View Full Version : how a non muslim bank works and why muslims should not put their money there.
:start: i just wanted to help muslims understand how non islamic banking works :
According to Britannica.com, a bank is:
an institution that deals in money and its substitutes and provides other financial services. Banks accept deposits and make loans and derive a profit from the difference in the interest rates paid and charged, respectively.
Banks are critical to our economy. The primary function of banks is to put their account holders' money to use by lending it out to others who can then use it to buy homes, businesses, send kids to college...
When you deposit your money in the bank, your money goes into a big pool of money along with everyone else's, and your account is credited with the amount of your deposit. When you write checks or make withdrawals, that amount is deducted from your account balance. Interest you earn on your balance is also added to your account.
Banks create money in the economy by making loans. The amount of money that banks can lend is directly affected by the reserve requirement set by the Federal Reserve. The reserve requirement is currently 3 percent to 10 percent of a bank's total deposits. This amount can be held either in cash on hand or in the bank's reserve account with the Fed. To see how this affects the economy, think about it like this. When a bank gets a deposit of $100, assuming a reserve requirement of 10 percent, the bank can then lend out $90. That $90 goes back into the economy, purchasing goods or services, and usually ends up deposited in another bank. That bank can then lend out $81 of that $90 deposit, and that $81 goes into the economy to purchase goods or services and ultimately is deposited into another bank that proceeds to lend out a percentage of it.
In this way, money grows and flows throughout the community in a much greater amount than physically exists. That $100 makes a much larger ripple in the economy than you may realize! ( you can read more herehttp://money.howstuffworks.com/bank1.htm )
Now what does our deen al Islam, say about dealing in riba ?
“O you who believe! Be afraid of Allaah and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribaa (from now onward) if you are (really) believers!"
"And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger!"
" but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums) "
Surah al-Baqarah 278-279
“Those who eat Ribaa will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaytaan (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: “Trading is only like Riba,” whereas Allaah has permitted trading and forbidden Riba. So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Riba, shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allaah (to judge); but whoever returns (to Riba), such are the dwellers of the Fire — they will abide therein”
[al-Baqarah 2:275]
the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) "cursed the one who consumes riba and the one who pays it." Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5962.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“A dirham which a man consumes as riba knowingly is worse before Allaah than thirty-six acts of zina.”
Narrated by Ahmad and al-Tabaraani; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 3375.
And the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
“There are seventy-two types of riba, the least of which is like a man committing incest with his mother.”
Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 3537.
Narrated Samura bin Jundub:
Allah’s Apostle very often used to ask his companions, “Did anyone of you see a dream?” So dreams would be narrated to him by those whom Allah wished to tell. One morning the Prophet said, “Last night two persons came to me (in a dream) and woke me up and said to me, ‘Proceed!’ I set out with them and we came across a man Lying down, and behold, another man was standing over his head, holding a big rock. Behold, he was throwing the rock at the man’s head, injuring it. The rock rolled away and the thrower followed it and took it back. By the time he reached the man, his head returned to the normal state. The thrower then did the same as he had done before.
I said to my two companions, ‘Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?’ They said, ‘Proceed!’ So we proceeded and came to a man Lying flat on his back and another man standing over his head with an iron hook, and behold, he would put the hook in one side of the man’s mouth and tear off that side of his face to the back (of the neck) and similarly tear his nose from front to back and his eye from front to back. Then he turned to the other side of the man’s face and did just as he had done with the other side. He hardly completed this side when the other side returned to its normal state. Then he returned to it to repeat what he had done before.
I said to my two companions, ‘Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed!’ So we proceeded and came across something like a Tannur (a kind of baking oven, a pit usually clay-lined for baking bread).” I think the Prophet said, “In that oven there was much noise and voices.” The Prophet added, “We looked into it and found naked men and women, and behold, a flame of fire was reaching to them from underneath, and when it reached them, they cried loudly.
I asked them, ‘Who are these?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed!’ And so we proceeded and came across a river.” I think he said, “…. red like blood.” The Prophet added, “And behold, in the river there was a man swimming, and on the bank there was a man who had collected many stones. Behold. while the other man was swimming, he went near him. The former opened his mouth and the latter (on the bank) threw a stone into his mouth whereupon he went swimming again. He returned and every time the performance was repeated.
I asked my two companions, ‘Who are these (two) persons?’ They replied, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ And we proceeded till we came to a man with a repulsive appearance, the most repulsive appearance, you ever saw a man having! Beside him there was a fire and he was kindling it and running around it.
I asked my companions, ‘Who is this (man)?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ So we proceeded till we reached a garden of deep green dense vegetation, having all sorts of spring colors. In the midst of the garden there was a very tall man and I could hardly see his head because of his great height, and around him there were children in such a large number as I have never seen.
I said to my companions, ‘Who is this?’ They replied, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ So we proceeded till we came to a majestic huge garden, greater and better than I have ever seen! My two companions said to me, ‘Go up and I went up’ The Prophet added, “So we ascended till we reached a city built of gold and silver bricks and we went to its gate and asked (the gatekeeper) to open the gate, and it was opened and we entered the city and found in it, men with one side of their bodies as handsome as the handsomest person you have ever seen, and the other side as ugly as the ugliest person you have ever seen. My two companions ordered those men to throw themselves into the river. Behold, there was a river flowing across (the city), and its water was like milk in whiteness.
Those men went and threw themselves in it and then returned to us after the ugliness (of their bodies) had disappeared and they became in the best shape.” The Prophet further added, “My two companions (angels) said to me, ‘This place is the Eden Paradise, and that is your place.’ I raised up my sight, and behold, there I saw a palace like a white cloud! My two companions said to me, ‘That (palace) is your place.’ I said to them, ‘May Allah bless you both! Let me enter it.’ They replied, ‘As for now, you will not enter it, but you shall enter it (one day) I said to them, ‘I have seen many wonders tonight. What does all that mean which I have seen?’
They replied, ‘We will inform you: As for the first man you came upon whose head was being injured with the rock, he is the symbol of the one who studies the Quran and then neither recites it nor acts on its orders, and sleeps, neglecting the enjoined prayers. As for the man you came upon whose sides of mouth, nostrils and eyes were torn off from front to back, he is the symbol of the man who goes out of his house in the morning and tells so many lies that it spreads all over the world.
And those naked men and women whom you saw in a construction resembling an oven, they are the adulterers and the adulteresses, and the man whom you saw swimming in the river and given a stone to swallow, is the eater of usury (Riba) and the bad looking man whom you saw near the fire kindling it and going round it, is Malik, the gatekeeper of Hell and the tall man whom you saw in the garden, is Abraham and the children around him are those children who die with Al-Fitra (the Islamic Faith).”
