How old was Aisha?

[Wolfn]

Salaams.

A non-Muslim on another forum asked me this question, and I still have yet to respond. Yes, there are stories of her being 6, but several people also told me that she was like 18 or 19.

How old was she?

[al_islam]

Salaams.

A non-Muslim on another forum asked me this question, and I still have yet to respond. Yes, there are stories of her being 6, but several people also told me that she was like 18 or 19.

How old was she?

WS, the hadith vary but we are to learn from them that she was of an age where she was able to be married.

The kuffar often pick out a hadith to use against Muslims saying she was 9, but there is a varied difference of opinion.

HOWEVER, she was definitely of a marry-able age.

Also the traditions in arabia were different to the traditions of today, and children often got engaged early. But the weddings happened when they came of age.

[urban_rose]

as far as i can remember, Aisha RA was married at the age of six and the marriage consummated at 9 years.

another thread on same topic (http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128790)

[salahuldin786]

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,



- Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).


- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it from him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.


- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less than three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.


- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh Baghdad).


- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and others.


- And our Mother `Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr ibn Mut`im before her father dropped that option when he received word from the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased with them.


In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable, but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are: Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `Urwah, reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.


Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha.


It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas.


Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the narratives of this event have been reported


Nor by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.


Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators, Sufyan ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.


Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik ibn `Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn `Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.


This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!


Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh), reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol11, pg 48 - 51)


Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt), above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub does not exactly endorse that criticism.


As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.


Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity, would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".


Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything

from his father except what he had heard directly from him.


Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what he had heard directly from him".


In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu `Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi Sulayman from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama and Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham!


Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)


An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301 #9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man changed a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or lapsed, so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"


According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijra. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijra.


Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic commentators agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.


Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.


According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `Urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.


A two year old is not an infant. A two year old is able to run around, which is what jariya means. As for "the comments of the experts" they concur on 6 or 7 as the age of marriage and 9 as the age of cohabitation.


According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.


First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second, `A'isha did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm Sulaym having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.


According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of Ayesha was ten years older than Ayesha.


Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she was ten years older than `A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here.


It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha, if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.


Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father, that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that "Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof for `A'isha's age whatsoever.


Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr, reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha was born in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.


Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.


According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab.


Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.


This shows that Ayesha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha should not have been born during the first year of Islam.


Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced Islam before `Umar (year 6) although she was born the previous year (year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.


Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra).


Not at all, there is no mention of emigration in Tabari's account of Abu Bakr's discussion with Mut`im. Nor did he ever ask him to take `A'isha because there had been only some preliminary talk, not a formal arrangement. Umm Ruman, Abu Bakr's wife, reportedly said: "By Allah, no promise had been given on our part at all!" Rather, al-Tabari said that when news of the Prophet's interest in `A'isha came, he went to see Mut`im. Then Mut`im's wife manifested her fear that her son would become Muslim if he married into Abu Bakr's family. Abu Bakr then left them and gave his assent to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace.


Now, if Ayesha was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.


Your assumption fizzles at the root when you read al-Tabari's positive assertion: "On the day he consummated the marriage with her, she was nine years old."


According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".


This is ignorant nonsense, bikr means a virgin girl, a girl who has never been married even if her age is 0 and there is no unclarity here whatsoever.


According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Ayesha. Fatimah is reported to have been born when the Prophet was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


Rather, Ibn Hajar mentions two versions: (1) al-Waqidi's narration that Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35; and (2) Ibn `Abd al-Barr's narration that she was born when he was 41, approximately one year more or less before Prophethood, and about five years before `A'isha was born. The latter version matches the established dates.


So our Mother `A'isha was nineteen to twenty years younger than her sister Asma' (b. 27 before Hijra-d. 74) and about five years to eight years Fatima's junior.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.


Those that itch to follow misguidance always resort to solipsisms because they are invariably thin on sources. In this particular case "the Learner" proves to be ignorant and dishonest. It is no surprise he moves on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises to false conclusions.


Hajj Gibril

[Ibn Sina]

She was 6 when the marraige happened and 9 when it as consummated unless you reject mutawatir ahadiths ....

[BlueDragon]

I think 18-23

[The Deen]

She was around 18 when the prophet peace be upon him passed away.

[The Deen]

Aishah became the Prophet's wife in Makkah when she was most likely in the tenth year of her life but her wedding did not take place until the second year after the Hijrah when she was about fourteen or fifteen years old. Before and after her wedding she maintained a natural jollity and innocence and did not seem at all overawed by the thought of being wedded to him who was the Messenger of God whom all his companions, including her own mother and father, treated with such love and reverence as they gave to no one else.

http://the-deen.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3928#3928

[Mullah_Din]

PUT THIS INFRONT OF THE NON-MUSLIMS!

I ANSWERED THIS WITH THE GRACE OF ALLAH TAA'LA!

Wassalaam,

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=148618&page=3

[Wolfn]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.

[juuunaaaid]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.

I see you're in Florida, so you're probably dealing with Christians.

In that case, you may kindly inform them that Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, was married to her husband Joseph when she was as young as 12 years of age, and Joseph was in his 40s.

You see, we're comparing time periods which are one to two thousand years apart. Its very reasonable to witness changes in the family system in two thousand years. Here, in 2007, it's hard to understand. But that was the norm. Aisha was in fact, engaged to another man before she was engaged to the Prophet. So being married at this young was not something unusual for the time. Today, it would be strange indeed. Men and women today mature at different stages in their life than they did a few thousand years ago.

And Allah knows best.

[Wolfn]

I see you're in Florida, so you're probably dealing with Christians.

In that case, you may kindly inform them that Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, was married to her husband Joseph when she was as young as 12 years of age, and Joseph was in his 40s.

You see, we're comparing time periods which are one to two thousand years apart. Its very reasonable to witness changes in the family system in two thousand years. Here, in 2007, it's hard to understand. But that was the norm. Aisha was in fact, engaged to another man before she was engaged to the Prophet. So being married at this young was not something unusual for the time. Today, it would be strange indeed. Men and women today mature at different stages in their life than they did a few thousand years ago.

And Allah knows best.


Ok, jazaks for the info.

But where can I prove Mary was 12?

[Tariq Lateef]

I see you're in Florida, so you're probably dealing with Christians.

In that case, you may kindly inform them that Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, was married to her husband Joseph when she was as young as 12 years of age, and Joseph was in his 40s.

You see, we're comparing time periods which are one to two thousand years apart. Its very reasonable to witness changes in the family system in two thousand years. Here, in 2007, it's hard to understand. But that was the norm. Aisha was in fact, engaged to another man before she was engaged to the Prophet. So being married at this young was not something unusual for the time. Today, it would be strange indeed. Men and women today mature at different stages in their life than they did a few thousand years ago.

And Allah knows best.

