Wali

[Pro_Candy]

Salaams :)


Does a divorced woman need a wali to get married again? Does it matter if she has no mahram? I've heard different things, so proofs and explanations would be appreciated.

[A_Muminah]

As-salaamu 'alaykum Wa Rahmatullaah,

“There should be no nikaah (marriage contract) except with a wali (guardian).”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi

i have heard that this applies to all cases.

EDIT:

Question:
I married a woman from an Islamic country, I divorced her twice. We had an ‘urfi marriage, customary marriage that is not lawfully registered. Her wali was a sheikh her father entrusted. Her father died some time ago, and all her brothers are younger than her. I do not know her wali. I want her to be my wife again, after two years apart as result of divorce. Does she have to have a wali for our marriage to take place, knowing that her father has passed away and all her brothers are younger than her? Is it correct Islamically if I marry her without wali attending, especially that she was my wife before?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

If a man divorces his wife and the ‘iddah ends, then she is not permissible for him unless there is a new marriage contract, and the wali is one of the conditions of the marriage contract being valid, so marriage is not valid without a wali.

Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Mughni (7/5): Marriage is not valid without a wali, and a woman cannot do the marriage contract for herself or for anyone else, or appoint anyone other than her wali to do her marriage. If she does that, the marriage is not valid. End quote.

The evidence for that is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no marriage except with a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085) and al-Tirmidhi (1101); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

As you divorced this woman two years ago, her ‘iddah is over, and after the ‘iddah ends, the ex-husband is a stranger to her like all other men. So she is not permissible to you except with a new marriage contract, and it essential that her wali do this marriage contract, or her wali appoint someone to do the marriage contract with her for you.

If there is no father, then the grandfather is the wali. If there is no grandfather then her brothers are her walis, and it is does not matter if they are younger than her, but it is essential that the wali be an adult. If one of her brothers is an adult then he is her wali, even if he is younger than her.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (18/147):

No one can act as a wali for a woman’s marriage contract except one who is an adult of sound mind. If there is no such person then the qaadi (judge) is the wali, because the ruler is the wali of the one who has no wali, and the qaadi is his deputy in such matters. Adulthood is achieved when a person emits maniy with desire, whether as the result of a wet dream or otherwise, or when hair grows around the private part, or when one reaches the age of fifteen. The one who is of sound mind is the one who handles matters well, by seeking a compatible suitor who is appropriate for the female under his care. End quote.

If all her brothers are minors, and none of them is an adult, then the role of wali passes to those who come next, namely the paternal uncles. If there are no paternal uncles then it passes to the sons of the paternal uncles (cousins).

If none of these walis are present, then the shar’i judge should act as wali for her marriage, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Based on that, if you want to marry this woman and she does not have any wali, then you must refer to the shar’i qaadi in the court so that he may act as the wali for her marriage.

Note: You say that your first marriage was done without any official registration. Even though it is valid if it meets all the conditions – because it is not a condition of a marriage contract being valid that it be registered officially – we should point out that it is important to register marriages, and we advise people not to take this matter lightly, so as to protect people’s rights and so that foolish men and women will not toy with the matter of marriage contracts.

See the answer to question no. 22728.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

Source (http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=99696&ln=eng&txt=divorce%20woman%20wali)

Was-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh

[Pro_Candy]

Thanks Sis. Just to clarify, I don't want to get re-married to the same guy. I've heard that if you're divorced, and are ready to get married again (to a different guy) that you do not need a wali. Then again, I've heard that you should should have a father, son, brother, or someone like that, as a wali.

Which brings up another question. If your son can be your wali, how old does he have to be? I might be pushing it there, as my son is very young. But I have no Muslim family and no Muslim around who I trust or know well enough to take such a position in my life, and honestly do not know what 'shar’i qaadi' means.

[`asiya]

Thanks Sis. Just to clarify, I don't want to get re-married to the same guy. I've heard that if you're divorced, and are ready to get married again (to a different guy) that you do not need a wali. Then again, I've heard that you should should have a father, son, brother, or someone like that, as a wali.

Which brings up another question. If your son can be your wali, how old does he have to be? I might be pushing it there, as my son is very young. But I have no Muslim family and no Muslim around who I trust or know well enough to take such a position in my life.

it doesnt matter if its the same man or a different one that your marrying your marriage is invalid without a wali as mentioned in the hadith above. ( and also bear in mind that if ur wali is not your mahram then u cannot be alone with him etc. as goes for any other strange man )

heres a thread about the conditions of the wali :)

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119327

[brjimc]

Question: Respected scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum! Is it allowed for a Muslim woman to conclude her own marriage contract without the presence of her wali (guardian)?

Answer:

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

As regards the issue you raised, the European Council for Fatwa and Research issued the following Fatwa:

"Marriage is one of the most important contracts for it signals the creation of a new family within society; the birth of new individuals into the world and the duties and responsibilities which fall unto each of the two partners.