The narrator added: Some Muslims asked the Prophet, “O Allah’s Apostle! What about the children of pagans?” The Prophet replied, “And also the children of pagans.” The Prophet added, “My two companions added, ‘The men you saw half handsome and half ugly were those persons who had mixed an act that was good with another that was bad, but Allah forgave them.’”
[Bukhari. Volume 9, Book 87, Number 171]
clearly it is forbidden for muslims to deal in riba, now what many of you may not be aware of is that any money you deposit into a bank even if you do not accept the interest on it, you are assisting in strengthening the economy of the country you deposit your money with. Your money is used to lend to others for whatever they like, yes your money is paying for that £30,000 wedding for joe bloggs, your money is paying for thus assisting them in dealing in riba, and their opression of the muslims in other lands etc.
when you put your money into a bank, even if you do not collect the riba on it your money is lent to other people who the bank then charges interest.
yes mr.jones could be driving his new ferrarri all bought and paid for with your money, he will spend the next 10 years repaying the bank what he borrowed from your wealth, and the bank will make a good profit in riba off of it and you assisted them in that by placing your money with the bank...
banking is critical to the economy of a country. If every muslim with drew all of their money and closed their accounts with these banks then the economy would virtually collapse.
There are those today who claim that they have no option but to bank with such places because they have such large amounts of wealth that they need to keep safe.
One option for those with huge amounts of wealth to keep safe, is the lesser evil of a safety deposit box. you place your cash in the box, and no one can touch it, or use it or lend it to anyone else to make riba off it , because it will remain there intact, untill you come to collect it again, thus meaning the bank is making no profit on your money apart from the small fee that they charge to hold your money in the box.
The second option is to spend your money for the sake of Allah, and give to the needy from amongst the muslims and to assist in the dawa, your return on your money will be far greater than anything you will gain by hording it in the bank.
The third option is that you can place your money in stock and trade in halal buisnesses, trade is permissible in Islam. also if you invest in halal muslim companies, in the muslim lands you will help to strengthen the economy of those lands. ( remember just because a business is run by muslims doesnt make it halal make sure the company is run by trustworthy practising muslims before you invest )
some claim that they need a bank account because their employers only pay by cheque, but you can ask for an open cheque that can be cashed at the till without being placed into an account. Thus negating the need for a bank account. riba is a very serious issue, it is haram, the least of it like commiting incest with your own mother.. it is no joke to be swimming in rivers of blood on the day of judgement...
this is a matter we are all taking too lightly today i often hear muslims saying " oh we have no choice " yes you have a choice you have several choices, and if you still dont find one of these options available to you, and you are unable to practice this part of your religion, then perhaps its time to think about making hijrah to a land where you can practice your deen insha Allah.
may Allah ta ala guide us all to goodness, and not make us of those who went astray and earned His wrath amin!
Cartman
16-09-07, 10:44 AM
MY father is of the opinion that any interest we garner should be given to charity without no expectation of a reward so that the jews don't use it, Id rather not deal with it period, what do y'all think?
MY father is of the opinion that any interest we garner should be given to charity without no expectation of a reward so that the jews don't use it, Id rather not deal with it period, what do y'all think?
this is the point, it doesnt make the slightest bit of difference if one gives the interest away or not, interest on ones personal money is only a part of the riba a person is dealing in, whilst saving their money in a bank.
There is so much more to this matter,as i said above, the bank is making riba money off of your money, lending it to other people to do as they like with, supporting the economy and thus supporting the government in opressing and killing your brothers and sisters globally.
yes a muslims money held in a non islamic bank, is paying for haram, is allowing the bank to make a whole heap of interest on your money, so therefore by merely placing your money in the bank, and holding it there, this means one is personally dealing in riba.
giving the interest away or not receiving interest on your account does not make it alright at all, you are still dealing in riba by just having your money there in the first place.
and considering that the least type of riba, is like doing incest with ones own mother, and considering you will be swimming in a river of blood having rocks in your mouth as you drown in blood on the day of judgment, then why oh why do muslims take this issue so lightly!!! :(
Al-Irhaab
16-09-07, 11:43 AM
hmmmmmm ... be very careful about keeping large sums of money at home.... and advertising it on the internet as well..
hmmmmmm ... be very careful about keeping large sums of money at home.... and advertising it on the internet as well..
:scratch: where did u read that ? spend your money in the way of Allah instead of hoarding it in haram riba systems which will only bring u torment. keep enough for emergencies ( ie: bills ) and enough to last u the next week for food, and to pay the rent, dont need anything more than this.
Al-Irhaab
16-09-07, 11:59 AM
people tend to save up some money etc for things, say if you need to buy a car or go to hajj or even travel... that money tends to build up to sometimes ten or fifteen thousand and sometimes much larger... i'm not saying your wrong in what you said or that you're right im just saying that people should be careful when saying they saving their money at home openly etc could lead to problems...
people tend to save up some money etc for things, say if you need to buy a car or go to hajj or even travel... that money tends to build up to sometimes ten or fifteen thousand and sometimes much larger... i'm not saying your wrong in what you said or that you're right im just saying that people should be careful when saying they saving their money at home openly etc could lead to problems...
:smack: can u please bring the part where i said one should leave their money at home, because there is nothing in what i have written that says this at all.
dhakiyya
16-09-07, 01:31 PM
:smack: can u please bring the part where i said one should leave their money at home, because there is nothing in what i have written that says this at all.
I don't think he was addressing it to you, I think it was a general warning to anyone reading the thread cause some Muslims keep their savings at home to avoid usury inshaAllah.
I don't think he was addressing it to you, I think it was a general warning to anyone reading the thread cause some Muslims keep their savings at home to avoid usury inshaAllah.
well it was an odd thing to say when no one had suggested any such thing and of course most muslims arent that stupid insha Allah ta ala, but then again if they find no other way to store their money and they insist on holding onto it and they cant bear to part with it for the sake of Allah ta ala, then maybe its better they do that than swim in rivers of blood on the day of judgement and spend their lives being at war with Allah ta ala because thats one war they will never ever win.
$HugoBoss$
16-09-07, 04:57 PM
I perfectly understand but where else can i put my money??????
I perfectly understand but where else can i put my money??????
i gave three alternative options in the first post, fifth paragraph from the bottem :up:
Al-Irhaab
16-09-07, 05:07 PM
deleted
RashidD
16-09-07, 05:10 PM
Aren't current accounts interest free?
$HugoBoss$
16-09-07, 05:15 PM
i gave three alternative options in the first post, fifth paragraph from the bottem :up:
Silly me :smack: forgot to read that part :)
:jkk:
RashidD
16-09-07, 05:17 PM
people should be very cautious before declaring something as dealing with riba without giving a scholars verdict and proper daleel from an alim about it ...
That's also what i was thinking... Even some scholars say they've been warned to stay away from speaking/ giving fatawa on it cos it's such a dangerous issue... Therefore laypeople should be even more cautious... On both ends of the scale... Saying this isn't and this is riba...
