The reason why the torment of the grave is hidden from man

[Abdul-Curim]

The reason why the torment of the grave is hidden from man

Question:
Is the torment of the grave one of the matters of the unseen or of the seen world? What is the reason why it is made one of the matters of the unseen?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The torment of the grave is one of the matters of the unseen. How many people in these graves are being tormented but we do not realize it, and how many of their neighbours are being blessed with a door opened for them to Paradise, but we do not realize it? What is beneath the graves is known only to the Knower of the Unseen. The torment of the grave is one of the matters of the unseen, and were it not for the revelation that came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), we would not know anything about it. Hence when the Jewish woman entered upon ‘Aa’ishah and told her that the dead are tormented in the grave, she was alarmed, until the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came and she told him, and he confirmed that. But Allaah may cause whomsoever He wills of His slaves to see that, as He caused His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to see the two men who were being punished, one for going about spreading malicious gossip, and the other for not taking precautions to protect himself from urine.
The reasons why this is one of the matters of the unseen are as follows:
1 – Allaah is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy, for if we were to see the torment of the grave this would make our lives a misery, because if a person were to know that his father or brother or son or spouse or relative is being punished in the grave and he is not able to save him, then he would be distressed and unable to relax. So this is a blessing from Allaah.
2 – It would be a scandal for the deceased. If Allaah had concealed him and we did not know his sins, which were a matter between him and his Lord, then he died and Allaah showed us his torment, that would be a great scandal for him. So concealing him is a mercy from Allaah towards the deceased.
3 – It might become difficult to bury the dead, as it was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Were it not that you would not bury one another, I would have asked Allaah to make you hear the torment of the grave.” Narrated by Muslim, 2868.
This indicates that burial might become too difficult and people would not do it, even though if a person deserves to be punished he will be punished even if he is lying on the surface of the earth. But people might imagine that the torment only takes place when the person is buried, so they would not bury one another.
4 – If it were visible, belief in it would serve no purpose, because it would be visible and no one could deny it. And this might force all people to believe, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“So when they saw Our punishment, they said: We believe in Allaah Alone”
[Ghaafir 40:84]
So if the people saw those who had been buried and heard their screams, they would believe and none of them would disbelieve, because he would be certain that the torment is real and he would see it with his own eyes as if it were happening to him.
But the wisdom of Allaah is great, and the true believer is the one who believes with certainty what Allaah tells him more than what he sees with his own eyes, because what Allaah tells us cannot be subject to confusion or lies, but what the eyes see may be imaginary. How many people have sworn that they have seen the new crescent moon, when it was in fact a star; how many people have seen the new moon and it turned out to be a white hair on his eyebrow; how many have seen a shadow and said that it was a person coming towards him, but it turned out to be the trunk of a palm tree; how many people have seen a stationery object moving and a moving object standing still. But what Allaah tells us cannot be subject to confusion.
We ask Allaah to make us and you steadfast, for what Allaah tells us about these matters is stronger that what we can see, and concealment is in the best interests of people. And Allaah knows best.


</SPAN>Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), 2/32.

[C.G.Jung]

This is considered 'pulling the wool over one's eyes'. Claiming this is just like saying the dead are in a perpetual orgasm.

[Pro_Candy]

This is considered 'pulling the wool over one's eyes'. Claiming this is just like saying the dead are in a perpetual orgasm.

Dude, there are young people on this forum. Was that necessary?

[C.G.Jung]

Dude, there are young people on this forum. Was that necessary?

What the rhetoric? I can't make references to something just as absurd, yet well documented by anecdotal hearsay (such as the Kundalini).

Really!

[al-ghazalli]

Jazkallah Khair for the article, it is impressive how many things allude our limited minds, subhanallah.

[Bubble]

Salam

Jazak allah khair.... true say if we did see our relatives being punished we'll sooo distressed out, sometimes I worry and I pray that my deceased relatives are saved from the fires of hell and are in the heaven (coz we don't know where thay are) and thats stressful enough.

[Al-jafa]

Thx brother its realy an important matter:up:

[Pro_Candy]

What the rhetoric? I can't make references to something just as absurd, yet well documented by anecdotal hearsay (such as the Kundalini).

Really!

You could have used a different analogy, don't you think?

