Help locating some hadiths with ref?

[Arrakis]

I am looking for the hadith that says a man has to beat his wife as light as a feather/miswak.

I am also looking for the last sermon, including references as so far no reference.

Any help would ne much appreciated. :up:

[Z-Blade]

I am looking for the hadith that says a man has to beat his wife as light as a feather/miswak.

I am also looking for the last sermon, including references as so far no reference.

Any help would ne much appreciated. :up:

The hadith you are talking about is non-existant as far as I know. Though there are many ahadith on being kind to your wives and the Prophet :saw: has said "The best among you are those who are the best to their wives" (or something like that)! So from that alone we can deduce wife-beating is wrong.

Also, the hadith you are asking for is in fact a Ayat in the Quran, where the Prophet Ayyub (AS) had to fulfill an oath of punishing his wife with a 100 lashes, but instead Allah helped him to fulfill it via 1 strike with a soft feather duster kind of thing:

38:44
وَخُذْ بِيَدِكَ ضِغْثًا فَاضْرِب بِّهِ وَلَا تَحْنَثْ إِنَّا وَجَدْنَاهُ صَابِرًا نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ
(http://en.quran.nu/quran/sound/ayat/038/044.rm)"And take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith (your wife), and break not your oath. Truly! We found him patient. How excellent (a) slave! Verily, he was ever oft-returning in repentance (to Us)!



(And take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith (your wife), and break not your oath.) Ayyub, peace be upon him, got angry with his wife and was upset about something she had done, so he swore an oath that if Allah healed him, he would strike her with one hundred blows. When Allah healed him, how could her service, mercy, compassion and kindness be repaid with a beating So Allah showed him a way out, which was to take a bundle of thin grass, with one hundred stems, and hit her with it once. Thus he fulfilled his oath and avoided breaking his vow. This was the solution and way out for one who had Taqwa of Allah and turned to Him in repentance. Allah says:

﴿إِنَّا وَجَدْنَـهُ صَابِراً نِّعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ﴾

(Truly, We found him patient. How excellent a servant! Verily, he was ever oft-returning in repentance (to Us)!) Allah praised and commanded him, saying,

﴿نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ﴾

(How excellent a servant! Verily, he was ever oft-returning in repentance (to Us)!) Allah says:

﴿فَإِذَا بَلَغْنَ أَجَلَهُنَّ فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ فَارِقُوهُنَّ بِمَعْرُوفٍ وَأَشْهِدُواْ ذَوَى عَدْلٍ مِّنكُمْ وَأَقِيمُواْ الشَّهَـدَةَ لِلَّهِ ذَلِكُمْ يُوعَظُ بِهِ مَن كَانَ يُؤْمِنُ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً - وَيَرْزُقْهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَهُوَ حَسْبُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بَـلِغُ أَمْرِهِ قَدْ جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدْراً ﴾
(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty). And He will provide him from (sources) he never could imagine. And whosoever puts his trust in Allah, then He will suffice him. Verily, Allah will accomplish his purpose. Indeed Allah has set a measure for all things.) (65:2-3)



Here's the info on the last sermon:

"The Last Sermon of the Prophet



The last sermon of the Prophet-peace be upon him- is known as Khutbatul Wada'. It is mentioned in almost all books of Hadith. Following Ahadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari refer to the sermon and quote part of it. See Al-Bukhari, Hadith 1623, 1626, 6361) Sahih of Imam Muslim also refers to this sermon in Hadith number 98. Imam al-Tirmidhi has mentioned this sermon in Hadith nos. 1628, 2046, 2085. Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has given us the longest and perhaps the most complete version of this sermon in his Masnud, Hadith no. 19774.

This Khutbah of the Prophet-peace be upon him- was long and it contained much guidance and instructions on many issues. The Prophet-peace be upon him- gave this sermon in front of a large gathering of people during Hajj.

Whosoever heard whatever part of the sermon reported it and later some scholars put it together. It is a great khutbah and we should all pay attention to its message and guidance. Following are the basic points mentioned in this khutbah:O People
Lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefor listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

O People
Just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest); therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.

Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all interest due to Abbas Ibn ‘Abd al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.

Beware of Satan for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People
It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in
kindness. Do treat you women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with anyone of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People
Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat.
Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefor, do injustice to yourselves.
Remember one day you will appear before Allah and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone. People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."
"

http://www.soundvision.com/info/hajj/lastsermon.asp

Wassalam.

