Allah's Hands

[Fulltime_Muslim]

Salam'alikum Brothers & Sisters,
Please answer my question (presenting proof from the Quran or Hadith if you can). Does Allah have Two Right Hands or does He have a Left Hand and a Right Hand?

According to the Hadith of Sahih Muslim (Book 39, Hadith Number 6704) I assume that Allah has One Right Hand and One Left Hand, but I heard from others that Allah has Two Right Hands.

Jazakullah Khair

[elji]

Salam'alikum Brothers & Sisters,
Please answer my question (presenting proof from the Quran or Hadith if you can). Does Allah have Two Right Hands or does He have a Left Hand and a Right Hand?

According to the Hadith of Sahih Muslim (Book 39, Hadith Number 6704) I assume that Allah has One Right Hand and One Left Hand, but I heard from others that Allah has Two Right Hands.

Jazakullah Khair

Truth is i dont know... I dont think anyone knows..

from Surah Ikhlas "And there is none like him" So i wouldnt compare Him to having hands. Like us humans. He is uncomparable to anything in this world.

[Fulltime_Muslim]

Ofcourse Allah is nothing like His creation. I am not talking about Allah's hands as though They are physical. It's ofcousre impossible to imagine how Allah's hands look like. But my question is whether Allah has 2 Right hands or 1 Right and 1 Left.

Brother do you know the meaning of Kursi(in arabic)? please tell me if so.

and Ramadan Mubarak to you. Jazakullah

[elji]

Ofcourse Allah is nothing like His creation. I am not talking about Allah's hands as though They are physical. It's ofcousre impossible to imagine how Allah's hands look like. But my question is whether Allah has 2 Right hands or 1 Right and 1 Left.

Brother do you know the meaning of Kursi(in arabic)? please tell me if so.

and Ramadan Mubarak to you. Jazakullah

Ramadhan Mubarak to you too

Kursi is throne.

[Abu Mus'ab]

What is your motive behind this question?

[Fulltime_Muslim]

I came across a Hadith of Sahih Muslim which states:
"Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would fold the Heavens on the Day of Judgment and then He would place them on His tight hand and say: I am the Lord; where are the haughty and where are the proud (today)? He would fold the' earth (placing it) on the lef t hand and say: I am the Lord; where are the haughty and where are the proud (today)?

I also heard from other people that Allah has 2 Right Hands. But what I heard and what is stated in this Hadith conflict (I assume). So now I am confused and want to be clarified on this issue.

[chitownmuslim]

Allah (swt) does not have physical parts or hands in the literal sense.. the hadiths and Quranic verses that mention his hands are supposed to be understood in their general meaning; the meaning of the verse/hadith as a whole without delving into specifics..

[Lone Wolf]

the use of hands/throne in Islamic literature is as similes to help us better understand what is meant, not to mean God actually has two hands or needs to sit down!!

[Samurai]

The two hands according to sufis and urufa are refering to the hand of majesty/glory (jalal) in which it's effect on creation is awe/fear and hand of beauty (jamal) on which it's effect on creation is desire/hope/love , and it's said for ever jalal there is there in a jamal and for every jamal there is jalal.

So the these are Allah's (swt) two hands refer to when Allah (swt) spoke about Adam (as). Other verses, however, it can have other meanings.

Ofcourse it's not literal and they are not Allah's (swt) parts or anything like that, none of the verses meant Allah (swt) had those parts, it's a figure of speech to protay a concept to the reader, the two hands in the verse relating to Adam (as) refers to the two means of causing servitude and worship in God's creation, to just as hands are means to do things, it's refer to that there.

wa salam

[abdulwakil]

...

[Cashew]

The "God's hands" and "God's throne" questions have come up a number of times on this forum.

In normative contemporary Christian theology, God is described as "wholly holy Other."

In other words, God is entirely independent of and beyond human conception.

I thought Islam and Christianity agreed on this point.

[Leena_Cnd]

In normative contemporary
Christian theology, God is described as "wholly holy Other."
In other words, God is entirely independent of and
beyond human conception.
I thought Islam and Christianity agreed on this point.