As a result of marriage being a contract between the two spouses as partners to the contract, the full consent of whom is deemed vital for the ratification to proceed, the Lawgiver (Allah Almighty) did not allow for the guardianship of the father of the bride or anyone else to become one by which the guardian forces or compels the woman to marry to a man whom she does not want. Indeed, Islam granted the woman full rights to accept whomever proposes to her in marriage or to reject him.

Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) stated that a small girl came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and told him that her father had forced her to marry against her will. The Prophet gave her the right to choose either to stay married or to annul the marriage contract. (Reported by Imam Ahmad)

The Prophetic texts all came to affirm this right for women. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated that "The virgin shall not be married until her consent is sought neither a previously married woman until she overtly states her acceptance," he (peace and blessings be upon him) added: "and the virgin’s consent shall be sought by her father.”

By this, Islam decreed that marriage be built upon a basis of love, compassion and mercy. Allah Almighty stated: "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercybetween your hearts." ( Ar-Rum: 21)

It is usually impossible to attain these beautiful aims and objectives within a marriage, which was established with force and compulsion. However, since the woman, despite her Islamically granted independence, was always subject to the desires of the ill-hearted and evil opportunists; Islam decreed certain legislations which would maintain her rights and deter those whom carry ill-aims and desires.

Therefore, Islam gave great importance to the approval of the woman's guardian in a manner, which reflects the significance of the marriage contract. This also adds another dimension to the beautiful state of tranquillity and love in which the entire family will find themselves, as the woman will remain on good terms with her parents or guardians, in contrast to what would happen if she went against their wish. In this case the opposite of what Islam aimed to achieve would undoubtedly prevail.

Despite the general consensus among scholars that the approval of the woman's guardian is preferable and much more favorable, they differed regarding whether it is actually a condition for the validity of the marriage contract:

1- The majority of scholars agreed that the approval of the guardian is a condition, without which the contract would be invalid, based upon the statement of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who stated that: "The marriage of any woman married without the permission of her guardian is false." He (peace and blessings be upon him) also stated: “No marriage is to take place without the guardian.”

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

The European Council for Fatwa and Research advises women not to disregard their guardians, who wish only for their best interest and that they marry good men rather than deceitful and ill-heart proposers.

The Council also advises fathers to facilitate the marriage of their daughters and to seek their opinions as regards the suitors, without transgressing in using the rights that Islam granted to them. The Council also reminds them of the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): "If someone comes to propose in marriage and he is of acceptable religion and behavior, then accept his proposal, otherwise great turbulence and corruption will spread on earth."

Fathers must also realize that preventing their daughters from getting married is a great injustice, which is outlawed and prohibited by Islam. The Council also advises the Islamic Centers to take the aforementioned rules into consideration, as it is safest and best.

However, if the woman does not have a legal guardian, then an Islamic Center must act as her guardian in countries lacking an Islamic Legal system. The Council finally affirms that it believes that if the mature and sound-minded woman were to marry herself (without the interference of her guardian), then her marriage would be valid.”


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544420

[`asiya]

However, if the woman does not have a legal guardian, then an Islamic Center must act as her guardian in countries lacking an Islamic Legal system. The Council finally affirms that it believes that if the mature and sound-minded woman were to marry herself (without the interference of her guardian), then her marriage would be valid.”

and what is their evidence for such a statement ?

[brjimc]

However, if the woman does not have a legal guardian, then an Islamic Center must act as her guardian in countries lacking an Islamic Legal system. The Council finally affirms that it believes that if the mature and sound-minded woman were to marry herself (without the interference of her guardian), then her marriage would be valid.”

and what is their evidence for such a statement ?

How about common sense...

many reverts do not have qualified wali's. or people hwo have no male relatives... so you must go to the islamic center if you need a wali.

this is for people living in non-Muslim lands.

[Pro_Candy]

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

So according to this, one wouldn't need a wali if she were previously married?

many reverts do not have qualified wali's. or people hwo have no male relatives... so you must go to the islamic center if you need a wali.

And to trust a complete stranger with what you need in life isn't something many revert women can't accept. This man (leader of the community) knows nothing about the woman, her needs, likes, dislikes, etc, the way a relative would. Also (as in my situation), the 'leader of the community' seems as if he's way too busy to deal with 'womens issues'.

[`asiya]

How about common sense...

many reverts do not have qualified wali's. or people hwo have no male relatives... so you must go to the islamic center if you need a wali.

this is for people living in non-Muslim lands.

going to the islamic centre to get a walli to marry u i agree with.

but im asking about what is their evidence that a woman who marries herself to a man her marriage is valid ? because according to the conditions of nikkah and the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam the marriage is invalid without two witnesses and a walli.

[brjimc]

Salaams :)


Does a divorced woman need a wali to get married again? Does it matter if she has no mahram? I've heard different things, so proofs and explanations would be appreciated.


