was actually a fellow man of yours who claimed that men were only interested in sex, and carried on defending that idea...
even though it's patently wrong.
You've obviously never met a man other then your father or brothers then lol!
.: Anna :.
30-01-08, 06:54 PM
This is a really weird thread. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here :scratch: I find it quite strange how you claim that sunnis probably wish mutah is halal, considering how much people actually use that to insult shias by calling them like they are in prostitution etc.
Also I think your impression is wrong because those who want to get married purely because they want to have sex are very few. Most people they are actually interested in having companionship and a proper relationship with their spouse than just how you are saying.
Its true there are some people who want to marry or be with western (meaning non muslim) women, and u claim this is common within the practising brothers aswel, but actually it is not - bc the practising ones when u find what they are looking for in a wife, it is a girl that is religious and cares about her deen. okay they probably want pretty aswell, but i have not seen anyone of them that seem to be looking for whoever they can get the "cheapest" or "easiest" for the purpose u mentioned, this is a very dellusional and quite sickening view.
arranged marriages with people that they do not like, that is a social problem found in some parts of the community but not something which is particularly good in Islam, so i dont see that it is so relevant. This is something where people need to be educated about Islam rather than culture.
To say that we should do things according to quran and sunnah is not a "fairy claim" :rolleyes: as you have said. What kind of a Muslim would try to say that? We have got a solution for young people commiting zina, and we have got a solution for people when they have those desires.. and that is called getting married, it is not something difficult. So there is no need to come up with all these other ideas like mutah or whatever to try and get around it in a different way. Just get married, Islam does not make marriage difficult. Sometimes culture makes it difficult for the young people, but again if people are educated to return to Quran and sunnah that would be eradicated.
Then within the marriage, they fulfil their desires in a Halal way, aswell as fulfiling all their responsibilities to each other and having a proper married relationship (not just to do the marriage contract as an excuse to have sex because that is totally stupid.)
You are making a big problem and issue where there is no need for one.
Bubblegoose
30-01-08, 07:05 PM
What is Mutah?
Raashid
30-01-08, 07:08 PM
This is a really weird thread. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here :scratch: I find it quite strange how you claim that sunnis probably wish mutah is halal, considering how much people actually use that to insult shias by calling them like they are in prostitution etc..
I was making a man joke there, besides Sunnis have brought about Misyar which isn't too far away from Muta which suggests to me they would like it.
Also I think your impression is wrong because those who want to get married purely because they want to have sex are very few. Most people they are actually interested in having companionship and a proper relationship with their spouse than just how you are saying..
Spoken like a true woman. No man is going to openly admit that to women.
Men speak a very different tune when no women are around.
Its true there are some people who want to marry or be with western (meaning non muslim) women, and u claim this is common within the practising brothers aswel, but actually it is not - bc the practising ones when u find what they are looking for in a wife, it is a girl that is religious and cares about her deen. okay they probably want pretty aswell, but i have not seen anyone of them that seem to be looking for whoever they can get the "cheapest" or "easiest" for the purpose u mentioned, this is a very dellusional and quite sickening view. .
Wanting something and actually doing it is a different matter, most practicing Muslims wouldn't because they can't because of social pressures not because they don't want to. I see it as a fact in pratcing brothers as well.
To say that we should do things according to quran and sunnah is not a "fairy claim" :rolleyes: as you have said. What kind of a Muslim would try to say that? We have got a solution for young people commiting zina, and we have got a solution for people when they have those desires.. and that is called getting married, it is not something difficult. So there is no need to come up with all these other ideas like mutah or whatever to try and get around it in a different way. Just get married, Islam does not make marriage difficult. Sometimes culture makes it difficult for the young people, but again if people are educated to return to Quran and sunnah that would be eradicated.
Then within the marriage, they fulfil their desires in a Halal way, aswell as fulfiling all their responsibilities to each other and having a proper married relationship (not just to do the marriage contract as an excuse to have sex because that is totally stupid.)
You are making a big problem and issue where there is no need for one.
I'm not making the problem, it exists. I never claimed Islam was any problem, I was saying Muslims are. And since we're stuck with the culture we're in we have the problem.
If it was so easy to get married then there wouldn't be the problem in getting married, zina, marrying Christians etc.
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 07:10 PM
What is Mutah?
temporary marriage
Bubblegoose
30-01-08, 07:16 PM
temporary marriage
Ah right, hmm.
So basically marriage to fulfill carnal or green card desires?
It is normal for a man to have sexual desires. If something other than that, then theres something wrong with him.
Then comes the deeper stuff. I really don't understand the whole point of this thread.
.: Anna :.