Can you show me some proof / citation of the fact that Mary was 12 and Joseph was in his 40's. Just so I can tell um if i ever face the same question.

[Wolfn]

*edit*

[abdulhakeem]

Salaams.

A non-Muslim on another forum asked me this question, and I still have yet to respond. Yes, there are stories of her being 6, but several people also told me that she was like 18 or 19.

How old was she?wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

you are a funny bro - of course she was 6 but she also was 18 and 19 - at least at one time in her life - like billions of other ppl who have reached their twenties.

[BlueDragon]

wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

you are a funny bro - of course she was 6 but she also was 18 and 19 - at least at one time in her life - like billions of other ppl who have reached their twenties.

there is something called taking statements in their context

[GothiKa]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.

Muhammad(saw) was not a pedophile for the following reasons:

(1) Aisha was already a woman by the time she married, which was after she had reached puberty. As the psychologist, Margaret Matlin, affirmed, "For females, a major physical milestone of puberty is menarche, or the beginning of menstruation. However, no specific event separates adolescence from adulthood. We usually associate adulthood with living separately from our parents, holding a job, and having children of our own. However, none of these characteristics is essential for adulthood. (The Psychology of Women, p. 132)

(2) He did not marry Aisha(ra) when she was 6.

(3) Aisha(ra) was the only 9 year old girl he married. If Muhammad(saw) was a pedophile, he surely would have had relationships with more young girls.

[Supernova Nebula]

There's a wisdom behind her marriage to Prophet Muhammad SAW which we found later. For limitless transmission of knowldge of the deen between a husband and his wife, in limitless and free conducts and communication between a husband and his wife. At that tender age, she was more absorbent to knowledge, strong memory. Aisha turned out to be a great scholar and became a main reference for the companions and Muslims in general for the knowledge of Islam. Her young marriage is not necessarily for us to follow because it was never made a rule. So you dont have to marry off your daughters at that age.

[neelu]

Akhi Wolfn, according to most reports Aisha (ra) was 9 when she consomatted her marriage. Kufaar have no concept of what constitutes adulthood which is why they've set a legal standard "age of consent" of 16 under the assumption that everyone should've (physically at least) matured by that age even though it is well known that people grow and develop at different rates and ages. Islam sets the standard of readiness for marriage as the age of puberty and I think this has been the standard in most cultures (Muslim or not) until the 20th century.

The other suggestion is good too; ask them how old Maryam was when she gave birth to Jesus (as). I don't know how old she was but there's nothing contradicting the assertion that she may have been 12 years old as such an age for childbearing wasn't a taboo issue in those days.

[GothiKa]

The other suggestion is good too; ask them how old Maryam was when she gave birth to Jesus (as). I don't know how old she was but there's nothing contradicting the assertion that she may have been 12 years old as such an age for childbearing wasn't a taboo issue in those days.

According to apocryphal accounts, Mary was 14 years old when she married the 90 year old Joseph.

[Abdul-Curim]

Akhi Wolfn, according to most reports Aisha (ra) was 9 when she consomatted her marriage. Kufaar have no concept of what constitutes adulthood which is why they've set a legal standard "age of consent" of 16 under the assumption that everyone should've (physically at least) matured by that age even though it is well known that people grow and develop at different rates and ages. Islam sets the standard of readiness for marriage as the age of puberty and I think this has been the standard in most cultures (Muslim or not) until the 20th century.

The other suggestion is good too; ask them how old Maryam was when she gave birth to Jesus (as). I don't know how old she was but there's nothing contradicting the assertion that she may have been 12 years old as such an age for childbearing wasn't a taboo issue in those days.

the non-muslims make a big cry about the age of ayesha (ra) when she married Rasulallah (saws) .

what they fail to realise is that there were certain cultural practises which were common to other races and tribes around the world even until a couple of centuries ago .

in america if a man pays to sleeps with a woman who could be atleast 40 years younger out of wedlock its absolutely fine as long as both are consenting adults . but if a man approaches another man and seeks the hand of his daughter in marriage pays her what she asks of him and lets the whole society witness the marriage , this is unberable to the western mind .

these westerners cannot differentiate between a legal marriage contract between two people and the rape or liberal sex out of wedlock .

it was a common practise amongst the arabs to seek the hand of the friends' daughter in marriage and this what rasulallah (saws) did by seeking to marry his good friend Abu bakr(ra) 's daughter .

I believe a woman is mentally mature enough to handle married life the moment she attains puberty even though wisdom is something which grows through age . this western concept of terming a person adult only when one attains 18 years is quite senseless .

[MNK]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.

Salaam

What a lot of people probably don't know is that Muhammad (SAW)'s marriage to Aisha (RA) was a divine commandment by Allah..i.e. he was ordered to marry her

She was married to him at age 6.

If anyone accepts that Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger of Allah then they should not question the above because when Allah SWT commands us something who are we to question this. (though many of us question our religion nowadays).

If the kuffar don't accept Muhammad (SAW) as the messenger of Allah, arguing with them is futile since whatever you say about him they wouldn't want to believe.

Also it has been narrated that Aisha (RA) was a very inquisitive girl and hence her marriage to SAW was a blessing for the ummah. This is because she questioned a lot of the hadith/things our Prophet used to do and got explanations from SAW for this. This is how we now know a lot of logic behind many hadith. Furthermore, Aisha(RA) is known to be the 4th top narrator of hadith(i.e. it is partly because of her that we know so much about SAW's life )

So from the above, we get a glimpse of Allah SWT's infinite wisdom in commanding SAW to marry Aisha RA.

There is a very good segment on Shk Anwar Awlaki's lecture (life of Muhammad) that explains all of the above; I suggest you get hold of it.

[Kareem]

Muhammad(saw) was not a pedophile for the following reasons:

(1) Aisha was already a woman by the time she married, which was after she had reached puberty. As the psychologist, Margaret Matlin, affirmed, "For females, a major physical milestone of puberty is menarche, or the beginning of menstruation. However, no specific event separates adolescence from adulthood. We usually associate adulthood with living separately from our parents, holding a job, and having children of our own. However, none of these characteristics is essential for adulthood. (The Psychology of Women, p. 132)

(2) He did not marry Aisha(ra) when she was 6.

(3) Aisha(ra) was the only 9 year old girl he married. If Muhammad(saw) was a pedophile, he surely would have had relationships with more young girls.


This is correct, the arrangements for marriage were set up early, maybe at the time she was 6. However, they waited until she was the appropriate age, reaching puberty. She was in all likeliness 9.

[forever_shadow]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.


From the many, many reliable Islamic sources I have read, Aisha was 6 when she marrired and 9 when Mohammad consumated the marriage, i.e., he had sex with her.