Aren't current accounts interest free?
is the bank not dealiing in riba at all on any level then ? it doesnt lend your money to people and charge them interest ? it doesnt deal in mortgages to other people ? it doesnt make any money from interest ? only then it is riba free.
That's also what i was thinking... Even some scholars say they've been warned to stay away from speaking/ giving fatawa on it cos it's such a dangerous issue... Therefore laypeople should be even more cautious... On both ends of the scale... Saying this isn't and this is riba...
i learnt this issue from a scolar, i learnt all aspects of it,i havent issued any fatawa i have bought what scolars have said about this issue, and unlike some people i dont go around speaking off the top of my head, ajeeb how people love to put people down and try and make out like theyre making it up themselves, when it goes against their desires.
so for those who have bank accounts, and think thats just fine, and are quite happy with them well you carry on then, at least i can stand before Allah ta ala and say i warned you.
but obviously being at war with Allah ta ala does not shake even el terroriste` well im done with this forum thats twice today i have been falsely accused when all i did was bring very basic islamic knowledge with the daleel from Allah ta ala and his messenger that every muslim should know. i did not issue any fatawa, this is very basic islamic knowledge, no wonder this ummah is in such a mess.
well you all enjoy your riba based banking and its benefits to you now because u wont be enjoying it for much longer. i suggest to every muslim, if you want to do anything in this life, from banking your money to entering into a buisness, then learn the islamic ruling on it in depth before u deal in it.
RashidD
16-09-07, 05:32 PM
My comments were not targetting you in the manner you alledge. They were a warning to you and others as well as myself. Please forgive me if i said anything wrong...
Saeed Al-Muslim
16-09-07, 05:43 PM
Aren't current accounts interest free?
No, not all banks have interest free current accounts. Although it can be arranged so that you personally are not in receipt of any interest. But interest charges can be incurred by you. This can be a percentage if you go into an agreed over draft limit, fines, monthly/year membership costs etc. etc. Not forgetting the initial article, which goes into greater detail.
Ma'aSalaama
Ibn Sina
16-09-07, 05:45 PM
Silly me :smack: forgot to read that part :)
:jkk:
Stash it under your bed! :outta:
RashidD
16-09-07, 05:52 PM
No, not all banks have interest free current accounts. Although it can be arranged so that you personally are not in receipt of any interest. But interest charges can be incurred by you. This can be a percentage if you go into an agreed over draft limit, fines, monthly/year membership costs etc. etc. Not forgetting the initial article, which goes into greater detail.
Ma'aSalaama
Oh ok i see what you mean, as in if you have a credit balance (overdraft) or breach that min limit thing right?
afsalim
16-09-07, 07:06 PM
That's something which will be extremely hard for me. I purchase shares, put in a collective investment scheme or use to buy assets, especially commercial grade real estate.
No, not all banks have interest free current accounts. Although it can be arranged so that you personally are not in receipt of any interest. But interest charges can be incurred by you. This can be a percentage if you go into an agreed over draft limit, fines, monthly/year membership costs etc. etc. Not forgetting the initial article, which goes into greater detail.
Ma'aSalaama
:wswrwb: :jkk: akhi this is what people are not understanding at all. even if you have an interest free current account where you are receiving no interest, the bank are still using your money to make interest/riba, and lending your money out to people and they then charge them riba for lending your money to them, as their whole buisness is based on riba. if people still feel that the only way is to still bank with them, then to avoid this, is to physically put your cash in a safety deposit box.
even if you have an interest free account in a riba based bank they have acess to use your funds as they please, its like saying its ok to go to a pub as long as u only contribute towards their buisness by buying lemonade and sit alone while you drink it... and not with the alcoholics..
this is why i wanted to explain to people how banks work they do not take your money and put it away in a box for safe keeping.
They lend it out to people, and make money off your money, as soon as you hand your money to the cashier you have dealt in riba.
you are giving them your money to make riba with.
without your business they cannot deal in riba. you are supporting a riba based buisness by banking with them wether u receive interest or not.
and the whole economy is based on this, take the muslims money out of their banks and their economy colapses.
Lambo5688
16-09-07, 08:38 PM
Checking accounts are interest free, no?
Checking accounts are interest free, no?
does this bank lend people money for free out of the goodness of their hearts because they want them to do well in life ? or does this bank deal in riba as their business ?
Lambo5688
16-09-07, 08:48 PM
does this bank lend people money for free out of the goodness of their hearts because they want them to do well in life ? or does this bank deal in riba as their business ?
RIBAAAAA :(
RIBAAAAA :(
sah akhi so then what difference does it make if u dont get riba on your checking account ? u still put your money into their bank to strengthen their riba based business ... and they lend your money to some kaffir to buy his first lambo ... and as u asked for an interest free account... then they dont even have to pay you the percentage of the interest that they made off your money ... so he gets the lambo, the bank made money off you and u dealt in riba .. and all so u could keep your money "safe" in the bank... u know what im saying ...
Lambo5688
16-09-07, 08:57 PM
sah akhi so then what difference does it make if u dont get riba on your checking account ? u still put your money into their bank to strengthen their riba based business ... and they lend your money to some kaffir to buy his first lambo ... and as u asked for an interest free account... then they dont even have to pay you the percentage of the interest that they made off your money ... so he gets the lambo, the bank made money off you and u dealt in riba .. and all so u could keep your money "safe" in the bank... u know what im saying ...
Where do you keep your money sis? If you don't mind me asking. I mean not the specific location...u know what I mean.
Where do you keep your money sis? If you don't mind me asking. I mean not the specific location...u know what I mean.
i spend it akhi , i dont keep any money apart from what i need for food and rent on a weekly basis Allah ta ala said "spend spend spend oh son of Adam and i will spend on you" hadith qudsi :up:
what is there to save for u could be dead tommorow ...spend it on dawa spend it in the way of Allah, spend it on what benefits you now and in the hearafter insha Allah. i remember we spoke about this once and i reminded u of uthman.. a billionare by our standards... how did he get to be so rich .. he kept on spending and spending in the way of Allah, uthman who the angels were shy from, uthman who married two of the prophets daughters salAllahu alleyhi wa salam
remember when the jewish man was charging massive prices to the muslims for water, and they were suffering so much because of this, and of course the water should be free ( just as they are doing in palestine today nothing changes eh )
and so uthman offered to buy out the well. the jew said no i make too much money on it but i will go into buisness with u so he charged uthman a price to be a part owner of the well .. and the deal was on day one the jew would sell water and collect the money from that, and the next day would be uthmans turn to trade from the well... so the jew as usual charged his massive prices..
and then it was uthmans day .. and he gave the water away for free to anyone who came, as much as they liked :D and so no one came to the jew the next day .. they just waited till it was uthmans day and they could have free water so the jew gave up and sold the whole well to uthman who continued to give free water to anyone who wanted it Alhamdulillah ...
