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View Full Version : Tasawwuf & sayings of Muslim Scholars (Salaf & Khalaf)



HelpingHand
20-09-07, 11:13 AM
Asslamo Allaikum,

A typical denier of Tasawwuf will read these quotes and react in the following manner:

1) Try to deny their authenticity (please try)

2) Say that the Salaf understood Tasawwuf to be “Zuh’d (asceticism) and not the Tareeqas which are prevalent today…for this 2nd course of action I produce:

a) Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab (RA):

http://www.as-sahwah.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1207&


At-Tareeqah as-Soofiyyah:

And we do not reject at-Tareeqah as-Soofiyyah, and the purification of the inner self from the evil qualities of disobedience to Allaah connected to the heart and the limbs, as long as the person abides by the laws of the Sharee'ah and the correct methodology. And we do not try to come up with lengthy justifications for any aberrancies in his statements or actions.
And we do not depend on, ask for help from, seek victory from, or place our trust in all of our affairs except upon Allaah ta'aalaa, for He is Sufficient for us, and what an Excellent Trustee; an Excellent Master and an Excellent Helper. And may Allaah bless Muhammad and his family and companions, and grant them peace.
Ad-Durar as-Saniyyah fee al-Ajwibah an-Najdiyyah

b) Shaykhul-Ibn Taymiyaah (RA):
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2112691&postcount=10


And now to the quotes themselves, enjoy!


“He has succeeded who purifies himself” (Qur’an 87:14).

Let us first of all define what a sufi is:

Sufyan al-Thawri explained: One who follows the path of tasawwuf, “He who gazes at the Real in proportion to the state in which He maintains him” (Bundar). They wore wool (sûf): “I found the redress of my heart between Makka and Madina with a group of strangers * people of wool and cloaks” (ashâb sûf wa `abâ’). [cited from Khalaf ibn Tamim by al-Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala’ (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:203)].

`Abd al-Qadir al-Baghdadi mentioned the two terms zahid and sufi interchangeably so the term “sufi” is a second-century name applied to a type of Muslim earlier known as “zahid.” (`Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, al-Farq Bayn al-Firaq ( Beirut : Dar al-Kutub al-`Ilmiyya, n.d.) 242-243).

Abu `Ali al-Rudhabari said: “al-sufi man labisa al-sufa `ala al-safa- The Sufi is the one who wears wool on top of purity.” (Suyuti, Ta’yid al-Haqiqat al-`Aliyya (Cairo: al-matba`a al-islamiyya, 1352/1934) p. 15).

Hasan al-Basri:
Ibn al-Jawzi wrote in Adab al-Shaykh al-Hasan ibn Abi al-Hasan al-Basri that al-Hasan al-Basri left behind a white cloak (jubba) made of wool which he had worn exclusively of any other for the past twenty years, winter and summer, and that when he died it was in a state of immaculate beauty, cleanness, and quality. (Ibn al-Jawzi, Sifat al-safwa 2(4):10 (#570).

Ibn Qayyim relates a story about the qualities of Hassan al-Basri in his biographies of Sufis entitled Hilyat al-awliya’ (The adornment of the saints). (Ibn al-Qayyim, Rawdat al-muhibbin p. 225).

The muhadith Abu Nu`aym al-Isfanahi (d. 430) mentions in his biographies of Sufis entitled Hilyat al-awliya’ (The adornment of the saints) that it is Hasan al-Basris student `Abd al-Wahid ibn Zayd (d. 177) who was the first person to build a Sufi khaniqa or guest-house and school at Abadan. (Abu Nu`aym, Hilyat al-awliya’ 6:155).

Imam al-Ghazali relates al-Hasan’s words(that’s is narrated by Muslim, Ahmad, Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah) on Jihad al-nafs in the section of his Ihya’ entitled Kitab riyadat al-nafs wa tahdhib al- akhlaq wa mu`alajat amrad al-qalb (Book of the training of the ego and the disciplining of manners and the healing of the heart’s diseases).
Sufyan al-Thawri:

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya relates in Madarij al-salikin, and Ibn al-Jawzi in the chapter entitled “Abu Hashim al-Zahid” in his Sifat al-safwa after the early hadith master Abu Nu`aym in his Hilyat al-awliya’, that Sufyan al-Thawri said:

“If it were not for Abu Hashim al-Sufi I would have never perceived the presence of the subtlest forms of hypocrisy in the self… Among the best of people is the Sufi learned in jurisprudence.” (Ibn Qayyim, Madarij al-salikin; Ibn al-Jawzi, Sifat al-safwa ( Beirut : dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyya, 1403/1989).

Imam Malik:
و من تصوف و لم يتفقه فقد تزندق

من تفقه و لم يتصوف فقد تفسق

و من جمع بينهما فقد تخقق

“He who practices Tasawwuf without learning Sacred Law corrupts his faith, while he who learns Sacred Law without practicing Tasawwuf corrupts himself. Only he who combines the two proves true.”

It is related by the muhaddith Ahmad Zarruq (d. 899)[Ahmad Zarruq, Qawa`id al-tasawwuf (Cairo, 1310)], and the hafiz `Ali al-Qari al-Harawi (d. 1014)[ Ali al-Qari, Sharh `ayn al-`ilm wa-zayn al-hilm (Cairo: Maktabat al-Thaqafa al-Diniyya, 1989) 1:33], the muhaddiths `Ali ibn Ahmad al `Adawi (d. 1190)[ Ali al `Adawi, Hashiyat al `Adawi `ala sharh Abi al Hasan li risalat Ibn Abi Zayd al musammat kifayat al talib al rabbani li risalat Ibn Abi Zayd al Qayrawani fi madhhab Maalik (Beirut: Dar Ihya’ al Kutub al `Arabiyah, ) 2:195] and Ibn `Ajiba (d. 1224)[Ibn `Ajiba, Iqaz al himam fi sharh al hikam (Cairo: Halabi, 1392/1972) p. 5 6.].

Imam al-Shafi`i:
Imam Shafi’i said: “ a faqih and a sufi[sufiyyan ]: do not be only one of them, Verily, by Allah (SWT)’s truth, I am advising you sincerely.” (al-Shafi`i in Diwan, p. 47 see also: Diwan p. 66 where Imam Shafi’i gives the advise to be both a faqih and sufi).

Imam Shafi`i said: “Three things in this world have been made lovely to me: avoiding affectation, treating people kindly, and following the way of tasawwuf.” (The muhaddith al-`Ajluni also relates that in Kashf al-khafa wa muzil al-albas (1:341 #1089).

Imam al-Shafi`i said: “I accompanied the Sufis and received from them but three words: their statement that time is a sword: if you do not cut it, it cuts you; their statement that if you do not keep your ego busy with truth it will keep you busy with falsehood; their statement that deprivation is immunity.” (Ibn al-Qayyim in his Madarij al-salikin (3:128) and al- Suyuti in his Ta’yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya (p. 15)).

[B]Imam Abu Hanifa:
Ibn `Abidin relates in his al Durr al mukhtar that Imam Abu Hanifa said: “If it were not for two years, I would have perished.”

Ibn `Abidin comments: “For two years he accompanied Sayyidina Ja`far al-Sadiq and he acquired the spiritual knowledge that made him a gnostic in the Way… Abu `Ali Daqqaq (Imam Qushayri’s shaykh) received the path from Abu al-Qasim al-Nasirabadi, who received it from al Shibli, who received it from Sari al-Saqati who received it from al Ma`ruf al Karkhi, who received it from Dawud at Ta’i, who received the knowledge, both the external and the internal, from the Imam Abi Hanifa.” (Ibn `Abidin, Hashiyat radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar 1:43).

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal:
Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Saffarini al-Hanbali (d. 1188) relates in his Ghidha’ al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab from Ibrahim ibn `Abd Allah (SWT) al-Qalanasi that Imam Ahmad said about the Sufis: “I don’t know people better than them.” (al-Saffarini, Ghidha’ al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab (Cairo: Matba`at al-Najah, 1324/1906) 1:120).

al-Harith al-Muhasibi:
The teacher of al-Junayd, al-Harith al-Muhasibi was a sufi. `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, Taj al-Din al-Subki, and Jamal al-Din al-Isnawi all reiterate the statement whereby “Upon the books of al-Harith ibn Asad al-Muhasibi on kalam, fiqh, and hadith rest those among us who are mutakallim (theologian), faqih (jurist), and sufi.” (’Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, Kitab Usul al-Din p. 308-309; Taj al-Din Subki, Tabaqat al-shafi`iyya 2:275; Jamal al-Din al-Isnawi, Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya 1:(#9)26-27).

al-Qasim ibn `Uthman al-Ju`i:
al-Qasim ibn `Uthman al-Ju`i took hadith from Sufyan ibn `Uyayna. Al-Dhahabi writes about him in Siyar a`lam al-nubala’: “al-`Abdi, known as Qasim al-Ju`i: The Imam, the exemplar, the saint, the Muhaddith… the Shaykh of the Sufis and the friend of Ahmad ibn al-Hawari.” [#506] (al-imam al-qudwa al-wali al-muhaddith Abu `Abd Al-Malik Al-Qasim ibn ‘Uthman al-`Abdi al-Dimashqi, Shaykh as-sufiyya wa rafiq Ahmad ibn al-Hawari,’urifa bi al-Ju’i).

Imam al-Junayd al-Baghdadi:
al-Junayd al-Baghdadi, said: ”The Sufi is the one who wears wool on top of purity, followed the path of the Prophet( ittaba`a tariq al-mustafawa), endured bodily strains dedicating his life to worship and reclining from pleasures, and left behind all that pertains to the world.” (In `Afif al-Din Abu Muhammad `Abd Allah (SWT) Ibn As`ad al-Yafi`i (d. 768), Nashr al-mahasin al-ghaliya fi fadl mashayikh al-sufiyya ( Beirut : Dar Sadir, 1975).

Imam Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi:
Imam Abu Mansur `Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi said:

“Know that Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a are divided in eight groups of people… the sixth group being the Sufi Ascetics ( al-zuhhad al-sufiyya), who have seen things for what they are and therefore have abstained, who have known by experience and therefore have taken heed truly, who have accepted Allah (SWT)’s allotment and contented themselves with what is within reach. Their religion is the declaration of singleness and the disavowal of similitude. Their school is the commital of matters to Allah (SWT), reliance upon Him, submission to His order, satisfaction with what they have received from Him, and shunning all objection to Him. “Such is the bounty from Allah (SWT), He bestoweth it upon whom He will, and Allah (SWT) is of infinite bounty”. (`Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, al-Farq bayn al-firaq ( Beirut : dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyya, n.d.) 242-243).

He also says the following: “The book Tarikh al-sufiyya [History of the Sufis, more commonly known as Tabaqat al-sufiyya or layers of the Sufis] by Abu `Abd al-Rahman Sulami comprises the biographies of nearly a thousand sheikhs of the Sufis, none of whom belonged to heretical sects and all of whom were of the Sunni community, with the exception of only three of them: Abu Hilman of Damascus, who pretended to be of the Sufis but actually believed in incarnationism ( hulul); Husayn ibn Mansur al-Hallaj, whose case remains problematic, though Ibn `Ata’ Allah (SWT), Ibn Khafif, and Abu al-Qasim al-Nasir Abadi approved of him [as did the Hanbalis Ibn `Aqil, Ibn Qudama, and al-Tufi]; and al-Qannad, whom the Sufis accused of being a Mu`tazili and rejected, for the good does not accept the wicked.” (`Abd al-Qahir al-Baghdadi, Usul al-din p. 315-16).

Imam al-Ghazali:
Imam Al-Gazali says: “The Sufi path consists in cleansing the heart from whatever is other than Allah (SWT)… I concluded that the Sufis are the seekers in Allah (SWT)’s Way, and their conduct is the best conduct, and their way is the best way, and their manners are the most sanctified. They have cleaned their hearts from other than Allah (SWT) and they have made them as pathways for rivers to run, carrying knowledge of Allah (SWT).” (al-Ghazali, al Munqidh min al dalal, p. 131).

Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi:
Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi wrote: “The summary of what the Sufis say is that the way to the knowledge of Allah (SWT) is self-purification and renunciation of material attachments, and this is an excellent way… Sufis are a folk who work with reflection and the detaching of the self from materialistic trappings. They strive in order that their inner being be solely occupied with the remembrance of Allah (SWT) in all of their occupations and their actions, and they are characterized by the perfection of their manners in dealing with Allah (SWT). Verily these are the best of all the sects of human beings.” (Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, I`tiqadat firaq al-muslimin p. 72-73).

Imam al-Nawawi:
Shaykh al-Islam Imam Muhyiddin Yahya ibn Sharaf al-Nawawi writes in his short treatise entitled al-Maqasid fi al tawhid wa al-`ibada wa usul al-tasawwuf (The purposes in oneness, worship, and the foundations of self-purification): The specifications of the Way of the Sufis are five:

“to keep the Presence of Allah (SWT) in your heart in public and in private; to follow the Sunna of the Prophet by actions and speech; to keep away from people and from asking them; to be happy with what Allah (SWT) gave you, even if it is less; to always refer your matters to Allah (SWT).” (Al-Maqasid: Imam Nawawi’s Manual of Islam(Evanston: Sunna Books, 1994) p. 85-86).

The Imam also started writing a book on Tasawwuf, but unfortunately died before he could complete it. The title of the book is: Bustan al-`arifin fi al-zuhd wa al-tasawwuf (The garden of the gnostics in asceticism and self-purification). (see al-Nawawi, Bustan al-`arifin (Beirut: dar al-kitab al-`arabi,1405/1985). see also: al-Majmu: sharh al-Muhadhdhab. 20 vols. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Medina: al-Maktaba al-Salafiyya, n.d., 1.1718.
Sultan al-`ulama’ al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam al-Sulami:

al-Dhahabi calls him: “The shaykh, the imam, the scholar, the zahid, the knower, the Muhaddith, Shaykh al-Islam, the Peerless One of the Sufis…”( al-Dhahabi, Siyar a`lam al-nubala’ [#969]).

al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam al-Sulami who’s nickname is “Sultan al-`ulama’”(”Sultan of the Scholars.”) mentions that the Sufis are those meant by Allah (SWT)’s saying:

“Allah (SWT)’s party” ( 5:56 , 58:22), and he defines tasawwuf as “the betterment of hearts, through whose health bodies are healthy, and through whose disease bodies are diseased.” He considers the knowledge of external legal rulings a knowledge of the Law in its generalities, while the knowledge of internal matters is a knowledge of the Law in its subtle details.” (al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam, Qawa`id al-ahkam (Dar al-sharq li al-tiba`a, 1388/1968) 1:29, 2:212).

Taj al-Din al-Subki:
He says the following in Mu`id al-ni`am under the chapter entitled Sufism: “May Allah (SWT) give them life and greet them (Sufis), and may He place us with them in Paradise . Too many things have been said about them and too many ignorant people have said things which are not related to them… The truth is that those people left the world and were busy with worship. ” (al-Subki, Mu`id al-ni`am wa mubid al-niqam p. 190.)

Imam Abu Ishaq al-Shatibi al-Maliki:
He writes in his book al-I`tisam: “Many of the ignorant think that the Sufis are lax in conforming to Shari `a. Far be it from them to be attributed such a belief! The very first foundation of their path is the Sunna and the avoidance of what contravenes it! ” ( al-Shatibi, al-I`tisam min al-kutub, quoted in al-Muslim: majallat al-`ashira al-muhammadiyya (Dhu al-qi`da 1373).

Imam al-Shatibi also rejected the categorization of sufis and tasawwuf as an innovation in Islam according to his criteria. ( Al-Shatibi, al-I`tisam (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-`Ilmiyya, 1415/1995) p. 150-159).

Ibn Khaldun:
Ibn Khaldun said in his famous Muqaddima:

“Tasawwuf is one of the latter-day sciences of the Law in the Islamic Community. The foundation of tasawwuf, however, is (more ancient, as seen in the fact) that these folk and their way have always been present among the Salaf and among the most senior of the Companions and the Successors, and their way is the way of truth and guidance.” (Muqaddimat ibn Khaldun, p. 328.Reproduced with permission from Shaykh M. Hisham Kabbani’s).

Imam al-Sakhawi:
Imam Shams al-Din Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Rahman al-Sakhawiis the greatest student of Ibn Hajar al-`Asqalani and In the section of his al-Jawahir al-mukallala fi al-akhbar al-musalsala devoted to the transmission of hadith through chains formed exclusively of Sufi narrators, Sakhawi states that he himself had received the Sufi path from Zayn al-Din Ridwan al-Muqri’ in Cairo. (A.J. Arberry, Sakhawiana: A Study Based on the Chester Beatty Ms. Arab. 773 (London: Emery Walker Ltd., 1951) p. 35).

Zakariyya ibn Muhammad Ansari:
Zakariyya ibn Muhammad Ansari was Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami’s teacher. In his commentary on Qusayri Ansari gives the following definitions for tasawwuf:

“Tasawwuf is the abandonment of deliberation. It is also said: It is the guarding of your senses and the mindfulness of your every breath; also: it is complete earnestness in the progression towards the King of all kings; also: it is the devotion to works of good and the avoidance of defects; and other explanations… The sufiyya or Sufis are called thus because the Truth — Allah (SWT) — has made them pure (safahum) and has favored them unreservedly (akhlasa lahum al-ni`am) through what He has allowed them to look upon.” (Zakariyya al-Ansari, Sharh al-risala al-qushayriyya (Cairo: dar al-kutub al-`arabiyya al-kubra, 1330/1912) p. 126).

Ibn Hajar al-Haytami:
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami was a student of Zakariyya al-Ansari. He was once asked about the legal status of those who criticizes Sufis: Is there an excuse for such critics? He replies in his Fatawa hadithiyya:

“It is incumbent upon every person endowed with mind and religion not to fall into the trap of criticizing these folk (Sufis), for it is a mortal poison, as has been witnessed of old and recently.” (Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Fatawa hadithiyya (Cairo: al-Halabi, 1970) p. 331).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami answers those who slander sufis in his fatwa entitled: “Whoever denies, rejects, or disapproves of the Sufis, Allah (SWT) will not make his knowledge beneficial.” (al-Haytami, Fatawa hadithiyya p. 52-54.)

Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani:
Ibn Hajar praises the Futuhat al-Makkiyya(Lisan al-Mizan (5:315)). He received from Abu Hurayra Ibn al-Dhahabi, from his father Imam al-Dhahabi, the Sufi cloak of Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn `Arabi according to Abu al-Mahasin al-Qaraqji (d. 1205) in “Kitab Shawariq al-Anwar al-Jaliyya fi Asanid al-Sadat al-Shadhiliyya” (Damascus 1522 fol. 59b.).

Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti:
Shaykh al-Islam al-Suyuti, the Renewer of the Eighth Islamic century and Mujtahid Imam said in his book on tasawwuf entitled Ta’yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya wa-tashyid al-tariqa al-shadhiliyya (The upholding of the lofty truth and the buttressing of the Shadhili path):

Tasawwuf in itself is a most honorable knowledge. It explains how to follow the Sunna of the Prophet and to leave innovation, how to purify the ego… and submit to Allah (SWT) truly… I have looked at the matters which the Imams of Shari`a have criticized in Sufis, and I did not see a single true Sufi holding such positions. Rather, they are held by the people of innovation and the extremists who have claimed for themselves the title of Sufi while in reality they are not… ( al-Suyuti, Ta’yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya wa-tashyid al-tariqa al-shadhiliyya, ed. `Abd Allah (SWT) ibn Muhammad ibn al-Siddiq al-Ghumari al-Hasani. (Cairo: al-matba`a al-islamiyya, 1934), p. 56-57.Reproduced with permission from Shaykh M. Hisham Kabbani’s The Repudiation of “Salafi” Innovations (Kazi, 1996) p. 386).

Junayd ibn Muhammad Abu al-Qasim al-Khazzaz (d. 297 AH/ 909-910 CE):
Sulami stated that Junayd used to say, “We did not learn (lit. take) Sufism by discourse, rather by hunger, abandoning the world, and severing [one’s attachments to] familiar and pleasant things; since Sufism consists of purity of [one’s] relationship with God. Its foundation is in turning away from the world, as Harith [al-Muhasibi] said, ‘My self (nafs) has turned away from the world; so I have spent my nights in wakefulness and my days in thirst.” (al-Sulami, Tabaqatal-Sufiyah, pp. 155-163).

Muhammad ibn Ali al-Qassab (d. 275 AH/ 888-89 CE):
“Sufism consists of noble behavior (akhlaq karima) that is made manifest at a noble time on the part of a noble person in the presence of a noble people.” (al-Khatib al-Baghdadi, Tarikh Baghdad, vol. 3, p. 62).