"normative contemporary Christian" :confused:

On the contrary !
Aside from catholicism, most main stream christian
religions, teach that Jesus is god.
Last I heard, Jesus pbuh had two hands.

btw
" wholly holy Other ":scratch:


~

[Abandoned-Mind]

al-Imam al-Dhahabi says:

“Why do you say: ‘A hand in reality is this bodily limb’? Rather, a ‘hand’ is homonym, and it is in accordance with, and of the same category of what it is attributed to. Therefore, if the thing described therewith is an animal then the hand would be a bodily limb. If it were was statue made of brass and stone, the hand would also be of brass and stone. If it were an image drawn on the wall, the hand would be a drawing. If it were that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body, the hand would also be that of which neither there is a like, nor it is a body”

He also says:

“If it is said: ‘In its conventional usage, a hand only refers to the limb that we all know of’ We would say in reply: Similarly, in conventional usage, knowledge, hearing and seeing are only accidents that subsist in bodies. Where, then, is the difference?”

Ithbat al-Yad lilLahi subhanah p. 42-44 by al-Imam al-Dhahabi.


Imaam Ahmad (d. 241H) said: "These ahaadeeth should be left as they are… We affirm them and we do not make any similitude for them. This is what has been agreed upon by the scholars."
[Reported by Ibn al-Jawzee in Manaaqib Imaam Ahmad (p.155-156).]

[al faqeer]

Cough !!!!!! Khalafi Tajseem ! :D .

[Um Abdullah]

brother
it is best not to bring up questions in this forum related to Allah's attributes, as there are Muslim sects in this forum who do not believe like we do (that Allah does have hands that are not like creations hands).

In regards to your question the scholars said that Allah has a right hand and a left one by name (meaning one called right and the other left), but both his hands are "yameen" which means that they are both blessed (mubaraka), and are perfect with no fault or defect, not like our hands, in which the left is lacking & not blessed.

[al faqeer]

There is Nothing Like Allah SWT - Anything you or or scholars think and say is not Allah SWT .

Allah has spoken the truth and the rest are liars .

[Um Abdullah]

alhamdulillah, I believe what Allah told us in Quran, and what His messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told us in Sunnah.

now go and post something beneficial somewhere else, and don't waste our time, as I am ignoring your useless posts insha Allah.

[Abu.Bakr]

Brother do you know the meaning of Kursi(in arabic)? please tell me if so

Akhi, according to the scholars Kursi is translated as 'footstool'

'Arsh is translated as 'throne'

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Assalamu Alaikum

Well they say the first step is admitting the problem and we have an example of that above, alhamdulillaah.

As for Allaah's attributes, we only affirm what Allaah affirms for himself and what is found in the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad :saw: We do not ask what, how, why etc... as this leads one astray.

[.: Anna :.]

Please could users not alter other people's user name as they may not like it, you should stick to the one they use insha allah

[Samurai]

This is from Al-Mizan:

Hannan said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) [Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq (as)] about the Throne and the Chair. He replied: 'Verily, the Throne has many diverse attributes. Allah uses in the Qur'an various adjectives to describe its various aspects. He says: the Lord of the great Throne (9:129). It means; Lord of the great kingdom or authority. And He says: The Beneficent (God) on the Throne is firm (20:5). It means that He is firm in His kingdom. And it is the knowledge of the "how" of the things. Also, the Throne, although together with it, is distinct from the Chair; because they are two of the greatest doors of the unseen, and they both are unseen. And they are together in the unseen, because the Chair is the manifest door of the un*seen, from which appears creation and from which all the things come. And the Throne is the concealed door of the unseen in which is found the knowledge of the states, conditions and exist*ence; of measure and limit; of will and intention; as well as the knowledge of words, actions and omissions, and the knowledge of the beginning and the return. Thus, the two are two gates of knowledge joined together, because the dominion of the Throne is other than the dominion of the Chair, and its (the Throne's) knowledge is more hidden than the knowledge of the Chair. That is why Allah said, "the Lord of the great Throne"; that is, its attribute is greater than that of the Chair, and both are joined in it.' " (Hannan says) "I said: 'May I be your ransom, then why did it become associated with the Chair in excellence?' He (the Imam) said: It was associated with it because the knowledge of the state and condition is found in it. And in it are found the manifest doors of al-bada' (the decree hidden from other); as well as its reality and the dimensions of its joining and separating. Therefore, they are two neighbors, one of which contains the other in itself. And by similitude are turned those who know, and so that they may offer proof for the truth of their claims. Because He chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and He is the Mighty, the Powerful.' " (at-Tawhid)

---

[Samurai]

Perhaps a sufi can correct me if I'm wrong about this but kursi pertains to the names in state of actions and pertains to the mulk while arsh pertains to the hidden realities and that pertains to malakut.

