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abdulhakeem
06-08-07, 09:53 PM
'Little adults' by the time they're six, can powerful drugs really halt 'precocious' puberty?

By LOIS ROGERS
6th August 2007

Puberty is an unsettling stage in anyone's life, but if it happens at an age when you are still playing with dolls, it can be very worrying indeed.

That is exactly what happened to Lucia Reed. She was just seven when her periods started, an event which distanced

Lucia from her classmates and led to unexplained medical examinations which terrified her.

'I felt completely alone and alienated, with this horrible secret,' she recalls 12 years later. 'I knew I was different from everyone else, but I didn't know what was happening.

'My mum had to tell the school, and they tried to make sure no one found out what was going on. Because of my periods, I was allowed to use a different loo from the other girls.

'Lessons like P.E. and swimming were a complete nightmare. I got teased because I had to wear a bra. So I used to pretend to have headaches and colds to get out of any sport.

'I also had to cope with terrible acne, greasy hair and huge mood swings. But I was much too embarrassed to discuss it with any of my friends. It wasn't until everyone else caught up with me at secondary school that I started to feel able to talk about it.

'My friends couldn't believe it when I finally told them - they said they felt really sorry for me.

'The scariest part was that because I looked older than I was, men would come on to me as though I was an adult, when actually I was 11.'

Doctors are increasingly worried about the number of girls - and boys - being referred to specialists because of this phenomenon of 'precocious' puberty.

The normal age at which puberty starts in both boys and girls has dropped by about two years since the 19th century, to 14 for boys and 12 for girls. This is largely due to improved nutrition - onset of puberty is believed to be triggered by physical size. Another theory is that the epidemic of obesity is to blame.

But modern social conditions may also be a contributory factor. Research suggests that children from broken homes experience earlier puberty. The stress of family breakdown apparently alters the balance of growth hormones and other chemicals in the body, speeding up a child's physical development.

Absent fathers may be another cause. American researchers have found that biological fathers send out chemical signals that inhibit their daughters' sexual maturity. Girls whose fathers had left home started their periods earlier.

Early puberty has even been linked to watching too much television. A few years ago, Italian scientists found that children who watched three hours a day produced less of the sleep hormone melatonin - low levels of the hormone play an important role in the timing of puberty.

But perhaps more worrying is the theory that it's exposure to environmental chemicals which is causing the drop in the age of puberty. These chemicals mimic the effect of hormones, disrupting the normal timing of sexual maturing.

Whatever the cause, growing numbers of children are being deprived of childhood and are turning, physically, into mini-adults at an increasingly young age. But without the emotional maturity to deal with these changes, they are vulnerable to exploitation.

In Britain, it is now estimated that up to at least one in six children under ten is affected. Indeed, there is a belief that schoolgirls as young as six are entering puberty.

In order to discover whether puberty really is arriving earlier, scientists are keeping track of 12,000 teenagers born in a 20-month period in what was the county of Avon (the group are now aged 14 to 15).

The Children Of The 90s study, as it is known, has already noted that breast development in the girls was happening at an earlier age than in previous generations.

Meanwhile, as highlighted in a forthcoming BBC radio programme, a debate is raging in the medical profession about what should be done about this trend: should powerful drugs, normally used to treat cancer, be routinely prescribed to young children to block the hormonal changes taking place in their bodies; or should the medically defined normal age range for onset of puberty simply be adjusted downwards so that the increasing number of children reaching sexual maturity while still at primary school are no longer viewed as abnormal?

Not surprisingly, the drugs industry supports the first approach.

In the past four years, drug manufacturers have alighted on this expanding market for premature puberty treatment. The hormoneblocking drugs Gonapeptyl and Decapeptyl have been licensed for use in children, although the manufacturers refuse to say how widely they are being prescribed.

A spokesman for Ferring, which makes Gonapeptyl, says the drug was licensed to treat girls who reached puberty before their ninth birthday and boys who reached puberty before the age of ten, but claimed it had not been on the market long enough to report what the take-up had been.