Lambo5688
16-09-07, 09:24 PM
Yes I remember when you told me about Uthman.
But you don't save money for something you really want? What about security, if someone is to lose their job, should they not have reserved funds. I mean, I totally agree that we should spend for the sake of Allah, but while doing that, is it not ok to save some for yourself, for your children? If yes, where are we to keep that money safely?
Yes I remember when you told me about Uthman.
But you don't save money for something you really want? What about security, if someone is to lose their job, should they not have reserved funds. I mean, I totally agree that we should spend for the sake of Allah, but while doing that, is it not ok to save some for yourself, for your children? If yes, where are we to keep that money safely?
yes u can have something for emergencies its mentioned in the sahih hadith or u can put it in an islamic bank, or invest it in halal stock which is trading which is permissible in islam, or u can put it in a safety deposit box, that way u are only renting a box from them and they cant physically get to your money and make interest off it.
:start: i just wanted to help muslims understand how non islamic banking works :
According to Britannica.com, a bank is:
an institution that deals in money and its substitutes and provides other financial services. Banks accept deposits and make loans and derive a profit from the difference in the interest rates paid and charged, respectively.
Banks are critical to our economy. The primary function of banks is to put their account holders' money to use by lending it out to others who can then use it to buy homes, businesses, send kids to college...
When you deposit your money in the bank, your money goes into a big pool of money along with everyone else's, and your account is credited with the amount of your deposit. When you write checks or make withdrawals, that amount is deducted from your account balance. Interest you earn on your balance is also added to your account.
Banks create money in the economy by making loans. The amount of money that banks can lend is directly affected by the reserve requirement set by the Federal Reserve. The reserve requirement is currently 3 percent to 10 percent of a bank's total deposits. This amount can be held either in cash on hand or in the bank's reserve account with the Fed. To see how this affects the economy, think about it like this. When a bank gets a deposit of $100, assuming a reserve requirement of 10 percent, the bank can then lend out $90. That $90 goes back into the economy, purchasing goods or services, and usually ends up deposited in another bank. That bank can then lend out $81 of that $90 deposit, and that $81 goes into the economy to purchase goods or services and ultimately is deposited into another bank that proceeds to lend out a percentage of it.
In this way, money grows and flows throughout the community in a much greater amount than physically exists. That $100 makes a much larger ripple in the economy than you may realize! ( you can read more herehttp://money.howstuffworks.com/bank1.htm )
Now what does our deen al Islam, say about dealing in riba ?
“O you who believe! Be afraid of Allaah and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribaa (from now onward) if you are (really) believers!"
"And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger!"
" but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums) "
Surah al-Baqarah 278-279
“Those who eat Ribaa will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaytaan (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: “Trading is only like Riba,” whereas Allaah has permitted trading and forbidden Riba. So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Riba, shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allaah (to judge); but whoever returns (to Riba), such are the dwellers of the Fire — they will abide therein”
[al-Baqarah 2:275]
the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) "cursed the one who consumes riba and the one who pays it." Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5962.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“A dirham which a man consumes as riba knowingly is worse before Allaah than thirty-six acts of zina.”
Narrated by Ahmad and al-Tabaraani; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 3375.
And the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
“There are seventy-two types of riba, the least of which is like a man committing incest with his mother.”
Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Awsat; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 3537.
Narrated Samura bin Jundub:
Allah’s Apostle very often used to ask his companions, “Did anyone of you see a dream?” So dreams would be narrated to him by those whom Allah wished to tell. One morning the Prophet said, “Last night two persons came to me (in a dream) and woke me up and said to me, ‘Proceed!’ I set out with them and we came across a man Lying down, and behold, another man was standing over his head, holding a big rock. Behold, he was throwing the rock at the man’s head, injuring it. The rock rolled away and the thrower followed it and took it back. By the time he reached the man, his head returned to the normal state. The thrower then did the same as he had done before.
I said to my two companions, ‘Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?’ They said, ‘Proceed!’ So we proceeded and came to a man Lying flat on his back and another man standing over his head with an iron hook, and behold, he would put the hook in one side of the man’s mouth and tear off that side of his face to the back (of the neck) and similarly tear his nose from front to back and his eye from front to back. Then he turned to the other side of the man’s face and did just as he had done with the other side. He hardly completed this side when the other side returned to its normal state. Then he returned to it to repeat what he had done before.
I said to my two companions, ‘Subhan Allah! Who are these two persons?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed!’ So we proceeded and came across something like a Tannur (a kind of baking oven, a pit usually clay-lined for baking bread).” I think the Prophet said, “In that oven there was much noise and voices.” The Prophet added, “We looked into it and found naked men and women, and behold, a flame of fire was reaching to them from underneath, and when it reached them, they cried loudly.
I asked them, ‘Who are these?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed!’ And so we proceeded and came across a river.” I think he said, “…. red like blood.” The Prophet added, “And behold, in the river there was a man swimming, and on the bank there was a man who had collected many stones. Behold. while the other man was swimming, he went near him. The former opened his mouth and the latter (on the bank) threw a stone into his mouth whereupon he went swimming again. He returned and every time the performance was repeated.
I asked my two companions, ‘Who are these (two) persons?’ They replied, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ And we proceeded till we came to a man with a repulsive appearance, the most repulsive appearance, you ever saw a man having! Beside him there was a fire and he was kindling it and running around it.
I asked my companions, ‘Who is this (man)?’ They said to me, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ So we proceeded till we reached a garden of deep green dense vegetation, having all sorts of spring colors. In the midst of the garden there was a very tall man and I could hardly see his head because of his great height, and around him there were children in such a large number as I have never seen.
I said to my companions, ‘Who is this?’ They replied, ‘Proceed! Proceed!’ So we proceeded till we came to a majestic huge garden, greater and better than I have ever seen! My two companions said to me, ‘Go up and I went up’ The Prophet added, “So we ascended till we reached a city built of gold and silver bricks and we went to its gate and asked (the gatekeeper) to open the gate, and it was opened and we entered the city and found in it, men with one side of their bodies as handsome as the handsomest person you have ever seen, and the other side as ugly as the ugliest person you have ever seen. My two companions ordered those men to throw themselves into the river. Behold, there was a river flowing across (the city), and its water was like milk in whiteness.
Those men went and threw themselves in it and then returned to us after the ugliness (of their bodies) had disappeared and they became in the best shape.” The Prophet further added, “My two companions (angels) said to me, ‘This place is the Eden Paradise, and that is your place.’ I raised up my sight, and behold, there I saw a palace like a white cloud! My two companions said to me, ‘That (palace) is your place.’ I said to them, ‘May Allah bless you both! Let me enter it.’ They replied, ‘As for now, you will not enter it, but you shall enter it (one day) I said to them, ‘I have seen many wonders tonight. What does all that mean which I have seen?’