Ruwaym ibn Ahmad ibn Yazid, Abu Muhammad, al-Baghdadi (d. 303 AH/ 915-16 CE):“It is safer for you to sit with all [other] classes of people than it is for you to sit with Sufis. All people sit in accordance with “customary forms” (rusum), while Sufis sit in accordance with the truths (haqa’iq). (Tabaqatal-Sufiyah, selected from pp. 180-82).

Ibn Taymiyya:
Ibn Taymiyya claimed to be a Qadiri Sufi in a direct line of succession to Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani. He had great admiration for `Abd al-Qadir Gilani (commentary on Futuh al-ghayb volume 10:455-548 of the first Riyadh editionof the Majmu` fatawa Ibn Taymiyya) and in a manuscript of the Yusuf ibn `Abd al Hadi al-Hanbali entitled Bad’ al ‘ilqa bi labs al khirqa (The beginning of the shield in the wearing of the Sufi cloak), Ibn Taymiyya is listed within a Sufi spiritual genealogy with other well known Hanbali scholars. The links in this genealogy are, in descending order: `Abd al-Qadir al-Gilani (d. 561) - Abu `Umar ibn Qudama (d. 607) - Muwaffaq al Din ibn Qudama (d. 620) - Ibn Abi `Umar ibn Qudama (d. 682) - Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728) - Ibn Qayyim al Jawziyya (d. 751) - Ibn Rajab (d. 795)(Both Abu `Umar ibn Qudama and his brother Muwaffaq al-Din received the khirqa directly from Abd al-Qadir himself.) And in Ibn Taymiyyas own words: “I have worn the Sufi cloak of a number of shaykhs belonging to various tariqas (labistu khirqata at tasawwuf min turuqi jama’atin min al shuyukhi), among them the Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir al Jili, whose tariqa is the greatest of the well known ones. Further on he says: The greatest Sufi Way (ajall al-turuq) is that of my master(sayyidi) `Abd al-Qadir al Jili, may Allah (SWT) have mercy on him.” (Ibn `Abd al Hadi, Bad’ al ‘ilqa bi labs al khirqa, ms. al-Hadi, Princeton Library Arabic Collection, fols. 154a, 169b, 171b 172a; and Damascus University, copy of original Arabic manuscript, 985H.; also mentioned in at Talyani, manuscript Chester Beatty 3296 (8) in Dublin, fol. 67a). And in one of Ibn Taymiyyas own books he writes “I wore the blessed Sufi cloak of `Abd al-Qadir, there being between him and me two shaykhs.” (Manuscript Damascus, Zahiriyya #1186 H).

Another saying of Ibn Taymiyya: “As for the Sufis, they affirm the love (of Allah (SWT)), and this is more evident among them than all other issues. The basis of their Way is simply will and love. The affirmation of the love of Allah (SWT) is well-known in the speech of their early and recent masters, just as it is affirmed in the Book and the Sunna and in the agreement of the Salaf.” (Ibn Taymiyya, al-Ihtijaj bi al-qadar (Cairo: al-matba`a al-salafiyya, 1394/1974) p. 38).

Another saying of Ibn Taymiyya: The lawful is that by which one approaches near to Allah (SWT). It is the way of Allah (SWT). It is righteousness, obedience, good deeds, charity, and fairness. It is the way of those on the Sufi path (al-salikin), and the method of those intending Allah (SWT) and worshipping Him; it is that which is travelled by everyone who desires Allah (SWT) and follows the way of self-denial (zuhd) and religious practice, and what is called poverty and tasawwuf and the like. (Ibn Taymiyya, Majmu`at al-rasa’il wa al-masa’il ( Beirut : lajnat al-turath al-`arabi) 5:83).

Another saying of Ibn Taymiyya: “The word sufi was not well-known in the first three centuries but its usage became well-known after that. More than a few Imams and shaykhs spoke about it, such as Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Abu Sulayman al Darani, and others. It has been related that Sufyan al-Thawri used it. Some have also mentioned that concerning Hasan al Basri.” (Ibn Taymiyya, Majmu`a al-fatawa al-kubra 11:5).

And: “If the Sufi wayfarer has creatively employed his efforts to the external shar`i indications and sees no clear probability concerning his preferable action, he may then feel inspired, along with his goodness of intention and reverent fear of Allah (SWT), to choose one of two actions as superior to the other. This kind of inspiration (ilham) is an indication concerning the truth. It may be even a stronger indication than weak analogies, weak hadiths, weak literalist arguments (zawahir), and weak istisHaab which are employed by many who delve into the principles, differences, and systematizing of fiqh. (Majmu` fatawa Ibn Taymiyya 10:473-474).

In his commentary Ibn Taymiyya stresses that the primacy of the Shari `a forms the soundest tradition in tasawwuf, and to argue this point he lists over a dozen early shuyukh. (Majmu` fatawa Ibn Taymiyya 10:516).

Elsewhere also, such as in his al-Risala al-safadiyya, Ibn Taymiyya defends the Sufis as those who belong to the path of the Sunna and represent it in their teachings and writings. (Ibn Taymiyya, al-Safadiyya (Riyad: matabi` hanifa, 1396/1976) 1:267).

Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya:
Ibn Qayyim said: “Religion consists entirely of good character (al-dinu kulluhu khuluq). Whoever surpasses you in good character surpasses you in religion, and the same is true of tasawwuf. Al-Kattani said: “Tasawwuf is good character (al-tasawwuf khuluq). Whoever surpasses you in good character surpasses you in tasawwuf.” (Madarij al-salikin (2:307)).

Maulana Abul ‘Ala Maudoodi:
“Sufism is a reality whose signs are the love of Allah (SWT) and the love of the Prophet (s), where one absents oneself for their sake, and one is annihilated from anything other than them, and it is to know how to follow the footsteps of the Prophet (s). ..Tasawwuf searched for the sincerity in the heart and the purity in the intention and the trustworthiness in obedience in an individual’s actions.”

The Divine Law and Sufism: “Sufism and Shariah: what is the similitude of the two? They are like the body and the soul. The body is the external knowledge, the Divine Law, and the spirit is the internal knowledge.” (Mabadi’ al-Islam, p. 17).

Muhammad ‘Abduh:
“Tasawwuf appeared in the first century of Islam and it received a tremendous honor. It purified the self and straightened the conduct and gave knowledge to people from the Wisdom and Secrets of the Divine Presence.” (Majallat al-Muslim, 6th ed. 1378 H, p. 24).

Rashid Rida’:
“Sufism was a unique pillar from the pillars of the religion. Its purpose was to purify the self and to take account of one’s daily behavior and to raise the people to a high station of spirituality.” [Majallat al-Manar, 1st year, p. 726].

Abul Hasan ‘Ali al-Nadawi:
“These Sufis were initiating people on Oneness and sincerity in following the Sunnah of the Prophet (s) and to repent from their sins and to be away from every disobedience of Allah (SWT) ‘Azza wa Jall. Their guides were encouraging them to move in the way of perfect Love to Allah (SWT) ‘Azza wa Jall.

“…In Calcutta India, everyday more than 1000 people were taking initiation into Sufism …”by the influence of these Sufi people, thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands in India found their Lord and reached a state of Perfection through the Islamic religion.” (Muslims in India, p. 140-146).

And even Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab said:

“The adherents of religion are as follows: among them are those who concern themselves with learning and fiqh, and discourse about it, such as the jurists; and among them are those who concern themselves with worship and the pursuit of the Hereafter, such as the Sufis. Allah (SWT) has sent His Prophet with this religion which encompasses both kinds, that is: fiqh and tasawwuf.” (volume 3 of his complete works published by Ibn Sa`ud University, on page 31 of the Fatawa wa rasa’il, Fifth Question).

“My father Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and I do not deny or criticize the science of Sufism, but on the contrary we support it, because it purifies the external and the internal of the hidden sins, which are related to the heart and to the outward form. Even though the individual might externally be on the right way, internally he might be on the wrong way. Sufism is necessary to correct it.” (ad-Dia’at mukathaffa did ash-shaykh ibn Abdul Wahhab, p. 85).

Here is a list of 13 of 35 Hanbali Scholars who were on the path of Tasawwuf

* Abdul Ghani ibn Abdil Wahid ibn Ali ibn Surur ibn Hasan ibn Ja’far al-Jama’ili al-Madisi
o Born 541 Hijri
o The Hafidh, the Muhaddith, jurist, ascetic.
o Ibn an-Najjar said of him: “He narrated form many and authored beautiful works in the field of Hadith, and he was strong in memory and from the people of mastery and Tajwid. He was well grounded in all of the sciences of Hadith, knowing its rules, its fundamentals, its hidden defects, its authentic and inauthentic, its abrogating and abrogated, its rare wordings and its proper pronouciation, its Fiqh and its meanings, and (he was well grounded) in precision with narrators and their conditions.
o Al-Imam al-’Ulaymi said in his work, al-Manhaj al-Ahmad (2/191): “al-Muwaffaq (Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdisi) said: ‘al-Hafidh Abdul Ghani and I both donned the Khirqah upon the hand of Shaykh ul Islam Abdul Qadir (al-Jilani), and the both of us obtained Fiqh from him and benefit from his companionship, even though we only saw him for fifty nights of his life.”

* Muwaffaq ad-Din Abdullah ibn Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Qudamah ibn Miqdam ibn Nasr ibn Abdillah al-Maqdisi ad Dimashqi as-Salihi
o Born 541 Hijri
o Al-Imam al-Ulaymi said in al-Manhaj al-Ahmad (2/361): “The jurist, the ascetic, the Imam, the Rabbani, the Imam of Ahlus Sunnah, Mufti of the Ummah, Shaykh ul Islam, leader of the notable scholars, the notable of the devout worshippers and ascetics, the Imam of the Muhaddithun and the last of the Mujtahidun.”
o Shaykh ul Islam Ahmad ibn Taymiyah said: “No one after al-Awza’i has entered the Levant (Sham) possessing more fiqh than ash-Shaykh al-Muwaffaq.”

* Muhammad ibn AHmad ibn Abdillah ibn ‘Isa ibn Rijal Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Yunini al-Ba’li
o Born 572 Hijri
o Imam Ibn Kathir said in al-Bidayah wan Nihayah: “Taqqiyuddin, the jurist, the Hanbali, the Hafidh, the benefitial, the well versed, the pious worshipper. He heard from al-Khushu’i, Hanbal, Kindi, and al-Hafidh Abdul Ghani al-Maqdisi - who used to compliment him. He gained Fiqh from al-Muwaffaq (Ibn Qudamah), stuck with Shaykh Abdullah al-Yunini, bring him in the front (of the gatherings) and follow him in legal verdicts. He donned the Khirqah from the Shaykh of his Shaykh; Abdullah al-Bata’ihi, and became renowned in the science of Hadith…”
o Imam Ibn Muflih said in al-Maqsad al-Arshad (2/357): “And he donned the Khirqah of Tasawwuf from Shaykh Abdullah al-Bata’ihi - a companion of Shaykh Abdul Qadir (al-Jilani). He stuck closely with Shaykh Abdullah al-Yunini, the ascetic, the possessor of states (Ahwal) and miracles who was called the lion of Sham.”

* Yusuf ibn Abdir Rahman ibn Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Ali ibn Hammad ibn al-Jawzi al-Qurashi at-Tamimi al-Bakri al-Baghdadi
o The Jurist, the Scholar of Usul, the Exhorter, Born 580 Hijri
o Al-Ulaymi said: “He donned the Khirqah from Shaykh Diya’ ad-Din Abdul Wahab ibn Sakinah.”

* Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Abdillah ibn ‘Isa
o Burhanuddin said in al-Maqsad al-Arshad (2/356): “He was a possessor of states (Ahwal), miracles, litanies (Ar. Awrad), and acts of worship that he never left off or delayed past their time by anyones appearance-even if that person was from the kings. He did not believe in manifesting miracles. He used to say: ‘Just as Allah (SWT) ordered the Prophets to manifest their miracles (Mu’jizat), he ordered the Awliya’ to conceal their Karamat.”

* Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Waddah ibn Abi Sa’d
o Ibn Muflih said in al-Maqsad al-Arshad (2/261): “The jurist, the Muhaddith, the grammarian, the ascetic, the writer and linguist…”
o Then he said: “…He heard from the Gnostic Shaykh Ali ibn Idris al-Ya’qubi, and donned the Khirqah from him.”
o al-Ulaymi said about him: “He accompanied the righteous and donned the Khirqah of Tasawwuf.”

* Muhammad ibn Abdillah ibn ‘Umar ibn Abil Qasim al-Baghdadi
o Born 623 Hijri
o Ibn Muflih said in al-Maqsad al-Arshad (2/424): “…and he donned the Khirqah of Tasawwuf.”

* Muhammad ibn Abdillah al-Ba’li
o Born 1104 Hijri
o In an-Na’t al-Akmal it states about him: “…the Shaykh, the righteous, the Sufi, Abus Sa’adat.”

* Ahmad ibn Ibrahim ibn Nasrillah ibn Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Abdil Fattah ibn Hashim al-Qadi al-Kinani al-Asqalni
o Born 800 Hijri
o Ibn Humayd said in as-Suhab al-Wabilah (1/87): “And he donned the Khirqah of Tasawwuf with Talqin of Dhikr from az-Zain Abu Bakr al Khawwafi. He also accompanied al-Burhan al-Adkawi and donned it (the Khirqah) from his maternal uncle.”

* Abdul Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn Abdir Rahman ibn Yusuf ibn ‘Isa ibn Taqiyyuddin Abdul Wahid ibn Abdil Rahim ibn Hamad ibn Abdil Majid al-Qurashi al-’Umari al-’Ulaymi
o Born 860 Hijri
o The author of the book al-Manhaj al-Ahmad fi Tarjim Ashab al-Imam Ahmad
o Ash-Shaykh al-’Ulaymi said in his above-mentioned book that he donned the Khirqah with a high connected chain all the way to Shaykh Abdul Qadir al-Jilani. He said: “And I took the nobel Khirqah with a high and connected chain from as-Sayyid al-Jalil Muhyiuddin Abdul Qadir al-Jili (radiaAllahu ‘anhu) from our Shaykh- the Shaykh and Imam, the remnant of the notable scholars, the blessing of the era and worshippers, the Shaykh of the reciters in al-Quds ash-Sharif and in all of the other lands: Shamsuddin Abu Abdillah Muhammad ibn Musa ibn ‘Imran al-Muqri al-Hanfi - May Allah (SWT) envelop him in His mercy and enter him into His spacious gardes. He clothed me with it (the Khirqah) with his own two blessed hands on Yawm al-Ahad (i.e. Sunday) after Dhuhr, the 16th of Sha’ban, in the year 871 in the noble Masjid al-Aqsa - may Allah (SWT) honor it and magnify it - at the gate of al-Hadd from the western side…”

* Ahmad ibn ‘Abdil Aziz ibn Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Rashid ash-Shihab al Qahiri
o Born 861 Hijri
o In ad-Daw’ al-Lami’ (1/349): “He was born approximately on one of the two Jumadas (Jumad al-Uwla or Jumad ath-Thaniyah) in the year 861. He grew up on the outskirts of Akka in Cairo. There, he grew up and memorized the Qur’an and other books suck as: al-’Umdah, al-Mughni, the Alifyah in grammar, the Mulhah, most of at-Tufi and the Shatibiyyah.”
o ash-Sha’rawi said, as quoted by Ibn Humayd in as-Suhab al-Wabilah (1/159): “In the beginning of his days, he used to censure the Sufis, but when he gathered with Sidi Ali al-Khawwas and others, he listened to them attentively and believed them. After that, he used to severely regret not formerly gathering with them in the beginning of his days. After this, the path was opened for him and he was given a mighty Kashf (unveiling-disclosure) before his death.”

* Ahmad ibn Abdillah ibn Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Halabi al-Ba’li ad-Dimashqi
o Born 1108 Hijri
o Al-Imam al-Muradi said of him in Sulk ad-Durrar (1/131): “He is the Shaykh, the Imam, the ascetic, the abstemious, the jurist. He was a virtuous scholar acting according to his knowledge. He was a devout worshipper, humble, submissive, the remnant of practicing scholars, a scholar of inheritance and Usul. There was no one that we reached that was on his path despite the virtue which is undeniable…”
o Then he said: “He took the Khalwatiyyah path from the Ustadh, the Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Isa al-Kinani as-Salihi al-Hanbali and Shaykh Muhammad Aqilah al-Makki and Shaykh Abdullah al-Khalili…”

* Ahmad ibn Atiyyah ibn Abdil Hayy al-Qayyum ibn Abi Bakr ibn Dhahirah al-Makki
o Born 879 Hijri
o Shaykh Jarullah ibn Fahd said, as quoted by Ibn Humayd in as-Suhab al-Wabilah (1/187): “He took the path of Tasawwuf and for it, he travelled to the Mashayikh of Yemen, taking from Shaykh Isma’il al-Mushir’, and his brother Shaykh Junayd. He obtained Jadhab (divine pulling - a sufi term) and then he came to- and then his clothing became tattered. He stuck to the Mashayikh of Dhikr with seriousness and contentedness.”

“a day when wealth will not avail, nor sons, but only him who brings Allah (Ta’ala) a sound heart“

(Qur’an 26:88).

Abu 'Abdullaah
20-09-07, 05:39 PM
Walaikum Salaam

When you say sufi, it depends which 'tareeqa' you're talking about. I've seen some extremely disturbing practices by people who profess to be sufi. Even the most 'lax' groups have innovated beliefs and practices.

Um Abdullah
20-09-07, 06:14 PM
Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani:
Ibn Hajar praises the Futuhat al-Makkiyya(Lisan al-Mizan (5:315)). He received from Abu Hurayra Ibn al-Dhahabi, from his father Imam al-Dhahabi, the Sufi cloak of Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn `Arabi according to Abu al-Mahasin al-Qaraqji (d. 1205) in “Kitab Shawariq al-Anwar al-Jaliyya fi Asanid al-Sadat al-Shadhiliyya” (Damascus 1522 fol. 59b.).

Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah made mubahala against Ibn Arabi, he was arguing with a man who loved ibn Arabi, so ibn Hajar made mubahala with him and said:
O Allah curse me if Ibn Arabi is upon guidance
and the man said: O Allah curse me if Ibn Arabi is deviant

and the one who was cursed was the man, 2 months after that incident something happend to him and he died.
al Sakhawi , student of Ibn Hajar, mentioned this story in his book and he heard it directly from Ibn Hajar - rahimahu Allah-, his teacher.

HelpingHand
20-09-07, 06:57 PM
Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah made mubahala against Ibn Arabi, he was arguing with a man who loved ibn Arabi, so ibn Hajar made mubahala with him and said:
O Allah curse me if Ibn Arabi is upon guidance
and the man said: O Allah curse me if Ibn Arabi is deviant

and the one who was cursed was the man, 2 months after that incident something happend to him and he died.
al Sakhawi , student of Ibn Hajar, mentioned this story in his book and he heard it directly from Ibn Hajar - rahimahu Allah-, his teacher.

Asslamo Allaikum,

I believe that you know the difference between:

a) Praising a book;

b) having a difference of opinion with the Author on a matter (don't know if the matter is in the book etc.);

c) Approving the subject-matter of the book.

And this thread is about c.