[C.G.Jung]

You could have used a different analogy, don't you think?

What is wrong with the analogy? I don't understand.

[C.G.Jung]

Salam

Jazak allah khair.... true say if we did see our relatives being punished we'll sooo distressed out, sometimes I worry and I pray that my deceased relatives are saved from the fires of hell and are in the heaven (coz we don't know where thay are) and thats stressful enough.

Here is something comforting. There is no Hell. Quite simple really.

[thetruth]

jzkAllah.

[jus'me]

Here is something comforting. There is no Hell. Quite simple really.

You say that with such certainty..

[C.G.Jung]

You say that with such certainty..

Like I siad, it is very easy to pull the wool over peoples eyes. One can easily find the evolution of hell in Judaism. First starting out as some shadowy underworld like Hades with no punishment, to being the garbage dump outside Jerusalem, Gehenna.

[-Fady-]

C.G Jung this is Learn about Islam not Comparative Religion, get outta here pls :)

[C.G.Jung]

C.G Jung this is Learn about Islam not Comparative Religion, get outta here pls :)

Well, if Islam makes a positive claim on the existence on something, give me something to work with. Can't learn about anything about nothing.

[-Fady-]

Well, if Islam makes a positive claim on the existence on something, give me something to work with. Can't learn about anything about nothing.

im sure youll be able to occupy your self in comparative religion, this is for Muslims and non Muslims who sincerely want to learn not those who want to argue

[C.G.Jung]

im sure youll be able to occupy your self in comparative religion, this is for Muslims and non Muslims who sincerely want to learn not those who want to argue

Learning includes disputes. It is through discussion that true understanding is reached.

[Abdul-Curim]

Learning includes disputes. It is through discussion that true understanding is reached.

you should know the difference between discussion and disputes .

your inclination to learn smacks of cynicism , due to your ignorance and prejudice .

why dont you get a copy of the quran and the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) read them and then pass your comments ?

[Tiuchiha]

I am glad that we can't hear the punishment of the grave. Prophets are made of tougher stuff than us to withstand this.

Ever notice that graves are really quiet even animals avoid it. Allah said the animals can here the torment of the grave.

[C.G.Jung]

you should know the difference between discussion and disputes.

Huh? To dispute is to engage in discussion. If you want to use other connotations, you are merely projecting.

your inclination to learn smacks of cynicism , due to your ignorance and prejudice .

Really. Care to explain? If it is cynical to engage in empirical research that is not filled in inane platitudes of belief. If god is omnipotent, he made me this way. Why? I don't know, maybe as a test for you, possibly. It would be nice to have an afterlife and fatherly figure to look upto, but it just doesnt make sense. If this is cynicism, ignorant, and predjudice. I think you have some shadow work that needs to be done.

I don't know how it is cynical, prejudice or ignorant. I hope you clarify this.

why dont you get a copy of the quran and the biography of the Prophet Muhammad (saws) read them and then pass your comments ?

A biography of Muhammad will not do anything on the matter of hell, and the Quranic statments on hell is what I am disputing. It doesn't do a good thing in backing itself up. Saying it does not make it true.

Now enough with the distraction tactics and discuss the issue of hell.

[C.G.Jung]

Ever notice that graves are really quiet even animals avoid it. Allah said the animals can here the torment of the grave.

Do you have any documentation on this besides anecdotes and hearsay. I have anecdotes to, and I have obseved squirrels and bird scurrying about in graveyards.

[C.G.Jung]

Actually I have some hearsay as well.
The Swiss psychologist Carl Jung when building his house, his daughter remarked there were dead bodies around. Interestingly enough when the foundations were being dug, a body was found. After it was inspected, it turned out he died of a gun shot wound. He was a soldier during the Napoleonic Wars.

[Abdul-Curim]

Do you have any documentation on this besides anecdotes and hearsay. I have anecdotes to, and I have obseved squirrels and bird scurrying about in graveyards.

try taking a horse in particular , preferably to xian or jewish cemetry and notice how it behaves .

[C.G.Jung]

try taking a horse in particular , preferably to xian or jewish cemetry and notice how it behaves .

How about some documentation.

[al-ghazalli]

I remember vividly one of my Professors of Philosophy stating;

Logic is bound within it's axiomatic prison - it can only go so far. We are bound by that which we can percieve.