Dont you worry your pretty little hijab over it sis... Im sure your woman enough to handle yourself... :badguy: Say, how is that person you socked in the eye? :rotfl: Seems like everyone around you are turning up with black eyes :eek:

[brjimc]

going to the islamic centre to get a walli to marry u i agree with.

but im asking about what is their evidence that a woman who marries herself to a man her marriage is valid ? because according to the conditions of nikkah and the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam the marriage is invalid without two witnesses and a walli.

You didnt read the entire fatwah?

the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent."

[brjimc]

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

So according to this, one wouldn't need a wali if she were previously married?

many reverts do not have qualified wali's. or people hwo have no male relatives... so you must go to the islamic center if you need a wali.

And to trust a complete stranger with what you need in life isn't something many revert women can't accept. This man (leader of the community) knows nothing about the woman, her needs, likes, dislikes, etc, the way a relative would. Also (as in my situation), the 'leader of the community' seems as if he's way too busy to deal with 'womens issues'.

exactly.

[`asiya]

You didnt read the entire fatwah?

the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent."

that hadith has been mistranslated into english, it simply refers to the fact that the walli must get the consent of a previously married woman to marry her to a man, and a virgins silence is her consent. a marriage contract is invalid without a walli because the prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said so the marriage is also invalid without two male, sane muslim witnesses, so even if she has no walli cos she claims she cant find one she is going to need a mahram to be with her ( even her kaffir mahram) because she cannot be alone with a man and she is going to need two male muslim witnesses to the marriage so if u can find two male muslim witnesses then certainly a muslim walli can be found otherwise the marriage is invalid.

[`asiya]

He married a woman without a guardian

Question:
I am in a foreign land and married a Christian girl who is also a foreigner in that country. Both of us do not have any relatives or friends or contacts in that country. I proposed to her and she accepted so I read the marriage statements and she accepted and than I read the marriage statement for my acceptance. I forgot the Mehr in statement but later paid some amount to her. There was no guardian for her as she is adult and independent and we could not arrange any witness. Question is:

1. Whether this is a valid religious marriage and is it not sin in Islam as we do not care for the social or legal aspect because we are foreigners. In other word we married keeping in view our God and do not want to be punished by God on day of judgment. (We lived like man & wife for some days).
2. As I was not sure about religious aspect of this marriage, we mutually decided that I should divorce her, and I did. Is it OK?
3. Do I need to marry her again if our marriage was not OK, in front of witnesses and any Guardian / Wali to relieve myself of any sin.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

It is not permissible for a man to marry a woman without the permission of her guardian, whether she is a virgin or previously-married. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including al-Shaafa’i, Maalik and Ahmad. This is based on evidence which includes the following:

The verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands”

[al-Baqarah 2:232]

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone)”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

“and marry those among you who are single”

[al-Noor 24:32]

The point here is that these verses clearly stipulate that there be a guardian in marriage, because Allaah is addressing the guardian with regard to the marriage of the woman under his care. If the matter were up to her and not him, there would be no need to address him.

It is indicative of Imam al-Bukhaari’s deep understanding of issues of sharee’ah that he quoted these verses in a chapter which he entitled “Baab man qaala la nikaaha illa bi wali (Chapter on those who say that there is no marriage without a guardian).”

It was narrated that Abu Moosa said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Abu Dawood, 2085; Ibn Maajah, 1881. Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1/318)

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1102; Abu Dawood, 2083; Ibn Maajah, 1879. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1840)

Secondly: If her guardian prevents her from marrying the person she wants for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the role of guardian passes to the next closest relative, so it passes from the father to the grandfather, for example.

Thirdly: if all of her guardians prevent her from getting married for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the ruler is her guardian, because of the hadeeth quoted above (“…If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian”)

Fourthly: if there is no guardian and no ruler, then her marriage is to be arranged by a man who has authority in the place where she is, such as the head of a village, or the governor of a province, and so on. If there is no such person, then she should appoint a trustworthy Muslim man to arrange her marriage.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

If there is no relative who can act as her guardian, then the position of guardian passes to the one who is most fit among those who have any kind of authority in matters other than marriage, such as the head of a village, the leader of a caravan, and so on.
Al-Ikhtiyaaraat, p. 350.

Ibn Qudaamah said: If a woman does not have a guardian and there is no ruler, then there was narrated from Ahmad that which indicates that her marriage should be arranged by a man of sound character, with her permission.

Al-Mughni, 9/362.

Shaykh ‘Umar al-Ashqar said:

If there is no ruler of the Muslims, or if the woman is in a place where the Muslims have no ruler, and she has no guardian at all, like the Muslims in America and elsewhere, if there are Islamic institutions in that country that take care of the Muslims’ affairs, then they should arrange her marriage. The same applies if the Muslims have a leader who is in charge or someone who is responsible for their affairs.

Al-Waadih fi Sharh Qanoon al-Ahwaal al-Shakhsiyyah al-Urduni, p. 70

The marriage contract must be witnessed by two adult male Muslims of sound mind. See question no. 2127.