Furthermore here are Shaykh Sakhawi (RA)'s clear Sufi links:

AL-SAKHAWI'S SUFI TEACHERS

In the section of his al-Jawahir al-Mukallala fi al-Akhbar al-Musalsala devoted to the transmission of hadith through chains formed exclusively of Sufi narrators, Ibn Hajar's star student, the hadith master Muhammad Shams al-Din al-Sakhawi states that he had received the Sufi path from Zayn al-Din Ridwan al-Muqri' in Cairo.1 In the same work al-Sakhawi also mentions several of his teachers and students of hadith who were Sufis. Here are the names of some of them, together with the words used by him to describe them in his biographical work al-Daw' al-Lami`:

1- Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad al-Hishi al-Halabi al-Shafi`i (b. 848) the head of the Bistamiyya Sufis in Aleppo, the mother trunk of the Naqshbandi Sufi order affiliated with Abu Yazid al-Bistami. He spent two years in Mecca with Sakhawi, who wrote him an ijaza or permission to teach. In this ijaza Sakhawi calls him: "Our master, the masterful Imam of merits and guidance, the Educator of Murids (students in the Sufi path), the Mainstay of Wayfarers in the Sufi path, the Noble Abu Bakr al-Hishi al-Halabi, may Allah preserve him and have mercy on his gracious predecessors (i.e. the chain of his shaykhs in the Sufi path), and may Allah grant us and all Muslims their benefits."2

2- Badr al-Din Hussayn ibn Siddiq al-Yamani al-Ahdal (d. 903): al-Sakhawi gave him a comprehensive ijaza granting him permission to teach all of his books.3

3- Abu al-Fath Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr al-Madani al-Maraghi (d. 859): Sakhawi took hadith from him. He was head of two Sufi khaniqas in Cairo, the Zamamiyya and the Jamaliyya. He led a life of seclusion for the most part, and wrote a commentary on Nawawi's manual of Law Minhaj al-talibin, and an epitome of Ibn Hajar's Fath al-bari. Because of his defense of Ibn `Arabi, he was murdered in front of the Ka`ba by a fanatic.4

4- Taqi al-Din Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad al-Qalqashandi (d. 867), also called `Abd Allah. He received the Sufi khirqa or cloak of authority in Cairo. He is said to have read the whole of Sahih al-Bukhari in three days while in Mecca. He lived in al-Quds, where al-Sakhawi met him and took hadith from him.5

5- Thiqat al-Din Abu al-`Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-`Uqbi (d. 861). He taught hadith and tajwid in Mecca, where Sakhawi studied under him.6

6- Kamal al-Din Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahid al-Sikandari al-Siwasi (d. 861). He was a master of all sciences and taught at the Madrasa al-Ashrafiyya in Cairo, after which he headed the Shaykhuni Sufi khaniqa. He authored many books.7

7- Abu `Abd Allah Muhammad ibn `Ali al-Husayni al-Qahiri al-Shafi`i al-Sufi (d. 876). Al-Munawi's deputy judge in Cairo, a student of `Izz al-Din ibn Jama`a, Jalal al-Din al-Bulqini and many others, and a student and friend of Sakhawi's teacher Ibn Hajar whose massive work Fath al-Bari he copied twice. A teacher of fiqh and hadith, he wrote an epitome of Ibn al-Athir's Kitab al-Ansab. He was an old acquaintance of Sakhawi's father, and consequently treated Sakhawi himself "with indescribable respect." He was one of the ten students to whom Ibn Hajar gave his authority in teaching hadith after him.8

8- Abu Khalid Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr al-Jibrini (d. 860). He was a writer, archer, horseman, and Sufi shaykh at the zawiya (alcove-mosque) of Jibrin, where al-Sakhawi met him and took hadith from him. Sakhawi says of him: "He was handsome, modest, generous, courageous, and endowed with spiritual strength and virility after the shaykhs of true majesty."9

10- Zaki al-Din Abu al-`Abbas Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Ansari al-Khazraji al-Sa`di al-Muqri' al-Sufi (d. 875). An associate of Ibn Hajar and a prolific writer, he wrote an autobiography in more than fifty volumes, although Sakhawi said he was unaffected, congenial, readily given to tears, and quick of repartee.10

11- Thiqat al-Din Abu `Ali Mahmud ibn `Ali al-Sufi al-Khaniki (d. 865). Born and raised in Cairo's Khaniqa al-Siryaqusiyya where he taught late in life. He died while at Mecca for the pilgrimage.11

12- Abu al-Faraj `Abd al-Rahman ibn Khalil al-Dimashqi al-Sufi (d. 869). He was a muhaddith. Al-Sakhawi studied under him in Cairo and at the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus.12



NOTES

1A.J. Arberry, Sakhawiana: A Study Based on the Chester Beatty Ms. Arab. 773 (London: Emery Walker Ltd., 1951) p. 35.

2 al-Sakhawi, al-Daw' al-lami` 11:96-97, 74-75.

3 Ibid. 3:144-145.

4 Ibid. 7:162-165.

5 Ibid. 11:69-71.

6 Ibid. 2:212-213.

7 Ibid. 8:127-132.

8 Ibid. 8:176-178.

9 Ibid. 7:197.

10 Ibid. 2:146-149.

11 Ibid. 10:140-141.

12 Ibid. 4:76.

HelpingHand
20-09-07, 07:00 PM
Walaikum Salaam

When you say sufi, it depends which 'tareeqa' you're talking about. I've seen some extremely disturbing practices by people who profess to be sufi. Even the most 'lax' groups have innovated beliefs and practices.

Asslamo Allaikum,

I agree with you 100% and I (like the Scholars on Qur'aan/Sunnah) disagree with the disturbing practises (Bid'aas) and baseless Aqaid bordering on Shirk...

Nevertheless you can't disagree with Tasawwuff (wholly) based on bad apples...

Allah knows best.

P.S: Whatever is against the Qur'aan/Sunnah we throw it out, simple as.

Abu 'Abdullaah
20-09-07, 07:19 PM
Walaikum Salaam

Did Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) really claim to be a Qadiri Sufi? Please post the source.

Um Abdullah
20-09-07, 07:23 PM
If Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah praised his book, he definitly didn't praice ibn Arabi himself, he considered him a deviant, and hsi praising of a book does not mean he would praise the sufi tariqas of today and what they do.
and it doesn't matter if al sakhawi rahimahu Allah had sufi links or not, I am talking about Ibn Hajar and Ibn Arabi, and what his view of Ibn Arabi was, and that his view was correct.

Um Abdullah
20-09-07, 07:28 PM
Walaikum Salaam

Did Ibn Taymiyyah (rahimahullah) really claim to be a Qadiri Sufi? Please post the source.

it seems to me that sufis believe that whoever wears a sufi cloak is a sufi??

Fais
20-09-07, 07:30 PM
:rotfl:

Ghuraba 87
20-09-07, 07:32 PM
Why is there a necessity to call yourself anything but muslim? Is the ter "muslim" too ordinary? I follow quran and the sunnah of prophet Muhammed sallallahu aleyhi we sellem, and nothing else. If the first generation of muslims did not do it why should we do it? Some people might argue that we live in a bad era. And that muslims need to go a step beyond the first generations to stronghold their iman. But Muhammed Sallallahu Aleyhi we sellem said "The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter (i.e. the first three generations of Muslims)" so based on that no matter how much what you do you will never be as good as the first 3 generations. I just dont like the idea of calling oneself anything other than a muslim. Islam should not be divided if you want to practice a "new way" of worship that the prophet sallallahu aleyhi we sellem did not teach or was not mentioned in Quraan i kerim that is your choice. But if you introduce that to others and teach them as it was practiced by Muhammed Sallallahu aleyhi we sellem then you are not only hurting yourself but also damaging Islam. I am sure of my muslim brothers and sisters that noone ever even thinks of corrupting or innovating in islam. However, the cursed iblis lures us in the most unseen and innocent way. As i said why take a chance? Quraan and Sunnah are enough for me . I dont need to go follow someone else to teach me to be pure. May Allah subhane we teala guide us as he knows best.

Um Abdullah
20-09-07, 07:52 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

I agree with you 100% and I (like the Scholars on Qur'aan/Sunnah) disagree with the disturbing practises (Bid'aas) and baseless Aqaid bordering on Shirk...

Nevertheless you can't disagree with Tasawwuff (wholly) based on bad apples...

Allah knows best.

P.S: Whatever is against the Qur'aan/Sunnah we throw it out, simple as.

wa alaykum assalam

:up:

we are not disagreeing here.

al-ghazalli
20-09-07, 10:07 PM
it seems to me that sufis believe that whoever wears a sufi cloak is a sufi??

Syeda I do not believe this is a very fair statement coming from a student of knowlodge :(

Whatever follows in line with Sharia is Tasawwuf, whatever disagrees with Sharia is not tasawwuf.

Imam Ibn Taymiyah was considered a sufi by some, but even if we disagree then we know for a fact that Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah) praised many Sufi's and many sufi concepts, he spoke and gave dars on fana and the Awliya of Allah.


May Allah Bless Him and be Pleased with Him.

HelpingHand
20-09-07, 11:16 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

The purpose of the thread is to show:

a) The word Tassawuuf was indeed used by Salaf

b) Tassawuuf is part of Islam (or you may call it Ihsan, Spiritual Islam etc.)

c) It was accepted by Scholars such as Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahab (RA) (see post from IA!)

It is common-sense to say that anything contradictory to Qur'aan/Sunnah cannot be deemed Islamic let alone Tassawuuf and require no further explanation...

The references to Shaykhul-Islam Ibn-Taymiyyah (RA) and other have been given & extensively quoted & I agree that him belonging to Qadri Silsila is a matter of argument but his opinions on Tassawuff & Support is open and quoted!

The assertion that Ibnul-Hajr Asqalani (RA) wouldn't approve of Tareeqas of today is just that, an empty assertion (unsubstantiated words) with no backing & don’t require/necessicitate an answer …

Unfortunately since the point is not hitting home let me repeat
myself, “anything contradictory to Qur'aan/Sunnah cannot be deemed Islamic let alone Tassawuuf”

There have been scholars in the history of Islam such as most recent examples from the sub-continent oft quoted on other forums (& well known):

a) Shah Ismael Shaheed (RA) (writer of Taqwiyatul-Eeman) (see Siratul-Mustaqeem)

b) Shah Wali-ullah (RA) (See Hujjatullahil Baaligha)

c) Anwar Shah Kashmiri (who the respected Sister is fond of asserting to confine the meaning of Sifat of Allah (SWT) to Dhahir (quoted from Fathal-Bari by Sister in question)) (See Akabir of Deoband)....This would mean a Scholar that the Sister believing to be on Athari Aqeedah to be a Sufi of Chishti Silsila!

All of the above (and many more) have been Sufees i.e. followers of Tareeqa without a shadow of a doubt…

P.S: There is nothing to debate about, refute the references in question and sayings of the Salaf and we will go from there, Insha'Allah.

Contextualising and saying that they won’t approve of today’s Tareeqas and “YES” doesn’t mean “YES” but means “NO” is old games.



P.S: To the brother who says that we should call ourselves Muslim, let me quote some examples:

1) Sufees call themselves "Muslims" and also profess to & in practise follow the Sunnah of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam)

2) Consider these....

a) Imam of Aqeedah: Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi al-Hanafi
b) Heard of Imam Nawawi (RA): Abu Zakaria Mohiuddin Yahya ash-Shaf'ae
c) Ibn Rajab (RA): Zaynuddeen `Abdur-Rahmaan ibn Ahmad ibn `Abdir-Rahmaan ad-Dimashqee Al-Hanbali
d) Qadhi Iyad: Abu'l-Fadl 'Iyad ibn Musa ibn 'Iyad al-Yahsubi Al-Maliki

You want me to keep going where scholars have used names in additon to Muslim?

Ramadhan Mubarak to all!

Um Abdullah
21-09-07, 01:23 AM
Syeda I do not believe this is a very fair statement coming from a student of knowlodge :(

Whatever follows in line with Sharia is Tasawwuf, whatever disagrees with Sharia is not tasawwuf.

Imam Ibn Taymiyah was considered a sufi by some, but even if we disagree then we know for a fact that Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah) praised many Sufi's and many sufi concepts, he spoke and gave dars on fana and the Awliya of Allah.


May Allah Bless Him and be Pleased with Him.

brother I actually meant it to be a question, that is why i put question marks at the end

Skilly
21-09-07, 01:53 AM
The problem I have.
1. Is that what is tawassuf?

I am not talking linguistically but in belief and practice.

2. Second when someone say's "what follows in line with shariah is tawassuf"
is what the hell is that tawassuf that is from the shariah?

3. Is it someon who derived from the shariaha special way?
Certain formulae?

This is the main problem I have while I am neglecting to consider other bad aspects amongst sufi's?

4. Next problem is the tariqas. People giving bayah. Spiritual Hierachy. e.t.c.

5. The other problem is the mumbo Jumbo that comes out from them. Gross exaggeration, and wierd concept they have.

6. Lately I seen many secular/non-muslim insitute attack falsely non-sufi Muslim.
Their is alway's a Sufi in the background.
All I hear is Wahhabi, potraying false notion by the word, than after they tired of this word next comes salafi.
Now I have read a non-muslim article on Tableeghi and deobandi.
Same thing their was a Sufi in the background.

I have notice this media trend in the UK, and this seem to be somewhat common in the U.S.
I understand they have alterior motives but you must note Allah hate people of falsehood, and muslim who study are not so stupid.

What we need is those sincer sufi's who follow the Shariah in practice and belief to denounce this figureheads who not only are misguided people, attributing falsehood to muslim but also inevatibly attacking what we love i.e. Islam.

al faqeer
21-09-07, 02:06 AM
The problem I have.
1. Is that what is tawassuf?

I am not talking linguistically but in belief and practice.

2. Second when someone say's "what follows in line with shariah is tawassuf"
is what the hell is that tawassuf that is from the shariah?

3. Is it someon who derived from the shariaha special way?
Certain formulae?

This is the main problem I have while I am neglecting to consider other bad aspects amongst sufi's?

4. Next problem is the tariqas. People giving bayah. Spiritual Hierachy. e.t.c.

5. The other problem is the mumbo Jumbo that comes out from them. Gross exaggeration, and wierd concept they have.

6. Lately I seen many secular/non-muslim insitute attack falsely non-sufi Muslim.
Their is alway's a Sufi in the background.
All I hear is Wahhabi, potraying false notion by the word, than after they tired of this word next comes salafi.
Now I have read a non-muslim article on Tableeghi and deobandi.
Same thing their was a Sufi in the background.

I have notice this media trend in the UK, and this seem to be somewhat common in the U.S.
I understand they have alterior motives but you must note Allah hate people of falsehood, and muslim who study are not so stupid.

What we need is those sincer sufi's who follow the Shariah in practice and belief to denounce this figureheads who not only are misguided people, attributing falsehood to muslim but also inevatibly attacking what we love i.e. Islam.

Nah no

You see the Equation is easy , If you are Salafis as you claim then why do you reject the tassawuf of the salaf ?

Abandoned-Mind
21-09-07, 02:09 AM
Nah no

You see the Equation is easy , If you are Salafis as you claim then why do you reject the tassawuf of the salaf ?

lol He said define tassawuf.

Skilly
21-09-07, 02:15 AM
Nah no

You see the Equation is easy , If you are Salafis as you claim then why do you reject the tassawuf of the salaf ?

Their is a difference between rejecting something that is not part of Islam, and rejecting tawassuf.

Here is a good article.
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=699&category=19

Would you accept something that is not part of Islam? No. No matter what the opposition claims when it is clear (proven or more appropriately not proven) your would not, no matter what name it goes by.

The linguistic term is not the problem, but the reality.

"Beware of the newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance is in the Hellfire."

HelpingHand
21-09-07, 11:11 AM
Their is a difference between rejecting something that is not part of Islam, and rejecting tawassuf.

Here is a good article.
http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=699&category=19

Would you accept something that is not part of Islam? No. No matter what the opposition claims when it is clear (proven or more appropriately not proven) your would not, no matter what name it goes by.

The linguistic term is not the problem, but the reality.

"Beware of the newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance is in the Hellfire."

Asslamo Allaikum,

Typical diversionary tactics…

1) Find fault with the authenticity text; can’t do that

2) Question at least one of them and refute it; if that is answered; move onto

3) Declaring the understanding of the very scholars who are being quoted to be flawed; if that is answered; move onto

4) I don’t follow that particular scholar, “I follow the pure Qur’aan & the Sunnah”…


Tasawuff is part of Islam & the quotations from Salaf or Khalaf are correct and authentic.

Tareeqas are accepted as part of Tasawuff and the opinion of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab (taken from IA) is very clear and candid.

Your personal confusion and questioning makes no difference to the reality.

Now, there are differences of opinions about certain practises being conformant or contrasting to Sunnah and that is a matter of difference of opinion amongst Scholars just like there are valid differences of opinions in Fiqh!

You (and your compatriots) continue to focus on bad practises of Sufees to reject Tassawuuf (wholesale!)

It’s tantamount to Sufees using the bad habits/harsh behaviour of Madakhalees to reject acting on the Qur’aan/Sunnah and ignoring the good actions/thoughts/concerns/Dawah of “Salafi” Brothers/Sisters…

Ain’t the world a strange place!

P.S: Despite repeated assertions (4th time now!) that all actions MUST conform to Qur’aan/Sunnah you still keep banging on about the same thing!...

Skilly
21-09-07, 01:04 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

Typical diversionary tactics…

1) Find fault with the authenticity text; can’t do that

2) Question at least one of them and refute it; if that is answered; move onto

3) Declaring the understanding of the very scholars who are being quoted to be flawed; if that is answered; move onto

4) I don’t follow that particular scholar, “I follow the pure Qur’aan & the Sunnah”…

Assalamu alaikum bro.

I bit baffled at what you are accusing me off.
I am also bit baffled how you read my mind.



Tasawuff is part of Islam & the quotations from Salaf or Khalaf are correct and authentic.


Tareeqas are accepted as part of Tasawuff and the opinion of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab (taken from IA) is very clear and candid.




You see I never said anythig directly against Tasawuf.



I advise my brother's and sister's to go read book's on those scholar's quoted in the article and what they have to say on Sufism.




This way you would get a clearer picture than the candid report.




Your personal confusion and questioning makes no difference to the reality.


Exactly. First it does not make any difference to me although I should say I am rather curious than confused.
However the "Reality with the Sufi's" is so that their is confusion and question amongst the people.
Heck the reality is so that even their's confusion amongst the sufis.



Now, there are differences of opinions about certain practises being conformant or contrasting to Sunnah and that is a matter of difference of opinion amongst Scholars just like there are valid differences of opinions in Fiqh!


Bro I am not talking about fiqh.
I am talking about sufism.



You (and your compatriots) continue to focus on bad practises of Sufees to reject Tassawuuf (wholesale!)


I don't think so.



It’s tantamount to Sufees using the bad habits/harsh behaviour of Madakhalees to reject acting on the Qur’aan/Sunnah and ignoring the good actions/thoughts/concerns/Dawah of “Salafi” Brothers/Sisters…




Mate I don't care about Madkhalees. Their is issue is more got to do with their extreme in going against people.




Ain’t the world a strange place!

Yes it is a strange place.
We got sufi's doing VUlcan mind meld with shiekh spock.






P.S: Despite repeated assertions (4th time now!) that all actions MUST conform to Qur’aan/Sunnah you still keep banging on about the same thing!...




Assalamu alaikum bro.

the_middle_road
21-09-07, 01:18 PM
Quraan and Sunnah are enough for me . I dont need to go follow someone else to teach me to be pure. May Allah subhane we teala guide us as he knows best.

Do you claim to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah directly without learning from any scholar? Then this will lead you to misguidance. If you accept that it is necessary for one to learn from a teacher, on matters such as fiqh, Qur'an recitation, etc. then why do you say that you do not need a teacher to teach you to be pure. Just as you need a teacher to teach you fiqh, so too do you need a teacher to teach you how to purify your soul.

Peace.

Skilly
21-09-07, 01:32 PM
Assalamu alaikum middle road.

Maybe you are misunderstanding what he said.
Maybe he meant he does not need to a) follow someone blindly and b) without knowing the evidence from Quran & Sunnah.

al faqeer
21-09-07, 01:59 PM
lol He said define tassawuf.

Definition does not matter if you reject the word completely ,

Show us from Salafi teachings the place of Tasswuf in islam .

HelpingHand
21-09-07, 02:04 PM
Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Brother in Islam,

You seem to be missing key words in my reply & just want to divert from the topic which is Tasawwuf & sayings of Muslim Scholars (Salaf & Khalaf)

Lets look for the words “LIKE” & “tantamount” in my reply & for your convenience let me produce the meaning from the dictionary which is as follows:

LIKE = “similar or comparable to: There is nothing like a cold drink of water when one is thirsty. What was he like?”

TANTAMOUNT = adj. Equivalent in effect or value: a request tantamount to a demand

Now lets go through my text again!



Now, there are differences of opinions about certain practises being conformant or contrasting to Sunnah and that is a matter of difference of opinion amongst Scholars just like there are valid differences of opinions in Fiqh!




It’s tantamount to Sufees using the bad habits/harsh behaviour of Madakhalees to reject acting on the Qur’aan/Sunnah and ignoring the good actions/thoughts/concerns/Dawah of “Salafi” Brothers/Sisters…


Finally if you accept Tassawuff and disagree on certain practises; then OPEN a new thread and discuss those practises one at a time and let people who practise them provide evidence on a case by case basis…

Lastly silly statements like “Quraan and Sunnah are enough for me” and “I ONLY follow Qur’aan & Sunnah” imply (atleast implicitly) that the other Muslims deem that:

a) Quraan and Sunnah are NOT enough for them

b) They don’t follow Qur’aan & Sunnah

The statement & conclusions (implicit and/or explicit) are:

c) Moronic

d) Against the Sunnah as the Sunnah instructs us to have Husnud-Dhun with our Muslim brothers/sisters.

Abu 'Abdullaah
21-09-07, 05:36 PM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum

Akhee, I think the brother is asking (correct me if I'm wrong) for you to describe what Tasawwuf actually is. For example:

1. Linguistic meaning
2. Is it an act that is performed or is it a belief?
3. If it's an act, how is it done?
4. Is it considered Ibaadah?
5. Where does it fit into the Shariah
6. Proof from Qur'aan and/or Sunnah

Etc...