[PRISSY]

Just curious to know whether ahadees are the absolute words of prophet Muhammad or are they narrations foretold by sahaba that got collected, compiled and written down by certain scholars long after prophet's death? It would also be helpful to know who was the first man to collect these and from whom? Thanks.

[al-ghazalli]

Just curious to know whether ahadees are the absolute words of prophet Muhammad or are they narrations foretold by sahaba that got collected, compiled and written down by certain scholars long after prophet's death? It would also be helpful to know who was the first man to collect these and from whom? Thanks.

The hadiths are the words of the Prophet of Allah (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him). The hadiths were written down by his Sahaba (Companions) during the his lifetime.

Before Sahih Bukhari was even written the musnad of Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud Tayalisi, Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, Ibn Abi Shayba, before them;

the Muwtta of Imam Malik, before that the Musnad of Zuhri (edited by Dr Mustafa Azami), before that the Sahifa of Hamama ibn Munabbih (edited by Dr. Hamidullah rahimahullah), Hammam b. Munabbih was the student of Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (May Allah be Pleased with Him) The Sahifa Sadiqa of the Sahabi Sayyiduna Abdullah Ibn Amr ibn As (May Allah be Pleased with Him), these books are all available and the last two date back to the time of the Sahaba.

Hope that helps inshallah.

[Z-Blade]

Just curious to know whether ahadees are the absolute words of prophet Muhammad or are they narrations foretold by sahaba that got collected, compiled and written down by certain scholars long after prophet's death? It would also be helpful to know who was the first man to collect these and from whom? Thanks.

:salams,

Ahadith are the sayings of the Prophet :saw:. They were memorised by the close companions and narrated, just as the Quran was memorised and recited and written down. Though obviously the Quran is 100% authentic whereas you have strong and authentic to weak hadith.

There is no one man that collected ahadith, but many. The traditions of the Prophet :saw: were passed down from the most reliable people (in terms of memory and honesty) and that's why ahadith are used in Islam. They are like the indirect revelation of Allah, since everything the Prophet :saw: did was like revelation since he :saw: only did what Allah was pleased with. Also, we have this hadith:

Hadith - Reported by Ahmad, Abu Daawood, Ibn Maajah and at-Tirmidhee, who declared it hasan. The Prophet http://muttaqun.com/graphics/saaws-long.gifsaid, “There will come a time when a man sitting upon his couch is told a hadeeth and he replies, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. What we find in it to be lawful, we take as lawful and what we find in it to be forbidden, we take as forbidden.’ Indeed, what the Messenger of Allah has forbidden is like what Allah has forbidden.”

Wassalam.

[PRISSY]

The hadiths are the words of the Prophet of Allah (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him).Ahadith are the sayings of the Prophet.If ahadith are the actual words or sayings of the prophet or indirectly Allah's words as professed, then why are they called either sahih (authentic) or daeef (weak)? Besides, much of the ahadith have been claimed untrue or plain nonsense by the Islamic scholars and clerics themselves.

The hadiths were written down by his Sahaba (Companions) during the his lifetime.They were memorised by the close companions and narrated, just as the Quran was memorised and recited and written down.It seems you have conflcting views. According to the very sahaba of prophet (as stated in some ahadith), prophet never ordained anything to be written of him. I've read some of the ahadith collections by Bukhari, Malik, Saleh, Dawood and Tirmidhi many years ago and obviously a lot of them keep popping up at various Muslim forums as reminders.

[al-ghazalli]

If ahadith are the actual words or sayings of the prophet or indirectly Allah's words as professed, then why are they called either sahih (authentic) or daeef (weak)? Besides, much of the ahadith have been claimed untrue or plain nonsense by the Islamic scholars and clerics themselves.

Err I think you might be under some illusions, no Islamic Cleric in his right mind has ever dismissed hadith, our deen would be incomplete without them. We have thousands of hadith which are Sahih and then we also have hadiths which are mutwatir (mass transmitted). Perhaps if you could quote any reliable Islamic Scholar in regards to their stance on hadith we could we look into it inshallah.

It seems you have conflcting views. According to the very sahaba of prophet (as stated in some ahadith), prophet never ordained anything to be written of him.

Are these hadiths Sahih or Daif, what was the occasion for him uttering such a statement? A hadith can not be taken literally unless you have read the commentary on it by our classical scholars. Hadiths can also be aborgated by other hadiths. The science is complex maybe you should read a book on Usul al-Hadith to understand the system.