Now, if you believe that Aisha was technically a women because (1) she had gotten her period at that time and (2) you believe the apoligetics who like to insist that it was normal for a girl to marry and have sex at that age during the time of Mohammad, then, no Mohammad was not a pedophile.

However, if you believe that Aisha was merely still a child when Mohammad had sex with her, regardless of whether or not she had gotten her period, then he was a pedophile.

Quite frankly, it makes no sense to me to keep arguing #2 when explaining this to non-muslim, because all you have to do is turn on the news/read a newspaper to see that in most Arab/Muslim countries, girls are still subjected to forced child marriages at very early ages. And you can bet your bottom dollar if she was forced to marry, she was forced to conmsumate the marriage as well. :(

[Islamiyyah]

I have a question. When people see Aisha's age, they say the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a pedophile. How do I argue with that?


I want to defend the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) but I have limited knowledge about some subjects of Islam.

Tell them it was way different back then. We're taking about ovver 1400 years ago. Girls were different, more mature etc. Even in the late 18oo's girls got married at twelve to older men. These days are different and so are the people. We cannot compare.

[forever_shadow]

Girls were different, more mature etc.

By what authority is this claim made? Sources? Scientifically, speaking that is.

By this logic, girls are undergoing a sort of de-evolution process for lack of a better word. At this rate, some 1400 years later, females should be single-celled organisms, no? Just sayin . . .

[Saudi Prince]

Tell them it was way different back then. We're taking about ovver 1400 years ago. Girls were different, more mature etc. Even in the late 18oo's girls got married at twelve to older men. These days are different and so are the people. We cannot compare.

Even now in Egypt some girls marry at the age of 12-14. People of the past are different. We all now that Osamah bin Zaid RA led an army while he was 17 years old only! But a 17 year-old boy of today will hardly know how to participate in a forum like Ummah. ;)

[Islamiyyah]

Even now in Egypt some girls marry at the age of 12-14. People of the past are different. We all now that Osamah bin Zaid RA led an army while he was 17 years old only! But a 17 year-old boy of today will hardly know how to participate in a forum like Ummah. ;)

Exactly.


Girls are different in other countries too. The people most likely asking him these questions have the American mentality. American girls are nowhere near mature as girls in say China ect, thus they get the wrong idea og Aisha (ra).

[neelu]

Might actually be worth asking people how old their grandmothers or great grandmothers were when they got married. I know 'back home', back in that generation, age 13-15 was the norm and no one questioned it. It wouldn't surprise me if it was a norm in the Western world too until recently. In fact there were a lot of shocking cultural norms in the Western world just at the end of the 19th century which really wasn't THAT long ago. Church leaders were debating whether women had a soul or not, women didn't have the right to vote, it was common for teenage girls to have all their teeth unnecessarily removed because dental treatment was so expensive. Just 50 years ago, America was a land of lynch mobs out to kill black people- then they have the audacity to point fingers at us:confused:

Also notice how no one asks what the Hindus are up to even though they're so systematically cruel to their girls that they have a massive population crisis because there are villages full of men and only a handful of women- this is because the girls are killed off in the womb, or through 'dowry deaths'. Let's not forget the religious practises which heavily revolve around women worshipping men. The Independant newspaper said in a report 10 years ago that there are an estimated 40 million 'missing' females in India (ie not part of the population due to being killed off in this manner) and there's a similar population gap in China due to the one child policy and people wanting that one child to be a boy.

[juuunaaaid]

From the many, many reliable Islamic sources I have read, Aisha was 6 when she marrired and 9 when Mohammad consumated the marriage, i.e., he had sex with her.

Now, if you believe that Aisha was technically a women because (1) she had gotten her period at that time and (2) you believe the apoligetics who like to insist that it was normal for a girl to marry and have sex at that age during the time of Mohammad, then, no Mohammad was not a pedophile.

However, if you believe that Aisha was merely still a child when Mohammad had sex with her, regardless of whether or not she had gotten her period, then he was a pedophile.

Quite frankly, it makes no sense to me to keep arguing #2 when explaining this to non-muslim, because all you have to do is turn on the news/read a newspaper to see that in most Arab/Muslim countries, girls are still subjected to forced child marriages at very early ages. And you can bet your bottom dollar if she was forced to marry, she was forced to conmsumate the marriage as well. :(

Hahaha. Funny how quick some rush to bash Islam.

The fact here is that 1400 years ago, and for centuries before that time, and up until as early as the 19th and 20th centuries, girls were married at much younger ages than they are today. Girls being married at the age of puberty was clearly a common practice in the whole world, and not limited to Islam, Arabs, or the Prophet Muhammad. Even in the Christian tradition, scholars place the age of Mary as young as 12, and Joseph in his 40s or 50s. I am sure Christians would not brand Joseph a "pedophile"...and so, using this logic, they wouldn't brand Muhammad a pedophile either. This may be difficult for you to comprehend in today's world. But this is factual history, and we have provided you evidence supporting this fact. If you have evidence on the contrary which rebuts my point, please do provide it.

And Allah knows best.

[forever_shadow]

Even in the Christian tradition, scholars place the age of Mary as young as 12, and Joseph in his 40s or 50s.

Quite true.

No one really knows Mary or Joseph's age for sure. depending on which source you believe, Mary could have been 12 or 16 or 20,etc. Joseph was as old as 20 or 30 or 40, etc. I even did one search and a Muslim website put Mary's age at between 9-12 and Joseph's at an undisputed 90. :rotfl: I wish I had bookmarked that one. ;)

It is, however, quite clearly recognized by scholars and Muslims alike that Aisha was 6 when she married and 9 when her marriage to Mohammd was consummated.

Personally, I believe there is a big difference in a 9 year old and a 14 year old, regardless of whether that girl has reached her period or not. A 9 year old, no matter how you twist and rationalize and stretch the truth, is still A CHILD. Sorry. But that is just how I feel.

[The Deen]

Read this: http://www.inkofscholars.com/mujlis/pdf_articles/HadhratAishah(ra).pdf

[GothiKa]

I even did one search and a Muslim website put Mary's age at between 9-12 and Joseph's at an undisputed 90.

The Muslim website probably got that information from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm

When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15687b.htm) called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm) (the Less, "the Lord's brother" (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02767a.htm)). A year after his wife's death, as the priests (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm) announced through Judea (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08544a.htm) that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08536a.htm) a respectable man to espouse Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm), then twelve to fourteen years of age. Joseph, who was at the time (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm) manifested the choice God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01541c.htm) took place.

[forever_shadow]

Read this: http://www.inkofscholars.com/mujlis/pdf_articles/HadhratAishah(ra).pdf

There is no moral or religious constraint on child-marriage. [emphasis mine]

:eek3:

oh. my. word. :rubeyes:

Wolfn, I think you have your answer. I'm sure that discussion will go over well with the non-muslims. :up: I wish you luck. You're gonna need it.