So Islamically speaking for a Muslim science cannot take us into the ghayb (being.. .. unseen and stuff). This can only be related to us via the direct statements of Allah (swt) in wahy and our own personal connection to the ghayb.. Our soul.

[Aamaal]

Here is something comforting. There is no Hell. Quite simple really.

No not quite simple really. You do realise that you (as well as those who accept its existence) are making an inductive leap to reach your conclusion. As you can never be 100% sure until you die, what's the point arguing with people who equally beleive they are on the right?

For the sake of argument, if we assume hell does not exist, what makes you think Muslims will find that idea comforting?

[C.G.Jung]

No not quite simple really. You do realise that you (as well as those who accept its existence) are making an inductive leap to reach your conclusion. As you can never be 100% sure until you die, what's the point arguing with people who equally beleive they are on the right?

It is not an inductive leap. It is a judgement base on the lack of evidence for those who have made the positive assertion. It is the positive assertion that is the inductive leap. If nobody ever made up the concept of hell, there would be nothing to conclude on the negative. You say it is an inductive leap, but you are merely shifting the burden of proof.

For the sake of argument, if we assume hell does not exist, what makes you think Muslims will find that idea comforting?

I don't know, it is still a matter of their belief. It is quite interesting with the countless things that are made up that cannot be proven in any such manner.

If we were to make "concept" of hell not exist, well then there would be no Muslims. Who knows what the face of the world would be like if the Zoroastrians never came up with a reward and punishment system.

[C.G.Jung]

This can only be related to us via the direct statements of Allah (swt) in wahy and our own personal connection to the ghayb.. Our soul.

What direct statments from Allah?

[al-ghazalli]

What direct statments from Allah?

Wahy is a gift from God to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Them All).

But to be very frank with your brother, this is an Islamic Forum your more then welcome to stay but be mindful of our beliefs, if you do not agree with them then so be it, we are not forcing our religious beliefs on anyone and neither should you.


And May God Guide us to what Pleases Him.

[C.G.Jung]

Wahy is a gift from God to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Them All).

That does not answer my question. What is the validity of these "direct statments"?

But to be very frank with your brother, this is an Islamic Forum your more then welcome to stay but be mindful of our beliefs, if you do not agree with them then so be it, we are not forcing our religious beliefs on anyone and neither should you.

I do not see how this red herring is relevant to the discussion.

[al-ghazalli]

That does not answer my question. What is the validity of these "direct statments"?

Well if you studied Islam you would know its the very core of our religion.

Wahy is how the Qur`an was revealed to our Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) so within an Islamic framework (the four methodological frameworks) within our Usul these constitute a binding proof upon the Ummah (Muslim community).

I do not see how this red herring is relevant to the discussion.

It is very relevant since the way you have responded to the initial topic was seen as disrespectful and full of cynicism.

[Bubble]

Here is something comforting. There is no Hell. Quite simple really.

Oh thats nice to know. Shame I don't find that comforting. Say there is one wouldn't you want to prepare not going to it?

[C.G.Jung]

Well if you studied Islam you would know its the very core of our religion.

Obviously. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Wahy is how the Qur`an was revealed to our Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) so within an Islamic framework (the four methodological frameworks) within our Usul these constitute a binding proof upon the Ummah (Muslim community).

So there is no peer review or standard form of tests and procedures similar to science. Like if we were to take this to a scientific community, I am quite confident they would be skeptical to. You might call that cynical. If Islam wants to claims things as being contrete, then it must be verifiable to all groups and people, or else it open to serious questioning and doubt.

It is very relevant since the way you have responded to the initial topic was seen as disrespectful and full of cynicism.

How is it cynical. What is wrong with cynicism, if it is? My example at the beginning is using the exact same logic.

[C.G.Jung]

Oh thats nice to know. Shame I don't find that comforting. Say there is one wouldn't you want to prepare not going to it?

If a merciful and kind loving god creates such a place, and then creates a religion based of blind faith, I would be quite prepared for my trip to hell. Besides, with god being omnipotent, I am going there because that is how he wants it. I don't have a choice. Infact with god being omnipotent, I have not choice in writting this post. This is the complications involved.