The two hands when refering to malakut (like inward state of Adam (as) and his knowledgethe names) it probably refers to the arsh Jamal glories and arsh Jalal glories and the both are manifestations of the Eternal one who is not diverse but single in essence and the Quran unites both and infact belongs to neither side but is in the middle as is the inclanation of the Ahadi heart of Ahmad (saw). And in reality all the names in state of actions, or the inward glories which are manifestations of Allah (swt) essence are all one, and manifest the same one essence which is not diverse and mean the same thing in reality.

[al faqeer]

Perhaps a sufi can correct me if I'm wrong about this but kursi pertains to the names in state of actions and pertains to the mulk while arsh pertains to the hidden realities and that pertains to malakut.

The two hands when refering to malakut (like inward state of Adam (as) and his knowledgethe names) it probably refers to the arsh Jamal glories and arsh Jalal glories and the both are manifestations of the Eternal one who is not diverse but single in essence and the Quran unites both and infact belongs to neither side but is in the middle as is the inclanation of the Ahadi heart of Ahmad (saw). And in reality all the names in state of actions, or the inward glories which are manifestations of Allah (swt) essence are all one, and manifest the same one essence which is not diverse and mean the same thing in reality.

Just say Allah knows best :)

[Silver Pearl]

Wa Alaykum salam warahamtullaah,

Saying Allaah has a hand or two hands or two eyes literally is stating the how. Likewise saying Allaah is on his arsh bidatihi is again answering the how. It wouldn't kill for people to stay away from the verses of mutashabihat. Just say Allaahu'3llaam rather than asking questions that will not help your Imaan but may cause you some grieve.

[Samurai]

Just say Allah knows best :)

Jazakallah.

May God save me from the destruction of delusion of knowledge. May God save me from ignorance and an attempt of collecting terms from people of knowledge with out experiencing and truly recieving knowledge. Thank you brother for the advice, at the end, these verses have it's people, and I'm certainly not a person to interpet them.

I will be ending debating this Ramadan inshallah.

Wish you all the best.

salam alaicom wa rahmatallah wa barakatu

[Ibn Sina]

Eh .... Allah dosen't have a body and is free from any bodily form if thats what you're implying ....

[al-ghazalli]

Perhaps a sufi can correct me if I'm wrong about this but kursi pertains to the names in state of actions and pertains to the mulk while arsh pertains to the hidden realities and that pertains to malakut.

When it comes to Allah's attributes the majority Sufi's prefer tafwid (bi la kayr wa la mana), without asking how, without dwelling unto its meaning.

You can read this throughout sufi literature that most stayed away from ta`wil and to be very honest for the average layman this is the best way.


And Allah Knows Best.


Ramadan Kareem! :)

[the_middle_road]

As far as I know there are three views concerning this issue.

Firstly, those who affirm these things without saying how, and they are of the Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jama'ah. Then are those who interpret these things figuratively, eg. His Hand means His Dominion, and they are mostly from the Khalaf and they too are from the Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jama'ah. Then are those who regard these things literally, that is they believe that Allah (swt) has a hand like ours and that His sitting is a physical sitting etc. They are the Mujassimah (anthropomorphists) and they have been declared as kuffar.

Wallahu a'lam.

[Samurai]

Assalamu alaikom

Although i wanted not to debate these issues in Ramadan, i thought I would post some sufi tafsirs since what i said didn't represent sufi view and hopefully someone (perhaps Universal-Islam) can explain what is said.