[Brother Adam]

there is a hadeeth once prophet saw was doing wudhu when some one asked with wat shoud we hit our wives with prophet there after hed his miswak up and said with this.

[giordano]

I am looking for the hadith that says a man has to beat his wife as light as a feather/miswak.

I am also looking for the last sermon, including references as so far no reference.

Any help would ne much appreciated. :up:As mentioned by others, it's not a hadith; the wife-beating ayah is in the Quran

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

There are also several ahadith which state that wives should not be struck with anything heavier than a miswak.

[giordano]

I am looking for the hadith that says a man has to beat his wife as light as a feather/miswak.

I am also looking for the last sermon, including references as so far no reference.

Any help would ne much appreciated. :up: The hadith you're looking for doesn't refer to Mohammed's wives, but to a servant. Mohammed was angry with her, and said: 'If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have beaten you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning stick)' [as reported by Ibn Majah, by Ibn Hibban, in his Sahih and by Ibn Sa`d in his Tabaqat].

[Arrakis]

As mentioned by others, it's not a hadith; the wife-beating ayah is in the Quran

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

There are also several ahadith which state that wives should not be struck with anything heavier than a miswak.


I would be much obliged if you could show them to me as I am not having any luck finding it.

It has to be about wives, as people always mention it in regards to wives, but when they mention it they never give a reference.

[Aamaal]

I am looking for the hadith that says a man has to beat his wife as light as a feather/miswak.

I am also looking for the last sermon, including references as so far no reference.

Any help would ne much appreciated. :up:

When Allah uses the word 'adriboohunna'- some have argued that it is not in the symbolic sense at all (light beating) but rather relates to seperating from your spouse to allow time for reconcilliation.

Here is something related I posted earlier (more detailed)
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2192481&postcount=30

I thought I should clarify the fact that symbolic 'beating' is not the only interpretation of the verse.

Ok, about the actual hadith. What giordano says is correct. And it highlights how much the Prophet disliked the idea of physically (symbolic or not) correcting a women. Looking at this Hadith, Imam Shafi decided that the maximum a man could therefore, hit his wife if she refused to guard her chastity/ or the roles ordained by Allah (swt), was with a miswak. This however, was never stated by the Prophet (saw) as the Hadiths I quote (with reference) in the link ^ I gave you show how he was against any sort of wife beating (as well as the fact that he had never done so to his wives himself).
Therefore, the Siwak opinion is not present in any of the Sahih Hadiths nor is it something that the Prophet (saw) gave permission to use if the last step to prevent a divorce is to be taken. This (the use fo the siwak) is what scholars (i.e Imam Shafi) have assumed becuase of the Prophet's (saw) disaproval of wife beating/ any type of hitting. Because of the slave and siwak hadith, people have assumed that perhaps this instrument may be permissable to use (and hence, demonstrates that it can only be a 'tap')
However, what people who believe that the verse has been interpreted wrong and that it should be 'sepation from the wife' say is that the Prophet's attitude shows how even symbolic beating is not allowed.

Here is another link that explains this:
http://dialogtube.com/beating_yes.htm

What I want to re-iterate is that even if you take the opinion of 'light/symbolic' beating then this is only in extreme circumstances (i.e to prevent the breakdown of the marriage)

[giordano]

I would be much obliged if you could show them to me as I am not having any luck finding it.

It has to be about wives, as people always mention it in regards to wives, but when they mention it they never give a reference.I suppose that there is here a "reasoning by analogy" (quyas). If the miswak-limitation is valid for beating servant girls/slaves "a fortiori" it is valid for beating wives.

In fact, this Quranic ayah (4.34) authorising wife-beating is the subject of heated controversy; so to say, it has become politically "incorrect".

While, say, 200 years ago beating your wife was considered acceptable behaviour in most cultures, now it's not so anymore.

Therefore, for example the Quran translation by Yusuf Ali has: "beat her (lightly)"; but the (lightly) is Yusuf Ali's addition.

Nowadays, some scholars interpret the verse as "separate from her" (but this is, of course a repetition in the context of the ayah).

[giordano]

By the way, that's "qiyas" (reasoning by analogy), not "quyas".

How do you edit your own posts ?

[Z-Blade]

Nowadays, some scholars interpret the verse as "separate from her" (but this is, of course a repetition in the context of the ayah).