[GothiKa]

The following is worth the read

Jogaila, later Władysław II Jagiełło[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jogaila#_note-name) (c. 1362–1434), was a Grand Duke of Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duke_of_Lithuania) and King of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Poland). He ruled in Lithuania from 1377, at first with his uncle, Kęstutis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C4%99stutis). In 1386, he converted to Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), was baptized as Władysław, married the 12-year-old Queen Jadwiga of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland),

As understood, 12 year old Christian girls were not considered as children in the days of yore.

[forever_shadow]

married the 12-year-old Queen Jadwiga of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jadwiga_of_Poland),

As understood, 12 year old Christian girls were not considered as children in the days of yore.


Poor girl. :(

Just because a Christian did it as well, it still doesn't make it right.

[GothiKa]

Just because a Christian did it as well, it still doesn't make it right

No, it simply shows that like Islam, Christianity does not disapprove of girls getting married immediately or a few years after reaching puberty. If you have evidence to the contrary, do present it.

[forever_shadow]

No, it simply shows that like Islam, Christianity does not disapprove of girls getting married immediately or a few years after reaching puberty. If you have evidence to the contrary, do present it.

Do you mean today, or do you mean before there was cable?

Because I don't think most Christians TODAY would approve of forced CHILD marriages, whether the girl has reached puberty or not. In civilized countries like the US, we wait til a person is an adult or of consenting age, depending on which state you live in.

[forever_shadow]

Best Age to Marry Climbing
Gallup Poll Shows America's Ideal Age Now 25 for Women, 27 for Men

By Jennifer Warner

WebMD Medical NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MDJune 23, 2006 --

The best age to get married is shifting higher in the minds of Americans, with 25 now viewed as the ideal age for women, 27 for men.

That's up from an ideal age of 21 for women given in 1946. Americans then thought men should be 25, according to a new Gallup Poll reporting the change in attitudes.

The poll showed that America's opinion about the best time to get married has shifted dramatically over the last 60 years.


Since the US is a predominently Christian country,
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html I'm sure you can put two and two together yourself.

[GothiKa]

Because I don't think most Christians TODAY would approve of forced CHILD marriages, whether the girl has reached puberty or not. In civilized countries like the US, we wait til a person is an adult or of consenting age, depending on which state you live in.

Even Islam does not approve of forced marriages.

Most Christians today do not even have a clue about their Scriptures. They are mostly secular. Had it not been the case, they would not support immoral practices prevalent in the West.

Since the US is a predominently Christian country,
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html I'm sure you can put two and two together yourself.

Your argument is as follows: since the US is predominantly Christian country, most Americans' rejection of child marriage is based on Christian morality. By the same token, we could say that since majority of the homosexuals in America are Christians, and they are not condemned by the predominantly Christian state, the basis for homosexuality is also rooted in Christian morality. Also, since majority of the people in America are Christians who are increasingly opting for cohabitation rather than marriage, such a practice is only Christian.

The best age to get married is shifting higher in the minds of Americans, with 25 now viewed as the ideal age for women, 27 for men.

They may get married in their late 20s, but most lose their virginities a lot earlier. Since the US is predominantly Christian, it is not unChristian to engage in premartial intercourse.

[juuunaaaid]

Do you mean today, or do you mean before there was cable?

Because I don't think most Christians TODAY would approve of forced CHILD marriages, whether the girl has reached puberty or not. In civilized countries like the US, we wait til a person is an adult or of consenting age, depending on which state you live in.

You're clearly very confused.

Once again, in world history...which encompasses Muslim, Christian, Judaic, Chinese, from East to West, North to South....children being married at the age of puberty was normal. It was common, accepted and normal. Is the same societal standard applicable thousands of years later? Of course not. Today, most Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Chinese do not get married at puberty, but wait until after graduation and so on. But I'm sure a literate individual such as yourself can wrap his mind around a historical fact in human history without your preconceived biases and double standard against Islam.

Next...

[forever_shadow]

They may get married in their late 20s, but most lose their virginities a lot earlier. Since the US is predominantly Christian, it is not unChristian to engage in premartial intercourse.

Actually it is un-Christian-like behavior to do so, but people tend to ignore that and justify it in their head. *shrug* I don't condone it nor do I defend it. You are barking up the wrong tree there, cuz I'm with you on this one. :up:

[forever_shadow]

Today, most Muslims, Christians, Jews, and Chinese do not get married at puberty, but wait until after graduation and so on. But I'm sure a literate individual such as yourself can wrap his mind around a historical fact in human history without your preconceived biases and double standard against Islam.


That's funny given all the statistics of forced child brides in Arab/Muslims countries these days: Egypt, Afghanastan, etc. All you have to do is google child brides/arab countries to see what I mean. :(

I don't have any preconceived biased and double standards against Islam. I have a problem with the CULTURAL practice still prevelant today in arab countries which does not seem to be looked down upon by Muslims as a whole. Anyone who denies that this is going on is either living under a rock or very very blind. It's a horrible horrible CULTURAL practice and needs to STOP. Christians and Muslims alike, that is. It's wrong on BOTH sides.

[juuunaaaid]

I don't have any preconceived biased and double standards against Islam. I have a problem with the CULTURAL practice still prevelant today in arab countries which does not seem to be looked down upon by Muslims as a whole.

Ah, yes, here we have a casual observer who associates Islam exclusively with the Arab world, which in reality comprises less than 20% of the Muslim population. And sure, let's ignore the "statistics" that the overwhelming majority of the Muslim population does not engage in these "forced child brides". I'm sure the fact that well over a billion Muslims reject this horrid practice doesn't qualify as being "looked down upon by Muslims as a whole" by you. I'm sorry, but your bias is a bit obvious my friend.

[forever_shadow]

the Muslim population does not engage in these forced child brides

If it's not practiced and it is looked down upon, how come it still happens? It doesn't matter if the country is predominently Muslim or not. It's wrong. No matter what religion practices it. It's not just Islam. And it's not only Arab countries. I am against it as a whole. PERIOD.

http://www.childinfo.org/areas/childmarriage/


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-07-16-child-marriages-aid_N.htm

http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportId=74027

http://children.foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/child-marriage/

http://voiceofsouth.org/2007/07/15/child_wedding/

http://www.iheu.org/node/2554

To deny that it happens in mostly Muslim countries is dishonest on your part.

[GothiKa]

forever shadow, if the marriage between 12 year old Mary and 90 year old Joseph were true, would you condemn Joseph? if not, why?

[forever_shadow]

forever shadow, if the marriage between 12 year old Mary and 90 year old Joseph were true, would you condemn Joseph? if not, why?