This is from Tafsir Ibn Arabi (or the tafseer "attributed" to him but is his student's)


{ وسِع كُرسيه السموات والأرض } أي: علمه، إذ الكرسيّ مكان العلم الذي هو القلب. كما قال أبو يزيد البسطامي رحمة الله عليه: لو وقع العالم وما فيه ألف ألف مرّة في زاوية من زوايا قلب العارف ما أحسّ به لغاية سعته. ولهذا قال الحسن: كرسيه: عرشه، مأخوذ من قوله عليه السلام: " قلب المؤمن من عرش الله " والكرسي في اللغة: عرش صغير لا يفضل عن مقعد القاعد، شُبه القلب به تصويراً وتخييلاً لعظمته وسعته. وأما العرش المجيد الأكبر فهو الروح الأول وصورتهما ومثالهما في الشاهد الفلك الأعظم، والثامن المحيط بالسموات السبع وما فيهنّ { ولا يؤده } أي: ولا يثقله { حِفظهما } لأنهما غير موجودين بدونه ليثقله حملهما، بل العالم المعنوي كله باطنه والصوريّ ظاهره، فلا وجود لهما إلا به وليسا غيره. { وهو العليّ } الشأن الذي لا يعلوه شيء وهو يعلو كل شيء، ويقهره بالفناء { العَظيم } الذي لا يتصوّر كنه عظمته، وكل عظمة تتصور لشيء فهي رشحة من عظمته، وكل عظيم فبنصيب من عظمته وحصة منها عظيمة. فالعظمة مطلقاً له دون غيره، بل كلها له، ليس لغيره فيها نصيب. وهي أعظم آية في القرآن لعظم مدلولها.

kusri is place of knowledge that is the heart

This is from "تفسير عرائس البيان في حقائق القرآن/ البقلي "

{ وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ } كرسيه قلب العارف وهو اوسع من السماوات والارض لانه معدن علوم الالوهية وعلم اللدنى الذى لا نهاية له ولا حد له وايضا كرسيه عالم الملكوت وهو مطاف ارواح العارفين لجلال الجبروت وايضاً كرسيه وعرشه قبلتان لاهل الحدثان ولا جهة للرحمٰن ولا يعرفه بنعت التنزيه عن التباس الكون والتصاقه الا اهل كشف العيان وقيل العرش والكرسى اظهار للقدرة لا محلا للذات وقال القاسم خاطبهم على قدره فهمهم والا فانى خطراً للاكوان عند صفاته وحلال قدرته عن التعزز بعرش او كرسى او التجلى بجنى او نسى قيل علمه وقيل الكرسى فى السماوات والارض هى منه كدرة

knowledge of malakut and glory of Jabarut

And this is from تفسير حقائق التفسير/ السلمي (ت 412 هـ)

قوله تعالى: { وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ }.

العرش والكرسى إظهارًا للقدرة لا محلاً للذات.

arsh and kursi is outer of control/determination of the place of essence (i think i might've misunderstood here)

From تفسير لطائف الإشارات / القشيري

قوله جلّ ذكره: { وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ }.

خطاب لهم على قدر فهمهم. وإلا فأي خَطَرٍ للأكوان عند صفاته؟

جلَّ قَدْرُه عن التعزز بعرش أو كرسي، والتجمل بجنٍ أو إنْسِي

Spoke to them to the decree of the power of their understanding... I'm not sure exactly what is said here but I think the same as above saying it about the control and authority but not sure


perhaps universal Islam can help out here and explain exactly what is meant..

[Samurai]

From Al-Mizan:

QUR'AN: His Chair (knowledge) extends over the heavens and the earth:

"al-Kursi" means chair. Metaphorically it sometimes is used for kingdom; thus the chair of king means the sphere of his authority and the region under his sovereignty.

The preceding sentences show that the whole universe belongs to Allah and is encompassed by His knowledge. This sentence also says that His "Chair" extends over the whole universe. It is reasonable to believe that the extension of the "Chair" refers to all-encompassing divine authority. The "Chair", thus, would mean the divine position by which the heavens and the earth are maintained, possessed, managed and known. Ultimately, the "Chair" would be a degree of divine knowledge. And extension of the chair would mean maintenance and preservation of everything that is in the heavens and in the earth, with all its characteristics; and that is why the sentence is followed by the words, "and the preservation of them both tires Him not."
......(skipped some)

al-'Ayyashi narrates in his at-Tafsir from as-Sadiq (a.s.) "Abu Dhaka said: 'O Messenger of Allah! What is the best of that which has been revealed to you?' He said: 'The verse of the "Chair". The seven heavens and the seven earths in the "Chair" are but like a ring thrown in a vast open space.' Then he said: 'And surely the excellence of al-'Arsh (the Throne) over the chair is like that of the open space over the ring.' "