A different approach is being suggested by experts such as the American Academy of Pediatrics which wants to lower the age of 'normal' puberty to as young as seven.

Puberty involves huge physical, emotional and hormonal changes as the body prepares for reproduction. There is rapid growth and weight gain, the appearance of bodily hair and, for many, an unwelcome crop of acne. Girls develop breasts and begin having menstrual periods; boys begin to produce sperm and their voices become lower-pitched.

The generally accepted international standards of normal puberty for white girls were set by a study of 200 females in a British orphanage in the 1960s, which established that 12 years six months was the average age at which periods began. Similar studies of boys concluded that 14 was the average age of sexual maturity for them.

Over the centuries there has been a steady decline in the onset age for puberty. In Victorian times, it was about 15 for girls and older for boys; before that, records from Renaissance choirs show that youths of 17 and 18 were often still to hit puberty because their voices had not yet broken.

So far, there is no real agreement among doctors about whether we are just seeing a continuation of this decline in the average age at which puberty occurs, or whether it is part of a more worrying environmental trend towards children growing up too quickly.

However, most agree that if breast and pubic hair development happen before eight or nine in girls, or signs of puberty manifest themselves in boys under ten, it is 'abnormal'.

Gary Butler professor of paediatric endocrinology at Reading University, who is one of Britain's leading experts on the phenomenon of early puberty, is calling for urgent action to find out exactly how many children may be affected in order to address the growing fears of parents and teachers, who are having to deal with young children suffering the problems of teenagers.

'People are worried about this,' he says. 'There is evidence that children with precocious sexual development become sexually active earlier. It is our responsibility as the people best placed to know about it to come up with some answers.

'It is not just the social issue of having children able to reproduce at a very young age; we need to answer the question of whether early adulthood has a knock- on effect which makes them susceptible to adult health problems such as cancer and heart disease.'

He is embarking on his own study next January, which will aim to follow the development for the next five years of up to 1,000 seven-year-olds in Berkshire.

Their families will be asked to agree to regular weighing and blood tests to check for biochemical markers of puberty. They will also be asked to keep records of the children's diet.

Meanwhile, the data from the ongoing Avon study is being analysed by researchers at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia - acknowledged world experts on environmental factors which affect human hormones.

These include a group of industrial chemicals called phthalates, which are linked to early puberty and have recently been banned from a vast range of cosmetics and household products.

Sally Watson, the spokesperson for the study, says: 'It is too early to say if early puberty is really affecting a lot of children or what might be causing it, but this study will give more information than any previous investigation because we have tracked these children since their mothers were pregnant.

'We know what age the mothers started their periods, we know about their weight and diet, and we will be able to see what is inherited and what isn't.'

Another question yet to be answered is whether the development of breasts and other signs of physical maturity mean that menstruation and full fertility are also starting sooner.

There are increasing reports of very young girls getting pregnant. Most recent statistics (for 2003) show 148 girls aged 13 or younger had abortions. However, it could be that although the whole process is inexplicably starting earlier, it is taking longer to complete, and that parents are worrying unnecessarily.

Professor Peter Hindmarsh, a specialist at Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children, says that while there might be a small shift towards earlier sexual maturity, early breast development is in parallel with the rising rates of obesity in young girls.

Ieuan Hughes, professor of paediatrics at Cambridge University, agrees that many young girls who seem to be developing breasts, are simply fat. 'There is a risk of overdiagnosing it,' he says. 'We have to do tests to establish hormone levels and bone development.

'Nevertheless, the earliest age for normal puberty is down to eight in girls and nine in boys. We are not jumping in to give treatment earlier in this clinic. We tend to ask the parents if they think their child is mature enough to cope with having periods, but it's a grey area.'

This debate is of little comfort to the thousands of families struggling to cope with this unexpected complication of child-rearing.

Now A 19 year- old art student, Lucia Reed lives with her mother, Miranda, in Ladbroke Grove, West London. Miranda, 55, who works as a specialist writer, and also has a 24-year- old daughter who did not experience early puberty, acknowledges that she found the experience almost as worrying as her daughter did.