30-01-08, 07:22 PM
how many people actually do misyar? its not really common...
okay about the practising brothers if you claim that they do want to have sex, but they don't (until they get married) what is the problem. noone is taken to account for something because they were tempted by it, but they had sabr and restrained themselves. that kind of desire is a factor when wanting to get married, its not the whole thing obviously, but if a brother got married and he does not have any of that, then that is a problem aswell.
ukhti men nowadays don't even think beyond their own desires. this is why so many men are so quick to threating their wives with divorce because they are not the same size(due to having his babies) they were when he married her. or men get upset when the wife doesn't make fancy dinners for him anymore because she's got kids to take care of now.
but honestly i blame the society. men expect their wives to look like the women in vogue magazine.
err... huge generalization maybe? your post is just asking for the brothers to start bashing women because of the actions of just a few :o but they dont cuz theyre cool and they know better than that alhamdulillah :D
there are good and bad ppl in both genders :coolsis: :coolbro:
This is a really weird thread. I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make here :scratch: I find it quite strange how you claim that sunnis probably wish mutah is halal, considering how much people actually use that to insult shias by calling them like they are in prostitution etc.
sounds familiar :p
Muhammad2
30-01-08, 07:34 PM
This "roof over their heads" thing...
1: Does it actually have to be a roof as such? I mean, would a ceiling be okay?
2: Is it necessary for the man to actually own the deeds of the dwelling in question, or can it be rented?
Saudi Prince
30-01-08, 07:36 PM
Salaams Prince, nice to meet you again (we last met on the MPAC forum).
Now prince, you're from a conservative male dominated society. Pleeeeease don't go all soft here and start agreeing with the women by denying the nature of man!
wa alaikom assalam,
Nice to see you. :)
These are my views in the most simple way I can put them. ;)
- Any normal man who says he doesn't care about sex is a liar!
- Any normal woman who says she doesn't care about sex is just another liar!
- Any man who gets married for sex only is a moneky.
- Any womman who gets married for sex only is a moneky but a female one.
- Sex is part of human's nature and therefore is ONE reason for marriage.
- Sex is one thing but must not be everything in a marriage relationship.
- Any man or woman who don't agree with Saudi Prince on this can bang their heads on the nearst brick wall. Remember there are not just 4 but 5, the one under the carpet. I wouldn't say 6 because the ceiling is probably too high to recommend. ;) :)
Its very possible some men marry so they can have sex and find the other aspects of the marriage (such as earning a living, providing for her, actually caring for her beyond seeing her as a pleasure tool) unappealing and a burden (a right royal pain in the rear end)
Such men definitely need to view marriage outside of their sex-crazed lens. Because for them when sex becomes boring or "monotonous" they think their r'ship is doomed. Love and r'ships have nowadays become defined depending on how "good the sex is".
People need to view marriage as a life long commitment, not something you walk out of when it bores you.
This "roof over their heads" thing...
1: Does it actually have to be a roof as such? I mean, would a ceiling be okay?
2: Is it necessary for the man to actually own the deeds of the dwelling in question, or can it be rented?
rented is fine masha Allah, no muslimah would want a man to get a mortgage which is haram, and what man is going to have a spare £300,000 quid to buy a house outright in this country? it doesnt even have to be a house, or a flat, a bedsit with its own cooking area and a bathroom would do. Then they can save a bit insha Allah and make hijrah to morrocco ( for example) where they can buy a four storey house for £18,000 :up:
afsalim
30-01-08, 07:44 PM
Marrying for sex of course. isnt that the whole reason why men get married? To have sex in a halal manner?
Those who have a need (have sexual urges) to marry should marry asap to protect them from commiting zina.
Man is stronger then woman in many respects as this is how Allah the Most High created him and his weakness is women..... A woman is able to make her hubby the happiest man in the whole world:inlove: or destroy a man totally. In society, mentally,relgiously everything:torture:..... that my friend is a woman.:up:
That's a strange logic. Human beings are not designed to live in solitude. As humans we crave companionship and above all, we crave love. If sex is the sole reason for marriage, then its not marriage, rather concubinage.
The only aspect the men are stronger than women are physical strength and that's about it. Other than that, there are no difference between men and women, let it be emotional or intellectual. It is us who creates these ideologies to force women into servitude.
Is it okay to use your wife to emotionally blackmail people into giving you employment? Only, that's my Plan B. Get married and then apply for jobs with the "how am I supposed to support my darling wifey and our sweet wee babbie, wi no job?" trump card.
well if ur willing to stoop that low, why not skip the whole marriage and baby thing and save them from suffering with u and just lie about a starving wife and baby? :up:
Muhammad2
30-01-08, 08:07 PM
Brilliant idea.
Jazakh'Allah khayr sis :up:
Brilliant idea.