This is what I understood the brother's question to be.

HelpingHand
22-09-07, 10:49 AM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum

Akhee, I think the brother is asking (correct me if I'm wrong) for you to describe what Tasawwuf actually is. For example:

1. Linguistic meaning
2. Is it an act that is performed or is it a belief?
3. If it's an act, how is it done?
4. Is it considered Ibaadah?
5. Where does it fit into the Shariah
6. Proof from Qur'aan and/or Sunnah

Etc...

This is what I understood the brother's question to be.

Asslamo Allaikum,

Brother is not looking for answers, he is looking for a fight and debate and frankly half of the questions put forth are ridicolous!

Knowing him from many forums he knows exactly what the answers are of those questions (if indeed those are his questions)...

Is it an act that is performed or is it a belief? :(

Anyone with a BRAIN wouldn't answer that sort of questions

IF an attempt is made to answer it from scholars of Tassawuff, the end result will be to reject the scholars and name calling…

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 01:16 PM
Walaikum salaam

OK. I'm asking then. Why wouldn't you answer the questions?

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 03:18 PM
Brothers this is a precious month, lets do some dhikr instead of debating...

if one wants to know the basis of tasawwuf then it is the hadith of Jibreel and the commentary on the hadith by Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (Rahimullah) or Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (Rahimullah) should satisfy anyone.

Sufyan al-Thawri (May Allah be Pleased with Him) defined what a Sufi is beautifully;

One who follows the path of tasawwuf, “He who gazes at the Real in proportion to the state in which He maintains him” (Bundar). They wore wool (sûf): “I found the redress of my heart between Makka and Madina with a group of strangers * people of wool and cloaks” (ashâb sûf wa `abâ’). [cited from Khalaf ibn Tamim by al-Dhahabi, Siyar A`lam al-Nubala’ (Dar al-Fikr ed. 7:203)].

He then states;

“If it were not for Abu Hashim al-Sufi I would have never perceived the presence of the subtlest forms of hypocrisy in the self… Among the best of people is the Sufi learned in jurisprudence.” (Ibn Qayyim, Madarij al-salikin; Ibn al-Jawzi, Sifat al-safwa ( Beirut : dar al-kutub al-`ilmiyya, 1403/1989).

So we can gather that the practise of taawwwuf is all about the inner sciences and self purification and reflection upon one's own actions and the state of their hearts.


And Allah Knows Best.

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 04:08 PM
So we can gather that the practise of taawwwuf is all about the inner sciences and self purification and reflection upon one's own actions and the state of their hearts.
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

What are 'inner sciences'?

Self purification - Do you mean physically or mental/spiritual? In either case, is there anyone who doesn't do that?

Reflection - Again, is there anyone who doesn't do that?

[EDIT] - I just remembered something. Earlier on, I was thinking about a decision I made the other day and reflecting on whether it was the right one at the time etc... did I just practice tasawwuf?

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 04:27 PM
Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmtullah


What are 'inner sciences'?

The Sciences of the Heart and Spirtual Purification grab any book on the "purification of the heart"


Self purification - Do you mean physically or mental/spiritual? In either case, is there anyone who doesn't do that?

Tasawwuf deals more with the inner (spirtual reformation of the self). If everyone did that do you believe our world would be as evil as it is today?

Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi (Rahimullah) states;

“The summary of what the Sufis say is that the way to the knowledge of Allah is self-purification and renunciation of material attachments, and this is an excellent way… Sufis are a folk who work with reflection and the detaching of the self from materialistic trappings. They strive in order that their inner being be solely occupied with the remembrance of Allah in all of their occupations and their actions, and they are characterized by the perfection of their manners in dealing with Allah . Verily these are the best of all the sects of human beings.” (Fakhr al-Din al-Razi, I`tiqadat firaq al-muslimin p. 72-73).

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 05:33 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

My point is that others 'practice' self purification also. They do not call it tasawwuf nor call themselves sufi. Why is that?

Please give a very brief list on how one purify oneself. Don't say dhikr, I already know about that.

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 05:50 PM
Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmullah


My point is that others 'practice' self purification also. They do not call it tasawwuf nor call themselves sufi. Why is that?

Why do the Ulema of Usul call themselves The Scholars of Usul? of a fiqha or a muhaddith?

These are titles which denote an individuals specialization in a particular field.


Please give a very brief list on how one purify oneself

read the previous statements on this topic, it should give u more than a hint on what it means to travel on the path of tasawwuf.

Sultan al-`ulama’ al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam al-Sulami states;

“Allah ’s party” ( 5:56 , 58:22), and he defines tasawwuf as “the betterment of hearts, through whose health bodies are healthy, and through whose disease bodies are diseased.” He considers the knowledge of external legal rulings a knowledge of the Law in its generalities, while the knowledge of internal matters is a knowledge of the Law in its subtle details.” (al-`Izz ibn `Abd al-Salam, Qawa`id al-ahkam (Dar al-sharq li al-tiba`a, 1388/1968) 1:29, 2:212).

Zakariyya ibn Muhammad Ansari states;

“Tasawwuf is the abandonment of deliberation. It is also said: It is the guarding of your senses and the mindfulness of your every breath; also: it is complete earnestness in the progression towards the King of all kings; also: it is the devotion to works of good and the avoidance of defects; and other explanations… The sufiyya or Sufis are called thus because the Truth — Allah — has made them pure (safahum) and has favored them unreservedly (akhlasa lahum al-ni`am) through what He has allowed them to look upon.” (Zakariyya al-Ansari, Sharh al-risala al-qushayriyya (Cairo: dar al-kutub al-`arabiyya al-kubra, 1330/1912) p. 126).


If you still need more details on tasawwuf, I suggest you sit a Shaykh in your area who practises and ask him the details in regards to this. If you don't have access to a Shaykh. Pick up either Ihya Uloom Al-Din by Imam Ghazalli (Rahimullah) or "Purifcation of the Heart" by Imam Mawlid (Rahimullah), translated by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 05:57 PM
I think you missed my point. If self-purification=tasawwuf, then why doesn't everyone who practices self-purification call it as such. Why do some people call it tasawwuf but others don't?

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 06:12 PM
I think you missed my point. If self-purification=tasawwuf, then why doesn't everyone who practices self-purification call it as such. Why do some people call it tasawwuf but others don't?


with all due to respect Sidi, I believe you are missing the point, out of all the statements of the Ulema I have posted who follows them? who is prepared to sacrifice most of their time and give bayah to a shaykh, follow a tariqah and reads its awrad?

Who is willing to give up matierialistic possessions for spirtual insight? who is willing to divorce themselves from this life for the next realistically?

Who is willing to endure bodily strains dedicating his life to worship and reclining from pleasures, and leaving behind all that which pertains to this world?

This is what tasawwuf teaches and this is what the Mureeds are ordered to incorporate in their lifestyle.

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 07:29 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

See you lost me now. You started off by saying tasawwuf was about self-purification but then went on to mention bayah and becoming a mureed. What is the connection between self-purification and becoming a mureed. I don't see how the two are connected?

BTW, when I said you missed my point, I was referring to other 'groups' who would agree about purifying the heart and giving up certain materialistic lifestyles in order to achieve closeness to Allaah. Only they don't use the word tasawwuf.

Skilly
22-09-07, 09:00 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

Brother is not looking for answers, he is looking for a fight and debate and frankly half of the questions put forth are ridicolous!

Knowing him from many forums he knows exactly what the answers are of those questions (if indeed those are his questions)...



You know me from many forum?

hmm. So what forum are they brother?

Skilly
22-09-07, 09:20 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

, 1403/1989).

Imam Malik:
و من تصوف و لم يتفقه فقد تزندق

من تفقه و لم يتصوف فقد تفسق

و من جمع بينهما فقد تخقق

“He who practices Tasawwuf without learning Sacred Law corrupts his faith, while he who learns Sacred Law without practicing Tasawwuf corrupts himself. Only he who combines the two proves true.”

It is related by the muhaddith Ahmad Zarruq (d. 899)[Ahmad Zarruq, Qawa`id al-tasawwuf (Cairo, 1310)], and the hafiz `Ali al-Qari al-Harawi (d. 1014)[ Ali al-Qari, Sharh `ayn al-`ilm wa-zayn al-hilm (Cairo: Maktabat al-Thaqafa al-Diniyya, 1989) 1:33], the muhaddiths `Ali ibn Ahmad al `Adawi (d. 1190)[ Ali al `Adawi, Hashiyat al `Adawi `ala sharh Abi al Hasan li risalat Ibn Abi Zayd al musammat kifayat al talib al rabbani li risalat Ibn Abi Zayd al Qayrawani fi madhhab Maalik (Beirut: Dar Ihya’ al Kutub al `Arabiyah, ) 2:195] and Ibn `Ajiba (d. 1224)[Ibn `Ajiba, Iqaz al himam fi sharh al hikam (Cairo: Halabi, 1392/1972) p. 5 6.].

Imam al-Shafi`i:
Imam Shafi’i said: “ a faqih and a sufi[sufiyyan ]: do not be only one of them, Verily, by Allah (SWT)’s truth, I am advising you sincerely.” (al-Shafi`i in Diwan, p. 47 see also: Diwan p. 66 where Imam Shafi’i gives the advise to be both a faqih and sufi).

Imam Shafi`i said: “Three things in this world have been made lovely to me: avoiding affectation, treating people kindly, and following the way of tasawwuf.” (The muhaddith al-`Ajluni also relates that in Kashf al-khafa wa muzil al-albas (1:341 #1089).

Imam al-Shafi`i said: “I accompanied the Sufis and received from them but three words: their statement that time is a sword: if you do not cut it, it cuts you; their statement that if you do not keep your ego busy with truth it will keep you busy with falsehood; their statement that deprivation is immunity.” (Ibn al-Qayyim in his Madarij al-salikin (3:128) and al- Suyuti in his Ta’yid al-haqiqa al-`aliyya (p. 15)).

[B]Imam Abu Hanifa:
Ibn `Abidin relates in his al Durr al mukhtar that Imam Abu Hanifa said: “If it were not for two years, I would have perished.”

Ibn `Abidin comments: “For two years he accompanied Sayyidina Ja`far al-Sadiq and he acquired the spiritual knowledge that made him a gnostic in the Way… Abu `Ali Daqqaq (Imam Qushayri’s shaykh) received the path from Abu al-Qasim al-Nasirabadi, who received it from al Shibli, who received it from Sari al-Saqati who received it from al Ma`ruf al Karkhi, who received it from Dawud at Ta’i, who received the knowledge, both the external and the internal, from the Imam Abi Hanifa.” (Ibn `Abidin, Hashiyat radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar 1:43).

Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal:
Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Saffarini al-Hanbali (d. 1188) relates in his Ghidha’ al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab from Ibrahim ibn `Abd Allah (SWT) al-Qalanasi that Imam Ahmad said about the Sufis: “I don’t know people better than them.” (al-Saffarini, Ghidha’ al-albab li-sharh manzumat al-adab (Cairo: Matba`at al-Najah, 1324/1906) 1:120).






1) The 4 Imams have plenty of books written by themselves, or compiled by their students. Such books are available to us now. Why do we not find such promotion of Sufism in them?! Why is it always latter people (just like the ones referenced here) who attribute such notions to early scholars?!

2) These quotations do not include their Isnaad, how are they to be verified?!



Another proof of the bankruptcy of Sufis.

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 09:31 PM
See you lost me now. You started off by saying tasawwuf was about self-purification but then went on to mention bayah and becoming a mureed. What is the connection between self-purification and becoming a mureed. I don't see how the two are connected?

the two are interconnected, if you can not comprehend it please sit with a Shaykh and have him explain these things to you, many people now a days don't bother to sit at the feet of the Ulema to learn their deen, rather many think of themselves as self taught Scholars or talib al-ilm...another disease this Ummah suffers from.

Skilly
22-09-07, 09:31 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

A typical denier of Tasawwuf will read these quotes and react in the following manner:


2) Say that the Salaf understood Tasawwuf to be “Zuh’d (asceticism) and not the Tareeqas which are prevalent today…for this 2nd course of action I produce:


Ibn Taymiyya:


Another saying of Ibn Taymiyya: “The word sufi was not well-known in the first three centuries but its usage became well-known after that. ...(Ibn Taymiyya, Majmu`a al-fatawa al-kubra 11:5).

.

We all know how Ibn Taymiyaa criticised Sufis, he actually categorise them from those who was removed from ahul Sunnah to those who where more closer.
Anyway their is a book on it, soon as I find the book I will post it inshallah.

Anyway so you agree the Salaf was not even aware of the word Tawassuf?

and this word later appeared with a particular group?

Well Ibn Taymiyaah statement seem's to concur with point 2.

"Say that the Salaf understood Tasawwuf to be “Zuh’d (asceticism) and not the Tareeqas which are prevalent today"

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 09:35 PM
We all know how Ibn Taymiyaa criticised Sufis, he actually categorise them from those who was removed from ahul Sunnah to those who where more closer.

Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah) also praised many Sufi's also, have you bothered to read his Majmu Fatwa Volume 10&11?

You might be shocked by what you read, him talking about the Awliya and Fana.

http://www.islamweb.net/aqeda/ahl_alsunna/slaves_9.htm

Abu 'Abdullaah
22-09-07, 10:00 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

Most of my family are 'sufi'. When I was younger, I was made to give the bayah to a pir from Pakistan. Even then, whilst I was engrossed in the beliefs and practices, I was somewhat uncomfortable with some of what I saw and heard. I won't go into the details as it's not really relevant to the discussion.

So you are saying I should sit with a (sufi) Shaykh who will explain tasawwuf to me. I didn't practice or learn about Islaam for many years. Now, alhamdulillaah, I am learning and practising again but since having done so, I have never come across anything from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah about giving bayah to a Shaykh and becoming his mureed. The only ones who say I shoud do that are sufi and fail to bring me evidence from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah.

Like I was saying, and like how you have so far avoided in answering, I don't understand the connection between Zuhd and becoming a mureed. I don't know why some people (sufi) say Zuhd=tasawwuf but others don't. You can explain to me in laymans terms if you like, I won't bite your head off or anything. All I ask is that you have evidence from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah.

Barakallahu Feek.

al-ghazalli
22-09-07, 10:16 PM
So you are saying I should sit with a (sufi) Shaykh who will explain tasawwuf to me. I didn't practice or learn about Islaam for many years. Now, alhamdulillaah, I am learning and practising again but since having done so, I have never come across anything from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah about giving bayah to a Shaykh and becoming his mureed.

When did I say giving bayah is from the Qur`an & Sunnah? Shaykh Bin Bayyah (May Allah Protect Him) states it is recomended to give bayah to a Shaykh not an obligation.

Some Shaykh's may make Qiyas and state giving Bayah is wajib since the Sahaba give bayah to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) but the Maliki Ulema have a different understanding.

As for tasawwuf then the quotes from the Tabien (Students of the Sahaba) and the Classical Ulema should suffice for anyone.

They were the living proof of the Ummah and through them our deen was preserved.

This is why the Prophet (Upon Him be Peace) stated;

"The Ulema are the inheritors of the Prophets"

Abu 'Abdullaah
23-09-07, 03:32 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum
Some Shaykh's may make Qiyas and state giving Bayah is wajib since the Sahaba give bayah to the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) but the Maliki Ulema have a different understanding.I know about giving bayah to the Ameer but I haven't read or heard about anything other than that. So we can conclude then that giving bayah to a Shaykh is not from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah. Allaahu 'Alam.

If this is the case, I don't get how self-purification and giving bayah are interconnected as you said. Maybe you can explain that part a little more insha'Allaah.

Now we can come back to the other bit (feels like we're going round in circles). If one was to detach themselves from this materialistic world and do more acts of ibaadah in order to get closer to Allaah, why does a sufi call that tasawwuf, but someone else calls it zuhd?

luqman-haqq
23-09-07, 05:56 AM
If this is the case, I don't get how self-purification and giving bayah are interconnected as you said. Maybe you can explain that part a little more insha'Allaah.

Waalaikumsalaam,


In the hearts of man, there are a thousands of diseases. Anger, lust, resentment, envy, jealousy, hatred, arrogance etc etc.

Just as when your physical body is unwell, you see a physician or a doctor to cure or heal your body.

But when your spiritual self is sick, how do you treat it? By going to a true Sheikh. Only he can teach you and give you the tool/weapon to cut away all the diseases of the heart. We have to realise how imperfect, sinful, spiritually weak we are. To perfect ourself in the path of Tasawwuf, we cant do it alone.

This is the importance of giving Bayah to a Sheikh. Only he can identify the spiritual faults in us, guide us and perfect our hearts.

But in these modern times, there are very few who know the value & importance of giving Bayah to a Shiekh. May Allah guide us all.

the_middle_road
23-09-07, 08:36 AM
the two are interconnected, if you can not comprehend it please sit with a Shaykh and have him explain these things to you, many people now a days don't bother to sit at the feet of the Ulema to learn their deen, rather many think of themselves as self taught Scholars or talib al-ilm...another disease this Ummah suffers from.

The sad truth.

Abu 'Abdullaah
23-09-07, 02:46 PM
Waalaikumsalaam,


In the hearts of man, there are a thousands of diseases. Anger, lust, resentment, envy, jealousy, hatred, arrogance etc etc.

Just as when your physical body is unwell, you see a physician or a doctor to cure or heal your body.

But when your spiritual self is sick, how do you treat it? By going to a true Sheikh. Only he can teach you and give you the tool/weapon to cut away all the diseases of the heart. We have to realise how imperfect, sinful, spiritually weak we are. To perfect ourself in the path of Tasawwuf, we cant do it alone.

This is the importance of giving Bayah to a Sheikh. Only he can identify the spiritual faults in us, guide us and perfect our hearts.

But in these modern times, there are very few who know the value & importance of giving Bayah to a Shiekh. May Allah guide us all.

As-salaamu 'Alaikum

How does the Shaykh aquire knowledge of what is inside ones heart?

Skilly
23-09-07, 05:24 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

How does the Shaykh aquire knowledge of what is inside ones heart?

Maybe some think's the shaikh is all knowing?
Contact with Allah?
and e.t.c

Oyeah tell brother Abu Haleena the story about the man who use to take people shoe in the mosque..

al-ghazalli
23-09-07, 05:45 PM
If this is the case, I don't get how self-purification and giving bayah are interconnected as you said. Maybe you can explain that part a little more insha'Allaah.

When the golden age of Islam was upon us (and it may Allah hasten its return) there wasn't a need to be a mureed and have a murshid in tasawwuf, since those practised tasawwuf weren't the awam (ordinary people), rather many were talib al-ilm or the Ulema themselves.

When the Ulema saw the diseases spread through the Ummah, knowlodge decreasing and people becoming less weary of Allah they recomended that all those who wished to practise tasawwuf give bayah to a Shaykh. Some such as Imam Suyuti (Rahimullah) stated openly to the public "One who did not have a Shaykh, his Shaykh was Shaytan".

If we look at this statement historically it is correct, since many people who were self taught at that time (and today) decided they rather follow their nafs and created dispensations from themselves leading to talfiq, while others openly made what was haram, halal...and we seek refugee in Allah from such thoughts/actions.


How does the Shaykh aquire knowledge of what is inside ones heart?

I do not believe, I have heard of one Shaykh who claimed this, rather by defination Sufi's are shy and God weary of attracting attention to themselves.

While it is true Allah blesses the Awliya with Kasfh and Ihlam and other metaphysically inspired knowlodge, it is not like a shaykh would go and parade that around to the world let alone his students.

This itself is supported by the Hadith of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) when he stated;

“In the nations long before you there were people who were communicated to although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my community, it is ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattāb!” (Bukhari and Muslim)

Now Imam Nawawi in his Sharh of Sahih Muslim states;

the student of the Sahabi Mālik ibn Anas and erudite scholar, Ibn Wahb states, “Communicated to means mulham (inspired).”

I wont quote the Sharh of Bukhari by Hafidh Ibn Hajar since its too long, if you wish to see the commentary on it let me know and I will take the time to translate it inshallah.

and lastly I quote Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah) who states in his Al-Wasitiya;

“Among the fundamentals of the people of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a is the belief in the miracles of the Awliya’: Allah created supernatural acts through them in all aspects of life, revelations, power, and impressions. This is known of ancient nations in Surat al-Kahf and in other Qur’anic chapters and is known of the early men of this ‘Ummah amongst the Sahabah and the Tabi’un and amongst the rest of the generations of this ‘Ummah. It will be with them to the Day of Resurrection.” (Al-Wasitiya, 33)


And with Allah is all Success.