[al-ghazalli]

So there is no peer review or standard form of tests and procedures similar to science. Like if we were to take this to a scientific community, I am quite confident they would be skeptical to. You might call that cynical. If Islam wants to claims things as being contrete, then it must be verifiable to all groups and people, or else it open to serious questioning and doubt.

lol peer review you forgot our belief system, it is God who created us..we are here to worship him...he is above us in every aspect we have no right to judge him or to make him conform to our limited intellect. He is our creator not the other way around.

Like I said earlier, you are free to believe in whatever you want, we do not impose our beliefs on you...but don't expect us to sit down idle while you attempt to deconstruct our faith or ridicule it.

And with God is all Success.

[Bubble]

If a merciful and kind loving god creates such a place, and then creates a religion based of blind faith, I would be quite prepared for my trip to hell. Besides, with god being omnipotent, I am going there because that is how he wants it. I don't have a choice. Infact with god being omnipotent, I have not choice in writting this post. This is the complications involved.

You do have a choice, everyone has a choice, the fact you chose to go that way is due to your ignorance. If you chose to seek god's guidance then you would have had a different view and your choice might have been different. You ignore god then god ignores you and keeps you blind which means you chose your path that you are taking.....maybe open your eyes a bit.

[C.G.Jung]

You do have a choice, everyone has a choice, the fact you chose to go that way is due to your ignorance. If you chose to seek god's guidance then you would have had a different view and your choice might have been different. You ignore god then god ignores you and keeps you blind which means you chose your path that you are taking.....maybe open your eyes a bit.

So what you are saying is that god is not omnipotent. Yes?

[dunya_or_akhira]

Allah swt is omnipotent......Allah is how Allah swt has described himself...go and read the many names and attributes of Allah swt...

[Bubble]

So what you are saying is that god is not omnipotent. Yes?

What???? He is omnipotent, he already knows what path your going and will be going, he gave you the freedom of choice and its your choice to use it wisely. Anyway

Surah 109 Al-Kafirun - Those Who Reject Faith

(In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful)

Say:O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in god, in his oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, Al-Quadar etc)
I worship not that which you worship,
Nor will you worship that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
Nor will you worship that which I worship.
To you be your way, and to me mine

I leave you to carry on disputing with others

take care insha allah

[C.G.Jung]

Allah swt is omnipotent......Allah is how Allah swt has described himself...go and read the many names and attributes of Allah swt...

Then we have no freedom of choice. If we have choice, then that gives us power. If have power, then god is not ALL powerfull (aka omnipotent).

But! Allah is omnipotent, and we have no choice as supported by the Quran.


10:99-100

YUSUFALI: If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.
PICKTHAL: And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers? It is not for any soul to believe save by the permission of Allah. He hath set uncleanness upon those who have no sense.
SHAKIR: And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand.


76:29-30

YUSUFALI: This is an admonition: Whosoever will, let him take a (straight) Path to his Lord. But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
PICKTHAL: Lo! this is an Admonishment, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord. Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: Surely this is a reminder, so whoever pleases takes to his Lord a way. And you do not please except that Allah please, surely Allah is Knowing, Wise;

[C.G.Jung]

What???? He is omnipotent, he already knows what path your going and will be going, he gave you the freedom of choice and its your choice to use it wisely.

No, what you speak of is omniscience, but of coarse, he is only omniscient because he is omnipotent. He knows the outcome because he is all powerful. If he is all powerful, then that mean nothing is created unless he creates it himself. Since all things are created by Allah, including choice, he ultimatley knows all things.

[dunya_or_akhira]

Then we have no freedom of choice. If we have choice, then that gives us power. If have power, then god is not ALL powerfull (aka omnipotent).

But! Allah is omnipotent, and we have no choice as supported by the Quran.

Hahaha,,what a joke... your whole statement about has no evidence to suggest that it is authentic....its based on your reasoning.. how about it this way...

if you have some power to make a choice, between A or B, how does that reduce the power of God?? God has power of all things

All powerful means, God has the power to do anything and therefore out of Gods power he has given us the right to choose between good and bad...it does not diminish Gods power!!!!