Hence you have to repeat your marriage contract, and it is essential that the woman’s guardian be present, as stated above, as well as two witnesses.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&QR=7989

[`asiya]

If a man says to his fiancée, “Give yourself to me in marriage,” this is not regarded as a marriage

Question:
I am a young man and I proposed marriage to a girl. The engagement period lasted approximately one year, then something like what happens between a husband and a wife happened between us. There was no actual zina but I know that this is one of the degrees of zina. I said to her: “Will you give yourself to me in marriage according to the Sunnah of Allaah and His Messenger?” And she said “Yes.” Allaah and all of the Muslims are witnesses that she is my wife and she agrees with me, but there were no witnesses, until the marriage is done officially, so that whatever happens between us will not be haraam. Is this marriage permissible or not?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

The fiancé is a stranger (non-mahram) to his fiancée and it is not permissible for him to touch her, shake hands with her or be alone with her. The evidence that these things are haraam is well known and is not hidden. See question no. 84089.

What happened between you is haraam and you must repent to Allaah, may He be exalted, for that, by giving it up, regretting it and resolving not to do it again in the future. You must also keep away from the things that lead to haraam such as being in touch or corresponding, until the marriage contract is done.

Many people are careless about such matters during the engagement period; this is an evil matter which leads to things that are even worse.

Think about how the shaytaan toys with man until he commits zina with the one he wants to marry. Verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return.

Think about a marriage that starts with something haraam, and is based on haraam. How will it be and how will it end?

Secondly:

The fact that you said to your fiancée “Will you marry me according to the Sunnah of Allaah and His Messenger” and she said yes is not regarded as a marriage and it is worthless according to sharee’ah. It does not make permissible what happened before it and what will come after it. Rather this is one of the tricks of the shaytaan whereby he deceives some of those who turn away from learning what their religion requires of them. If this were a real marriage, why would every adulterer and adulteress fail to do it?

A marriage contract is not valid unless it is done in the presence of the woman’s wali (guardian) and with his consent, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Maajah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her wali, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.”

Narrated by Ahmad (24417) Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 2709.

Allaah describes marriage as meethaaq ghaleez (firm and strong covenant – al-Nisa’ 4:21).

It is not a game that a man plays with his friends, bringing whomever he wants to witness his marriage to a woman who is careless about her honour and who has sold herself, then when he has had his way with her he leaves her with no authority over him and no way to demand maintenance from him, then if she produces a child he is the first one to disavow himself of him. And he does not know, perhaps she married another husband in the same cheap manner?

This shows you how abhorrent are these tricks that are used in order to commit zina and which are called marriage. Unfortunately this has become widespread among some Muslims. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.

Finally, we should like you to ask yourself this question: If this girl was your sister or your daughter, would you agree to her fiancé doing that with her?

If you would not like it for your sister or your daughter, then other people do not like it for their sisters and daughters either.

Fear Allaah, give up this haraam action, and protect the honour of the one whom you want to be your wife in the future.

You must hasten to get married, so that you will be safe from committing something haraam.

May Allaah help us all to do that which He loves and which pleases Him.

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=87496&ln=eng&txt=wali

[brjimc]

aisya, you can error on the side of caution in the case of a woman who is able to marry without a wali if you like. But the Prophet allowed it in the case of women who were previously married. Cant deny that.

So the marraige is valid in that case. Like it or not.

You cant ignore the Prophet to suite your whimbs... even if the scholars say this or that.

You can shop for a fatwah all you want, eventually you will find validation somewhere.

[`asiya]

aisya, you can error on the side of caution in the case of a woman who is able to marry without a wali if you like. But the Prophet allowed it in the case of women who were previously married. Cant deny that.

So the marraige is valid in that case. Like it or not.

You cant ignore the Prophet to suite your whimbs... even if the scholars say this or that.

You can shop for a fatwah all you want, eventually you will find validation somewhere.

u have been fatwa shopping to find someone to give u a lame reason to disobey all the evidence from Allah and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, and they have not correctly translated the hadith into english. wether u like it or not, islam is based on the words of Allah ta ala and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam and not what men from their own personal opinions, did u read all the daleel above ?

the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a wali.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (2085), al-Tirmidhi (1101) and Ibn Maajah (1881) from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

do u deny the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam where he states 3 times that a marriage is invalid without a walli. And what about the conditions of a marriage contract ? u know that a contract is invalid without a muslim walli and two male sane muslim witnesses, so even if u are using the excuse that the woman cannot find a muslim to be her walli then she will still need two male sane muslim witnesses to the marriage or the marriage will be invalid. so either way there needs to be other muslims involved. so having no muslims around is not an excuse.

and will u argue with the ayat of the Quran too

“Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Awliyaa’ or masters)”

[al-Nisa’ 4:25]

u cant argue with Allah ta ala. the matter is clear.


and anyway the walli is there to protect a woman, what about if something goes wrong and that man is not giving her her rights and is beating her opressing her how will she get free from that marriage ? the right of divorce lies only with the husband, a woman needs to get her walli to sort it out for her, and take her case before the judge in order to get a divorce so it would be absolute idoicy for a woman to marry without a walli, that man could then do anything he liked to her and she will not be able to get free from the marriage.

many men try this oh u dont need a walli so they can commit zinnah with a woman, have control over her and then abuse women, it is only an evil man who would not want his future wife to have a walli to see that all of her islamic rights are protected once she is married. who will she turn to if she has no walli when it all ends in tears.