That depends on whether you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond mere speculation and backed by a cross-reference of sources that (1) she married at 12; (2) Mary and Joseph actually consummated their marriage while she was still a child.

If you can prove it, then yes I would condemn it in the sense that yes I think it is morally wrong.

You would also be hard-pressed in convincing me that despite Mary being *married* at 12 to a 90 year old Joseph, she actually consummated the marriage with Joseph, as I am a Catholic and believe that Mary remained a lifelong virgin, despite being married. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence to me, as it is my faith and my faith teaches that Mary was a lifelong virgin.


Ever-Virginity

One of the more puzzling traditions regarding the Theotokos for modern Christians is the teaching that she is Ever-Virgin, that is, that she remained a virgin before, during, and eternally after the birth of Jesus Christ.

That the Holy Virgin Mary is Ever-Virgin (Aeiparthenos) is not to elevate her to some special status or to incite us to worship the creature rather than the Creator. Rather, it is an affirmation of who Christ Jesus is. Because He has chosen her to be his mother, to conceive Him, to give flesh to Him, to give birth to Him, we understand her as a finite dwelling place of the infinite God. Thus, because she is in this sense this new Holy of Holies, her ever-virginity is a natural characteristic of such an awesome reality.

The whole tradition of the Orthodox Christian Church has always held her to be in truth Ever-Virgin, knowing her personally from the beginning and then passing the truths on from one generation to the next, never expanding nor subtracting from what was known in the beginning. Except for a few instances here and there in history, never have Christians regarded her in any other fashion until relatively late in the Protestant traditions.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos

[juuunaaaid]

If it's not practiced and it is looked down upon, how come it still happens? It doesn't matter if the country is predominently Muslim or not. It's wrong. No matter what religion practices it. It's not just Islam. And it's not only Arab countries. I am against it as a whole. PERIOD.

To deny that it happens in mostly Muslim countries is dishonest on your part.

Putting words in my mouth is a bit childish, don't you think? Nowhere did I say deny the occurrence of this horrid practice. Be careful.

[juuunaaaid]

That depends on whether you can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond mere speculation and backed by a cross-reference of sources that (1) she married at 12; (2) Mary and Joseph actually consummated their marriage while she was still a child.

If you can prove it, then yes I would condemn it in the sense that yes I think it is morally wrong.

You would also be hard-pressed in convincing me that despite Mary being *married* at 12 to a 90 year old Joseph, she actually consummated the marriage with Joseph, as I am a Catholic and believe that Mary remained a lifelong virgin, despite being married. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence to me, as it is my faith and my faith teaches that Mary was a lifelong virgin.


You're very new to Islam, aren't you? Muslims firmly believe that Mary was a virgin. This it not something limited to 'your faith'.

And you're missing the point here. The point isn't the age of Mary and Joseph, the point is the hypocrisy on your part. Whereas you immediately rush to condemn the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha, here we have an example in your own Christian history of a similar marriage. The point is that this was common practice in the the Christian world, Muslim world, Chinese world, and so on. You still haven't provided me any evidence to the contrary.

"When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

- Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church

You condemning the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha required you to similarly condemn the marriage of Joseph and Mary, and the culture of countless human beings in world history who were married at this young age, as was the norm back then.

[paul77uk]

According to The Protoevangelium of James (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0847.htm) it seems to say Mary was over twelve years of age when they sought someone to marry her.

It also says:
"And the priest said to Joseph, You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the virgin of the Lord. But Joseph refused, saying: I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl. I am afraid lest I become a laughing-stock to the sons of Israel."

It later seems to mention her being sixteen years of age before giving birth.

[ummbilal]

as far as i can remember, Aisha RA was married at the age of six and the marriage consummated at 9 years.

another thread on same topic (http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=128790)

in many muslim communities and before islam it is customary for a girl to be married as soon as her periods start, so if Aisha ra started at 9 hense why the marriage was consumated then,

just so u can put it into perspective, my grandmother and anuties who were born in rural north africa, we all married at @ 12, and were HAPPY to be married. they lived with their inlaws and were looked after for many years before moving out on their own, this gave them the care and support they needed .

I wouldnt recommened marrying your daughters at this age in the UK, as our society is very different, but when a girl of 12 is concidered grown, then it works well.

[forever_shadow]

You're very new to Islam, aren't you? Muslims firmly believe that Mary was a virgin. This it not something limited to 'your faith'.

Then there is NO comparison between Mary and Aisha: Mary was a virgin for all her life; Aisha consummated her marriage with Mohammad at NINE.

And you're missing the point here. The point isn't the age of Mary and Joseph, the point is the hypocrisy on your part. Whereas you immediately rush to condemn the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha, here we have an example in your own Christian history of a similar marriage. The point is that this was common practice in the the Christian world, Muslim world, Chinese world, and so on. You still haven't provided me any evidence to the contrary.

No you are missing the point. There is no hypocracy on my part. I think it's wrong NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION DOES IT/DID IT.


"When she first was arranged with Joseph she was between 7 to 9 years old."

- [SIZE=2]Priest of Saint Mary's Catholic Church

Again, one perspective. Mary and Joseph's age when they married has never been incontrovertably proven.


You condemning the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha required you to similarly condemn the marriage of Joseph and Mary

Again not the same thing. Mary and Joseph NEVER consummated their marriage, Aisha and Mohammad did.

The issue is not marriage, per se. The issue is sex with a CHILD. However, I am aware that Muslims have a different definition of "child" than I do, which is a shame because cultural practice wins over science here. I've posted many links showing how harmful it is for young children to engage in sexual activities and to give birth, but because culture wins here, it is ignored. It's sad. My opinion still stands: sex with children is wrong and harmful to them, regardless of whether they have gotten their period. As for proof, do a post search of mine and look at the links I've posted in the past. If not, do a google search. I'm not gonna reinvent the wheel here.

[GothiKa]

However, I am aware that Muslims have a different definition of "child" than I do, which is a shame because cultural practice wins over science here. I've posted many links showing how harmful it is for young children to engage in sexual activities and to give birth, but because culture wins here, it is ignored. It's sad.My opinion still stands: sex with children is wrong and harmful to them

Only when it is proven that the negative consequences of the Prophet's marriage to Aisha outweigh the positive consequences can we conclude that the marriage was immoral. As you may already know, this approach is consequentialist in nature.

As per your assertions, negative consequences constitute physical harm inflicted on the child. Though not expressly stated, I'm sure you consider the mental damages suffered by the child to be negative as well.

Would you be kind enough to show us that Aisha suffered from bodily as well as psychological injuries?

This is a simple request, forever. I expect you to answer it honestly.

[forever_shadow]

Would you be kind enough to show us that Aisha suffered from bodily as well as psychological injuries?

This is a simple request, forever. I expect you to answer it honestly.