And yes Allah knows everything and can see, hear everything..and is above his creation...we are in a limited dimension...this is limited to this life only..once we die we enter a different dimension...that is why it is very hard to explain to mankind about the power of Allah..because our minds are limited, they were only created to serve the purpose of this life ...which is to worship Allah and live in accordance to the rules of Allah swt...

[C.G.Jung]

Hahaha,,what a joke... your whole statement about has no evidence to suggest that it is authentic....its based on your reasoning.. how about it this way...

if you have some power to make a choice, between A or B, how does that reduce the power of God?? God has power of all things

All powerful means, God has the power to do anything and therefore out of Gods power he has given us the right to choose between good and bad...it does not diminish Gods power!!!!

You say this because you don't know what the word means. Do you know what ALL means? That mean NOTHING happens unless god makes it happen. If we have SOME power, then the eliminates ALL.

[C.G.Jung]

And yes Allah knows everything and can see, hear everything..and is above his creation...we are in a limited dimension...this is limited to this life only..once we die we enter a different dimension...that is why it is very hard to explain to mankind about the power of Allah..because our minds are limited, they were only created to serve the purpose of this life ...which is to worship Allah and live in accordance to the rules of Allah swt...

It is interesting that you say evidence when you say the above. My evidence is the word itself.

[dunya_or_akhira]

You say this because you don't know what the word means. Do you know what ALL means? That mean NOTHING happens unless god makes it happen. If we have SOME power, then the eliminates ALL.

we have the choice given to us by Allah swt....why make a mountain out of a molehill ?

be honest enough and say that you dont understand the concept of Islam and Allah swt.. thats all there is to it.. be a man ... dont try to act clever, we can see through people like you as we have to deal with many on a regular basis....

for the last time i will explain to you.....

the power and attributes of Allah are not like ours...we are part of Allahs creation...Allahs attributes ie power etc are above ours...a different dimension / scope and not restricted to this life like us humans

so for you to compare the power we have been given,,which is limited as its only bound for this life....to compare with Allahs is not correct...

the power we have is limited and given to us by Allah to exercise only in this life...As Allah swt does not die nor was created his attributes can not be compared with ours...

[C.G.Jung]

we have the choice given to us by Allah swt....why make a mountain out of a molehill ?

be honest enough and say that you dont understand the concept of Islam and Allah swt.. thats all there is to it.. be a man ... dont try to act clever, we can see through people like you as we have to deal with many on a regular basis....

Sure. Go ahead make an ad homniem. Have you looked at the Quranic verse I gave? If I don't understand the concept, then there is something wrong with it, or you don't know it. According to those Quranic verses, it speaks of omnipotence perfectly. We have no choice, Allah controls ALL.

[C.G.Jung]

for the last time i will explain to you.....

the power and attributes of Allah are not like ours...we are part of Allahs creation...Allahs attributes ie power etc are above ours...a different dimension / scope and not restricted to this life like us humans

so for you to compare the power we have been given,,which is limited as its only bound for this life....to compare with Allahs is not correct...

the power we have is limited and given to us by Allah to exercise only in this life...As Allah swt does not die nor was created his attributes can not be compared with ours...

You can go ahead and say that, but even limited power eliminates the ALL.

[dunya_or_akhira]

Sure. Go ahead make an ad homniem. Have you looked at the Quranic verse I gave? If I don't understand the concept, then there is something wrong with it, or you don't know it. According to those Quranic verses, it speaks of omnipotence perfectly. We have no choice, Allah controls ALL.

do you understand fusah quranic arabic?? the quran is in arabic, what you have given is just a translation of the nearest understanding from the translator...many of these misconceptions that non muslims have of the quran is due to their lack of understanding of the actual verse..

my advice is ..if you want to quote from the quran about something as a non muslim, first research about the verse from its original source rather then cut and paste from the net...

also how are u feeling?? i thought i mis-read but i read again and you i quote 'If I don't understand the concept, then there is something wrong with it, or you don't know it'

so mr know it all...if you dnt understand something then by default there is something wrong with it?? lol ... thats funny... again this proves my point...i know the kind of thinking you have by reading all of your posts since you joined this forum, iv come across many like you, and i know from experience that i will waste my time trying to explain to those who are not here to learn but rather to proprogate their own views....

good night god bless..