:salams,

That's very true, wonder why these people who said this didn't realise it's a repetition?

Click on edit underneath your post to edit it.

[`asiya]

The hadith you are talking about is non-existant as far as I know.

Wassalam.

:wswrwb: it is narrated by ibn abass, and can be found in tafsir of the Quran, ibn abass comentary on this ayat is also mentioned by hasan al basri, the sources of our deen are not only from the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam but also the narrations of his companions.

[Z-Blade]

:wswrwb: it is narrated by ibn abass, and can be found in tafsir of the Quran, ibn abass comentary on this ayat is also mentioned by hasan al basri, the sources of our deen are not only from the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam but also the narrations of his companions.

I know what the companions say are like hadith since their words are approved by the Rasul :saw: and so we take from them. However, I could not find the hadith you mentioned in the tafsir :S:


Allah said,

﴿وَاللَّـتِى تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ﴾

(As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct,) meaning, the woman from whom you see ill conduct with her husband, such as when she acts as if she is above her husband, disobeys him, ignores him, dislikes him, and so forth. When these signs appear in a woman, her husband should advise her and remind her of Allah's torment if she disobeys him. Indeed, Allah ordered the wife to obey her husband and prohibited her from disobeying him, because of the enormity of his rights and all that he does for her. The Messenger of Allah said,

«لَوْ كُنْتُ آمِرًا أَحَدًا أَنْ يَسْجُدَ لِأَحَدٍ، لَأَمَرْتُ الْمَرْأَةَ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ لِزَوْجِهَا، مِنْ عِظَمِ حَقِّهِ عَلَيْهَا»

(If I were to command anyone to prostrate before anyone, I would have commanded the wife to prostrate before her husband, because of the enormity of his right upon her.) Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«إِذَا دَعَا الرَّجُلُ امْرَأَتَهُ إِلى فِرَاشِهِ فَأَبَتْ عَلَيْهِ، لَعَنَتْهَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ حَتَّى تُصْبِح»

(If the man asks his wife to come to his bed and she declines, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) Muslim recorded it with the wording,

«إِذَا بَاتَتِ الْمَرْأَةُ هَاجِرَةً فِرَاشَ زَوْجِهَا، لَعَنَتْهَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ حَتَّى تُصْبِح»

(If the wife goes to sleep while ignoring her husband's bed, the angels will keep cursing her until the morning.) This is why Allah said,

﴿وَاللَّـتِى تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ﴾

(As to those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them (first)). Allah's statement,

﴿وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِى الْمَضَاجِعِ﴾

(abandon them in their beds,) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said "The abandonment refers to not having intercourse with her, to lie on her bed with his back to her.'' Several others said similarly. As-Suddi, Ad-Dahhak, `Ikrimah, and Ibn `Abbas, in another narration, added, "Not to speak with her or talk to her.'' The Sunan and Musnad compilers recorded that Mu`awiyah bin Haydah Al-Qushayri said, "O Allah's Messenger! What is the right that the wife of one of us has on him'' The Prophet said,

«أَنْ تُطْعِمَهَا إِذَا طَعِمْتَ، وَتَكْسُوَهَا إِذَا اكْتَسَيْتَ، وَلَا تَضْرِبِ الْوَجْهَ، وَلَا تُقَبِّحْ، وَلَا تَهْجُرْ إِلَّا فِي الْبَيْت»

(To feed her when you eat, cloth her when you buy clothes for yourself, refrain from striking her face or cursing her, and to not abandon her, except in the house.) Allah's statement,

﴿وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ﴾

(beat them) means, if advice and ignoring her in the bed do not produce the desired results, you are allowed to discipline the wife, without severe beating. Muslim recorded that Jabir said that during the Farewell Hajj, the Prophet said;

«وَاتَّقُوا اللهَ فِي النِّسَاءِ، فَإِنَّهُنَّ عِنْدَكُمْ عَوَانٍ، وَلَكُمْ عَلَيْهِنَّ أَنْ لَا يُوطِئْنَ فُرُشَكُمْ أَحَدًا تَكْرَهُونَهُ،فَإِنْ فَعَلْنَ ذَلِكَ فَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ضَرْبًا غَيْرَ مُبَرِحٍ، وَلَهُنَّ عَلَيْكُمْ رِزْقُهُنَّ وَكِسْوَتُهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوف»
(Fear Allah regarding women, for they are your assistants. You have the right on them that they do not allow any person whom you dislike to step on your mat. However, if they do that, you are allowed to discipline them lightly. They have a right on you that you provide them with their provision and clothes, in a reasonable manner.) Ibn `Abbas and several others said that the Ayah refers to a beating that is not violent. Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that it means, a beating that is not severe.