Abu 'Abdullaah
23-09-07, 09:51 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum
"One who did not have a Shaykh, his Shaykh was Shaytan".I have heard this statement before. What does it really mean? Is it that one must give bayah and make taqleed of a Shaykh. Or does it mean that one simply follows the righteous scholars who are upon the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. I'd like to think it was the latter. Not that it matters much, since we have already established that giving bayah to a Shaykh is not from the deen.
How does the Shaykh aquire knowledge of what is inside ones heart?
I do not believe, I have heard of one Shaykh who claimed thisMy response was to this:
This is the importance of giving Bayah to a Sheikh. Only he can identify the spiritual faults in us, guide us and perfect our hearts.Anyway, I have heard claims of this nature, thought mainly from mureeds. They say so-and-so is a Walee of Allaah and Allaah have given him 'special' ilm etc... which brings me to the final point. Why do people claim that their Shaykh (or his predecessor) is Awliya of Allaah? How do they know?

al-ghazalli
23-09-07, 11:11 PM
I have heard this statement before. What does it really mean? Is it that one must give bayah and make taqleed of a Shaykh. Or does it mean that one simply follows the righteous scholars who are upon the Qur'aan and the Sunnah.

Imam Suyuti (Rahimullah) specifically was refering to a mureed/murshid relationship, but it can also be used for the outward sciences also.


Anyway, I have heard claims of this nature, thought mainly from mureeds. They say so-and-so is a Walee of Allaah and Allaah have given him 'special' ilm etc... which brings me to the final point. Why do people claim that their Shaykh (or his predecessor) is Awliya of Allaah? How do they know?

The Awliya today are far and few between unfortunately. In order for one to be a Wali they must possess physical and spirtual manifestation.

Refer to Ibn Hajar's commentary on Bukhari's hadith; Fath al-Bari

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1705619#post1705619

In the end tasawwuf is not about becoming Awliya nor is learning to attain metaphysical knowlodge. It is about rectifying the soul and cleaning the heart of all diseases.

It is about the hadith if Jibreel (Ihsan means means that you should worship Allah is if you see Him, for even if you do not see Him, He sees you.)


And Allah Knows Best.

Abu 'Abdullaah
23-09-07, 11:50 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

I don't think anyone would disagree about purifying the heart and soul. I am with you 100% on that alhamdulillaah. We should all aspire to reach the level of ihsaan insha'Allaah.

But, this is where I'm a little confused. To me, ihsaan=ihsaan. Why do you say ihsaan=tasawwuf? I thought ihsaan was a 'level' or state that one reaches whereby he has true awareness of Allaah, and that Allaah is always watching him.

So far, you have said that giving bayah and tasawwuf were linked. If tasawwuf=ihsaan, I can't see the link between ihsaan and the murshid/mureed relationship. This leads me to believe that tasawwuf has something more to it, or is something completely different to ihsaan altogether.

HelpingHand
24-09-07, 11:49 AM
Asslamo Allaikum,

In my humble opinion there are two manners/ways of discussing matters i.e.:

1) Discussing to learn
2) Discussing to refute

People in the later case have their mind already made up and there is absolutely no way to change that perception because every quote/verse/hadeeth will be attacked to pick holes an refute.

Simple as that.

Some of the Brothers/Sisters on this thread reflect the mind-set of the sister (also on this thread):

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showpost.php?p=3007&postcount=4

WHEN SOMEONE IS SO DEAD-SET AGAINST SOMETHING; you can NEVER get through.

Skilly
24-09-07, 03:11 PM
Asslamo Allaikum,

In my humble opinion there are two manners/ways of discussing matters i.e.:

1) Discussing to learn
2) Discussing to refute

People in the later case have their mind already made up and there is absolutely no way to change that perception because every quote/verse/hadeeth will be attacked to pick holes an refute.

Simple as that.

Some of the Brothers/Sisters on this thread reflect the mind-set of the sister (also on this thread):

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showpost.php?p=3007&postcount=4

WHEN SOMEONE IS SO DEAD-SET AGAINST SOMETHING; you can NEVER get through.

Assalamu alaikum

And the other way to go pick out words of a girl to use as a tool, which I have no Idea what purpose it serves.

Here is the thread: http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?p=3007#post3007

Where here comment is made. It is no secret.

Secondly we know the difference between the Athari and Ashari/maturidi/Sufi.

Also you are given chance to speak much about sufism on this thread to explain and answer the Question,

before we decide to answer it for you.

So instead of conentrating on the word of a girl. Maybe you should concentrate on the topic.

Skilly
24-09-07, 08:13 PM
As-salaamu 'AlaikumI know about giving bayah to the Ameer but I haven't read or heard about anything other than that. So we can conclude then that giving bayah to a Shaykh is not from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah. Allaahu 'Alam.

If this is the case, I don't get how self-purification and giving bayah are interconnected as you said. Maybe you can explain that part a little more insha'Allaah.



It is got to do with this:

So visualize that reality, projecting it onto the screen of your mind.


Keep your eyes closed.

! ! ! ! ! See the Shaykh/Mentor through the eye of the heart.
Do not look for his face.
Instead, concentrate on his aura, his spiritual form.
When you begin to perceive the Shaykh/Mentor.s presence, give him greetings. It is important to maintain proper manners with the Shaykh/Mentor during muraqabah/Sufi Meditation, behaving exactly as you would if you were in the Shaykh/Mentor.s physical presence.
Sit still, maintaining a position of respect.if it is not too difficult for you, kneel. If this is too difficult, then sit cross-legged. Remain fully conscious, fully awake, and fully aware of your connection with the Shaykh/Mentor
http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/28096/2003413402778978852_rs.jpg ( You gotta see the Image).


After mastering the first level of muraqabah/Sufi Meditation, your next goal is to build a spiritual connection between your heart and the Shaykh/Mentor.s.


To accomplish this, begin as before and visualize yourself in his presence.
After greeting the Shaykh/Mentor, ask permission to connect your heart to his light and his heart to your light.
Imagine a ray of light extending from the Shaykh/Mentor.s heart to your heart and another extending from your heart to the Shaykh/Mentor.s. This creates a powerful spiritual connection.
Once this connection is established, recite your daily dhikr, taking care to maintain the connection between your heart and the Shaykh/Mentor.s throughout (See the Appendix for details of the daily awrad and an explanation of its secrets).

--------------


Trust me it get's wierder and wierder.
It is called corruption of the soul.


Warning to the members of this forum. This is only for educational purpose. I would not try this at home nor anywhere else or ever. I take no liability of this in this world or the hereafter.

al-ghazalli
24-09-07, 10:23 PM
But, this is where I'm a little confused. To me, ihsaan=ihsaan. Why do you say ihsaan=tasawwuf? I thought ihsaan was a 'level' or state that one reaches whereby he has true awareness of Allaah, and that Allaah is always watching him.

Tasawwuf teaches you to conceptualise Ihsan, its just like the brances of fiqh and how they are divided between Usul and Furu.


It is got to do with this:

So visualize that reality, projecting it onto the screen of your mind.

As for what Skilly mentioned that is not tasawwuf, rather Shaykh Buti the great Faqha of Damascus called it shirk and it known as the "Ribita".

There is a great difference between tasawwuf and philosophical tasawwuf which we reject.


And with Allah is all Success.

Skilly
24-09-07, 11:01 PM
As for what Skilly mentioned that is not tasawwuf, rather Shaykh Buti the great Faqha of Damascus called it shirk and it known as the "Ribita".

There is a great difference between tasawwuf and philosophical tasawwuf which we reject.


And with Allah is all Success.

Yeah I should make it clear that is the naqsbandhi Tareeqa (without accounting the posibillty of different group withing it)

So what Tareeqa do you follow?

al-ghazalli
24-09-07, 11:33 PM
So what Tareeqa do you follow?

Well I only gave bayah a few months ago, but I follow the Qadariyyah Tariqah.

Skilly
25-09-07, 12:18 AM
Well I only gave bayah a few months ago, but I follow the Qadariyyah Tariqah.

Salam

Cool. Thank's for that. So what order? I am Jus doing some research.

Their is so many tareeqa's and withing each tareeqah their may be different orders.

al-ghazalli
25-09-07, 12:33 AM
Salam

Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmtullah



Cool. Thank's for that. So what order? I am Jus doing some research.

My Shaykh in tasawwuf is Shaykh Muhammad Bin Yahya An Ninowy in the Qadariyyah order (this is the famous order of most Hanbali Shaykhs).

Just be very aware sidi that not all Sufi's represent tasawwuf and there is much misconception about tasawwuf itself in the west.

Al-Ghawth Abu Madyan (Rahimullah) mentions “The Shuroot (conditions, preconditions, rules etc) of Tasawwuf are eight:

1) Eating only what one earns from the labor of his own hands.

2) Owning only the Halaal.

3) Having a good home environment.

4) Earning only what is best.

5) And Khalwah (seclusion) for the purpose of worshipping.

6) Taking the companionship (suhbah)of one more knowledgable than yourself.

7) والتجنب عن أبنا الدنيا And staying away from the worldly people (lit. the children of the world).

8) And keeping the privacy of the Samaa’ (between the Mureeds: He mentions this elsewhere stating that the doors should be shut while the mureeds are doing samaa’, as it is for its people, and that once the food is served, the doors should be opened to the people).

(Taken from Bidaayat-Al-Murid)

Skilly
25-09-07, 12:50 AM
Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmtullah




My Shaykh in tasawwuf is Shaykh Muhammad Bin Yahya An Ninowy in the Qadariyyah order (this is the famous order of most Hanbali Shaykhs).

Just be very aware sidi that not all Sufi's represent tasawwuf and there is much misconception about tasawwuf itself in the west.

Al-Ghawth Abu Madyan (Rahimullah) mentions “The Shuroot (conditions, preconditions, rules etc) of Tasawwuf are eight:

1) Eating only what one earns from the labor of his own hands.

2) Owning only the Halaal.

3) Having a good home environment.

4) Earning only what is best.

5) And Khalwah (seclusion) for the purpose of worshipping.

6) Taking the companionship (suhbah)of one more knowledgable than yourself.

7) والتجنب عن أبنا الدنيا And staying away from the worldly people (lit. the children of the world).

8) And keeping the privacy of the Samaa’ (between the Mureeds: He mentions this elsewhere stating that the doors should be shut while the mureeds are doing samaa’, as it is for its people, and that once the food is served, the doors should be opened to the people).

(Taken from Bidaayat-Al-Murid)

Thank's for that.

Just to let you know I really do not accept sufism perse?
Or even your tareeqa or other tareeqas.

I accept Ihsan i.e. everthing in the Quran and sunnah (authentic) in the way of the salaf.

It just out of interest & curiosity to know more about all this tareeqa's out there.

Also I think we all accept the point listed somewhat except maybe for point 5 and 8.

It is intersting you believe the Naqsbandhi Tareeqa as mushrik, or more specifically the one I listed.

al-ghazalli
25-09-07, 12:59 AM
Just to let you know I really do not accept sufism perse?
Or even your tareeqa or other tareeqas.

a fair & honest statement, I do not mind if people do not follow it or believe in it perse, what bothers me and Allah forgive us, is when people *Bash* it or the people in it.


Also I think we all accept the point listed somewhat except maybe for point 5 and 8.

lol I know you would probally object to 5 & 8...to be very honest even Imam Ibn Taymiyyah objected to khalwa and May Allah have Mercy Upon Him, and he chastised his Hanabali contemporaries for it but then again he was a brillant Scholar and was entitled to his view.

as for 8 (sama) it does not necessairly mean music since sama differs within every tariqah.


It is intersting you believe the Naqsbandhi Tareeqa as mushrik, or more specifically the one I listed.

no my Shaykhs label the rabita as something which could manifest into shirk so we do not accept it and employ the concept of Sadd al-Dhura (Blocking the means to a possible evil) as a Usuli principle.

Skilly
25-09-07, 01:14 AM
lol I know you would probally object to 5 & 8...to be very honest even Imam Ibn Taymiyyah objected to khalwa and May Allah have Mercy Upon Him, and he chastised his Hanabali contemporaries for it but then again he was a brillant Scholar and was entitled to his view.

Well their are other point I did not add to the list because that will involve elaboration.



no my Shaykhs label the rabita as something which could manifest into shirk so we do not accept it and employ the concept of Sadd al-Dhura (Blocking the means to a possible evil) as a Usuli principle.

Well I don't know about that being shirk or not It is probably is. Their is many forum of shirk.

Despite that the these act's and teaching has no place in Islam. It is Bidah. Misguidance.

al-ghazalli
25-09-07, 01:23 AM
and see disagreement amongst these aspects of Islam are perfectly allowed as long as one keeps his emotions in check and discuss this with the utmost objectivity.

I remember a quote from Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani where he completely rejected some Sufi concepts prevailing at his time even though he himself was a staunch sufi.

Before I decided to give bayah I consulted Shaykh Bin Bayyah and he told me some certain things which I will keep private but it is amazing that we have such giants still alive in the World today.

This is someone who has memorized all four schools of fiqh and has commited the six books of hadith (Sahih Sittah) to memory with their Isnad.

He too also warned me to stay away from philosophical concepts in tasawwuf and stick to the tasawwuf of the Salaf/Khalaf.


And Allah Knows Best & Good Night.

aboosait
25-09-07, 03:28 AM
Walaikum Salaam

When you say sufi, it depends which 'tareeqa' you're talking about. I've seen some extremely disturbing practices by people who profess to be sufi. Even the most 'lax' groups have innovated beliefs and practices.

:salams


A few Sufi orders in history have used drugs to seek a trance-like state, while some practice spinning in circles toward the same end.

The author Idries Shah (1924-1966) popularized a sort of Sufism-without-the-Islam that was embraced by many Western spiritual seekers.

And Sufism did inspire a great body of literature, especially in Persia and Muslim Spain.

The problem with any of these images, as far as understanding Sufism goes, is not so much that they are wrong as that the meaning of "Sufism" is nearly as diverse as the Muslim world itself.

Now a new meaning is being hung on the word, namely that Sufism is the pacifist answer to a fundamentalist, terrorism-endorsing Islam.

Certainly that seems to be the hope of the British leaders who rushed to commend the Sufi Muslim Council.

Source: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98642&highlight=Sufi+Council[/QUOTE]

aboosait
25-09-07, 03:40 AM
[QUOTE]Asslamo Allaikum,

:wswrwb:


Whatever is against the Qur'aan/Sunnah we throw it out, simple as.

So one should be thorough in the knowledge of Qur'an and the Sunnah in order to be able to know what is against it that is to be"thrown out". Is it that that simple?

al faqeer
25-09-07, 05:15 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

Most of my family are 'sufi'. When I was younger, I was made to give the bayah to a pir from Pakistan. Even then, whilst I was engrossed in the beliefs and practices, I was somewhat uncomfortable with some of what I saw and heard. I won't go into the details as it's not really relevant to the discussion.

So you are saying I should sit with a (sufi) Shaykh who will explain tasawwuf to me. I didn't practice or learn about Islaam for many years. Now, alhamdulillaah, I am learning and practising again but since having done so, I have never come across anything from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah about giving bayah to a Shaykh and becoming his mureed. The only ones who say I shoud do that are sufi and fail to bring me evidence from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah.

Like I was saying, and like how you have so far avoided in answering, I don't understand the connection between Zuhd and becoming a mureed. I don't know why some people (sufi) say Zuhd=tasawwuf but others don't. You can explain to me in laymans terms if you like, I won't bite your head off or anything. All I ask is that you have evidence from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah.

Barakallahu Feek.

Yeah Inshallah you will find your way back someday :D , out of the khalaf islam .

Obviously the problem was from you Limitation of Thinking brain wise .

But then again You people take islam literally anything your mind cant understand you reject :D and that is not what Islam is about .

aboosait
25-09-07, 10:35 AM
...........anything your mind cant understand you reject :D and that is not what Islam is about .

We reject that which Allah s.w.t. has asked us to reject namely we reject those who suppress Truth and Guidance revealed in the Qur'an and propagate their own satanic philosophy.

Al-Baqara (The Cow)


إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَى مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَـئِكَ يَلعَنُهُمُ اللّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

(2:159)



2:159 BEHOLD, as for those who suppress aught of the evidence of the truth and of the guidance which We have bestowed from on high, after We have made it clear unto mankind through the divine writ - these it is whom God will reject, and whom all who can judge will reject.

aboosait
25-09-07, 11:30 AM
“In the nations long before you there were people who were communicated to although they were not prophets. If there is anyone of them in my community, it is ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattāb!” (Bukhari and Muslim)


Please provide Book no., Hadith no., chapter etc. of Bukhari and Muslim where that narration can be found.

aboosait
25-09-07, 11:59 AM
......................The summary of what the Sufis say is that the way to the knowledge of Allah is self-purification and renunciation of material attachments, and this is an excellent way…..........

But Islam says the way to the knowledge of Allah is the Qur'an.

A few samples:

Al-Hashr [59:23]


هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلَامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ الْعَزِيزُ الْجَبَّارُ الْمُتَكَبِّرُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

59:23 Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection), the Guardian of Faith, the Preserver of Safety, the Exalted in Might, the Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to Allah. (High is He) above the partners they attribute to Him.
Al-Hashr [59:22]

هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ هُوَ الرَّحْمَنُ الرَّحِيمُ


59:22 Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Al-Imran [3:2]

اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ 3:2 Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. Also read the meaning of the following verses:

Al-Baqara [2:255]

An-Nisa [4:87]

At-Tauba [9:129]

An-Naml [27:26]

Al-Qasas [28:70]

At-Taghabun [64:13]
And the following Surahs:


Al-Ikhlas [112]

Al-Falaq [113]

An-Nas [114:1]

al-ghazalli
25-09-07, 09:51 PM
argh Ya Allah, leave it to Aboosait to polute every thread...if you guys have any more questions, feel free to post and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability...just a little busy with Univ.

aboosait
26-09-07, 01:26 AM
..leave it to Aboosait to polute every thread...

Astagfirullah...Astagfirullah....the verses from the Qur'an quoted by me seem to polute your thread! Fear Allah. This is the month of Qur'an, not the month of the Sufis. At least this month pay a little attention to the Qur'an and renew your eemaan.

Isn't this what your post carried?

[QUOTE]......................The summary of what the Sufis say is that the way to the knowledge of Allah is self-purification and renunciation of material attachments, and this is an excellent way…..........

A Muslim should pronouce in every Raka' of each Salah, his knowledge about Allah that He is


رَبِّ الْعَـلَمِينَ (The Lord of the `Alamin),

الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ Ar-Rahman (the Most Gracious), Ar-Rahim (the Most Merciful)

مَـلِكِ يَوْمِ الدِّينِ (The Owner of the Day of Recompense.).....................

Similarly, Allah said,


[نَبِّىءْ عِبَادِى أَنِّى أَنَا الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ - وَأَنَّ عَذَابِى هُوَ الْعَذَابُ الاٌّلِيمُ ]

(Declare (O Muhammad ) unto My servants, that truly, I am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most Merciful. And that My torment is indeed the most painful torment.) (15:49-50)

Allah said,

[إِنَّ رَبَّكَ سَرِيعُ الْعِقَابِ وَإِنَّهُ لَغَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

(Surely, your Lord is swift in retribution, and certainly He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)(6:165)

Allah mentioned His sovereignty of the Day of Resurrection, but this does not negate His sovereignty over all other things. For Allah mentioned that He is the Lord of existence, including this earthly life and the Hereafter. Allah only mentioned the Day of Recompense here because on that Day, no one except Him will be able to claim ownership of anything whatsoever. On that Day, no one will be allowed to speak without His permission. Similarly, Allah said,


[يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الرُّوحُ وَالْمَلَـئِكَةُ صَفّاً لاَّ يَتَكَلَّمُونَ إِلاَّ مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَقَالَ صَوَاباً ]


(The Day that Ar-Ruh (Jibril (Gabriel) or another angel) and the angels will stand forth in rows, they will not speak except him whom the Most Gracious (Allah) allows, and he will speak what is right.) (78:38),

Know then that,
the way to the knowledge of Allah, excellent way…..........is not Sufism, but it is the Qur'an.

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 08:24 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

It is evident that those who 'pratice' tasawwuf are adamant that it is central to Islaam. My question is if it's so 'important', why didn't the Prophet :saw: tell us about it? The quotes we are given seem to be from the second/third generation of the Salaf and onwards.

There is a hadeeth of the Prophet :saw: which I'm sure you all know about in which he :saw: said,''There is nothing that will bring you closer to Paradise except I have told you about it. And there is nothing that will take you closer to the Hellfire except I have warned you from it.''

al faqeer
01-10-07, 08:30 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

It is evident that those who 'pratice' tasawwuf are adamant that it is central to Islaam. My question is if it's so 'important', why didn't the Prophet :saw: tell us about it? The quotes we are given seem to be from the second/third generation of the Salaf and onwards.