They replied, ‘We will inform you: As for the first man you came upon whose head was being injured with the rock, he is the symbol of the one who studies the Quran and then neither recites it nor acts on its orders, and sleeps, neglecting the enjoined prayers. As for the man you came upon whose sides of mouth, nostrils and eyes were torn off from front to back, he is the symbol of the man who goes out of his house in the morning and tells so many lies that it spreads all over the world.
And those naked men and women whom you saw in a construction resembling an oven, they are the adulterers and the adulteresses, and the man whom you saw swimming in the river and given a stone to swallow, is the eater of usury (Riba) and the bad looking man whom you saw near the fire kindling it and going round it, is Malik, the gatekeeper of Hell and the tall man whom you saw in the garden, is Abraham and the children around him are those children who die with Al-Fitra (the Islamic Faith).”
The narrator added: Some Muslims asked the Prophet, “O Allah’s Apostle! What about the children of pagans?” The Prophet replied, “And also the children of pagans.” The Prophet added, “My two companions added, ‘The men you saw half handsome and half ugly were those persons who had mixed an act that was good with another that was bad, but Allah forgave them.’”
[Bukhari. Volume 9, Book 87, Number 171]
clearly it is forbidden for muslims to deal in riba, now what many of you may not be aware of is that any money you deposit into a bank even if you do not accept the interest on it, you are assisting in strengthening the economy of the country you deposit your money with. Your money is used to lend to others for whatever they like, yes your money is paying for that £30,000 wedding for joe bloggs, your money is paying for thus assisting them in dealing in riba, and their opression of the muslims in other lands etc.
when you put your money into a bank, even if you do not collect the riba on it your money is lent to other people who the bank then charges interest.
yes mr.jones could be driving his new ferrarri all bought and paid for with your money, he will spend the next 10 years repaying the bank what he borrowed from your wealth, and the bank will make a good profit in riba off of it and you assisted them in that by placing your money with the bank...
banking is critical to the economy of a country. If every muslim with drew all of their money and closed their accounts with these banks then the economy would virtually collapse.
There are those today who claim that they have no option but to bank with such places because they have such large amounts of wealth that they need to keep safe.
One option for those with huge amounts of wealth to keep safe, is the lesser evil of a safety deposit box. you place your cash in the box, and no one can touch it, or use it or lend it to anyone else to make riba off it , because it will remain there intact, untill you come to collect it again, thus meaning the bank is making no profit on your money apart from the small fee that they charge to hold your money in the box.
The second option is to spend your money for the sake of Allah, and give to the needy from amongst the muslims and to assist in the dawa, your return on your money will be far greater than anything you will gain by hording it in the bank.
The third option is that you can place your money in stock and trade in halal buisnesses, trade is permissible in Islam. also if you invest in halal muslim companies, in the muslim lands you will help to strengthen the economy of those lands. ( remember just because a business is run by muslims doesnt make it halal make sure the company is run by trustworthy practising muslims before you invest )
some claim that they need a bank account because their employers only pay by cheque, but you can ask for an open cheque that can be cashed at the till without being placed into an account. Thus negating the need for a bank account. riba is a very serious issue, it is haram, the least of it like commiting incest with your own mother.. it is no joke to be swimming in rivers of blood on the day of judgement...
this is a matter we are all taking too lightly today i often hear muslims saying " oh we have no choice " yes you have a choice you have several choices, and if you still dont find one of these options available to you, and you are unable to practice this part of your religion, then perhaps its time to think about making hijrah to a land where you can practice your deen insha Allah.
may Allah ta ala guide us all to goodness, and not make us of those who went astray and earned His wrath amin!
Thank you Asiya,
Matthew 21: 12/13
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
Thank you Asiya,
Matthew 21: 12/13
"And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
exactly, it is something forbidden and a very serious sin.
hammerofthehuns
16-09-07, 10:49 PM
JazakAllahu khayr sis, i never realised there was any other way round getting paid in2 an account, gonna have a word with my boss inshaAllah, think how bad we could hit these thieves if we all refused 2 deal in this riba, their economy would fall 2 pieces and its upon every muslim here 2 not deal with them now the evidence is brought.
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 04:41 AM
people misunderstand the issues that are being brought forward...
the people that are cursed in the transaction of riba are the ones that give it and take it and the one who witnesses it....
when you take money as riba from a bank that is forbidden
when you give riba to a bank it is forbidden
dealing with a bank with non riba transactions is not riba, ulema have forbidden it because they say you are having business dealings with banks who commit riba which they state is forbidden as you are co-operating on evil deeds...
however the question that you have to ask yourself, living in a country where 99 percent of the times your wages must be paid into a bank paying for commodities etc through bank accounts, in what position are you capable of completely negating banks...even your taxes you have to pay through your banks afaik...
that is what i meant when i said ask an alim for ahkam, because there are fatawa available but most of them relate to banks in the muslim world where it is possible to choose non riba banks over riba banks and there are clear alternatives...
again people should be careful about the term Riba... riba is specific and doing business with someone who does riba is specific...
hammerofthehuns
17-09-07, 05:02 AM
yeah but if ur money is being used by these ppl 2 deal in riba and u can prevent it but u choose not 2 surely ur gonna be answerable for that.
even aside from the issue of keeping ur earnings halaal, if all the muslims refused to deal with these banks it would have such a massive impact on their banking system that it might seriously undermine their economy which is financing their armies 2 go and make war on the muslims, and thats a good enough reason on its own, let alone more importantly obeying Allah 2 avoid usury.
hammerofthehuns
17-09-07, 05:02 AM
edit
people misunderstand the issues that are being brought forward...
the people that are cursed in the transaction of riba are the ones that give it and take it and the one who witnesses it....
when you take money as riba from a bank that is forbidden
when you give riba to a bank it is forbidden
dealing with a bank with non riba transactions is not riba, ulema have forbidden it because they say you are having business dealings with banks who commit riba which they state is forbidden as you are co-operating on evil deeds...
however the question that you have to ask yourself, living in a country where 99 percent of the times your wages must be paid into a bank paying for commodities etc through bank accounts, in what position are you capable of completely negating banks...even your taxes you have to pay through your banks afaik...
that is what i meant when i said ask an alim for ahkam, because there are fatawa available but most of them relate to banks in the muslim world where it is possible to choose non riba banks over riba banks and there are clear alternatives...
again people should be careful about the term Riba... riba is specific and doing business with someone who does riba is specific...
This is exactly what i have been explaining in this thread so no one has misunderstood anything and u have just contradicted yourself.
you said yourself that the ulema have forbidden it, that by putting your money into their riba based buisness you are aiding them in sin and trangression. which is why i made this thread to explain the issues.
you are lending them your money, to make riba off of other people even if you dont recieve that yourself so youre saying ...