Allah said,

﴿فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً﴾

(but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance),) meaning, when the wife obeys her husband in all that Allah has allowed, then no means of annoyance from the husband are allowed against his wife. Therefore, in this case, the husband does not have the right to beat her or shun her bed. Allah's statement,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيّاً كَبِيراً﴾
(Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.) reminds men that if they transgress against their wives without justification, then Allah, the Ever Most High, Most Great, is their Protector, and He will exert revenge on those who transgress against their wives and deal with them unjustly.

So do you know which tafsir is it, if not Ibn Kathir? :o

Wassalam.

[`asiya]

So do you know which tafsir is it, if not Ibn Kathir? :o

Wassalam.

:wswrwb: tafsir al tabari :up:

[PRISSY]

If ahadith are the actual words or sayings of the prophet or indirectly Allah's words as professed, then why are they called either sahih (authentic) or daeef (weak)?I didn't get a concrete answer (especially as underlined) to the above but rather sidetracked to exalt ahadith in general.

Are ALL ahadith divine? How does one configure its authencity to become either literal or metaphorical and authentic or weak? What has mutawattir (mass trasmittal) got anything to do with TRUTH? In relations to Quranic verse 6:116, 12:106, 16:83, & 19:73, does anyone think that the majority must be always right? Has anyone been a true witness or are they simply hypothically elucidating without proper knowledge of its certainty just because certain sayings from "companions" had been collected, compiled and then written in a book form and that too an ancient book in Arabic?

[Sulaiman Harun]

:start:

:salams

PRISSY said:

Are ALL ahadith divine? How does one configure its authencity to become either literal or metaphorical and authentic or weak? What has mutawattir (mass trasmittal) got anything to do with TRUTH?

Some ahadith are revelations, whilst most are PRACTICAL FORM of Qur'an.

for hadith to be sahih, hasan sahih or hasan one of the preconditions is that it MUST NOT contradict Qur'an.

A mutawatir hadith is one which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together.

Imam Al-Ghazali (RAH) (d. 505) stipulates that a mutawatir narration be known by the sizeable number of its reporters equally in the beginning, in the middle and at the end.30 He is correct in this stipulation because some narrations or ideas, although known as mutawatir among some people, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, originally have no tawatur. There is no precise definition for a "large number of reporters"; although the numbers four, five, seven, ten, twelve, forty and seventy, among others, have all been variously suggested as a minimum, the exact number is irrelevant (some reporters, e.g. Imams of Hadith, carry more weight anyway than others who are their contemporaries): the important condition is that the possibility of coincidence or "organized falsehood" be obviously negligible.

Examples of mutawatir practices are the five daily prayers, fasting, zakat, the Hajj and recitation of the Qur'an. Among the verbal mutawatir ahadith, the following has been reported by at least sixty-two Companions from the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), and has been widely-known amongst the Muslims throughout the ages: "Whoever invents a lie and attributes it to me intentionally, let him prepare his seat in the Fire." Ahadith related to the description of the Haud Kauthar (the Basin of Abundant Goodness) in the Hereafter, raising the hands at certain postures during prayer, rubbing wet hands on the leather socks during ablution, revelation of the Qur'an in seven modes, and the prohibition of every intoxicant are further examples of verbal mutawatir ahadith


In relations to Quranic verse 6:116, 12:106, 16:83, & 19:73, does anyone think that the majority must be always right?

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. {Noble Qur'an 6:116}

In this ayah Allah (SWT) is telling us that most people on this eart are misguided. What is the Muslim population on earth? 1.6-1.8 billion? And non-Muslims population? 6-1.6/1.8= 4.2-4.4 billion Now who's the more in number, the Muslims or non-Muslims?

And most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute partners unto Him {Noble Qur'an 12:106}

Clearly this ayah is for mushriks

They recognise the Grace of Allah, yet they deny it (by worshipping others besides Allah) and most of them are disbelievers (deny the Prophethood of Muhammad :saw:) {Noble Qur'an 16:83}

Once again, this ayah is for the kuffar

And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad :saw: who have a hard life): "Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation)." {Noble Qur'an 19:73}

Once again, this ayah is for the kuffar

Has anyone been a true witness or are they simply hypothically elucidating without proper knowledge of its certainty just because certain sayings from "companions" had been collected, compiled and then written in a book form and that too an ancient book in Arabic?