There is a hadeeth of the Prophet :saw: which I'm sure you all know about in which he :saw: said,''There is nothing that will bring you closer to Paradise except I have told you about it. And there is nothing that will take you closer to the Hellfire except I have warned you from it.''

Did the Prophet PBUH have Madhabs ? Books of Hadeeth ? Books on Fiqh :) ?

Gimme a break Abu Helen .

hey and did he PBUH have three TAwheeds Bida ?

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 08:36 AM
I think I'll wait for a response from somebody with more than two braincells.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142958

al faqeer
01-10-07, 08:46 AM
I think I'll wait for a response from somebody with more than two braincells.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142958

Whats Wrong ? cant answer Eh ?

here let me rub the salt in a Bit ! :D

Did the Prophet PBUH have Madhabs ? Books of Hadeeth ? Books on Fiqh ?


did he PBUH have three Tawheeds Bida ?

If you cant answer then you should delete the Hollow statement you made .

You dealing with the best keep that in mind . and i am being humble by the way :) .

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 12:44 PM
*sigh* I was hoping a grown up would have posted something by now. Oh well...

As-salaamu 'Alaikum al faqeer!
MadhabsNo. If by madhabs you mean blindly following one man or one group in everything they he/they says then I'm against that. Having said that, is following a madhab an act of Ibaadah? I don't think so.
BooksNo, but seeking knowledge is obligatory upon us. Reading and writing are methods of learning and are not in themselves acts of Ibaadah.
three TawheedsI think you meant to write the three categories of tawheed. No again. But guess what, this example is very similar to the first two. Why write books to explain certain aspects of Islaam? Why indeed divide sciences into Aqeedah, Fiqh, Ahadeeth etc. Why don't we just rely on the age old tradition of relating everything orally? Hint: They are not considered to be acts of Ibaadah in themselves. They are mereley tools and methods used to help make the deen better and easier to understand and explain.

Now then. I backed up my statement. You be a man and answer me - and I challenge you to deviate from your standard course of action which would be to respond in a similar fashion to your above post and go round in circles adding smiley faces to every post. Can you resisit the urge? We'll see.

If tasawwuf as understood and explained by sufis (not ihsaan or zuhd) is a central part of Islaam, and therefore a means of getting closer the Paradise, why didn't the Prophet :saw: tell us about it?

Bonus question just for you. The way of perforiming dhikr that some sufis practice, I assume they do consider it an act of Ibaadah. If so, please provide from the Qur'aan and Sunnah that the Prophet :saw: even approved of doing dhikr like that. I would post a video as an example of what I mean but some of the sufi moderators keep deleting that video saying it would provoke some ignorant comments (I suspect there's more to it than that but that's another matter). If you go to you tube and search for 'Yaqoubi' you will see the method of dhikr I'm am referring to.

the_middle_road
01-10-07, 03:49 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

It is evident that those who 'pratice' tasawwuf are adamant that it is central to Islaam. My question is if it's so 'important', why didn't the Prophet :saw: tell us about it? The quotes we are given seem to be from the second/third generation of the Salaf and onwards.

There is a hadeeth of the Prophet :saw: which I'm sure you all know about in which he :saw: said,''There is nothing that will bring you closer to Paradise except I have told you about it. And there is nothing that will take you closer to the Hellfire except I have warned you from it.''

Volume 1, Book 3, Number 121:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I have memorized two kinds of knowledge from Allah's Apostle . I have propagated one of them to you and if I propagated the second, then my pharynx (throat) would be cut (i.e. killed).

(Bukhari)

Maybe because of this? I dunno.

al faqeer
01-10-07, 05:49 PM
*sigh* I was hoping a grown up would have posted something by now. Oh well...

As-salaamu 'Alaikum al faqeer!No. If by madhabs you mean blindly following one man or one group in everything they he/they says then I'm against that. Having said that, is following a madhab an act of Ibaadah? I don't think so.No, but seeking knowledge is obligatory upon us. Reading and writing are methods of learning and are not in themselves acts of Ibaadah.I think you meant to write the three categories of tawheed. No again. But guess what, this example is very similar to the first two. Why write books to explain certain aspects of Islaam? Why indeed divide sciences into Aqeedah, Fiqh, Ahadeeth etc. Why don't we just rely on the age old tradition of relating everything orally? Hint: They are not considered to be acts of Ibaadah in themselves. They are mereley tools and methods used to help make the deen better and easier to understand and explain.

Now then. I backed up my statement. You be a man and answer me - and I challenge you to deviate from your standard course of action which would be to respond in a similar fashion to your above post and go round in circles adding smiley faces to every post. Can you resisit the urge? We'll see.

If tasawwuf as understood and explained by sufis (not ihsaan or zuhd) is a central part of Islaam, and therefore a means of getting closer the Paradise, why didn't the Prophet :saw: tell us about it?

Bonus question just for you. The way of perforiming dhikr that some sufis practice, I assume they do consider it an act of Ibaadah. If so, please provide from the Qur'aan and Sunnah that the Prophet :saw: even approved of doing dhikr like that. I would post a video as an example of what I mean but some of the sufi moderators keep deleting that video saying it would provoke some ignorant comments (I suspect there's more to it than that but that's another matter). If you go to you tube and search for 'Yaqoubi' you will see the method of dhikr I'm am referring to.

Who cares what you follow or not , You are a khalafi who follows the last 30 years scholars :) , we follow the Salaf alahdmulilah :) who were all Sufis .

I dont give a flying ever about your hand picked people sufi wannabes , i am humiliating you on what you said about tassawuf that it did nto exist in the time of the prophet and from your own mouth it came the same applies to Tawheed , Fiqh , hadeeth etc .


So as long as i am here you better Keep da trap shut :D .

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 06:06 PM
lol, it not da same becuz tasawuf is ibadah but the other 3 r not considered 2 b ibadah in dem selves. there4 tasawuf is a blameworthy bidah but de other 3 aint. hope i'm makin it eazy 4 u 2 understand lol.

so wots wrong eh? can't answr my q's eh? u da man (not) lol.


i fogot... look up abt givin da salamz. u say u humble me fink you really bumble... lol lol !!

al faqeer
01-10-07, 06:09 PM
lol, it not da same becuz tasawuf is ibadah but the other 3 r not considered 2 b ibadah in dem selves. there4 tasawuf is a blameworthy bidah but de other 3 aint. hope i'm makin it eazy 4 u 2 understand lol.

so wots wrong eh? can't answr my q's eh? u da man (not) lol.


Tassawuf is Ibaada :D ROFL thats a new one .

that means you dont even know what Tassawuf is , I will Spoon feed you later on when i feel like it .

Your Question are bologna the very fact You said tassawuf is Ibaada means you a Kindergarten salafi .

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 06:13 PM
means of getting close 2 allaah = ibadah?? no?

what abt da zikr? got da guts to answer dat one mr bumble? lol

al faqeer
01-10-07, 06:33 PM
means of getting close 2 allaah = ibadah?? no?

what abt da zikr? got da guts to answer dat one mr bumble? lol

Islam is Ibada but how many other things is it ? :D

see how empty the space between ya ears is now ?

:rolleyes:

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 06:42 PM
riiight. tasawuf=ihsaan but now it=islam? make up ur mind mr bumble.

why u shy to answer zikr question eh? lol

the_middle_road
01-10-07, 08:23 PM
[SIZE="1"]
Bonus question just for you. The way of perforiming dhikr that some sufis practice, I assume they do consider it an act of Ibaadah. If so, please provide from the Qur'aan and Sunnah that the Prophet :saw: even approved of doing dhikr like that. I would post a video as an example of what I mean but some of the sufi moderators keep deleting that video saying it would provoke some ignorant comments (I suspect there's more to it than that but that's another matter). If you go to you tube and search for 'Yaqoubi' you will see the method of dhikr I'm am referring to.

If some non-Muslim were to come onto this forum and post a video of some Jihadi type group calling for the death of innocent people or of someone being killed, and then use this as a tool to discredit Islam as a whole, what would you? Would you not be quick to disassociate such acts from Islam and tell him that Islam does not condone such behaviour? Would you not tell him that he should not judge all Muslims by the actions of a small minority who are extremists? I hope that you would. But don't you see that what you are doing is similar to this example above? You are taking the deviant practices of some who call themselves Sufis and using it as a means to discredit Tasawwuf in its totality. The fact is that doing dhikr in such a manner is not a requirement of being a Sufi. If there are some who do things contrary to the Shari'ah then they alone are to be blamed for it. You can't use their actions against all of the other Sufis. But those who are truly on the path of Tasawwuf would not do anything which contradicts the Quran or Sunnah.

Peace.

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 08:38 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

You say that, but the reason I got was quite different. I assume you know the method of dhikr I am referring to and you say it is a deviant practice. However, others have stated something along the lines that the practice is in accordance with Islaam but that laymen or 'ignorant' people were incapable of understanding it and the video was subsequently removed. Twice. My only gripe was that if they really believed it was within Islaam, they should have posted the proofs.

Your analogy of the jihad video is incorrect. A better example would be to Salaah. If someone posted a video about how to pray do we remove it in the fear it may cause negative reactions? Of course not. We tell people this is the deen and here are the proofs. That's my point.
path of Tasawwuf
I'm still trying to find out what this is.

al faqeer
01-10-07, 08:55 PM
riiight. tasawuf=ihsaan but now it=islam? make up ur mind mr bumble.

why u shy to answer zikr question eh? lol

You debate with my rules dude you are on trial not me .


You made a DUH ! comment and you are paying for it , so I proved that your statement is Garbage :) .

You see Tassawuf was always there , the salaf gave the name Tassawuf , like they gave Hadeeth , Tawheed, Fiqh etc.

then You made another mistake proving your bad knowledge on basic islamic teachings , Tassawuf is not Ibaadah , Its many different thngs but related to spiritual aspect of ISlam , something your sect dont and cant reach to start with .

My condolences though .

:D

Abu 'Abdullaah
01-10-07, 09:16 PM
First time I'm hearing this. So enlighten me then, what does 'your' sect say tasawwuf is?

al-ghazalli
01-10-07, 11:03 PM
for arguments sake lets just say if tasawwuf was a bid`ah then we are in agreement that the first three generations of Scholars including the Tabie`n commited bid`ah no?

The likes of Hasan al-Basri and Sufiyan al-Thawri who were the students of the Sahaba themselves propagated such bid`ah?

This would be quiet a bold statement by anyone to utter, or we can conclude each Scholar added this as a field from the hadith of Jibreel to be expanded upon by certain methodology...just like the development of the madhabs, the science of Tasawwuf also developed within the first Three Generations.

Let us also remember these very three generations are praised by our Prophet (Peace and Blessings be Upon Him) as the "best generations".

Its very unfortunate we have layman debating something which the Ulema have learned to agree upon from the earliest generations. Sure there maybe difference within the set methodology but nothing else.


And Allah Is the Best of Guides.

Abu 'Abdullaah
02-10-07, 01:40 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum


Sure there maybe difference within the set methodologyThis is what my questions are based upon. How is 'sufi tasawwuf' different to 'non-sufi' zuhd/ihsaan?

al faqeer
02-10-07, 08:32 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

This is what my questions are based upon. How is 'sufi tasawwuf' different to 'non-sufi' zuhd/ihsaan?

Non Sufis do not know most of Ihsaan and Zuhd , as you can see from your own sect teachings . you have sidelined it and changed it to Tazkiyyah using the Quran word for a scapegoat .


Now Tassawuf is the soul of Islam and the Greatest Sufis was Sayidina Mu7ammad PBUH and the Sahaaba r.a.

the word itself came into existence in the time of Hasan Basri r.a.

These words all add up tassawuf :

Ihsaan

Tawbah

Khawf

Şidq

Şabr

Zuhd

Akhlaaq


Tawakkul

Muĥāsabah

Rajā

Ikhlāş

Wara


Riđā

Shukr

Taqwā

Tawāđu


Dhikr

Faqr

Qurb

Maĥabbah

Yaqīn

Abu 'Abdullaah
02-10-07, 10:03 AM
I find it funny that someone who claims to be a follower of tasawwuf had to resort to a copy/paste just for a list of words. But the clincher for me was:
Tawāđu and AkhlaaqLOL! I find this rich coming from you of all people.

Anyway, from what I understand those words to mean, I agree with most if not all of them. Maybe if we were to look at each one some of the differences might emerge like the dhikr for example. Still no response to my question about the dhikr I see but I'll wait for al-ghazali since I believe he follows that particular 'tareeqa' (BTW - what is that all about?).

I still think there is more to it than you are letting on. From my own research, I have come across various concepts such as obtaining hidden knowledge, aquiring 'super-human' abilities(e.g. being in two places at once), special powers granted by Allaah etc etc. I have even spoken with mureeds who say their shaykh communicates with them through dreams. These are people who call themselves sufi.

al faqeer
02-10-07, 10:11 AM
I find it funny that someone who claims to be a follower of tasawwuf had to resort to a copy/paste just for a list of words. But the clincher for me was: LOL! I find this rich coming from you of all people.

Anyway, from what I understand those words to mean, I agree with most if not all of them. Maybe if we were to look at each one some of the differences might emerge like the dhikr for example. Still no response to my question about the dhikr I see but I'll wait for al-ghazali since I believe he follows that particular 'tareeqa' (BTW - what is that all about?).

I still think there is more to it than you are letting on. From my own research, I have come across various concepts such as obtaining hidden knowledge, aquiring 'super-human' abilities(e.g. being in two places at once), special powers granted by Allaah etc etc. I have even spoken with mureeds who say their shaykh communicates with them through dreams. These are people who call themselves sufi.


You claimed to be a Sufi Yourself , but from what you posted you remind me of America's WMD hoax :D .

al-ghazalli
02-10-07, 01:23 PM
some of the differences might emerge like the dhikr for example. Still no response to my question about the dhikr I see but I'll wait for al-ghazali since I believe he follows that particular 'tareeqa' (BTW - what is that all about?).

honestly I see no problem if someone practises zuhd yet does not hold to a particular tariqah....giants such as Imam Nawawi (Rahimullah) who was a staunch Sufi never followed a particular tariqah himself, and others today such as Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Bin Bayyah (May Allah Protect Them Both) follow tasawwuf yet do not *believe* in following a tariqah.

The only difference in a tariqah is you have a Shaykh who will guide you through all the stages, he gives you your daily awrad and you talk to him about your spirtual problems & or progression. Its almost like an internal doctor....then you also have the brotherhood if your particulary tariqah and some of the mureeds can guide you because of similiar experiences they've had.

The wirds/wazifa of each tariqah differ, but all of them are tried and tested methods by the giants, each wird which you receive comes with an Ijaza which traces it back to the creator of the wird (some going as far back as the Tabie`n). Much more but I have limited time since i'm in Univ and typing rather then listening to my lecture lol...


I have come across various concepts such as obtaining hidden knowledge

I have never heard of any Shaykh state they know the knowlodge of the ghaybh...what they could mean perhaps is ma kaan wa ma yakun.

The rest would be lost in Arabic grammer even if I attempted to explain it, unless you have a good understanding of the ruler pertaining to Arabic grammer and lexicon?

And let us remember that there are some who are alive which can be considered Awliya but they are few and far between. Perhaps Allah has blessed them with karamat who are we to deny them such gifts?

If we examine the statement of the Scholars of hadith they were very much interested in the concept of the Awliya and they gathered not only the hadiths but even non-Prophetic accounts about their states and miraculous gifts, and even dreams. For example, Ibn Abi al-Dunya's al-Awliya and the compilations respectively entitled al-Awliya' and Karaamaat al-Awliya' by the two Hanbalis al-Khallal and al-Lalika'i, as well as Abu Nu`aym's renowned Hilyat al-Awliya.


And Allah Knows Best.

the_middle_road
02-10-07, 02:42 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

You say that, but the reason I got was quite different. I assume you know the method of dhikr I am referring to and you say it is a deviant practice. However, others have stated something along the lines that the practice is in accordance with Islaam but that laymen or 'ignorant' people were incapable of understanding it and the video was subsequently removed. Twice. My only gripe was that if they really believed it was within Islaam, they should have posted the proofs.

Your analogy of the jihad video is incorrect. A better example would be to Salaah. If someone posted a video about how to pray do we remove it in the fear it may cause negative reactions? Of course not. We tell people this is the deen and here are the proofs. That's my point.I'm still trying to find out what this is.

I'm not entirely sure whether we're talking about the same video. PM me with the link.
BTW, what did you make of the hadith I mentioned?

Peace.

Abu 'Abdullaah
02-10-07, 05:21 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum


The wirds/wazifa of each tariqah differ, but all of them are tried and tested methods by the giants, each wird which you receive comes with an Ijaza which traces it back to the creator of the wird (some going as far back as the Tabie`n).What do you mean by tried and tested? How does one 'create' a wird/wazifa?
I have never heard of any Shaykh state they know the knowlodge of the ghaybh...I have heard mureeds say this of their pir/murshid.
what they could mean perhaps is ma kaan wa ma yakun.What is this?
And let us remember that there are some who are alive which can be considered AwliyaConsidered by who?


I'm not entirely sure whether we're talking about the same video.Go to you tube, search for ''Yaqoubi''. There are many on there, though the one I saw featured Tahir al-Qadiri.
what did you make of the hadith I mentioned?You tell me what you make of it since you posted it.

Um Abdullah
02-10-07, 06:49 PM
I remember a quote from Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani where he completely rejected some Sufi concepts prevailing at his time even though he himself was a staunch sufi.

assalamu alaykum akhi

can you give me evidence for Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah being a "staunch" sufi, or that he considered himself from the sufis.

Thanks

Ibn Sina
02-10-07, 07:36 PM
assalamu alaykum akhi

can you give me evidence for Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah being a "staunch" sufi, or that he considered himself from the sufis.

Thanks

wa alaykum as salaam,

he was supposedly a "Shadhili Akbari Sufi":



[...]

7. IBN HAJAR AL-`ASQALANI- a Shadhili Akbari Sufi?:

Ibn Hajar kept all his life in touch with the Shadhili Shaykh Muhammad al-Hanafi and the latter's biographer, al-Battanuni in al-Sirr al-Safi (1:7) describes Ibn Hajar as sitting on his knees before al-Hanafi, taking care not to raise his eyes at him, then kissing his hand before walking backwards to exit the room.

Ibn Hajar in Lisan al-Mizan (5:315) praises the Futuhat al-Makkiyya. He received from Abu Hurayra Ibn al-Dhahabi, from his father Imam al-Dhahabi, the Sufi cloak of Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn `Arabi according to Abu al-Mahasin al-Qaraqji (d. 1205) in Kitab Shawariq al-Anwar al-Jaliyya fi Asanid al-Sadat al-Shadhiliyya ms. Damascus 1522 fol. 59b.

Ibn Hajar wrote a partial commentary of Ibn al-Farid's Sufi poem al-Ta'iyya. He clearly sides with the Sufi consensus over the fact that al-Khidr is alive and well as he narrates his meeting with many of his own teachers in his monograph al-Zahr al-Nadir fi Naba' al-Khadir and in the Isaba. His student al-Sakhawi said in al-Jawahir wal-Durar fi Tarjimat Shaykh al- Islam Ibn Hajar (1:111) that the Dhikr-beads (sibha) never left his hand in post-`Isha gatherings and lessons

[...]




http://www.livingislam.org/o/spsr_e.html

al-ghazalli
03-10-07, 12:02 AM
What do you mean by tried and tested? How does one 'create' a wird/wazifa?

Most wird/wazifa are Prophetic invocations such as the wird of Imam Nawawi (Rahimullah)

There are usually six categories of wird.

1) Composed entirely of Qur’an ayats being strung together in a
deliberate fashion
2) Composed entirely of Qur’anic and Prophetic adhkar and du’as (like
many of Imam al-Haddad’s awrad and the famous wird of Imam Nawawi)
3) Admixtures of the second and “original” supplications, transmitted
from the Spiritual Masters (like many of the Shadhili awrad)
4. Invocations of particular Divine names (such as the various Latifiyyas
in existence or the practice of many tariqas of invoking the name “Allah” in
isolation)
5. Extended supplications of prayers and blessing upon the Messenger of
Allah (such as the famous Dala’il al-Khayrat of Imam Jazuli or the
Yaqutiyya)
6. the regular (e.g. habitual) supplications composed and transmitted by
the fuqaha (of which Imam Shafi’i’s is perhaps the most famous)

Shaykh Amjad Rasheed states in a fatwa;


A. It is obvious to anyone that reads the litanies of our masters, the
Sufis, that many of them have been gathered from the dhikrs and du’as that
have come to us [s: from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him] and
from others which have been arranged by righteous scholars. So whoever reads them is actually reading from the Prophet’s sunna as well as others, so he gets the reward for both of them, and he receives the benefit of acquiring
blessings in everything he does, receiving protection from the Shaytan and
his whisperings, as well as purity of heart and tranquility and more from
what has come about the merits of du’as and dhikr.