The author says: as-Suyuti has quoted the first part of this tradition in ad-Durru 'l-manthur from Ibn Rahwayh (in his al-Musnad) who has narrated it from 'Awf ibn Malik from Abu Dhaka; and also he has quoted Ahmad, Ibnu 'd-Daris and al-Hakim (who said that it is correct) and al-Bayhaqi (in his Shu'abu'l-'iman) who have narrated it from Abu Dharr.

Ahmad and at-Tabarani have narrated from Abu Amamah who said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Which (verse) revealed to you is the greatest?' He said: 'Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all sub*sist; the verse of the Chair.' " (ad-Durru 'l-manthur)

The author says: as-Suyuti has also narrated the same thing through al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (in his Tarikh) from Anas from the Prophet.

In the same book he quotes ad-Darimi who has narrated from Ayfa' ibn 'Abdullah al-Kala'i that he said: "A man said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Which verse in the Book of Allah is the greatest?' He said: 'The verse of the Chair; Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist ... . ' "

The author says: This verse was named "the verse of the Chair" in the early period of Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet; and was thus described by the Prophet himself as the traditions quoted from him and the Imams of Ahlu 'l-bayt and the companions prove. That this verse was given a special name shows how much importance was attached to it. It could only be because of the highest nobility of its meaning and the elegance and grace of its style. It establishes the pristine belief of the Oneness of God (Allah is He besides Whom there is no god), and then goes on to the attribute of "standing" which is the foundation of all His names which describe His attributes of action. Then it gives details of those attributes in all small and big things and affairs of the universe, showing that whatever emanates from His authority is a part of that authority. It is because of these fine points that the traditions have called it "the greatest verse of the Qur'an". It deals in detail with various aspects of monotheism and divine authority. Of course, there are some other verses which deal with this subject, for example; Allah is He besides Whom there is no god; His are the very best names (20:8). But it lacks the details which have been given in this verse of the Chair. It is for this reason that some traditions have said that the verse of the Chair is the chief of all the verses of the Qur'an. See for the proof the tradition narrated in ad-Durru 'I-manthur from Abu Hurayrah from the Prophet. Some other traditions say: Every thing has a summit, and the summit of the Qur'an is the verse of the Chair. It has been nar*rated in at-Tafsir of al-'Ayyashi from 'Abdullah ibn Sinan from as-Sadiq (a.s.).

at-Tusi has narrated in his al-Amali, through his chains from Abu Amamah al-Bahili that he heard 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.) say: "I do not think that a man who enters into Islam on attaining wisdom, or was born in Islam (i.e., in a Muslim family) should pass a night's darkness . . . " (At this juncture Abu Amamah interrupted by asking, "and what is the meaning of a night's darkness?" 'Ali [a.s.] said: "the whole night") "until he recites this verse: Allah is He besides Whom there is no god. . . "; and he recited the complete verse up to the end: and the preservation of them both tires Him not; and He is the Most High, the Great. Then he said: "If you but knew what it is (or, as another version says, "what is in it") you would not leave it on any condition. Surely, the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.a.) said, 'I have been given the verse of the Chair from the treasure (that is) below al-'Arsh (the Throne) ; and no prophet before me was given it."' Then 'Ali (a.s.) continued: "I have not spent a single night, since I heard it from the Messenger of Allah, without reciting it . . ."

The author says: This has been narrated in ad-Durru 'I*manthur quoting 'Ubayd, Ibn Abi Shaybah, ad-Darimi, Muhammad ibn Nasr, Ibnu 'd-Darts and ad-Daylami, all from 'Ali (a.s.). There is a multitude of traditions, from both Sunni and Shiite sources, about the excellence of this verse. The tradition of the Prophet quoted in this tradition ("I have been given the verse of the Chair from below the Throne") has been narrated in ad*Durru 'l-manthur on the authority of al-Bukhari (in his at-Tarikh) and Ibnu 'd-Daris from the Prophet. It may be inferred from it that the Chair is below al- Arsh and is encompassed by it. We shall describe it later.