" ok here have £10,000 of my money make as much riba off it as you like, use it to lend to other people for what their hearts desires charge them massive amounts of interest for borrowing my money, strengthen the economy and fight ur wars with and u know what i dont even want a share of your profits because i cant accept riba so you just enjoy all the benefits of keeping my money in your bank thanks very much "
The bank managers must be creased up laughing under their desks when a muslim comes in and says " i want an account with you to keep my money in but i dont want any interest on it " .. its a bank managers dream to be given your money to play with, without giving any of the profit he makes off your money to you.
if people feel that they need to ask a scolar to give them fatawa, with a get out clause , then i ask them why do they need a fatawa to allow them to deal with these banks ? why cant they do as i have done all my life and deal with cash only ? and i am not in a muslim land there is no islamic bank here. There is no necessity at all for someone to aid sin and trangression in dealing with these riba based banks, i have been getting on just fine in the world, from canada to europe to the uk, like this for 20 years now without a bank account. its like those who insist they need to buy a house on a mortgage when they dont at all, they can rent there is no necessity at all for them to buy a house with riba.
unless of course the country you live in has banned cash transactions...? i dont know of any country in the world that has done that yet.
yes im sure u can go fatawa shopping today and you will eventually find someone to allow whatever, u name it , u can get a fatwa for it these days...
yeah but if ur money is being used by these ppl 2 deal in riba and u can prevent it but u choose not 2 surely ur gonna be answerable for that.
even aside from the issue of keeping ur earnings halaal, if all the muslims refused to deal with these banks it would have such a massive impact on their banking system that it might seriously undermine their economy which is financing their armies 2 go and make war on the muslims, and thats a good enough reason on its own, let alone more importantly obeying Allah 2 avoid usury.
sah :jkk: holding your money in these riba based banks supports the economy which makes countries in a powerful economic position so that they are able to attack the muslim lands, by holding your money in the bank you are contributing to this killing of muslims, and you are supporting their wars, i have been running my own home and working since i was 16 years old im now in my 30`s and have never had a bank account with such people, i have never had a debit card, or a credit card, or a cheque book. i pay my bills in cash, and i shop with cash. if i need something i save for it, then buy it, cash.
As I always say, go see a scholar who knows the rulings and can give you proper advice. Internet fatwa's are not my cup of tea and I dont really care who wrote them. For all I know that person may not even exist.
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 11:43 AM
yeah but if ur money is being used by these ppl 2 deal in riba and u can prevent it but u choose not 2 surely ur gonna be answerable for that.
even aside from the issue of keeping ur earnings halaal, if all the muslims refused to deal with these banks it would have such a massive impact on their banking system that it might seriously undermine their economy which is financing their armies 2 go and make war on the muslims, and thats a good enough reason on its own, let alone more importantly obeying Allah 2 avoid usury.
then bro based on that argument, when you pay your electricity bill you pay it into a bank account of a company and that bank will use that money to make profit from riba, when you buy a car you pay a man and they will put that money into an account of bank that uses it to make profit from riba. So if your going to say its haram to put money into a bank account full stop and its haram to co-operate with a bank then it will also be haram to help someone co-operate with a bank ie by doing business with that person...
if you want to try avoiding dealing with banks in order to weaken their economy then that is a good intention, i don't think its gonna get anywhere because most muslims arent even practicing so they not gonna give two hoots anyway. But to turn around and say its completely forbidden to deal in non interest transactions with banks on the guise of co-operating on sin whilst living in the west is completely not understanding the reality of living in the west...
another thing to consider, donating money to mosques and to charities and to organisations such as hhugs or cagedprisoners... they have bank accounts as well, so now technically if you want to talk about co-operating on sin then its forbidden to donate to them... how about paying bail for muslims who have been wrongly accused? you need to write cheques to give to the prison service you can't have a cheque without a bank account... how about any business that you run? are you going to take cash payments only no cheque or card payments?
hammerofthehuns
17-09-07, 11:54 AM
then bro based on that argument, when you pay your electricity bill you pay it into a bank account of a company and that bank will use that money to make profit from riba, when you buy a car you pay a man and they will put that money into an account of bank that uses it to make profit from riba. So if your going to say its haram to put money into a bank account full stop and its haram to co-operate with a bank then it will also be haram to help someone co-operate with a bank ie by doing business with that person...
if you want to try avoiding dealing with banks in order to weaken their economy then that is a good intention, i don't think its gonna get anywhere because most muslims arent even practicing so they not gonna give two hoots anyway. But to turn around and say its completely forbidden to deal in non interest transactions with banks on the guise of co-operating on sin whilst living in the west is completely not understanding the reality of living in the west...
another thing to consider, donating money to mosques and to charities and to organisations such as hhugs or cagedprisoners... they have bank accounts as well, so now technically if you want to talk about co-operating on sin then its forbidden to donate to them... how about paying bail for muslims who have been wrongly accused? you need to write cheques to give to the prison service you can't have a cheque without a bank account... how about any business that you run? are you going to take cash payments only no cheque or card payments?
yes brother, but u have an agreement 2 pay the company for the electricity u bought, when u deposit the cash, its no longer urs, it becomes the electricity companys, so ur free of that inshaAllah.
u cant be held responsible inshaAllah for what other ppl do with the money, u can only ensure what u own isnt used in riba transactions.
and the point about the masajid and organisations is right, they should withdraw their capital from the banks and deal in alternative methods.
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 11:59 AM
yes brother, but u have an agreement 2 pay the company for the electricity u bought, when u deposit the cash, its no longer urs, it becomes the electricity companys, so ur free of that inshaAllah.
u cant be held responsible inshaAllah for what other ppl do with the money, u can only ensure what u own isnt used in riba transactions.
and the point about the masajid and organisations is right, they should withdraw their capital from the banks and deal in alternative methods.
exactly, when you pay the man you are no longer responsible for your actions.... but if you go down the argument of co-operating on sin, then you are helping him co-operate on sin by giving him money to deposit in a bank, the other alternative is to not have electricity and survive on fire...
the problems that charity organisations have bro is that say theyre based in london and there is a guy in manchester who wants to give money, what can they do? get him to drive down to london to give them money? ok he does that, then how do they get the money to say pakistan? if they use any money exchange companies they have to at some stage put money into a bank, otherwise the option is to carry a few hundred thousand pounds on an airplane and through the streets of lahore...
the fact of the matter is, stay away from riba, dont have interest in your bank accounts, dont take out interest loans etc etc...
hammerofthehuns
17-09-07, 12:16 PM
yeah but u have 2 pay for ur lekki bro or their gonna cut u off!
when u pay it in, u have no control over it is what im trying 2 say, on the other hand if ur depositing savings or wages u can take it out and stop them vultures from using it in their riba deals.
regarding the charity thing, cos im so used 2 dealing with banks i dont really know the alternatives but there must be other ways surely.
bro ur supposed 2 be clever man!" their laughing all the way 2 the bank:rolleyes: with ppl like urself cos ur just giving them ur capital so they can make all this profit off u in their haraam deals! if u refused 2 deal with them, the money they could lend out in riba would be less and this is gonna have a knock on effect on the whole western economy, look how things are slowing down here in uk and ireland cos the of the state of the us property market, their gonna have less money to give to the jews 2 buy m16s with.
beardsong
17-09-07, 12:22 PM
.. or u can put it in a safety deposit box, that way u are only renting a box from them and they cant physically get to your money and make interest off it.