[Pro_Candy]

So, there are some differences in opinion here, obviously.

[brjimc]

u have been fatwa shopping to find someone to give u a lame reason to disobey all the evidence from Allah and his messenger #

Sister, Im the one who has given you the Prophets words on this topic. Dont get all high and mighty with your personal attacks.

I take the Prophets words as the authority on this topic. You dont have a beef with me... you have a beef with Him!!!

hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent."

taqallah sister.

There is no marriage without a wali for the virgin young woman in light of all of the hadith and Quran. All conseidered, a divorced woman can marry without a wali.


Also the Prophet said.. not to make the halal haram nor the haram halal. I am making sure that the halal remains halal with the Prophets evidence.

[`asiya]

#

Sister, Im the one who has given you the Prophets words on this topic. Dont get all high and mighty with your personal attacks.

I take the Prophets words as the authority on this topic. You dont have a beef with me... you have a beef with Him!!!

hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent."

taqallah sister.


go and get the arabic for the hadith and then translate it into english properly, and u cannot take one hadith and throw away all of the other hadiths and ayat in regard to the same matter. and u are the one who should fear Allah i have bought u the explanations of the scolars the sahih ahadith and the ayat of the Quran about this matter and still u deny it and instead you favour one man`s personal opinion on the matter and take his word over what Allah ta ala and his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam have said .

it was narrated that Abu Moosa said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Abu Dawood, 2085; Ibn Maajah, 1881. Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1/318)


“Wed them with the permission of their own folk (guardians, Awliyaa’ or masters)”

[surah al-Nisa’ 4:25]

“Any woman who gets married without the permission of her wali, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.”

Narrated by Ahmad (24417) Abu Dawood (2083) and al-Tirmidhi (1102); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 2709.

the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Any woman who gets married without her wali, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. If the marriage has been consummated, the mahr is hers because she has allowed the man to be intimate with her. If there is a dispute, then the ruler is the walli, of the one who has no wali." Narrated by Ahmad, 24417; Abu Dawood, 2083; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami', no. 2709.

[brjimc]

go and get the arabic for the hadith and then translate it into english properly, and u cannot take one hadith and throw away all of the other hadiths and ayat in regard to the same matter. and u are the one who should fear Allah i have bought u the explanations of the scolars the sahih ahadith and the ayat of the Quran about this matter and still u deny it.
.


I dont deny anything.

You deny the Prophet said what he did in Sahih Muslim

You are casting aspursions on the Prophet to justify your opinion! make tawbah for that sister.

Taqallah.

[the_middle_road]

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

It is not permissible for a man to marry a woman without the permission of her guardian, whether she is a virgin or previously-married. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including al-Shaafa’i, Maalik and Ahmad.

The fact is, sister, that the view you are promoting is the view of the majority of the 'ulama'. But this does not mean that it is the only view and the view of the Hanafiyyah is that a woman can contract a marriage by herself, especially if she has already been previously married. I do not have the adillah for their view at hand, but this is what I have learnt. You may feel that a woman can't get married without a wali, and that is fine it is the view of many scholars and is supported by many ahadith, but you should at least acknowledge that there is some difference of opinion concerning this matter. I find it a bit sad that in the fatwa you quoted they acknowledge that the Hanafiyyah have a different view to the one that they gave, but then they do not mention what that view is.

Pro_Candy: from what I know, the view of the majority (the Malikiyyah, Shafi'iyyah and Hanabilah) is that a woman can't get married without the consent of her wali but the Hanafiyyah disagree and say that she can do so. Sorry but I don't have the proofs for their view right now.

Wallahu a'lam.

[Pro_Candy]

Thanks BrJim, Asiya, and Middle Road for all the input!

[brjimc]

The fact is, sister, that the view you are promoting is the view of the majority of the 'ulama'. But this does not mean that it is the only view and the view of the Hanafiyyah is that a woman can contract a marriage by herself, especially if she has already been previously married. I do not have the adillah for their view at hand, but this is what I have learnt. You may feel that a woman can't get married without a wali, and that is fine it is the view of many scholars and is supported by many ahadith, but you should at least acknowledge that there is some difference of opinion concerning this matter. I find it a bit sad that in the fatwa you quoted they acknowledge that the Hanafiyyah have a different view to the one that they gave, but then they do not mention what that view is.