There has been scholarly consensus on the permissibility of asking for what
one wants in du’a as long as it is not a sinful request or the cutting off
of relations, as has come in a hadith. And the reason for many people
concerning themselves with reading the du`as of great Sufis is that, as the
questioner said, they [s. the great Sufis] are very knowledgeable in this
and tasawwuf is nothing but the knowledge of sincerity and adab with Allah
in everything. So for these types of people, du’as and praise of Allah,
Majestic is He, is always flowing on their tongues which is not easy for
most people because they are far from knowing Allah, Most High, and He has
said in his honorable book, “Fear Allah and Allah will teach you”.
True, the dhikrs and dua’s which have come from the Prophet are better than
any other that has come to us, as Imam al-Nawawi has mentioned in the
beginning of the Adhkar, and with that, we see that he, may Allah have mercy
on him, has gathered for himself a famous litany which includes invocations
from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and from others.

Amjad Rasheed


Considered by who?

by the Ulema al-Haq.


And Allah Knows Best.

chitownmuslim
03-10-07, 12:14 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

This is what my questions are based upon. How is 'sufi tasawwuf' different to 'non-sufi' zuhd/ihsaan?

no difference at all.. tasawwuf/sufism is the same as ihsaan or tazkiyah.. except that some contemporary reformers and Wahabbi's called it tazkiyah/ihsaan because they claim that the word tasawwuf was not present during the time of the first three generations of Islam, which is a false claim as there is much evidence that this word and the whole science of tasawwuf was present during their time.

Nowadays the majority of those who specialize in tasawwuf follow tariqas or orders which are basically different approaches to achieving ihsaan based on the Quran and Sunnah.. although not all Sufis follow tariqas (as bro Ghazalli mentioned) the majority of them do, because of the fact that it is superior for a layman to follow a guide who will guide him to achieving the level of ihsaan, instead of doin it on their own.. among the famous scholars who were followers of tariqas:

-Imam Suyuti was a Shadhili
-Imam Subki was a Shadhili
-Imam Ibn Abidin was a Naqshabandi
-Imam Ibn Daqiq el-Eid was a Shadhili
-Imam Ramli, Imam Munawi, Imam Bayjuri, were all followers of Sufi tariqas

the word tasawwuf nowadays is commonly used to describe those people who specialize in the discipline or tradition of purifying the self who are traditional Sunnis (Ashari/Maturidi/Athari in aqida, and HAnafi/Shafii/Hanbali/MAliki in fiqh).. while the Wahabbis and reformers call the same exact discipline "tazkiyah"..

Abu 'Abdullaah
03-10-07, 03:16 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

First of all, I object to you using the term 'wahhabi' for reasons I don't wish to go into right now. You say that it is only a matter of 'labels' but I beg to differ. As far as I'm aware, it is an exclusively sufi practice to have a murshid/mureed relationship and where a particular pir or murshid 'prescribes' a particular set of 'wirds' for a particular mureed.

I've attended a gathering where the people were reciting 'ilallaah' repeatedly out loud with a combination of funny head/body movements. Can you tell me if this practice is from the Sunnah?
Also, what about the 'hadrah' of the Qadiri tareeqa... can you tell me where that practice originated also?

Sulaiman Harun
03-10-07, 03:42 AM
:start:

:salams

WAllahi brother Abu Haleena I support you

chitownmuslim
03-10-07, 03:52 AM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

First of all, I object to you using the term 'wahhabi' for reasons I don't wish to go into right now. You say that it is only a matter of 'labels' but I beg to differ. As far as I'm aware, it is an exclusively sufi practice to have a murshid/mureed relationship and where a particular pir or murshid 'prescribes' a particular set of 'wirds' for a particular mureed.

I've attended a gathering where the people were reciting 'ilallaah' repeatedly out loud with a combination of funny head/body movements. Can you tell me if this practice is from the Sunnah?
Also, what about the 'hadrah' of the Qadiri tareeqa... can you tell me where that practice originated also?

Akhi i use the word Wahabbi to describe or name a particular group whom MANY other scholars and alims have called them by this name (among them Imam Alusi, Imam Sana'ani, Imam Ibn Abidin)...

as far as i know tasawwuf as practiced by the Sufis is no different than the tazkiyah/ihsaan which is mentioned in many modern books except in a few aspects such as taking bayah with a murshid/pir.. as far as the chanting of "ilallah" or the dancing of the Qadiris u would have to ask them about that, i have never heard a Sufi claim that their dancing is a Sunnah.. not all Sufis chant or dance as ur trying to suggest

Skilly
03-10-07, 04:00 AM
Akhi i use the word Wahabbi to describe or name a particular group whom MANY other scholars and alims have called them by this name (among them Imam Alusi, Imam Sana'ani, Imam Ibn Abidin)...

as far as i know tasawwuf as practiced by the Sufis is no different than the tazkiyah/ihsaan which is mentioned in many modern books except in a few aspects such as taking bayah with a murshid/pir.. as far as the chanting of "ilallah" or the dancing of the Qadiris u would have to ask them about that, i have never heard a Sufi claim that their dancing is a Sunnah.. not all Sufis chant or dance as ur trying to suggest

Yes they are called by the enemy of AHL AL-SUNNA al Jammah.

I have never met any sufi's thus far without any either of this: shirk & Bidah in belief and pracice.

Secondly I never met any sufi's with the aqeedah of the salaf.

Mainly they are of the greek off-shoot Asharism, Maturidis.

Supposeldy we remove all this shirk and bidah and remove the foreign influence in the aqeedah from sufis
What they would end up being is salafi or the term they use in degeratory as Wahhabi.
Which seem's the enemy's of Allah, i.e. non-muslims has also decided to join the bandwagaon.



Wassalam.

Abu 'Abdullaah
03-10-07, 04:14 AM
Akhi i use the word Wahabbi to describe or name a particular group whom MANY other scholars and alims have called them by this nameWell those 'scholars' would be wrong in doing so...

chitownmuslim
03-10-07, 04:16 AM
Yes they are called by the enemy of AHL AL-SUNNA al Jammah.

Wahhabis are not Ahlus Sunnah as many scholars have said..


I have never met any sufi's thus far without any either of this: shirk & Bidah in belief and pracice.

the majority of the Wahabbis i met were Khariji takfeeri Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology


Secondly I never met any sufi's with the aqeedah of the salaf.

I never met a Wahhabi with the aqeedah of the salaf.. which was tanzeeh and tafweed


Mainly they are of the greek off-shoot Asharism, Maturidis.

the greatest Imams of Ahlus Sunnah were Asharis and Maturidis.. if Asharis and Maturidis are ahlul bidah, then i ask u one question: how do u prove the tawatur of the quran? how can u prove the tawatur of the whole islamic religion if the vast majority of the islamic ummah for the past 1200 years has been ahlul bidah?



Supposeldy we remove all this shirk and bidah and remove the foreign influence in the aqeedah from sufis
What they would end up being is salafi or the term they use in degeratory as Wahhabi.
Which seem's the enemy's of Allah, i.e. non-muslims has also decided to join the bandwagaon.



Wassalam.[/QUOTE]

inshallah the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah will destroy the aqida of tajseem like they have always done (Imam Razi and Imam Sanusi)

Abu 'Abdullaah
03-10-07, 04:21 AM
Oh dear. It didn't take you long did it.

chitownmuslim, would you care to tell us which tareeqa you follow?

Skilly
03-10-07, 04:41 AM
Salaam.

Thank's for coming out of your shell.


Wahhabis are not Ahlus Sunnah as many scholars have said..

You mean what is called salafi?

I extremely doubt that. Baseless accusatuion.



the majority of the Wahabbis i met were Khariji takfeeri Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology
WHat is Kariji? I never heard of that term.

Secondly on takfeeri I doubt that although takfeer is not free from this this deen.

Antromorphist now this is the usual rethoric of ashari's/Maturidis, baseless as it maybe.




I never met a Wahhabi with the aqeedah of the salaf.. which was tanzeeh and tafweed

bit suprising the salafi(what is sometime labelled Wahabi) are the the one outmost in holding the way of the salaf.



the greatest Imams of Ahlus Sunnah were Asharis and Maturidis.. if Asharis and Maturidis are ahlul bidah, then i ask u one question: how do u prove the tawatur of the quran? how can u prove the tawatur of the whole islamic religion if the vast majority of the islamic ummah for the past 1200 years has been ahlul bidah?

I highly doubt it.

First greates of Imam was not either of the two.
Secondly the Majority of the Ummah layman has not a clue of the Ashari/Maturidi belief.

This is true even today.




inshallah the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah will destroy the aqida of tajseem like they have always done (Imam Razi and Imam Sanusi)

Yes the usual rethoric again.
I doubt you can come up with anything.

You can join here http://forums.islamicawakening.com/index.php and see how you ignorance is removed.

Wassalam

Um Abdullah
03-10-07, 10:47 AM
chitownmuslim

Are the following Imams Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology
? (they all have same belief as ours in Allah's attributes and being above the throne above all of the creation) they were Salafi/athari NOT ash'ari Maturidi:

1_ Imam Ibn Jarir at Tabari (d. 310 H.) ash Shafi'i
2_ Imam Ibn Khuzaimah (311 H.) ash Shafi'i
3_ Imam Tirmidhi
4_ Imam Ibn Mandah (al hanbali) + his son + grand son (and if I am remember correctly his greatgrandson) whom all were hufadh, and scholars of hadith would mention their opinions in regards to men, in jarh and ta'dil.
5- Imam al Bukhari
6_ Imam al Khalal al Hanbali
7_ Ibn Battah al Ukburi al Hanbali (400s)
8_ Ishaq bin Rahawaih (d. 238 H.) a great Imam from the Salaf
9_ Ibn Abi Zayd al Qairawani al Maliki (durin 300s)
10_ Ibn Abdul Bar al Maliki (400s)
11_ Ibn Zimanin al Maliki
12_ Uthman as Sabuni Shafi'i
13_ Muhammad Anwar Shah Kashmiri

and many more, it is a long list, insha Allah in near future you will see their names.

so you believe these Imams to be
(Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology)

Um Abdullah
03-10-07, 11:00 AM
wa alaykum as salaam,

he was supposedly a "Shadhili Akbari Sufi":



[...]

7. IBN HAJAR AL-`ASQALANI- a Shadhili Akbari Sufi?:

Ibn Hajar kept all his life in touch with the Shadhili Shaykh Muhammad al-Hanafi and the latter's biographer, al-Battanuni in al-Sirr al-Safi (1:7) describes Ibn Hajar as sitting on his knees before al-Hanafi, taking care not to raise his eyes at him, then kissing his hand before walking backwards to exit the room.

Ibn Hajar in Lisan al-Mizan (5:315) praises the Futuhat al-Makkiyya. He received from Abu Hurayra Ibn al-Dhahabi, from his father Imam al-Dhahabi, the Sufi cloak of Shaykh Muhyi al-Din Ibn `Arabi according to Abu al-Mahasin al-Qaraqji (d. 1205) in Kitab Shawariq al-Anwar al-Jaliyya fi Asanid al-Sadat al-Shadhiliyya ms. Damascus 1522 fol. 59b.

Ibn Hajar wrote a partial commentary of Ibn al-Farid's Sufi poem al-Ta'iyya. He clearly sides with the Sufi consensus over the fact that al-Khidr is alive and well as he narrates his meeting with many of his own teachers in his monograph al-Zahr al-Nadir fi Naba' al-Khadir and in the Isaba. His student al-Sakhawi said in al-Jawahir wal-Durar fi Tarjimat Shaykh al- Islam Ibn Hajar (1:111) that the Dhikr-beads (sibha) never left his hand in post-`Isha gatherings and lessons

[...]




http://www.livingislam.org/o/spsr_e.html


It is written by the untrustworthy Gibril F Haddad, the distorter and slanderer, can't trust what he says nor do i have some of the refrences he mentions to verify what he claims.

I showed some of the false accusations he made against sh. Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab here:
http://umabdullah.wordpress.com/category/replying-to-false-accusations/replying-to-gibril-f-haddad/

He also made more than one false accusation against Dr. Muhsin Khan which I will post in my blog soon insha Allah

the_middle_road
03-10-07, 12:57 PM
You tell me what you make of it since you posted it.

Sufis believe that there is exoteric or outer knowledge - the Shari'ah - and esoteric or inner knowledge - the Tariqah. The one is the kind of knowledge you can learn from books and by studying and the other is the spiritual insight which one gains as he draws closer to Allah (swt). I've heard the hadith being used to say that the Sahabah (ra) were aware of both. The first one that Abu Hurairah (ra) propagated is the exoteric knowledge and the one he did not is the esoteric knowledge. So by this it means that Tasawwuf was prevalent amongst them (ra).

O and we were speaking about different videos. Sorry about that. Well about the dhikr that you are referring to, whether it's allowed or not, I think it would firstly depend on whether or not there is such a thing as a bid'ah hasanah and then secondly whether such a dhikr would fall under that category. But let us just suppose for a moment that it is haraam. My original objection would still stand (that you can't use this to condemn all of Sufism) because not all Sufis practice this dhikr. Or do they?

Peace.

the_middle_road
03-10-07, 01:11 PM
:salams

Can someone please explain to me what the Salafi view is concerning such things as the Hand of Allah and His Istawa' on the throne? If they do not believe that it is literal i.e. Tajsim, and nor do they make ta'wil of it, then how do they understand it?

Peace.

al faqeer
03-10-07, 01:55 PM
As-salaamu 'Alaikum

First of all, I object to you using the term 'wahhabi' for reasons I don't wish to go into right now. You say that it is only a matter of 'labels' but I beg to differ. As far as I'm aware, it is an exclusively sufi practice to have a murshid/mureed relationship and where a particular pir or murshid 'prescribes' a particular set of 'wirds' for a particular mureed.

I've attended a gathering where the people were reciting 'ilallaah' repeatedly out loud with a combination of funny head/body movements. Can you tell me if this practice is from the Sunnah?
Also, what about the 'hadrah' of the Qadiri tareeqa... can you tell me where that practice originated also?

Just because you cant understand it dont make it wrong , Islam is not about individuals understanding it mate ! :)

A murshid is like a doctor who prescribes different medicines for diffirent patients :)

But you are a khalafi no way you can understand suck talk .

My condolences :D .

Abu 'Abdullaah
03-10-07, 03:22 PM
Sufis believe that there is exoteric or outer knowledge - the Shari'ah - and esoteric or inner knowledge - the Tariqah. The one is the kind of knowledge you can learn from books and by studying and the other is the spiritual insight which one gains as he draws closer to Allah (swt). I've heard the hadith being used to say that the Sahabah (ra) were aware of both. The first one that Abu Hurairah (ra) propagated is the exoteric knowledge and the one he did not is the esoteric knowledge. So by this it means that Tasawwuf was prevalent amongst them (ra).There it is again. This reference to 'hidden' knowledge. Can anybody tell me what this is meant to be. A red herring methinks.
I think it would firstly depend on whether or not there is such a thing as a bid'ah hasanahNo, not when it comes to the deen and there are many proofs for this.
Can someone please explain to me what the Salafi view is concerning such things as the Hand of Allah and His Istawa' on the throne? If they do not believe that it is literal i.e. Tajsim, and nor do they make ta'wil of it, then how do they understand it? It's quite simple. We affirm for Allaah, what Allaah has affirmed for himself. We don't go any further. We don't even try to 'understand' it as it is beyond our comprehension.

the_middle_road
03-10-07, 03:40 PM
There it is again. This reference to 'hidden' knowledge. Can anybody tell me what this is meant to be. A red herring methinks.


Well obviously since those who attained to that knowledge didn't disclose it, we are ignorant as to what it is.



No, not when it comes to the deen and there are many proofs for this.


So you don't believe that there is such a thing as a good bid'ah? What is your definition of a bid'ah?



It's quite simple. We affirm for Allaah, what Allaah has affirmed for himself. We don't go any further. We don't even try to 'understand' it as it is beyond our comprehension.

O.K. that's fine but what I don't understand is why the Salafis are opposed to Ash'arism. Is it because they make ta'wil of such things while the Salafis don't? Are Salafis opposed to ta'wil?

Peace.

Um Abdullah
03-10-07, 05:46 PM
a group of Ash'aris do ta'wil while another group do tafwid of meaning
and Salafis confirm the meaning while doing tafwid to kayfiyyah

that is difference
we don't do ta'wil nor tafwid of meaning, we do tafwid of kayfiyyah.

so we say, Allah has a hand but not like creations' hands, it is a hand that is befitting of Allah azza wa jal, how is this hand? we don't know and we are forbidden to ask such a question, for this is kayfiyyah and Allah only knows.

al-ghazalli
04-10-07, 12:01 AM
Sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim the discussion of Aqeedah is fruithless on a form such as this since many are just layman and what you say will just go over their head.

Secondly, I do not believe these types of debates are healthy, they tear apart the community and put up a brother against a brother. Aqeedah for the layma should be a simple reading without going into details of tafwid.

Shaykh Bin Bayyah (May Allah Bless and Preserve Him) has started a group with many prominent Ulema signing on to it called Pledge of Mutual Respect and Cooperation Between Sunni Muslim Scholars, Organizations, and Students of Sacred Knowledge see http://altranslators.com/bg/?p=19 for more information.

I think Shaykh Bin Bayyah is a perfect example, he is a Maliki Scholar has an ijaza both in Ashar and Athari aqeedah. He teaches at Imam Muhammad University and respected widely by Salafi for his knowlodge. Shaykh Bin Bayyah also practises tasawwuf.

Perhaps a greater example and i'm sure sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim would agree is Imam Subki (Rahimullah) and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah).

Reading their works you might take them to be bitter enemies but Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (Rahimullah) writes in Taqabat al-Hanbali (Compedium of Hanabali Scholars). The praise which Imam Subki showered on Imam Ibn Taymiyyah calling him an outstanding Scholar, Shaykhul Islam and endowed with a brilliant mind.

Subhanallah this should be a lesson to all of us, these Scholars disagreed and they were absolute giants, Mujtahids within their respective madhabs, yet they still had love for each other in their hearts.

And With Allah is all Success.

Ibn Sina
04-10-07, 12:08 AM
Bro al-ghazalli, I know this is kinda off topic, but do you follow the Maliki madhab? And I thought Imam adh-Dhahabi was a Shafi :scratch: (referrin to ur sig :o )

al-ghazalli
04-10-07, 12:11 AM
but do you follow the Maliki madhab? And I thought Imam adh-Dhahabi was a Shafi (referrin to ur sig )

Yup I'm studying/following Maliki fiqh, Imam Dhahabi (Rahimullah) was actually a Hanbali and the quotes are basically in defence of the Maliki madhab..at that time some people disliked the madhab and the quotes uttered by Imam Dhahabi and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (May Allah be Pleased with them Both) was in defence of the madhab.

It can be found in Imam Ibn Taymiyyah's book "The Medinian Way"

chitownmuslim
04-10-07, 12:18 AM
Oh dear. It didn't take you long did it.

chitownmuslim, would you care to tell us which tareeqa you follow?

It doesnt matter which tareeqa i follow, i am a Sunni Muslim who follows the Kitab and Sunnah as explained and taught by the great traditional scholars of Islam (raa)..

Abu 'Abdullaah
04-10-07, 01:22 AM
I think it's relevant to the discussion since the thread is about sufism and you are a sufi.

chitownmuslim
04-10-07, 02:02 AM
Salaam.

Thank's for coming out of your shell.



You mean what is called salafi?

I extremely doubt that. Baseless accusatuion.

oh yeah my friend, i suggest u research and read the books of Imam Ibn Abidin, Mufti Ahmad Zayni Dahlan (Mufti of Mecca), and the books of Imam Sana'ani, and see what they thought of the Wahhabi movement, and how it contradicts the way of Ahlus Sunnah...


WHat is Kariji?

im not surprised that u would be asking this question.. akhi i suggest u pay attention to ur ibada during these last days of ramadan, and do not involve urself in these discussions..