Do you think the Sahabah (RAA) were not trustworthy (na'udhubiLlah)? Didn't Allah (SWT) preserve the Qur'an through the Sahabah (RAA)?

[the_middle_road]

:wswrwb: tafsir al tabari :up:

This is the relevant part taken from Tafsir al-Tabari:

حَدَّثَنَا الْمُثَنَّى , قَالَ : ثنا إِسْحَاق , قَالَ : ثنا اِبْن عُيَيْنَة , عَنْ اِبْن جُرَيْج , عَنْ عَطَاء , قَالَ : قُلْت لِابْنِ عَبَّاس : مَا الضَّرْب غَيْر الْمُبَرِّح , قَالَ : السِّوَاك وَشِبْهه يَضْرِبهَابِهِ . .

Rough translation: 'Ata said: I said to ibn 'Abbas: What is the hitting without mubarrih? He said: The siwak and what resembles it, hit her with it.

Taken from here: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=4&nAya=34

:wswrwb:

[muslimuk]

I didn't get a concrete answer (especially as underlined) to the above but rather sidetracked to exalt ahadith in general.

Are ALL ahadith divine? How does one configure its authencity to become either literal or metaphorical and authentic or weak? What has mutawattir (mass trasmittal) got anything to do with TRUTH? In relations to Quranic verse 6:116, 12:106, 16:83, & 19:73, does anyone think that the majority must be always right? Has anyone been a true witness or are they simply hypothically elucidating without proper knowledge of its certainty just because certain sayings from "companions" had been collected, compiled and then written in a book form and that too an ancient book in Arabic?

if you are a muslim you should ask a scholar or someone with more knwoledge than you in your local area.. sahi daieef refer to strength of hadith.. read about science of hadeeth here . http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/hadeeth/scienceofhadith/atit.html

[PRISSY]

:start:PRISSY said:

Some ahadith are revelations, whilst most are PRACTICAL FORM of Qur'an.

for hadith to be sahih, hasan sahih or hasan one of the preconditions is that it MUST NOT contradict Qur'an.

A mutawatir hadith is one which is reported by such a large number of people that they cannot be expected to agree upon a lie, all of them together.

Imam Al-Ghazali (RAH) (d. 505) stipulates that a mutawatir narration be known by the sizeable number of its reporters equally in the beginning, in the middle and at the end.30 He is correct in this stipulation because some narrations or ideas, although known as mutawatir among some people, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, originally have no tawatur. There is no precise definition for a "large number of reporters"; although the numbers four, five, seven, ten, twelve, forty and seventy, among others, have all been variously suggested as a minimum, the exact number is irrelevant (some reporters, e.g. Imams of Hadith, carry more weight anyway than others who are their contemporaries): the important condition is that the possibility of coincidence or "organized falsehood" be obviously negligible.When ahadith are claimed to be the actual words of prophet Muhammad and indirectly Allah's Words, then the question of sahih, hasan, daeef, majority, minority, etc., etc., mustn't arise. That would undermine the status of prophet and Allah.

The fact is that all ahadith (over 1/2 a million+) are nothing more than oral transmissions of numerous people collected and written in book form long AFTER the death of prophet Muhammad. In other words, they are implied words of prophet and not ditto or mirrored in absolute. It is simply not possible to orally quote exact sentences, long paragraphs and stories of any one given person over a period of time and more so when passed around from person to person and from generation to generation. Even the most intelligent person who has the sharpest memory cannot possibly recall everything said in absolute exactness. That is not humanly possible. Besides, almost all ahadith are not the direct sayings of any one person either as witnessed but he-said she-said proclammations over long periods of time.

And if you obey most of those on earth, they will mislead you far away from Allah's Path. They follow nothing but conjectures, and they do nothing but lie. {Noble Qur'an 6:116}

In this ayah Allah (SWT) is telling us that most people on this eart are misguided. What is the Muslim population on earth? 1.6-1.8 billion? And non-Muslims population? 6-1.6/1.8= 4.2-4.4 billion Now who's the more in number, the Muslims or non-Muslims?