Aisha specifically? What a crock. A simple request? There is none on Aisha specifically and you know it. Asking me to do this, knowing I can't is a sure way for you to say, "see you can't prove Aisha suffered any harm so therefore you am wrong." Sorry don't buy it.

She was NINE YEARS OLD. Mohammad was 54 and he had SEX WITH HER. Surely you cannot sit there and honestly tell me Mohammad did nothing wrong? :rolleyes:

It's wrong today just as it was wrong back then. Marriage to children and sex with children is wrong. Do some research on the net. Children as young as 12 giving birth have a higher risk of dying during the process. It's statistically incontrovertable. Deny it all you want, Gothicka, but it is physically (not to mention emotionally) harmful to children.

There is evidence out there on the mental state of childen who have been sexually abused and through Islamic sources, it can be shown that Aisha did have some of those red flag indicators that she was emotionally scarred due to sexual abuse from a very early age. But of course, any source I produce will be dismissed and deleted and will result in a ban for me so I am not even gonna bother. You can however, look it up for yourself.

[GothiKa]

Aisha specifically? What a crock. A simple request? There is none on Aisha specifically and you know it. Asking me to do this, knowing I can't is a sure way for you to say, "see you can't prove Aisha suffered any harm so therefore you am wrong." Sorry don't buy it.Muslims have preserved the biographies of all the companions of the Prophet, including his wives. Now will you investigate the matter for yourself?

She was NINE YEARS OLD. Mohammad was 54 and he had SEX WITH HER. Surely you cannot sit there and honestly tell me Mohammad did nothing wrong?That is what I want to find out. You say child marriages are wrong because young girls necessarily go through bodily injuries and psychological problems. I want you to show that Aisha was no exception, especially keeping in mind that you believe, though you have not explicitly admitted it, that the Prophet was a licentious,perverted individual (Nauzubillah)-oblivious to the emotions of women.

There is evidence out there on the mental state of childen who have been sexually abused and through Islamic sources, it can be shown that Aisha did have some of those red flag indicators that she was emotionally scarred due to sexual abuse from a very early age. But of course, any source I produce will be dismissed and deleted and will result in a ban for me so I am not even gonna bother. You can however, look it up for yourself.I assure you, the sources you afford will not be censored. Now will you bring forth your proof?

[forever_shadow]

I assure you, the sources you afford will not be dismissed. Now will you bring forth your proof?

baiting me into a ban? These sites will get me banned no doubt.

do a web search on your own, from my perspective, not your own.

I will not post them here. Nice try.

[GothiKa]

baiting me into a ban? These sites will get me banned no doubt.

do a web search on your own, from my perspective, not your own.

I will not post them here. Nice try.

You could at least post the references that report Aisha's problems.

[Supernova Nebula]

Human biological and physiological set up varies from race to race and as a matter of fact from individual to individual. I had a friend when I was 12, she was large for her age (she had an 18 year old female body at 12 I would say) and told me that she had her first periods at 10 or 11 if Im not wrong but surely she had her first periods at a very young age.

Here in England, some girls look really older than their age, I always walk past the 6th Form school and was shocked at first when looking at the size of the school girls there, whereas in my country, a 16 year old girl would look like England's 12 year old girls.The socio-cultural aspect of the arab society during the Prophet's time should also be taken into consideration. Other than that, I've mentioned the wisdom behind the marriage and another poster who referred to what Sheikh Anwar Awlaki says concerning it and as far as I know, the general companions and the arabs at that time in general had no qualms whatsoever about the marriage of Prophet to Aisha.

The marriage could have been consummated when Aisha reached her puberty at 9 but pregnancy did not happen at the early period of their marriage.

[forever_shadow]

You could at least post the references that report Aisha's problems.

No because I will no doubt be banned for posting "filfth".

I'll PM them to you.

[forever_shadow]

Human biological and physiological set up varies from race to race and as a matter of fact from individual to individual. I had a friend when I was 12, she was large for her age (she had an 18 year old female body at 12 I would say) and told me that she had her first periods at 10 or 11 if Im not wrong but surely she had her first periods at a very young age.

Here in England, some girls look really older than their age, I always walk past the 6th Form school and was shocked at first when looking at the size of the school girls there, whereas in my country, a 16 year old girl would look like England's 12 year old girls.The socio-cultural aspect of the arab society during the Prophet's time should also be taken into consideration. Other than that, I've mentioned the wisdom behind the marriage and another poster who referred to what Sheikh Anwar Awlaki says concerning it and as far as I know, the general companions and the arabs at that time in general had no qualms whatsoever about the marriage of Prophet to Aisha.

The marriage could have been consummated when Aisha reached her puberty at 9 but pregnancy did not happen at the early period of their marriage.

Just because a CHILD looks older than her stated age, doesn't make it okay to have sex with her. Some pedophiles use that logic, you know.

[Supernova Nebula]

Just because a CHILD looks older than her stated age, doesn't make it okay to have sex with her. Some pedophiles use that logic, you know.

and here i've been stressing so much on the contextual aspect of it.

[Supernova Nebula]

Aisha specifically? What a crock. A simple request? There is none on Aisha specifically and you know it. Asking me to do this, knowing I can't is a sure way for you to say, "see you can't prove Aisha suffered any harm so therefore you am wrong." Sorry don't buy it.

She was NINE YEARS OLD. Mohammad was 54 and he had SEX WITH HER. Surely you cannot sit there and honestly tell me Mohammad did nothing wrong? :rolleyes:

It's wrong today just as it was wrong back then. Marriage to children and sex with children is wrong. Do some research on the net. Children as young as 12 giving birth have a higher risk of dying during the process. It's statistically incontrovertable. Deny it all you want, Gothicka, but it is physically (not to mention emotionally) harmful to children.

There is evidence out there on the mental state of childen who have been sexually abused and through Islamic sources, it can be shown that Aisha did have some of those red flag indicators that she was emotionally scarred due to sexual abuse from a very early age. But of course, any source I produce will be dismissed and deleted and will result in a ban for me so I am not even gonna bother. You can however, look it up for yourself.

UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Grandmother at 26
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/430000/images/_432463_maternity300.jpg
Rotherham is a teenage pregnancy hotspot
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Britain's youngest grandmother has spoken of her shock over learning that her 12-year-old daughter had given birth.