Zurarah said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth - whether the heavens and the earth encompass the Chair or the Chair extends over the heavens and the earth? He said: 'Verily, every thing is in the Chair.' " (al-Kafi)

The author says: In many traditions the same point has been emphasized in reply to similar questions. This question looks strange, because nobody has ever recited the verse in a way which could justify such confusion. Apparently, the questions were based not on the recital of the Qur'an but on the common understanding that the Chair was a particular body kept over the heavens or over the seventh heaven (i.e. above the material world), and from there the affairs of the material world were managed. That being the picture of the Chair in their minds, it was reasonable to suppose that the heavens and the earth encompassed the Chair because it was placed over the heavens as a wooden or iron chair is placed over a floor. And with this background it would seem more appropriate to say that the heavens and the earth encompassed the Chair. And that gave rise to the question as to why Allah, instead, said: "His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth?" A question of the same type was asked about the Arsh and the reply was given that the extension (or encompassing) was not as a material thing encompasses another material thing.

Hafs ibn al-Ghiyath said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the words of Allah: His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth. He said: 'His knowledge.' " (Ma'ani 'l-akhbar)

There is another tradition in the same book from the same Imam about this verse which says: "The heavens and the earth and whatever is between them is in the Chair, and the Throne is that knowledge which no one can measure."

The author says: These two traditions show that the Chair is one of the levels of the knowledge of Allah. Many other traditions supports this interpretation.

As will be explained later, there exists a level of knowledge which is not limited or measured. In other words, there is a world, on a higher plane than ours, whose constituents are not bound by material dimensions. They exist and at the same time are known to Allah. And that knowledge also is unlimited. God willing, we shall describe it in detail when commenting on the verse 10:61: . . . and there does not lie concealed from your Lord the weight of an atom in the earth or in the heaven, nor any thing than that nor greater, but it is in a clear book. This boundless knowledge has been referred to in the tradition of the Imam in these words, "and the Arsh is that knowledge which no one can measure." The import of the tradition is not to show the great number of the known things, because number is not unlimited and anything which is created is finite. What the tradition wants to say is that the limitations and restrictions of this material world are not found in that world. Existence, on that level, is perfect and the conditions, dimensions and distinctions of this material world are not found there. It is as Allah says: And there is not a thing but with Us are the treasures of it, and We do not send it down but in a known measure (15:21).

When those existing things are known by unlimited knowledge, that is, when they exist without any limitation attached to them, that knowledge is called al-Arsh (The Throne); and when they exist in the world of limitations and known with those limitations, that knowledge is called al-Kursi (The Chair).

At this stage we may probably say that the words, "He knows what is before them and what is behind them" allude to this plane of knowledge. What is before them (i.e. the future) and what is behind them (i.e. the past) is not what is with them (i.e. the present). It refers to a plane where past, present, and future loose their limitations of time, and are all equally present.

Hannan said: "I asked Abu 'Abdillah (a.s.) about the Throne and the Chair. He replied: 'Verily, the Throne has many diverse attributes. Allah uses in the Qur'an various adjectives to describe its various aspects. He says: the Lord of the great Throne (9:129). It means; Lord of the great kingdom or authority. And He says: The Beneficent (God) on the Throne is firm (20:5). It means that He is firm in His kingdom. And it is the knowledge of the "how" of the things. Also, the Throne, although together with it, is distinct from the Chair; because they are two of the greatest doors of the unseen, and they both are unseen. And they are together in the unseen, because the Chair is the manifest door of the un*seen, from which appears creation and from which all the things come. And the Throne is the concealed door of the unseen in which is found the knowledge of the states, conditions and exist*ence; of measure and limit; of will and intention; as well as the knowledge of words, actions and omissions, and the knowledge of the beginning and the return. Thus, the two are two gates of knowledge joined together, because the dominion of the Throne is other than the dominion of the Chair, and its (the Throne's) knowledge is more hidden than the knowledge of the Chair. That is why Allah said, "the Lord of the great Throne"; that is, its attribute is greater than that of the Chair, and both are joined in it.' " (Hannan says) "I said: 'May I be your ransom, then why did it become associated with the Chair in excellence?' He (the Imam) said: It was associated with it because the knowledge of the state and condition is found in it. And in it are found the manifest doors of al-bada' (the decree hidden from other); as well as its reality and the dimensions of its joining and separating. Therefore, they are two neighbors, one of which contains the other in itself. And by similitude are turned those who know, and so that they may offer proof for the truth of their claims. Because He chooses especially whom He pleases for His mercy, and He is the Mighty, the Powerful.' " (at-Tawhid)