Pro_Candy: from what I know, the view of the majority (the Malikiyyah, Shafi'iyyah and Hanabilah) is that a woman can't get married without the consent of her wali but the Hanafiyyah disagree and say that she can do so. Sorry but I don't have the proofs for their view right now.

Wallahu a'lam.

So, how can the scholars prohibit something the Prophet allowed?

If it is true that our respected scholars made something that is halal, into a haram, then they are in error.

You cant go against a Sahih hadith. They all have to be considered equally in light of each other. Scholars are not immune to error as much as we respect them and their knowledge. We should take consultation with the scholars and consider their knowledge greater than ours in that they have studied a great deal, but not follow them blindly.

[Pro_Candy]

Can a wali marry a woman? What if a woman had no Muslim relatives, so she got a wali to marry her off, and they (after the communication needed for the circumstances, of course, to help her find a proper marriage partner, he'd have to get to know her) fell for eachother and wanted to get married?

I believe I've formed an opinion on the subject of a wali for myself based on information here, thanks again for the input.

[brjimc]

Can a wali marry a woman? What if a woman had no Muslim relatives, so she got a wali to marry her off, and they (after the communication needed for the circumstances, of course, to help her find a proper marriage partner, he'd have to get to know her) fell for eachother and wanted to get married?

I believe I've formed an opinion on the subject of a wali for myself based on information here, thanks again for the input.

:1popcorn:

[Pro_Candy]

:1popcorn:

Hey u, I'd like your input on this one too! :rolleyes:

[brjimc]

Hey u, I'd like your input on this one too! :rolleyes:

LOL.. you trying to get me in trouble? :torture:

[Pro_Candy]

LOL.. you trying to get me in trouble? :torture:

Who me? Of course not, it was just a scenario that popped into my head while reading the thread. Thought, well I'm sure it's happened before, so what's the opinion there?

So since you've responded already, Jim, what's your take on this?








Or, if you don't wanna answer, that's ok.... really don't want you in more trouble than you've gotten yourself into here, lol...

[brjimc]

Who me? Of course not, it was just a scenario that popped into my head while reading the thread. Thought, well I'm sure it's happened before, so what's the opinion there?

So since you've responded already, Jim, what's your take on this?

.

Well, a Wali is supposed to be a mahraam also. So you couldnt marry them.

However, in the case of a woman (like a revert) who doesnt have Muslim relatives and goes to the Islamic center for a wali (who is unrelated to her) I think perhaps they can marry her.

:hidban:

[Pro_Candy]

Well, a Wali is supposed to be a mahraam also. So you couldnt marry them.

However, in the case of a woman (like a revert) who doesnt have Muslim relatives and goes to the Islamic center for a wali (who is unrelated to her) I think perhaps they can marry her.

:hidban:

So she'd need a wali for her wali. Seriously. Having a non-mahram wali could very well open up new problematic possibilities.

[brjimc]

So she'd need a wali for her wali. Seriously. Having a non-mahram wali could very well open up new problematic possibilities.

LOL..yeah... it'd be like not having a Wali. :eek:

Imagine your wali salivating over you! Not a good thing.

[the_middle_road]

So, how can the scholars prohibit something the Prophet allowed?

If it is true that our respected scholars made something that is halal, into a haram, then they are in error.

You cant go against a Sahih hadith. They all have to be considered equally in light of each other. Scholars are not immune to error as much as we respect them and their knowledge. We should take consultation with the scholars and consider their knowledge greater than ours in that they have studied a great deal, but not follow them blindly.

I don't understand what you are saying. Nobody is making anything that is halal, haram. It is just that in the opinion of the majority of the 'ulama', after looking at all the ahadith and making their Ijtihad, they feel that a woman can't get married without a wali. The Hanafiyyah have also done the same thing but have reached a different conclusion. The majority are not "going against a Sahih hadith", they just understand it differently from the Hanafiyyah. Similarly it can't be said that the Hanafiyyah, are going against ahadith such as: "Laa nikaaha illaa biwaliyyin wa shaahidain" (There is no marriage without a wali and two witnesses) they just interpret it differently from the majority of 'ulama'. When the fuqaha' differ on any given issue, we do not say that this one is right and that one is wrong, rather they are both correct. The most that can be said is that the one view is the stronger view and the other is a weak one. But even here, this is not for lay people to decide which is the better view, but it is up to the scholars.

Wallahu a'lam.

[aisha2007]

So, there are some differences in opinion here, obviously.

As a revert I had no mahram who was able to stand as my wali. So the Imam became my wali.
We met once before the marriage in the prescence of his wife.
It's simple.

[aisha2007]

Can a wali marry a woman? What if a woman had no Muslim relatives, so she got a wali to marry her off, and they (after the communication needed for the circumstances, of course, to help her find a proper marriage partner, he'd have to get to know her) fell for eachother and wanted to get married?

I believe I've formed an opinion on the subject of a wali for myself based on information here, thanks again for the input.

as for forming an opinion for yourself based on varying degrees of information on here...wouldn't you be wiser to speak with your Imam?