The 26-year-old woman said she had been devastated by the news but intended to support her daughter and baby grandson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/linkbox.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/newsid_342000/342989.stm)http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gifThe youngster, who is in her second year at comprehensive school, had the baby in the bathroom of their home in Rotherham, South Yorkshire on Thursday.
She had not known she was pregnant.
The girl and child were taken to Rotherham District General Hospital, where they are both said to be doing well.
'No idea'
The baby's grandmother, who gave birth herself at 14, told a news conference at Rotherham police station: "We had no idea she was pregnant. Nobody in the family did.
"She had put on a little bit of weight but we didn't suspect anything.
"I couldn't believe it when it started happening and I even threatened to smack an ambulance man when he said she had given birth."
The family revealed the youngster had been to see her GP in the weeks before the birth but the pregnancy had not been detected.
The day before the birth the girl was at hospital for a dental visit, but again nobody realised anything was amiss.
The grandmother, who lives in a council house, described her daughter as a normal youngster who enjoyed playing on her bike, watching television and listening to pop music. Her favourite group is Boyzone.
The child's grandfather added: "It would have been better if this had happened in a few years' time but we won't turn her away.
"We are obviously all upset but our main concern has to be the child and the baby in hospital. We just want to be left alone to get on with things."
Police and social services are investigating and will question the girl about the identity of the father.
'Victim of crime'
A spokesman for South Yorkshire Police said: "We are treating this as a 12-year-old girl who is a victim of crime.
"The sexual offences unit is investigating but we will not be able to speak to the girl until after the weekend. Her welfare is paramount."
Rotherham has one of Britain's highest incidences of teenage pregnancy. Only this week its health authority announced that more cash was being provided to tackle the problem.
In some parts of the town, one in six pregnancies involve girls under the age of 19.
Britain's previous youngest grandmother is understood to have been 28 when her daughter gave birth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/432463.stm

[forever_shadow]

UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Grandmother at 26
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/430000/images/_432463_maternity300.jpg
Rotherham is a teenage pregnancy hotspot
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Britain's youngest grandmother has spoken of her shock over learning that her 12-year-old daughter had given birth.

The 26-year-old woman said she had been devastated by the news but intended to support her daughter and baby grandson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/linkbox.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/newsid_342000/342989.stm)http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gifThe youngster, who is in her second year at comprehensive school, had the baby in the bathroom of their home in Rotherham, South Yorkshire on Thursday.
She had not known she was pregnant.
The girl and child were taken to Rotherham District General Hospital, where they are both said to be doing well.
'No idea'
The baby's grandmother, who gave birth herself at 14, told a news conference at Rotherham police station: "We had no idea she was pregnant. Nobody in the family did.
"She had put on a little bit of weight but we didn't suspect anything.
"I couldn't believe it when it started happening and I even threatened to smack an ambulance man when he said she had given birth."
The family revealed the youngster had been to see her GP in the weeks before the birth but the pregnancy had not been detected.
The day before the birth the girl was at hospital for a dental visit, but again nobody realised anything was amiss.
The grandmother, who lives in a council house, described her daughter as a normal youngster who enjoyed playing on her bike, watching television and listening to pop music. Her favourite group is Boyzone.
The child's grandfather added: "It would have been better if this had happened in a few years' time but we won't turn her away.
"We are obviously all upset but our main concern has to be the child and the baby in hospital. We just want to be left alone to get on with things."
Police and social services are investigating and will question the girl about the identity of the father.
'Victim of crime'
A spokesman for South Yorkshire Police said: "We are treating this as a 12-year-old girl who is a victim of crime.
"The sexual offences unit is investigating but we will not be able to speak to the girl until after the weekend. Her welfare is paramount."
Rotherham has one of Britain's highest incidences of teenage pregnancy. Only this week its health authority announced that more cash was being provided to tackle the problem.
In some parts of the town, one in six pregnancies involve girls under the age of 19.
Britain's previous youngest grandmother is understood to have been 28 when her daughter gave birth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/432463.stm


Yes how terrible. :(

Just because a girl is physically capable of getting pregnant doesn't make it right. I don't know what you intend to prove here, but it makes me sad to see young KIDS giving birth. I do not condone it nor will I defend it. What's your point?

[AbuMubarak]

That's funny given all the statistics of forced child brides in Arab/Muslims countries these days: Egypt, Afghanastan, etc. All you have to do is google child brides/arab countries to see what I mean. :(

I don't have any preconceived biased and double standards against Islam. I have a problem with the CULTURAL practice still prevelant today in arab countries which does not seem to be looked down upon by Muslims as a whole. Anyone who denies that this is going on is either living under a rock or very very blind. It's a horrible horrible CULTURAL practice and needs to STOP. Christians and Muslims alike, that is. It's wrong on BOTH sides.

so the problem then becomes, when is a woman ready for marriage (at least from a physical sense)

and that has been answered thousands of years ago,

when she is able to bear children, she is physically ready for marriage and sex

for you to say otherwise is now you putting YOUR cultural biases in the equation

[AbuMubarak]

UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Grandmother at 26
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/430000/images/_432463_maternity300.jpg
Rotherham is a teenage pregnancy hotspot
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gif
Britain's youngest grandmother has spoken of her shock over learning that her 12-year-old daughter had given birth.

The 26-year-old woman said she had been devastated by the news but intended to support her daughter and baby grandson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/linkbox.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/special_report/1999/04/99/teen_pregnancy/newsid_342000/342989.stm)http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/nothing.gifThe youngster, who is in her second year at comprehensive school, had the baby in the bathroom of their home in Rotherham, South Yorkshire on Thursday.
She had not known she was pregnant.
The girl and child were taken to Rotherham District General Hospital, where they are both said to be doing well.
'No idea'
The baby's grandmother, who gave birth herself at 14, told a news conference at Rotherham police station: "We had no idea she was pregnant. Nobody in the family did.
"She had put on a little bit of weight but we didn't suspect anything.
"I couldn't believe it when it started happening and I even threatened to smack an ambulance man when he said she had given birth."
The family revealed the youngster had been to see her GP in the weeks before the birth but the pregnancy had not been detected.
The day before the birth the girl was at hospital for a dental visit, but again nobody realised anything was amiss.
The grandmother, who lives in a council house, described her daughter as a normal youngster who enjoyed playing on her bike, watching television and listening to pop music. Her favourite group is Boyzone.
The child's grandfather added: "It would have been better if this had happened in a few years' time but we won't turn her away.
"We are obviously all upset but our main concern has to be the child and the baby in hospital. We just want to be left alone to get on with things."
Police and social services are investigating and will question the girl about the identity of the father.
'Victim of crime'
A spokesman for South Yorkshire Police said: "We are treating this as a 12-year-old girl who is a victim of crime.
"The sexual offences unit is investigating but we will not be able to speak to the girl until after the weekend. Her welfare is paramount."
Rotherham has one of Britain's highest incidences of teenage pregnancy. Only this week its health authority announced that more cash was being provided to tackle the problem.
In some parts of the town, one in six pregnancies involve girls under the age of 19.
Britain's previous youngest grandmother is understood to have been 28 when her daughter gave birth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/432463.stm
chock up another one for secular/irreligious society

though i have no problem with this girl having a baby, the fact that her mother didnt know her daughter was having sex, that they are all surprised by the age

you have your children listen to that filth called music, they watch filth called television, they go out to see filth called movies, and you wonder why they are fornicating?

duh

[forever_shadow]

so the problem then becomes, when is a woman ready for marriage (at least from a physical sense)

and that has been answered thousands of years ago,

when she is able to bear children, she is physically ready for marriage and sex

for you to say otherwise is now you putting YOUR cultural biases in the equation

And there you go dismissing SCIENCE in place of your own CULTURAL BIASES.