Antromorphist now this is the usual rethoric of ashari's/Maturidis, baseless as it maybe.

yes, anthropomorphist would be the perfect word to describe the aqida of the contemporary salafi's who belive that accidents can occur in the essence of Allah, that Allah is limited by space, that he has real hands, eyes, fingers, a face, and shin, that Allah speaks with sounds and letters, that he physically descends from over the throne to the lowest heaven every night, and that he literally sits on the kursi.. now u tell me, with all these beliefs, how does the word 'tanzeeh' even fit into the Salafi creed?



bit suprising the salafi(what is sometime labelled Wahabi) are the the one outmost in holding the way of the salaf.

that is very false for various reasons:
-i DARE you to name one person from the salaf who said that Allah is literally sitting or above the throne, or that Allah literally has hands and a face, or that Allah literally descends from above the throne down to the lowest heaven, or that Allah is limited by aboveness as Salafis claim.
-jus because they call themselves "Salafis" does not necessarily mean that they are really followers of the way of the salaf.. since the very dawn of Islam every Islamic group has claimed to follow the quran, sunna, and the Salaf including Mutazila and Shia.. and the so called "salafis" are no different..
-The way of the salaf is the same exact way of Ahlus Sunnah, which is the way of the 4 imams of fiqh (Malik, Abu Hanifa, Ahmad, Shafi'i) and the way of the 3 imams of aqida (Ash'ari, Maturidi, Tahawi).. the madhab of the salaf in aqida was tafweed al-ma'ana and the tanzeeh of Allah (Swt) from being in any way similar to his creation.. and Salafi aqida contradicts all of this ..



I highly doubt it.

LoooL.. u doubt that the greatest Imams of Ahlus Sunnah were Ash'aris and Maturidis?

Ashari/Maturidi Imams:
-Imam Ghazali
-Imam Baqillani
-Imam Hafiz Ibn Asakir
-Imam Bayhaqi
-Imam Qushayri
-Imam Al-Haramain Juwaini
-Imam Ibn Furak
-Imam Suyuti
-Imam Nawawi
-Imam Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani
-Imam Ibn Hajar Haytami
-Imam Subki
-Imam Sultan Al-Ulema Izz bin Abdus Salam
-Imam Sanusi
-Imam Fakhr Razi
-Imam Sha'arawi
-Imam Kawthari

not to mention the vast majority of the faqihs of the Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafi'i madhabs, and the great Ahlus Sunnah scholars of Deoband and the subcontinent who follow the way of Imam Maturidi in aqida...



First greates of Imam was not either of the two.
Secondly the Majority of the Ummah layman has not a clue of the Ashari/Maturidi belief.

This is true even today.

this is wrong, the majority of Muslim laymen believe in the tanzeeh of Allah (swt) and that he is not like any of his creation.. unlike Salafis who test laymen in their aqida and tell them that Allah is sitting above his throne and that he is bound by space..




Yes the usual rethoric again.
I doubt you can come up with anything.

You can join here http://forums.islamicawakening.com/index.php and see how you ignorance is removed.

Wassalam

LoL.. ur goin to "remove my ignorance", then go ahead and do it here..

chitownmuslim
04-10-07, 02:04 AM
I think it's relevant to the discussion since the thread is about sufism and you are a sufi.

Im a Sunni Muslim who believes that tazkiyah is obligatory upon all Muslims.. if u want to call me a Sufi, then go ahead.. to make things easy for u, I follow the tariqa of Imam Abul Hasan Shadhili (raa)..

Abu 'Abdullaah
04-10-07, 02:29 AM
I see. So do you take part in a 'hadrah'? How does it go...?

aboosait
04-10-07, 03:45 AM
akhi i suggest u pay attention to ur ibada during these last days of ramadan,

jazakallahu Khair. Hope you will also follow this adavise.

[QUOTE]that he physically descends from over the throne to the lowest heaven every night, and that he literally sits on the kursi.. now u tell me, with all these beliefs, how does the word 'tanzeeh' even fit into the Salafi creed?

Imaam at-Tirmidhee (d. 279H) said:

"It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about such ahaadeeth, that there is no tashbeeh (resemblance) to the Attributes of Allaah, and our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - descends to the lowest heaven every night. So they say:
"Affirm these narrations, have eemaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth:
"Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh!
However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-Yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say:
Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah." Sunan at-Tirmidhee (3/24)


-i DARE you to name one person from the salaf who said that Allah is literally sitting or above the throne, or that Allah literally has hands and a face, or that Allah literally descends from above the throne down to the lowest heaven, or that Allah is limited by aboveness as Salafis claim.

Al-Haafidh Taqi ud-Deen Abu Muhammad Abdul-Ghaniyy al-Maqdisee (d. 600H) - may Allaah have mercy upon him - said:
"And know - may Allaah have mercy upon you - that Islaam and its people are attacked and destroyed by three groupings:
1) A group who reject the hadeeth pertaining to the Attributes of Allaah and who reject their narrators. They are more harmful to Islaam and its adherents than the Disbelievers
2) A group who speak with the authenticity of these hadeeth and accept them, but they perform Ta'weel (figurative interpolation) of them. They are mightier in their harm than the first group
3) And the third group, those who avoid the above two sayings, and begin - as they claim - to purify Allaah from all imperfections (tanzeeh) - but in fact they are liars, and this leads them to the very same above two sayings. So they are more harmful than the first two groups." Aqeedatul-Haafidh Abdul-Ghaniyy (p.113) ]

chitownmuslim
04-10-07, 04:29 AM
chitownmuslim

Are the following Imams Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology
? (they all have same belief as ours in Allah's attributes and being above the throne above all of the creation) they were Salafi/athari NOT ash'ari Maturidi:

1_ Imam Ibn Jarir at Tabari (d. 310 H.) ash Shafi'i
2_ Imam Ibn Khuzaimah (311 H.) ash Shafi'i
3_ Imam Tirmidhi
4_ Imam Ibn Mandah (al hanbali) + his son + grand son (and if I am remember correctly his greatgrandson) whom all were hufadh, and scholars of hadith would mention their opinions in regards to men, in jarh and ta'dil.
5- Imam al Bukhari
6_ Imam al Khalal al Hanbali
7_ Ibn Battah al Ukburi al Hanbali (400s)
8_ Ishaq bin Rahawaih (d. 238 H.) a great Imam from the Salaf
9_ Ibn Abi Zayd al Qairawani al Maliki (durin 300s)
10_ Ibn Abdul Bar al Maliki (400s)
11_ Ibn Zimanin al Maliki
12_ Uthman as Sabuni Shafi'i
13_ Muhammad Anwar Shah Kashmiri

and many more, it is a long list, insha Allah in near future you will see their names.

so you believe these Imams to be
(Mujassim anthropomorphist in their creed/methodology)

First of All ukhti Imam Ibn Jarir Tabari was not "Salafi" in aqeedah..

Imam Al-Bukhari was not Salafi in aqida..

otherwise, some of the names u mentioned in this list were mostly people who agreed with the mujassima on some issues.. but i would have to research them first before making any claims..

Skilly
04-10-07, 05:09 AM
oh yeah my friend, i suggest u research and read the books of Imam Ibn Abidin, Mufti Ahmad Zayni Dahlan (Mufti of Mecca), and the books of Imam Sana'ani, and see what they thought of the Wahhabi movement, and how it contradicts the way of Ahlus Sunnah...

Mate, I have researched such movement and contrary to the falsehood propratated I found it be work of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab to be a masterpiece. The methodology is clear and nothing but Quran and Sunnah.

Secondly any body objectively researching would noticed the lies and misconception that are constantly feeded to people by non-other than people like you. This made me take up a position to defend the truth, and find such people like you to be liars, misguided or maybe it is out of Ignorance.
Whatever the reason you may have it is surely will not work with me.

He's work are readily available even today. Anyone seeking the truth can throughly research on it, which I advise anyone here to do.
Got to the source.

I am not so receptive to falshood and I hate those who persist after shown the truth of the matter.

It is not suprising to find the upholder of greek and sufis to take such stance.



im not surprised that u would be asking this question.. akhi i suggest u pay attention to ur ibada during these last days of ramadan, and do not involve urself in these discussions..

Since you called me and other's here in the forum anthromorpist, Kwarjites, takfeeri I think we should carry on with this discussion.

I would like the members here to read on. I don't care if they are layman or not but sooner or later they woud come across it and I rather show the clear from misguidance.




yes, anthropomorphist would be the perfect word to describe the aqida of the contemporary salafi's who belive that accidents can occur in the essence of Allah, that Allah is limited by space, that he has real hands, eyes, fingers, a face, and shin, that Allah speaks with sounds and letters, that he physically descends from over the throne to the lowest heaven every night, and that he literally sits on the kursi.. now u tell me, with all these beliefs, how does the word 'tanzeeh' even fit into the Salafi creed?

Antromophist would be a great way to describe the aqeedah of the the Prophet and the companion.
Secondly do you believe Allah(swt) is unlimited?
In what way's? (be careful answering).

and yes I believe Allah(swt) created Adam with his two hand. If you got a problem with that than you got a problem with Allah(swt) and his Messeneger.

What I would descibe you aqeedah to be is an offshoot of greek kalam.
Which it would be stupendous to deny since history is attested to it.




that is very false for various reasons:
-i DARE you to name one person from the salaf who said that Allah is literally sitting or above the throne, or that Allah literally has hands and a face, or that Allah literally descends from above the throne down to the lowest heaven, or that Allah is limited by aboveness as Salafis claim.
-jus because they call themselves "Salafis" does not necessarily mean that they are really followers of the way of the salaf.. since the very dawn of Islam every Islamic group has claimed to follow the quran, sunna, and the Salaf including Mutazila and Shia.. and the so called "salafis" are no different..
-The way of the salaf is the same exact way of Ahlus Sunnah, which is the way of the 4 imams of fiqh (Malik, Abu Hanifa, Ahmad, Shafi'i) and the way of the 3 imams of aqida (Ash'ari, Maturidi, Tahawi).. the madhab of the salaf in aqida was tafweed al-ma'ana and the tanzeeh of Allah (Swt) from being in any way similar to his creation.. and Salafi aqida contradicts all of this ..

Mate the Four Imam are not greeks. So I highly doubt they are Asharis/maturidis.

Here is link Sunni response to Heretics (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=1039)




LoooL.. u doubt that the greatest Imams of Ahlus Sunnah were Ash'aris and Maturidis?

Ashari/Maturidi Imams:
-Imam Ghazali
-Imam Baqillani
-Imam Hafiz Ibn Asakir
-Imam Bayhaqi
-Imam Qushayri
-Imam Al-Haramain Juwaini
-Imam Ibn Furak
-Imam Suyuti
-Imam Nawawi
-Imam Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani
-Imam Ibn Hajar Haytami
-Imam Subki
-Imam Sultan Al-Ulema Izz bin Abdus Salam
-Imam Sanusi
-Imam Fakhr Razi
-Imam Sha'arawi
-Imam Kawthari


We all know what stages Imam Ghazali went through different stages.

The life of al-Ghazzaali needs to be discussed at length because he went through a number of stages. He indulged in philosophy, then he recanted and rejected that. After that he indulged in what is known as ‘ilm al-kalaam (Islamic philosophy) and gained a sound grasp of its basic principles; then he rejected that after it became clear to him that it was corrupt and filled with contradictions. He was focusing on ‘ilm al-kalaam during the period when he refuted philosophy, and at that time he was given the title of Hujjat al-Islam, after he had refuted the arguments of the philosophers. Then he recanted ‘ilm al-kalaam and turned away from it. He followed the path of the Baatiniyyah (esotericists) and learned their knowledge, but then he rejected that and showed the beliefs of the Baatiniyyah to be false, and exposed the manner in which they tamper with the texts and rulings. Then he followed the path of Sufism. These are the four stages that al-Ghazzaali went through. Shaykh Abu ‘Umar ibn al-Salaah (may Allaah have mercy on him) spoke well of him when he said: “A lot has been said about Abu Haamid and a lot has been narrated from him. As for these books – meaning al-Ghazzaali’s books which contradict the truth – no attention should be paid to them. As for the man himself, we should keep quiet about him, and refer his case to Allaah.” See Abu Haamid al-Ghazzaali wa’l-Tasawwuf by ‘Abd al-Rahmaan Dimashqiyyah.



not to mention the vast majority of the faqihs of the Hanafi, Maliki, and Shafi'i madhabs, and the great Ahlus Sunnah scholars of Deoband and the subcontinent who follow the way of Imam Maturidi in aqida...

Vast Majority of faqih was greek?
Save yourself the trouble. I don't care if some had greek tendencies...or make mistakes.
It does not make falsehood truth regardless of how many.




his is wrong, the majority of Muslim laymen believe in the tanzeeh of Allah (swt) and that he is not like any of his creation.. unlike Salafis who test laymen in their aqida and tell them that Allah is sitting above his throne and that he is bound by space..

Vast majority of layman believe Allah(swt) is above, as Allah(swt) said.
They don't believe Allah(swt) is nowhere.

Hello which idiots here believe ALlah(swt) is nowhere and deny Allah (swt) rising over his throne.

Secondly since you have not paid attention to sis Ummabdullah word you would have noticed that the salaf believe AllahS(wt) exist describe hiw with what he described himself with and and believe their is not like his cretaion.

You stupidity would not work.



LoL.. ur goin to "remove my ignorance", then go ahead and do it here..

Well it is hard to educate an ignorant. I would give it a try.

al-ghazalli
04-10-07, 05:24 AM
We all know what stages Imam Ghazali went through different stages.

Imam Ghazalli (Rahimullah) never recanted from ilm al-kalam, his book which is often quoted by the Salafi Ulema censors those who wish to learn that science who are layman. Secondly he did not recant on his tasawwuf since his Ihya Uloom al-Din was his last and most famous work along with his famous book on Usul al-Mustafa.

By the way Sidi making of ta`wil of Allah's attributes is not denying them for example some hadiths talk about Allah's laughter.

Imam Al-Bayhaqi stated in his Al-Asma’ wal-Sifat (p. 298):
روى الفربري ، عن محمد بن إسماعيل البخاري رحمه الله تعالى أنه قال : معنى الضحك فيه الرحمة

“And Al-Farbari (Imam Bukhari’s scribe) reported that Muhammad bin Isma’il Al-Bukhari (may Allah have mercy on him!) said: the meaning of laughter in it - i.e. in the context of this hadith - "is mercy.”

So we know even the earliest generations made ta`wil.


But honestly folks lets not bicker over this, we are layman....we should keep silent on these issues and instead work on our dunya for a better Akhira. :)

Um Abdullah
04-10-07, 05:50 AM
Sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim the discussion of Aqeedah is fruithless on a form such as this since many are just layman and what you say will just go over their head.

akhi I agree with you 100%
that is what I've told some brothers before in this forum, and ironically they have been mostly ash'ari or maturidi, I mean the ones who start it.
I haven't been reading every thread in this forum, but the ones I have seen so far, only one was started by a salafi, the rest were by Ash'aris.
and Chitownmuslim was attacking us labeling us "mujasimah" and saying false things about our beliefs becuase of his misunderstandings of it.
you don't see me going around calling ash'aris "jahmis" and "mu'tilah", even though I consider their tafwid of meaning as "ta'til".
So I agree with you on not discussing such topics in these forums, but I can't stay silent if someone attacked my beleifs saying false stuff and labeling us as "anthromorphists"


By the way Sidi making of ta`wil of Allah's attributes is not denying them for example some hadiths talk about Allah's laughter.

Imam Al-Bayhaqi stated in his Al-Asma’ wal-Sifat (p. 298):
روى الفربري ، عن محمد بن إسماعيل البخاري رحمه الله تعالى أنه قال : معنى الضحك فيه الرحمة

“And Al-Farbari (Imam Bukhari’s scribe) reported that Muhammad bin Isma’il Al-Bukhari (may Allah have mercy on him!) said: the meaning of laughter in it - i.e. in the context of this hadith - "is mercy.”


check here akhi, just for your info:
http://umabdullah.wordpress.com/2007/08/14/the-claim-that-al-bukhari-made-taweel-of-the-attribute-of-laughter-to-mean-mercy/



First of All ukhti Imam Ibn Jarir Tabari was not "Salafi" in aqeedah..

oh yes he was, he confirmed the dhahir meaning of sifat, and Allah being above the throne above the heavens, it is all clear in his tafsir (check his tafsir of ayah 40:37 , also in other ayat, but I have to go check which ones, I have them compiled in a file) and in his book "at Tabsir of Ma'alim ad Deen".



Imam Al-Bukhari was not Salafi in aqida..


go read his book "khalq af'al al ibad"

Um Abdullah
04-10-07, 05:56 AM
Yup I'm studying/following Maliki fiqh
check ur pm please

al-ghazalli
04-10-07, 03:20 PM
check ur pm please

done..

RashidD
05-10-07, 03:56 AM
Good to see you three getting along - even if we don't all agree let's keep the peace and civil discussion InshaALLAH *smiles*

RashidD
05-10-07, 04:04 AM
Sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim the discussion of Aqeedah is fruithless on a form such as this since many are just layman and what you say will just go over their head.

Secondly, I do not believe these types of debates are healthy, they tear apart the community and put up a brother against a brother. Aqeedah for the layma should be a simple reading without going into details of tafwid.

Shaykh Bin Bayyah (May Allah Bless and Preserve Him) has started a group with many prominent Ulema signing on to it called Pledge of Mutual Respect and Cooperation Between Sunni Muslim Scholars, Organizations, and Students of Sacred Knowledge see http://altranslators.com/bg/?p=19 for more information.

I think Shaykh Bin Bayyah is a perfect example, he is a Maliki Scholar has an ijaza both in Ashar and Athari aqeedah. He teaches at Imam Muhammad University and respected widely by Salafi for his knowlodge. Shaykh Bin Bayyah also practises tasawwuf.

Perhaps a greater example and i'm sure sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim would agree is Imam Subki (Rahimullah) and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah).

Reading their works you might take them to be bitter enemies but Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (Rahimullah) writes in Taqabat al-Hanbali (Compedium of Hanabali Scholars). The praise which Imam Subki showered on Imam Ibn Taymiyyah calling him an outstanding Scholar, Shaykhul Islam and endowed with a brilliant mind.

Subhanallah this should be a lesson to all of us, these Scholars disagreed and they were absolute giants, Mujtahids within their respective madhabs, yet they still had love for each other in their hearts.

And With Allah is all Success.

I agree, we should accept the differences of opinion and maintain adaab. MashaALLAH :jkk: brother.

chitownmuslim
06-10-07, 05:49 AM
Good to see you three getting along - even if we don't all agree let's keep the peace and civil discussion InshaALLAH *smiles*

Salam Sidi Rashid, Im talkin to a knowledgable brother in Shafi'i fiqh very soon inshallah, so inshallah ill pm as soon as i do bro.. :up:

jazak allahu khayran..

chitownmuslim
06-10-07, 05:57 AM
Sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim the discussion of Aqeedah is fruithless on a form such as this since many are just layman and what you say will just go over their head.

Secondly, I do not believe these types of debates are healthy, they tear apart the community and put up a brother against a brother. Aqeedah for the layma should be a simple reading without going into details of tafwid.

Shaykh Bin Bayyah (May Allah Bless and Preserve Him) has started a group with many prominent Ulema signing on to it called Pledge of Mutual Respect and Cooperation Between Sunni Muslim Scholars, Organizations, and Students of Sacred Knowledge see http://altranslators.com/bg/?p=19 for more information.

I think Shaykh Bin Bayyah is a perfect example, he is a Maliki Scholar has an ijaza both in Ashar and Athari aqeedah. He teaches at Imam Muhammad University and respected widely by Salafi for his knowlodge. Shaykh Bin Bayyah also practises tasawwuf.

Perhaps a greater example and i'm sure sister Umm_Abdullah and Sidi Chitownmuslim would agree is Imam Subki (Rahimullah) and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimullah).

Reading their works you might take them to be bitter enemies but Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali (Rahimullah) writes in Taqabat al-Hanbali (Compedium of Hanabali Scholars). The praise which Imam Subki showered on Imam Ibn Taymiyyah calling him an outstanding Scholar, Shaykhul Islam and endowed with a brilliant mind.

Subhanallah this should be a lesson to all of us, these Scholars disagreed and they were absolute giants, Mujtahids within their respective madhabs, yet they still had love for each other in their hearts.

And With Allah is all Success.

Jazak Allahu Khayr Sidi Ghazalli.. may Allah (swt) give u tawfeek akhi... :up:

Shaykh Bin Bayyah is a great example of a balanced and unbiased scholar, Hamdulilah ive had the chance to listen to recordings of some of his lectures and durus... and i definitely agree with u on the point u brought up about Imam Subki (ra) and Ibn Taymiya (ra), and its worth noting that Ibn Taymiya worked very hard to unite the Muslims of Syria when it was being invaded; he brought together Hanbali's, Asharis, Sufis, and other Muslim groups under one banner, this should be an example for those who claim to follow him.. wallahul musta'an

aboosait
07-10-07, 12:56 AM
...............he brought together Hanbali's, Asharis, Sufis, and other Muslim groups under one banner, this should be an example for those who claim to follow him.. wallahul musta'an

Which was that one banner?

Wasnt that the banner of Qur'an and the Sunnah? And this is the only banner - free from all sorts of bid'ah - under which is real shelter for those who wish to be together.