[brjimc]

I don't understand what you are saying. Nobody is making anything that is halal, haram. .

I understand the opinion of scholars. However, despite what the scholars (who mostly come from countries where a wali is almost always available) think, you cannot deny the words of the Prophet.

There are cases where a woman can find a suitable spouse without a wali. Teh Prophet said so. I posted the hadith.

[brjimc]

As a revert I had no mahram who was able to stand as my wali. So the Imam became my wali.
We met once before the marriage in the prescence of his wife.
It's simple.


This is acceptable if they want to act as your wali. However, I dont believe that someone not related to you can be your mahram.

My only point to this is what the Prophet himself said. He gave permission for some women to choose their spouses without a wali's involvement.

Question: Respected scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum! Is it allowed for a Muslim woman to conclude her own marriage contract without the presence of her wali (guardian)?

Answer:

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

As regards the issue you raised, the European Council for Fatwa and Research issued the following Fatwa:

"Marriage is one of the most important contracts for it signals the creation of a new family within society; the birth of new individuals into the world and the duties and responsibilities which fall unto each of the two partners.

As a result of marriage being a contract between the two spouses as partners to the contract, the full consent of whom is deemed vital for the ratification to proceed, the Lawgiver (Allah Almighty) did not allow for the guardianship of the father of the bride or anyone else to become one by which the guardian forces or compels the woman to marry to a man whom she does not want. Indeed, Islam granted the woman full rights to accept whomever proposes to her in marriage or to reject him.

Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) stated that a small girl came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and told him that her father had forced her to marry against her will. The Prophet gave her the right to choose either to stay married or to annul the marriage contract. (Reported by Imam Ahmad)

The Prophetic texts all came to affirm this right for women. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated that "The virgin shall not be married until her consent is sought neither a previously married woman until she overtly states her acceptance," he (peace and blessings be upon him) added: "and the virgin’s consent shall be sought by her father.”

By this, Islam decreed that marriage be built upon a basis of love, compassion and mercy. Allah Almighty stated: "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercybetween your hearts." ( Ar-Rum: 21)

It is usually impossible to attain these beautiful aims and objectives within a marriage, which was established with force and compulsion. However, since the woman, despite her Islamically granted independence, was always subject to the desires of the ill-hearted and evil opportunists; Islam decreed certain legislations which would maintain her rights and deter those whom carry ill-aims and desires.

Therefore, Islam gave great importance to the approval of the woman's guardian in a manner, which reflects the significance of the marriage contract. This also adds another dimension to the beautiful state of tranquillity and love in which the entire family will find themselves, as the woman will remain on good terms with her parents or guardians, in contrast to what would happen if she went against their wish. In this case the opposite of what Islam aimed to achieve would undoubtedly prevail.

Despite the general consensus among scholars that the approval of the woman's guardian is preferable and much more favorable, they differed regarding whether it is actually a condition for the validity of the marriage contract:

1- The majority of scholars agreed that the approval of the guardian is a condition, without which the contract would be invalid, based upon the statement of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who stated that: "The marriage of any woman married without the permission of her guardian is false." He (peace and blessings be upon him) also stated: “No marriage is to take place without the guardian.”

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

The European Council for Fatwa and Research advises women not to disregard their guardians, who wish only for their best interest and that they marry good men rather than deceitful and ill-heart proposers.

The Council also advises fathers to facilitate the marriage of their daughters and to seek their opinions as regards the suitors, without transgressing in using the rights that Islam granted to them. The Council also reminds them of the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): "If someone comes to propose in marriage and he is of acceptable religion and behavior, then accept his proposal, otherwise great turbulence and corruption will spread on earth."

Fathers must also realize that preventing their daughters from getting married is a great injustice, which is outlawed and prohibited by Islam. The Council also advises the Islamic Centers to take the aforementioned rules into consideration, as it is safest and best.

However, if the woman does not have a legal guardian, then an Islamic Center must act as her guardian in countries lacking an Islamic Legal system. The Council finally affirms that it believes that if the mature and sound-minded woman were to marry herself (without the interference of her guardian), then her marriage would be valid.”


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544420

[the_middle_road]

I understand the opinion of scholars. However, despite what the scholars (who mostly come from countries where a wali is almost always available) think, you cannot deny the words of the Prophet.

There are cases where a woman can find a suitable spouse without a wali. Teh Prophet said so. I posted the hadith.

And I'm not going to argue with that. All I'm saying is that those who say that having the consent of a wali is a pre-condition for marriage are not wrong for saying so.

Peace.

[Pro_Candy]

as for forming an opinion for yourself based on varying degrees of information on here...wouldn't you be wiser to speak with your Imam?

Of course. I've dealt with (or tried to deal with) my sheikh many times before, on plenty of subjects. I began doubting his word when he wanted me to stay with my husband, who jumps back and forth betweeh Shia and Sunni to suit his whims. When he didn't want me to divorce him legally because of his legal/emigration status. When, half the times I was supposed to meet with him, he would turn into a 'no call, no show'. And when a friends husband was discussing marriage for me (without my permission, by the way), they came up with a man who wanted me as a second wife.