[dunya_or_akhira]

You can go ahead and say that, but even limited power eliminates the ALL.

prove it

i think where we disagree is on wordings....you interpret choice as power....i dont...choice can also be restrictive and restrictive by any definition does not side with power....

so as a muslim we have been given the choice of bad or good... by the ALL POWERFUL who is Allah swt..

you are linking choice with power...we dont believe we have any power, we have limited choice between good or bad..very simple...u do good you get reward, you do bad you get sin....there is no power about it...its a limited restricted choice but one with very different consquences

[C.G.Jung]

do you understand fusah quranic arabic?? the quran is in arabic, what you have given is just a translation of the nearest understanding from the translator...many of these misconceptions that non muslims have of the quran is due to their lack of understanding of the actual verse..

my advice is ..if you want to quote from the quran about something as a non muslim, first research about the verse from its original source rather then cut and paste from the net...

Why don't you show how I am wrong.

also how are u feeling??

What?

i thought i mis-read but i read again and you i quote 'If I don't understand the concept, then there is something wrong with it, or you don't know it'

so mr know it all...if you dnt understand something then by default there is something wrong with it?? lol ... thats funny... again this proves my point...i know the kind of thinking you have by reading all of your posts since you joined this forum, iv come across many like you, and i know from experience that i will waste my time trying to explain to those who are not here to learn but rather to fuse their own views....

good night god bless..

Don't project.

[C.G.Jung]

prove it

I just did. Don't you know what the word ALL means. Here is a simple concept. (If you desire the facilitate communication)

Here is a pie.
Now, if you eat ALL the pie, will I get any?

[ummbilal]

This is considered 'pulling the wool over one's eyes'. Claiming this is just like saying the dead are in a perpetual orgasm.

edit this please, it is discusting, disrespectful in a mixed forum and rude to the poster u answered.

[ummbilal]

It is interesting that you say evidence when you say the above. My evidence is the word itself.

I strongly suggest u listen to the lecture
Punishment of the Grave by sheikh Abdullah Faisal

http://islambase.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=33&id=76&Itemid=181

and educate yourself inshaallah, My son who is 11 knows the punishment is truth and has known since an early age, there is nothing wrong with educating our children about such matters as we know there is protection also from reciting surah al Mulk.

[dunya_or_akhira]

I just did. Don't you know what the word ALL means. Here is a simple concept. (If you desire the facilitate communication)

Here is a pie.
Now, if you eat ALL the pie, will I get any?

what a poor poor example....tut tut

heres one to swallow(excuse the pun)

i own many many pieces of land....ALL of them are exclusively mine... but within the lands i have one specific land that i have put people on it to live.... i have given them a choice of living in the good side or the bad..thats a restricted choice that i have given them in MY land...

i have ALL the power to evict them from the land...that is MY choice not theirs..they are only confined to my piece of land and have to stay within it...

it is MY right to decide who stays there and who leaves....

again i repeat ALL of the land is mine....ALL that goes on within MY lands i am aware of..i know the future, i know of the past I am aware of ALL concepts of time..

i hope you enjoyed your cake

[ummbilal]

r we talking inriddles now or am i too tired to read...?

[dunya_or_akhira]

no its just mr Jung has some issues over Islam and instead of trying to understand the muslims point of view on a islamic forum Mr Jung is trying to use his own understanding and then deriving statements purely from his own understanding and concept Mr Jung uses impressive use of the english grammer and terminology to try and show how educated and smart he is, but the trouble with Mr Jungs approach is that, he is not the only one...as a muslim living as a minority i am used to dealing with non muslims and can tell in most cases the genuine non muslims who come wanting to learn about Islam from the ones who come for other agendas...its quite a trend...just look through all their history of posts.. you will see a pattern emerge and you can then tell in most cases what that person is doing here...then it saves us muslims wasting time debating with people rather then educating them about Islam.. after all this is a Islamic forum

[Maureen]

Abdul-Carim: I basically agree with what you are saying. In short we do not know what has happened to our loved ones who have died. Even if we did know what God had in store for them, we could not do anything about it. As you say, it is a blessing we do not know.