And most of them believe not in Allah except that they attribute partners unto Him {Noble Qur'an 12:106}

Clearly this ayah is for mushriks

They recognise the Grace of Allah, yet they deny it (by worshipping others besides Allah) and most of them are disbelievers (deny the Prophethood of Muhammad :saw:) {Noble Qur'an 16:83}

Once again, this ayah is for the kuffar

And when Our Clear Verses are recited to them, those who disbelieve (the rich and strong among the pagans of Quraish who live a life of luxury) say to those who believe (the weak, poor companions of Prophet Muhammad :saw: who have a hard life): "Which of the two groups (i.e. believers and disbelievers) is best in (point of) position and as regards station (place of council for consultation)." {Noble Qur'an 19:73}

Once again, this ayah is for the kuffar
In my understanding, the above verses are general commands and it does not mean that it does not apply to Muslims.

Do you think the Sahabah (RAA) were not trustworthy (na'udhubiLlah)? Didn't Allah (SWT) preserve the Qur'an through the Sahabah (RAA)?Well, you should be able to answer those questions yourself after reading and understanding what I mentioned above. Besides, did you know each and every narrator of he-said she-said personally in order to acclaim trustworthiness. Again, ask yourself whether ALL ahadith are direct absolute ditto words of the prophet?

[al-ghazalli]

Prissy are you really here to learn about the authenticity of the Sunnah or are you just here to propagate the stances of the Qur`an only movement?

If you are truly sincere in learning with an open mind, I can recomend several research papers authorized by prestigious University's such as Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, etc that you can read about hadith methodology and the authenticity of such a system.

I would start off with reading the Authority of the Sunnah by Mufti Taqi Usmani which would give a moderate understanding to the honest student.

Then I would move unto the Ph.D Thesis's written by Marston Speight, Joseph Schacht, N.J. Coulson, David Powers, Patricia Crone.

These and many more are perhaps the West's brightest intellectual's on Islamic Legal Thought and have specialised in the respected science of Usul al-Hadith.

These will give a balance view on west's view of hadiths in Islam.

That would undermine the status of prophet and Allah.

I find this interesting how can it undermine the status of Allah or his Prophet (Upon Him be Peace) when you basically judging on the trustworthyness of the narrator not the Prophet.

oral transmissions of numerous people collected and written in book form long AFTER the death of prophet Muhammad.

Could you please provide proof for this statement? I have already provided evidence of the Sahaba's themselves writing down hadiths in book format during the time of the Prophet.

[Z-Blade]

:wswrwb: tafsir al tabari :up:

:salams ukhti,

Do you know where I can download this from or a site where it's readily available?

I have Tafsir Ibn Kathir downloaded on my computer, so I'd appreciate that one too :D.

:jkk: for any help :up:.




حَدَّثَنَا الْمُثَنَّى , قَالَ : ثنا إِسْحَاق , قَالَ : ثنا اِبْن عُيَيْنَة , عَنْ اِبْن جُرَيْج , عَنْ عَطَاء , قَالَ : قُلْت لِابْنِ عَبَّاس : مَا الضَّرْب غَيْر الْمُبَرِّح , قَالَ : السِّوَاك وَشِبْهه يَضْرِبهَابِهِ . .








Rough translation: 'Ata said: I said to ibn 'Abbas: What is the hitting without mubarrih? He said: The siwak and what resembles it, hit her with it.


Taken from here: http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/Di...Sora=4&nAya=34 (http://quran.al-islam.com/Tafseer/DispTafsser.asp?l=arb&taf=TABARY&nType=1&nSora=4&nAya=34)



:wswrwb:


:jkk: for that. I could use the website too, but it's in Arabic not English! Do you have one in English??

@ PRISSY:

The hadith system is very rigorous and basically biographies are kept of the different people that narrate hadith and those that are in the isnad (chain) of the hadith. So that you have the biography of every single person there and so you can see how reliable they are and the strength of a hadith from it. It is the best way to keep history and the best way record something so important as sayings of the Prophet :saw: and this system has been said to be reliable and the best of its type by Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Wassalam.

[Ibn Sina]

:salams ukhti,

Do you know where I can download this from or a site where it's readily available?

I have Tafsir Ibn Kathir downloaded on my computer, so I'd appreciate that one too :D.

:jkk: for any help :up:.


The tafseer of Imam at Tabari (rahimullah) is 30 volumes long which makes it the longest exegesis of the Qur'an in history, I don't think anyone has even attempted to translate it into English.