So in essence the fee you pay for renting the box goes into the banks funds, which are also then involved in riba, correct?
So in essence the fee you pay for renting the box goes into the banks funds, which are also then involved in riba, correct?
brother its about the lesser of the evils. if you find u have so much money and u have no where to keep it safely then u pay a small fee to rent the box, that is a buinsess transaction, i rent the box i pay my money khalass the transaction is over i paid my money and what they do with my money that i paid for a service with is no concern of mine. and at least in a box your money isnt being lent out for them to make ribaa off right ? at least they make no profit in riba from your money, but if you put it in an account then you are now assisting them in dealing in riba based transactions, and theyre laughing ...all the way to the bank... as they say ...
anyway alhamdulillah as our brother hammerofthehuns has also explained if every muslim in the west physicaly took their cash out of the riba based banking system, the whole western economy would collapse.
the argument of what someone does with their money after you have paid for their service ie: electricity example is just completely ridiculous, once i have paid my money for the service, it is nothing to do with me what that person does, i am paying for a service and that is something permissible in islam , it is trade.
so if i buy some halal kebab then the shop owner goes and uses his profits to buy and drink beer with is that my fault ? of course not i paid for my kebab khalass the business transaction is now over the minute i hand over the agreed price. what that man does with the profit of his business is nothing to do with me at all not even slightly.
you cannot say the same about giving your money to banks to play the riba game with, because you have not completed your transaction you are openly trading in riba as your money is physically being used in the riba trade untill you withdraw it all again. The transaction is incomplete and ongoing..
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 01:33 PM
yeah but u have 2 pay for ur lekki bro or their gonna cut u off!
when u pay it in, u have no control over it is what im trying 2 say, on the other hand if ur depositing savings or wages u can take it out and stop them vultures from using it in their riba deals.
regarding the charity thing, cos im so used 2 dealing with banks i dont really know the alternatives but there must be other ways surely.
bro ur supposed 2 be clever man!" their laughing all the way 2 the bank:rolleyes: with ppl like urself cos ur just giving them ur capital so they can make all this profit off u in their haraam deals! if u refused 2 deal with them, the money they could lend out in riba would be less and this is gonna have a knock on effect on the whole western economy, look how things are slowing down here in uk and ireland cos the of the state of the us property market, their gonna have less money to give to the jews 2 buy m16s with.
the issue is not of control, it is of aiding someone is doing sin... if you didnt buy things from people then they would not have money to put into bank accounts and that would stop the banks earning riba... so in effect you are co-operating on evil by buying things from people who you know are going to use the banking system... its like saying can you give charity to someone who you know is going to use the money to buy drugs? i mean you just gave him the money its not your fault how he used it...
also if you actually talk about supporting the kuffar, then every transaction you do you pay 17.5 percent tax to the government which they use to go and kill muslims... secondly the strength of the economy is not based upon their riba ammount which goes to a few mens pockets, but is based upon buying and selling and the continuous movement of money... the more you buy and sell the more it benefits the economy the more stronger the government gets... does that mean its haram to buy and sell...
again like is aid bro there is one thing saying we must abolish all riba banks etc which is definite, then there is another thing saying its haram to deal with any bank whilst living with the kuffar... try to see if you can get paid cash in hand for what you work, or if you can remove banking from your every day life...
i have never had a bank account and i am in my 30`s now and i managed to raise two sons,work and run a home pay all my bills for the last 20 years since i was 16 years old with no bank account no cheque book and no credit card and i wasnt even a muslim then so im not about to go out and get a bank account now just because you claim its not possible.
oh shock horrror :eek: it can actually be done !! ... so yes it is easy to do in the lands of kuffr. very easy.
the argument of what someone does with their money after you have paid for their service ie: electricity example is just completely ridiculous, once i have paid my money for the service, it is nothing to do with me what that person does, i am paying for a service and that is something permissible in islam , it is trade.
so if i buy some halal kebab then the shop owner goes and uses his profits to buy and drink beer with is that my fault ? of course not i paid for my kebab khalass the business transaction is now over the minute i hand over the agreed price. what that man does with the profit of his business is nothing to do with me at all not even slightly.
I'd have to agree with you.
But then why are so many involved in boycotting this company or that company, if what the man does with the profit is his own business?
I'd have to agree with you.
But then why are so many involved in boycotting this company or that company, if what the man does with the profit is his own business?
well as the economy of a country is based on profit, i presume they are trying to effect the economy of that country to weaken it so that it will not be able to afford to fight wars against the muslims ... which brings us back to the subject.. :up:
Harry_P
17-09-07, 10:48 PM
ASA WW,
The basic principle in the original post is absolutely correct. The western banking system is based largely on the premise that banks make money by lending money. If a bank does not have deposits (potentially your money that is deposited), it then cannot issue loans and thereby cannot make profit on it. Whether the depositing of your funds constitutes witnessing, aiding of riba etc is down to interpretation and Allah SWT knows best. But if you can avoid, this is surely better for your Taqwa.
It is, however, possible to have halal bank account, where your deposits cannot be used for any haraam activity. The deposits are ring-fenced and cannot be invested by the bank to earn profit for themselves. The bank cannot even park your money into funds that are associated with Gambling, Tobacco, Alcohol industries. These accounts are Shariah Compliant and have a panel of jurists advising the bank on the correct operation.
So here you have the safeguard that not only are you not earning interest, but your savings are not oiling the wheels of western capitalism. Such accounts exist at HSBC Amanah, Lloyds TSB (LTSB also have a Student Islamic Account :)) and Islamic Bank of Britain. I'm sure similar exist in France, USA
Capitalism and the entire western banking system is founded on DEBT (look at a UK banknote and you will see the words "I promise to pay the bearer...") If you study deeper, you will also learn that the US banking system is further built upon the ability of a bank to lend against what it doesn't even hold in deposits ie the whole credit driven culture that we live within.
In summary I agree with the original post that you can avoid having your deposits used by the bank for Riba purposes. But this is to not belittle the Niyyat of the person who waives his interest in the knowledge that he has sufficiently obeyed the command of his Rabb. It is only from learning and discovery that the Ummah will grow more united and understand the consequences of their conduct Insha Allah.