[C.G.Jung]

what a poor poor example....tut tut

heres one to swallow(excuse the pun)

i own many many pieces of land....ALL of them are exclusively mine... but within the lands i have one specific land that i have put people on it to live.... i have given them a choice of living in the good side or the bad..thats a restricted choice that i have given them in MY land...
i have ALL the power to evict them from the land...that is MY choice not theirs..they are only confined to my piece of land and have to stay within it...

it is MY right to decide who stays there and who leaves....

again i repeat ALL of the land is mine....ALL that goes on within MY lands i am aware of..i know the future, i know of the past I am aware of ALL concepts of time..

i hope you enjoyed your cake

See, now there is the flaw in your argument. Sure you can give them a choice, but what does that have to do with owning the land. You go from land, then to choice.

You have made this far more complicated than it needs to be and the result is something completely incomphrehensible. See what you are saying is that we are using god's power. So?

So here are your points, yet using power.

All power belongs to god.
God lets us use a limited portion of his power.
They come and use your land how they choose.. but wait, if they came, they already had power... but wait again if we insert land.. then how does that work. They came from their land. Further, once they get to your land, they cannot leave. How did they get their in the first place.

Questions? Are those people who use this power yours? or did they come and use your power.to your land on their own. If they came to your land, they already.

Your example fail because it is not straight forward enough. You complicate things to rationalize the problem but it is merely Occam's Razor. If you cannot keep it simple, like the pie, then their is something wrong with it. Please reconstruct your argument to make it easier to follow.

I hope you actually handle this with civilty and not project.

[C.G.Jung]

no its just mr Jung has some issues over Islam

Nah, your projecting.

and instead of trying to understand the muslims point of view on a islamic forum

I'm not, your projecting again. My questions and differing points of view is a way to understand.

Mr Jung is trying to use his own understanding and then deriving statements purely from his own understanding and concept

Nope, these arguments are pretty objective. You can find them all over the place.

Mr Jung uses impressive use of the english grammer

I am?

and terminology to try and show how educated and smart he is,

No, I want to be clear as possible. You do not do this to facilitate communication? Unbelievable!

but the trouble with Mr Jungs approach is that, he is not the only one...

Apparently so. I guess you have no desire to communicate then.

[C.G.Jung]

edit this please, it is discusting, disrespectful in a mixed forum and rude to the poster u answered.

How is it? Saying disrespectful and disgusting and rude mean nothing. Why?

Isn't it disgusting, rude and disrespectful saying that people go to hell because they are incapable of believing?

The things in the article leave an infinite amount of possibilities. Many people leave the word through the kundilini experience. This expreience is an orgasm. People believe this, and I can bring anecdotes and hearsay for this.

[kamalysalma]

How is it? Saying disrespectful and disgusting and rude mean nothing. Why?

Isn't it disgusting, rude and disrespectful saying that people go to hell because they are incapable of believing?

The things in the article leave an infinite amount of possibilities. Many people leave the word through the kundilini experience. This expreience is an orgasm. People believe this, and I can bring anecdotes and hearsay for this.


I hope you're attitude helps you after you've left the life of this world :rolleyes:

[C.G.Jung]

I hope you're attitude helps you after you've left the life of this world :rolleyes:

What attitude?

[Abdul-Curim]

What attitude?

the same attitude which the children of Israel showed to the messenger of Allah (swt) Moses (pbuh) , by asking perverted questions .

[dunya_or_akhira]

Nah, your projecting.



I'm not, your projecting again. My questions and differing points of view is a way to understand.



Nope, these arguments are pretty objective. You can find them all over the place.



I am?



No, I want to be clear as possible. You do not do this to facilitate communication? Unbelievable!



Apparently so. I guess you have no desire to communicate then.

Listen Mr Kuffar..u just wont understand until you understand.. lets hope its before your death....

I dont wish to waste my time debating on issues when your whole mindset is off track from an Islamic prospective...

[C.G.Jung]

Listen Mr Kuffar..u just wont understand until you understand.. lets hope its before your death....

I dont wish to waste my time debating on issues when your whole mindset is off track from an Islamic prospective...

I'd prefer not be credulous. Just like you can go ahead and project all you want.

[dunya_or_akhira]

you love the word project...why dont you project yourself out of this forum ?

[C.G.Jung]

you love the word project...why dont you project yourself out of this forum ?

That doesn't make any sense.

[dunya_or_akhira]

its not meant to make sense because your still here....until you leave it wont make sense