Besides, they say that that tafseer of Imam ibn Katheer (rahimullah) is a simplified version of tafseer at Tabari.

[PRISSY]

@ Ghazalli, Blade, et al,

Let us reason and not make monkeys out yourselves and others. I can very well understand the love, obedience and respect given to prophet Muhammad. But don’t forget that he was only human, not God and neither an angel. Besides, he had no idea about millions of people living in other parts of the world far off. He was born and raised in and around Arabian desert and became a leader to his people whose language was Arabic. ALL humans make mistakes more or less regardless of their ranks and statures. This is very basic and one must keep this in mind at all times. A supernatural human with absolute knowledge, purity and powers does not exist and never has.

Now the problem lies when Muslims deliberately exalt him to such a stature as if he NEVER made a mistake or simply couldn’t have, which is plain blasphemy; because it would imply that he was not a human. Having said that, anyone relating even the slightest gesture to undermine Muhammad would result in the very person being unreliable, a liar, an enemy and perhaps killed, even if the person spoke the truth. This is unreasonable and utter foolishness, especially when it comes from the mouths of “intelligent” Muslims in today’s times. It is this very reason why ahadiths are scrutinized to prioritize its authenticity to automate the status of a prophet who cannot be imperfect as allegedly claimed, but is far from true.

It does not matter whether ten companions of prophet said the same thing once or one companion said the same thing ten times. The issue is of proper understanding, analytical reasoning and logical thinking. If ten companions said that one can fall off the cliff and take Allah’s name and he will not be hurt while one companion said ten times that if one falls off the cliff and take Allah’s name and still get hurt, then.it would be foolish to believe the ten and stupidity to act upon it. This is why we have been given the minds to reason, eyes to vision and ears to listen. All living creatures use their instincts and senses in similar fashion and in their own given ways and none of them are absolutely perfect, inclusive of us humans.

And check this out right here on this forum: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=144962. What does that tell you about the so-called companions of prophet? This is just one example and there are literally thousands of contradictory and inconsistent narrations found, many are already discussed on this forum and most ignorant conveniently label them authentic, prophet Muhammad’s actual sayings and indirect Allah’s words. Good heavens!!! I shall soon present some ahadith for your perusal and elucidation.

[Z-Blade]

The tafseer of Imam at Tabari (rahimullah) is 30 volumes long which makes it the longest exegesis of the Qur'an in history, I don't think anyone has even attempted to translate it into English.

Besides, they say that that tafseer of Imam ibn Katheer (rahimullah) is a simplified version of tafseer at Tabari.

:salams,

:jkk: for that, though I thought it was familiar - and it's because I heard Yasir Qadhi talk about it before on Islam Channel hehe :D.


Let us reason and not make monkeys out yourselves and others. I can very well understand the love, obedience and respect given to prophet Muhammad. But don’t forget that he was only human, not God and neither an angel. Besides, he had no idea about millions of people living in other parts of the world far off. He was born and raised in and around Arabian desert and became a leader to his people whose language was Arabic. ALL humans make mistakes more or less regardless of their ranks and statures. This is very basic and one must keep this in mind at all times. A supernatural human with absolute knowledge, purity and powers does not exist and never has.
...


LoL, this guy is a jackass :').

Wassalam.

[Um Abdullah]

@ Ghazalli, Blade, et al,

Let us reason and not make monkeys out yourselves and others. I can very well understand the love, obedience and respect given to prophet Muhammad. But don’t forget that he was only human, not God and neither an angel. Besides, he had no idea about millions of people living in other parts of the world far off. He was born and raised in and around Arabian desert and became a leader to his people whose language was Arabic. ALL humans make mistakes more or less regardless of their ranks and statures. This is very basic and one must keep this in mind at all times. A supernatural human with absolute knowledge, purity and powers does not exist and never has.


Do you believe he is a messenger from Allah?

After you answer then we can discuss this insha Allah.

[Um Abdullah]

.
Sunnah & Hadiths that were written during time of the Prophet (S.A.W.) & by sahabah after his death (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136194)


..
.

[Z-Blade]

Do you believe he is a messenger from Allah?

After you answer then we can discuss this insha Allah.

:salams sister,

Ummm, in case you have not noticed... he is banned :o. So he won't be answering your question any time soon inshaAllah :o... :outta:

Wassalam.