Jazakh'Allah khayr sis :up:
anyyytime :up: and of course we all know wat goes around comes around; lies will always have their way of coming out :spunch:
These are my views in the most simple way I can put them. ;)
- Any normal man who says he doesn't care about sex is a liar!
- Any normal woman who says she doesn't care about sex is just another liar!
- Any man who gets married for sex only is a moneky.
- Any womman who gets married for sex only is a moneky but a female one.
- Sex is part of human's nature and therefore is ONE reason for marriage.
- Sex is one thing but must not be everything in a marriage relationship.
- Any man or woman who don't agree with Saudi Prince on this can bang their heads on the nearst brick wall.
:jkk: sah masha Allah, The Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said The condition most deserved to be fulfilled, is that by which the private parts became lawful to you. ( bukhari and muslim )
shamson
30-01-08, 08:18 PM
That's a strange logic. Human beings are not designed to live in solitude. As humans we crave companionship and above all, we crave love. If sex is the sole reason for marriage, then its not marriage, rather concubinage.
The only aspect the men are stronger than women are physical strength and that's about it. Other than that, there are no difference between men and women, let it be emotional or intellectual. It is us who creates these ideologies to force women into servitude.
wow how can u say other then physical strength there is no difference between men and women? Are you married???????????????????????
Of course there is a HUGE difference if you are not married read books like 'the fragile vessels / closer then a garment by al-kitaab and sunnah publishing. it shud shed sum light.
Al-Farooq
30-01-08, 08:21 PM
This thread is a perfect example of what happens when young men listen to the macho ramblings of their friends and mistake that macho nonsense for genuine feelings and opinions.
Behind most of those macho ramblings is an insecure little boy, who 50% of the time, would rather cuddle.
Of course sex is important in a marriage, but the primary motivating factor for getting married? Do me a favour.
Stop reading the "lad's mags" and come back to the real world.
ImaanSeeker
30-01-08, 08:22 PM
The only aspect the men are stronger than women are physical strength and that's about it. Other than that, there are no difference between men and women, let it be emotional or intellectual. It is us who creates these ideologies to force women into servitude.
if you think there is no emotional difference between men and women, i don't know what to say.
shamson
30-01-08, 08:22 PM
Also Ok i can understand if a man says he wants to et married for sex as well as companionship, a family etc. then what is the reason for wanting to get married a second time/third time etc.
I know sisters who are second wives and third and the brother can just about support them so why did he marry again even though his first wife is beautiful, educated, a great cook and they have lovely kids? SEX plain and simple.
No need to beautify everything and make it seem like something itz not. Men want sex - there is nothing wrong with that. this is how they have been created so why wud it seem like something sooo awful and disgusting?
It's another topic that seems to suggest the same opinions on each and every single page.
wow how can u say other then physical strength there is no difference between men and women? Are you married???????????????????????
if you think there is no emotional difference between men and women, i don't know what to say.
lol, maybe he just forgot. emotional is like the 2nd most obvious difference, but his point was clear :p
Pippin1376
30-01-08, 08:30 PM
This thread is a perfect example of what happens when young men listen to the macho ramblings of their friends and mistake that macho nonsense for genuine feelings and opinions.
Behind most of those macho ramblings is an insecure little boy, who 50% of the time, would rather cuddle.
Of course sex is important in a marriage, but the primary motivating factor for getting married? Do me a favour.
Stop reading the "lad's mags" and come back to the real world.
:aku_mashallah:
Very good post brother Al Farooq!
$HugoBoss$
30-01-08, 08:31 PM
Nope, i wanna get married because i need someone to make me breakfast and iron my clothes in the morning :p
Nope, i wanna get married because i need someone to make me breakfast and iron my clothes in the morning :p
At least you're honest. *raises eyebrows*
Also Ok i can understand if a man says he wants to et married for sex as well as companionship, a family etc. then what is the reason for wanting to get married a second time/third time etc.
I know sisters who are second wives and third and the brother can just about support them so why did he marry again even though his first wife is beautiful, educated, a great cook and they have lovely kids? SEX plain and simple.
No need to beautify everything and make it seem like something itz not. Men want sex - there is nothing wrong with that. this is how they have been created so why wud it seem like something sooo awful and disgusting?
ukhti men dont marry again because there is something "wrong" with the first wife ie: as per your above example, she cant cook that well , she isnt educated, and shes not so beautiful ..could it not be that he also wanted to support these other women. I would want my husband to marry again, even if he had only just enough to support two households i would encourage that, look at the blessings he would get from Allah ta ala for that subhanAllah, do we not want al jannah for our husbands, do we not want good for the women and children of this ummah, there are far too many sisters fending f