The author says: The words of the tradition, "the Chair is the manifest door of the unseen", may be understood in the light of the short explanation given earlier. The level of the knowledge of measured things is nearer to our material world than infinite knowledge which has no limits. Further explanation will be given under verse 7:54: Surely your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm on the Throne. "And by similitude are turned those who know": It is an indication that the words, throne, chair and similar other expressions, are similitude which have been given to people for their understanding, and only those who have knowledge understand this.

as-Sadiq (as.) said, inter alia, in a tradition: "Every thing which Allah has created is in the receptacle of the Chair, except His Throne, because that is too great for the Chair to encompass." (al-Ihtijaj )

The author says: Its meaning may be understood from the earlier discourse. And it is in conformity with other traditions. Contrary to it there is a tradition which says that the Throne is that knowledge which Allah gave to His prophets and apostles and the Chair is that knowledge which no one was made aware of. It has been narrated by as-Saduq through Mufaddal from as-Sadiq (a.s.). But in view of all other traditions, it can only be surmised that the narrator was confused and changed the names, Throne and Chair, from their proper places. If this is not accepted then the tradition will have to be discarded like the one that is attributed to Zaynab al-'Attarah.

al-'Ayyashi narrates in his at-Tafsir from 'Ali (a.s.) that he said: “Verily the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them is created in the hollow of the Chair; and it has four angels who bear it by the order of Allah.”

The author says: as-Saduq has narrated it from ‘Ali (a. s.) through Asbagh ibn Nubatah. It is the only tradition narrated from Ahlu‘l-bayt which says that there are angels who bear the Chair. But other traditions mention such bearers only for the Throne; and it is in conformity with the Book of Allah, as He says: Those who bear the Throne and those around it celebrate the praise of their Lord . . . (40:7); and above them eight shall bear on that day the Throne of your Lord (69:17). It may be said that the Chair is somewhat joined with the Throne, as a manifest side of a thing is joined with its hidden side; and in this way the bearers of one may be called the bearers of the other.

[Samurai]

Ramadan Kareem all, I just thought I would post those views, because my explanation sucked.

At the end, Allah (swt) knows best what he intended by those words.

wa salam

[Hekmaa]

Why is thread even allowed?

Our Imams and Aa'ima did not discuss these issue like you are discussing, and you think you will get somewhere with it?

:lahawla:

[Samurai]

Why is thread even allowed?

Our Imams and Aa'ima did not discuss these issue like you are discussing, and you think you will get somewhere with it?

:lahawla:

Salam akhi

I don't think we can all reach a conclusion by discussing, but the door of pondering over God's parables and verses is praised in Quran is it not?

Mohammad (pbuh) was revealed the whole Quran it's high form in one night but it has also come down to us and parables have been thrown at us so we ponder and try to understand higher truths.

The word kursi in everyone in general signifies dominion, but what exactly is kursi, i don't know, but I am hoping to get hints and see what other brothers of faith understand from it. Sometimes we can't see a thing, we can't grasp a thing, but scenting it helps. The verse in a way is universally understood by everyone the same way, and then, it's inner has different decrees, people like Universal Islam perhaps can help people like me to understand some more of it's inner truth.

Now since I have not recieved it's message, I am asking and throwing these questions not to debate but to increase my own pondering over it so perhaps I can get closer to it's truth and perhaps I can leave a narrow view of it I might have.

Sometimes a verse has many meanings, and all the meanings given by mufasirs can be all true but it's depending on the angle you looking at it.

I don't want to debate these issues, it's ramadan and debating is not health, and I apologize for opening the discussion, but as I already did that, and wrote some confusing things, i thought I would show views of some tafsirs to nulify any confusion that what i said represents the sufi view.