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 10:56 PM
ASA WW,
The basic principle in the original post is absolutely correct. The western banking system is based largely on the premise that banks make money by lending money. If a bank does not have deposits (potentially your money that is deposited), it then cannot issue loans and thereby cannot make profit on it. Whether the depositing of your funds constitutes witnessing, aiding of riba etc is down to interpretation and Allah SWT knows best. But if you can avoid, this is surely better for your Taqwa.
It is, however, possible to have halal bank account, where your deposits cannot be used for any haraam activity. The deposits are ring-fenced and cannot be invested by the bank to earn profit for themselves. The bank cannot even park your money into funds that are associated with Gambling, Tobacco, Alcohol industries. These accounts are Shariah Compliant and have a panel of jurists advising the bank on the correct operation.
So here you have the safeguard that not only are you not earning interest, but your savings are not oiling the wheels of western capitalism. Such accounts exist at HSBC Amanah, Lloyds TSB (LTSB also have a Student Islamic Account :)) and Islamic Bank of Britain. I'm sure similar exist in France, USA
Capitalism and the entire western banking system is founded on DEBT (look at a UK banknote and you will see the words "I promise to pay the bearer...") If you study deeper, you will also learn that the US banking system is further built upon the ability of a bank to lend against what it doesn't even hold in deposits ie the whole credit driven culture that we live within.
In summary I agree with the original post that you can avoid having your deposits used by the bank for Riba purposes. But this is to not belittle the Niyyat of the person who waives his interest in the knowledge that he has sufficiently obeyed the command of his Rabb. It is only from learning and discovery that the Ummah will grow more united and understand the consequences of their conduct Insha Allah.
ur missing the point of the original post, its not only haram to have an interest bearing account with a bank, its also haram to have a non interest bearing account with a bank that ultimately deals in riba full stop, because you are co-operating with them... so even hsbcs allegedly compliant sharia banking will be haram because you are helping hsbc make money and thus aiding them as a bank and aiding in their riba working..
hammerofthehuns
17-09-07, 11:01 PM
exactly bro
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 11:06 PM
another thing that people need to understand is that two countries and two places are not necessarily the same, in the same way living in a village is not the same as living in a city, working in a village is not the same as working in a village, a person who never travels further than around the block does not have the same life as the person who travels around the world, a person who deals in small transactions is not the same as a person who deals in a whole business....
anyone can try to apply their life to others and say such and such can be done or cannot be done... however what they say may not actually fit to another persons life... the other point to note is that when you make a principle especially about something that is haram or halal that principle applies to not just one action but to every actions as well...
Harry_P
17-09-07, 11:10 PM
ur missing the point of the original post, its not only haram to have an interest bearing account with a bank, its also haram to have a non interest bearing account with a bank that ultimately deals in riba full stop, because you are co-operating with them... so even hsbcs allegedly compliant sharia banking will be haram because you are helping hsbc make money and thus aiding them as a bank and aiding in their riba working..
If an arms dealer / manufacturer, or Casino proprietor approached HSBC and asked for a loan then HSBC could not issue a loan against the deposits it held in Amanah Bank Accounts. If all Muslims held funds in Sharia Compliant accounts, then this would debilitate the western banking system to an extent, but not cripple it. Funds held in Sharia compliant bank accounts have been syndicated and used to fund social housing projects, provide start-up capital for Muslim commercial businesses and also many non muslim but deemed ethical purposes where Riba has not entered into the transaction. I therefore humbly refute that I missed the original point Jk
i am now living on an island i have lived in canada and england for years too and i didnt ever need a bank account in either country. In my initial posts i did not say it is flat out haram to bank with these people, i am making a point about riba being haram, that banks are dealing in riba so lets not assist them in that if we can possibly avoid it, i gave options to assist in avoiding it, and mentioned that if we find it too difficult to live in the lands of kufr lets think about getting out of here especially if we dont have a valid shariah for being here, and the title is why one shouldnt put their money into these banks, because it strengthens their economies which are all based on riba, hope thats clearer insha Allah ta ala
and another thing, many muslims boycott goods in trade, and trade is permissible in Islam, but we dont boycott banks we assist them in their trangression and strengthen the economy, far more than buying a bag of oranges strengthens the economy, and plus riba is haram in Islam but we dont think twice about assisting in that ... and that just doesnt make any sense at all now does it ...
Al-Irhaab
17-09-07, 11:21 PM
If an arms dealer / manufacturer, or Casino proprietor approached HSBC and asked for a loan then HSBC could not issue a loan against the deposits it held in Amanah Bank Accounts. If all Muslims held funds in Sharia Compliant accounts, then this would debilitate the western banking system to an extent, but not cripple it. Funds held in Sharia compliant bank accounts have been syndicated and used to fund social housing projects, provide start-up capital for Muslim commercial businesses and also many non muslim but deemed ethical purposes where Riba has not entered into the transaction. I therefore humbly refute that I missed the original point Jk
sorry bro didnt mean it as an offence, i was not aware that the Amana accounts would not give out money in riba investment... so when they give out the money to businesses as investment how do they make profit?
Harry_P
18-09-07, 06:04 PM
sorry bro didnt mean it as an offence, i was not aware that the Amana accounts would not give out money in riba investment... so when they give out the money to businesses as investment how do they make profit?
They apply traditional islamic "partnership" arrangements, as is the case with a Halal Mortgage. So the bank becomes a joint investor instead of a lender, and takes a share of the profit as their fee.
No offence was taken - I was just following the Northern Rock story and came across this thread, so I signed up so I could post my two dhirams worth!
The underlying point ie: - unknowingly assiting the banking system is valid, but there is a lot more to it than just opting out of the banking system. Whilst there is a choice in most respects re Islamic current accounts and mortgages, there is very little choice for business and commercial finance. Therefore it is better to cultivate your own sharia systems. I heard that Islamic Bank of Britain is going to launch in France next year. Before you know it we may have a Multi-national Islamic bank!
The more Islamic institutions enter the mainstream, the more opportunity there will be to shape the existing institutions to serve the needs of the Islamic customer base.
So much so that one day Insha Allah, non muslims will also see the benefits of a non Riba based banking system. That then could even become Dawah
well as the economy of a country is based on profit, i presume they are trying to effect the economy of that country to weaken it so that it will not be able to afford to fight wars against the muslims ... which brings us back to the subject..
So your paying for a safe deposit box at a bank does not enable the bank to loan money to companies and governments that might use those funds to produce/access equipment that would enable them to wage war against Muslims?
I'd think think that it would be more Islamic to not deal with banks at all if one were truly serious about not getting involved with riba.
So your paying for a safe deposit box at a bank does not enable the bank to loan money to companies and governments that might use those funds to produce/access equipment that would enable them to wage war against Muslims?
I'd think think that it would be more Islamic to not deal with banks at all if one were truly serious about not getting involved with riba.
i`ve already explained that. Not dealing with them at all is obviously the point. If u can possibly avoid it, then dont deal with them at all. And It is possible insha Allah ta ala .
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