It has been PROVEN that sex with CHILDREN and the consequence of giving birth at a young age has resulted in harmful physical damage, including the possibility of DEATH.

Just because some CHILDREN gave birth to babies without any physical harm does not dismiss the SCIENCE and the fact that CHILDREN who have sex and give birth at an early age are at a greater risk of health problems and even can die from giving birth because their bodies are not ready for such a thing.

[dhakiyya]

Actually you're wrong about this. A girl (becoming a woman) won't start to ovulate until her body is ready for having a baby. A woman of any age can die in childbirth, in fact the risk is greater the *older* the mother.

Children can't give birth to babies. Their ovaries don't release eggs yet. Some children become women very young, in tribal socieities where they start having sex whenever they want with no social stigma, you find girls as young as ten having sex of their own free will, even before they start ovulating. The biological optimum for bearing a child is seventeen. Girls who go through puberty earlier become capable of bearing children at twelve or thirteen, maybe even younger.

You are the one whose cultural biases are making you dismiss science.

[forever_shadow]

Actually you're wrong about this. A girl (becoming a woman) won't start to ovulate until her body is ready for having a baby. A woman of any age can die in childbirth, in fact the risk is greater the *older* the mother.

Children can't give birth to babies. Their ovaries don't release eggs yet. Some children become women very young, in tribal socieities where they start having sex whenever they want with no social stigma, you find girls as young as ten having sex of their own free will, even before they start ovulating. The biological optimum for bearing a child is seventeen. Girls who go through puberty earlier become capable of bearing children at twelve or thirteen, maybe even younger.

You are the one whose cultural biases are making you dismiss science.

http://www.ripnroll.com/teenpregnancy.htm#Teenage%20Mother



Health Risks to the Teenage Mother

The teenage mother has special problems, physically and emotionally.

* The death rate from pregnancy complications is much higher among girls who give birth under age 15 than among older mothers.
* The teenage mother is more likely to be undernourished and suffer premature or prolonged labor.
* During the first three months of pregnancy; seven out of ten pregnant teenagers do not see a doctor or go to a clinic.
* Poor eating habits, smoking, alcohol and drugs increase the risk of having a baby with health problems.

Health Risks to the Baby

The baby growing inside a mother is in a most dependent, and often risky, place. Low birth weight is the most immediate health problem. Babies born to teenagers often are born too small, too soon. Low birth weight babies may have the following:

* Immature organ systems (brain, lungs, heart).
* Difficulty controlling body temperature and blood sugar levels.
* Mental retardation.
* A risk of dying in early infancy that is much higher than among normal weight babies (5 1/2 pounds or more).
More information on the health risks:

http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/mch/mh/techareas/adolescent.html

[AbuMubarak]

sound like the same doctors who say there are health risks in circumsicion

[dhakiyya]

well forever shadow you didn't read the information you gave very carefully, they link the higher death rate of young mothers on malnutrition, not seeing doctors or going to the clinic, poor eating habits, smoking, drugs and alcohol. The greater risks to the baby would be the result of the same, alcohol and smoking in particular are linked very strongly with low birth weight, birth defects and in the case of alcohol mental retartation also.

womens bodies start to ovulate when they are physically ready to have babies. Any mother who lives off macdonalds, fizzy drinks, cigarettes and alcohol whilst pregnant, and failing to see doctors or midwives will be putting her own and her baby's lives at risk.

The title of the quote should be "health risks to western unmarried teenage mothers"

[AbuMubarak]

The title of the quote should be "health risks to western unmarried teenage mothers"
omg

another chink in the armor of western dominance in the world

aint gonna be much left

we will refer to it as "the west that was" you guys are too funny

[Supernova Nebula]

Human biological and physiological set up varies from race to race and as a matter of fact from individual to individual. I had a friend when I was 12, she was large for her age (she had an 18 year old female body at 12 I would say) and told me that she had her first periods at 10 or 11 if Im not wrong but surely she had her first periods at a very young age.

Here in England, some girls look really older than their age, I always walk past the 6th Form school and was shocked at first when looking at the size of the school girls there, whereas in my country, a 16 year old girl would look like England's 12 year old girls.The socio-cultural aspect of the arab society during the Prophet's time should also be taken into consideration. Other than that, I've mentioned the wisdom behind the marriage and another poster who referred to what Sheikh Anwar Awlaki says concerning it and as far as I know, the general companions and the arabs at that time in general had no qualms whatsoever about the marriage of Prophet to Aisha.

The marriage could have been consummated when Aisha reached her puberty at 9 but pregnancy did not happen at the early period of their marriage.

make up, i mean.

[forever_shadow]

Adolescent Maternal Health
Every year, millions of young women, recently children themselves, give birth. These mothers and their children face increased risks of mortality and illness, fewer educational opportunities, and a life of poverty. Fortunately, proven interventions are available to prevent this unnecessary death and disability and address the challenges young women face in preventing early pregnancy and childbirth.


The Risks of Early Motherhood

Increasing the age at first birth for a woman will increase her chances of survival. Currently, pregnancy and childbirth complications are the leading cause of death for women 15 to 19 years old in developing countries. Children born to mothers in their twenties are fifty percent lower risk of dying by their first birthday than children born to teenaged mothers. Young mothers are not often physically mature enough to deliver a baby, leaving her and her child at risk for death or disabilities from obstructed labor, fistula, premature birth, or low birthweight.

While no young mother in developing countries is free from the risks of early births, teen mothers and their children in sub-Saharan Africa have the highest mortality rates. Early marriage and childbirth is also highest in the sub-Saharan Africa region. Early motherhood is compounded by the high prevalence of HIV/AIDS among teenage girls as compared to teenage boys in the region. Physical attributes and social customs increase a young woman’s chances of contracting HIV and then passing the infection to her newborn. HIV transmission is twice as likely from man to woman as it is from woman to man. Sexual relationships controlled by men, trans generational sex, transactional sex, and “sugar daddies” are not uncommon relationships that explain why young people 15-24 years old have the highest incidence rate of HIV/AIDS and infections among young women outpace that of their male counterparts. Due to the high rates of HIV/AIDS among adolescent women, children born to young mothers have an increased risk of being born with the virus.

emphasis mine.