I'm not going to let my sheikh marry me off to a man who marries me (as a second wife) out of pity. And the way my sheikh has handled (or not handled) things for me in the past, I have no trust in him whatsoever.

[aisha2007]

This is acceptable if they want to act as your wali. However, I dont believe that someone not related to you can be your mahram.

My only point to this is what the Prophet himself said. He gave permission for some women to choose their spouses without a wali's involvement.

you don't believe he can act as my wali?
and why is that?

there has to be someone in a position of trust who can act.
and if i was 16 years old...no male lineage....who then would be available?

I asked for a fatwa on the subject of my wali, as I do on things I am unsure of, and was advised accordingly.

[Pro_Candy]

So must a wali be the leader of the community, or can it be any adult male? Can the wali be someone from the prospective husband's family? Of course that wouldn't be fair on the woman, I'm not asking if it's advisable, just if the marriage would be valid under those conditions?

[`asiya]

So must a wali be the leader of the community, or can it be any adult male? Can the wali be someone from the prospective husband's family? Of course that wouldn't be fair on the woman, I'm not asking if it's advisable, just if the marriage would be valid under those conditions?



The verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands”

[al-Baqarah 2:232]

“And do not marry Al-Mushrikaat (idolatresses) till they believe (worship Allaah Alone)”

[al-Baqarah 2:221]

“and marry those among you who are single”

[al-Noor 24:32]

The point here is that these verses clearly stipulate that there be a guardian in marriage, because Allaah is addressing the guardian with regard to the marriage of the woman under his care. If the matter were up to her and not him, there would be no need to address him.

It is indicative of Imam al-Bukhaari’s deep understanding of issues of sharee’ah that he quoted these verses in a chapter which he entitled “Baab man qaala la nikaaha illa bi wali (Chapter on those who say that there is no marriage without a guardian).”

It was narrated that Abu Moosa said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage without a guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Abu Dawood, 2085; Ibn Maajah, 1881. Classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi, 1/318)

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. But if the marriage is consummated then the mahr is hers because she has allowed him to be intimate with her. If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1102; Abu Dawood, 2083; Ibn Maajah, 1879. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1840)

Secondly: If her guardian prevents her from marrying the person she wants for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the role of guardian passes to the next closest relative, so it passes from the father to the grandfather, for example.

Thirdly: if all of her guardians prevent her from getting married for no valid reason according to sharee’ah, then the ruler is her guardian, because of the hadeeth quoted above (“…If they dispute, then the ruler is the guardian of the one who has no guardian”)

Fourthly: if there is no guardian and no ruler, then her marriage is to be arranged by a man who has authority in the place where she is, such as the head of a village, or the governor of a province, and so on. If there is no such person, then she should appoint a trustworthy Muslim man to arrange her marriage.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

If there is no relative who can act as her guardian, then the position of guardian passes to the one who is most fit among those who have any kind of authority in matters other than marriage, such as the head of a village, the leader of a caravan, and so on.
Al-Ikhtiyaaraat, p. 350.

Ibn Qudaamah said: If a woman does not have a guardian and there is no ruler, then there was narrated from Ahmad that which indicates that her marriage should be arranged by a man of sound character, with her permission.

Al-Mughni, 9/362.

Shaykh ‘Umar al-Ashqar said:

If there is no ruler of the Muslims, or if the woman is in a place where the Muslims have no ruler, and she has no guardian at all, like the Muslims in America and elsewhere, if there are Islamic institutions in that country that take care of the Muslims’ affairs, then they should arrange her marriage. The same applies if the Muslims have a leader who is in charge or someone who is responsible for their affairs.

Al-Waadih fi Sharh Qanoon al-Ahwaal al-Shakhsiyyah al-Urduni, p. 70

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2163304&postcount=14

[brjimc]

So must a wali be the leader of the community, or can it be any adult male? Can the wali be someone from the prospective husband's family? Of course that wouldn't be fair on the woman, I'm not asking if it's advisable, just if the marriage would be valid under those conditions?

A wali can be your mahram or if you dont have a mahram, can be anyone known in the community for his trustworthiness and piety. Typically this is a scholar but doesnt have to be.

[the_middle_road]

I'm not going to let my sheikh marry me off to a man who marries me (as a second wife) out of pity. And the way my sheikh has handled (or not handled) things for me in the past, I have no trust in him whatsoever.

Just remember that your wali, if you have one, can't do anything without your consent.

Abu Hurairah (ra) narrated that the Messenger of Allah (swt) said: "A non-virgin woman (divorced or widowed) is not to be married except after consulting her nor can a virgin be married except with her consent." The people asked, "O Messenger of Allah! How is her consent (to be known)?" He said: "If she remains silent." (Agreed upon)