'I first noticed she was getting hair under her arms when she was about six or seven, but I suppose I was in denial about it,' says Miranda. 'I didn't really talk to her about sex because she seemed too young, even though she looked a lot older.

'By the time she was ten, men were trying to pick her up. It was a very worrying time and there was not much advice available.'

Debbie Smith, 41, a GP dispenser, from Nottingham, tells a similar story. Her daughter. who is now 12, was just eight when she reached full sexual maturity.

'We felt very alone. We weren't even told drugs to stop puberty were an option,' says Debbie. 'Although I think she coped with it all reasonably well, she was very self- conscious in P.E. and swimming classes. She's now a mini-adult, but I don't let her dress older than her age and I do keep a close eye on her.'

But neither Miranda nor Debbie would have wanted their daughters to have taken hormone-blocking drugs. 'What we really need is for someone to recognise this is a horrible thing for the affected families,' says Debbie. 'We need more support.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=473584&in_page_id=1879

Lord Summerisle
06-08-07, 09:57 PM
Okaaaaay...

I'm just wondering about the relevance and point of this post.:confused:

Redmist
06-08-07, 10:00 PM
Very worrying indeed.

abdulhakeem
06-08-07, 10:52 PM
Meet the pre-teen beauty addicts

By DIANA APPLEYARD and SADIE NICHOLAS
6th August 2007

At nine, Bethany doesn't 'feel right' without fake tan. 11-year-old Belle waxes her legs. Karolina, 10, won't leave home without scent. Harmless fun? Or proof of the insidious sexualisation of our children?:

Bethany Conheeny takes two hours to get ready each morning. A detailed inspection of her morning routine gives some indication why.

After washing her naturally wavy hair, she spritzes, sprays and straightens it with £120 designer ceramic straighteners.

If there's so much as a kink left, she starts again. She's rigorous in her cleansing, toning and moisturing routine, and before leaving the house, applies a slick of lip-gloss.

At the weekends, it takes longer. Bethany — who has £70 worth of beauty treatments each week, including a spray tan, pedicure, manicure and eyebrow wax — applies St Tropez blusher, pink eye shadow and mascara.

She prefers to use a Chanel foundation over her moisturiser, but as her 37-year-old mother Catherine, a qualified beautician, puts it, perhaps somewhat mildly: "She's a bit young for that."

She has a point. Bethany is nine years old.

Yet she's far from the only pre-teen beauty addict to seem more concerned about her make-up than her exam marks.

Take 11-year-old Belle Chapman. Last week, Belle, a naturally pretty brunette, turned to her mother Cheryl and said: "I must get my legs waxed again, they are getting so hairy."

Cheryl, a PR executive from Reigate in Surrey, says: "Her monthly waxing costs me about £30, and she regularly has her hair highlighted, which costs £60.

"I spend more on beauty treatments for her than myself. She loves having facials. I put my foot down about her using tanning beds, but she is badgering me to have the latest spray-on tan. She's even had her arms waxed."

Bethany is on the books of a Leeds modelling agency. Belle, meanwhile, has already had modelling assignments for children's clothes catalogues.

Depressingly - but somewhat predictably - Belle's role models read like a contents page for a cheap celebrity magazine.

Like many of her friends, she idolises Jordan, Victoria Beckham and Girls Aloud. And her mother says she can't see anything wrong with that.

"Belle's done a few modelling jobs, and would love to get into showbusiness," Cheryl says.

"It started when she was eight, and wanted highlights putting in her hair and her ears pierced. She said all her friends were having it done and so I let her. She's a determined girl, who likes to be thought of as cool.

"In many ways she isn't a child at all — her obsessions are clothes, hair and make-up.

"She adores pink clothes and goes out wearing tiny tops showing her tummy, skinny jeans and her Ugg boots. When I was her age I wore jeans and jumpers and enjoyed playing out. She hangs around with friends at the shops."

Cheryl is divorced and also has a 14-year-old son, Caspar. Despite paying for her little girl's waxing treatments, she does admit to being disturbed by the way her daughter dances.

"She does all this very sexy dancing, 'shaking your booty' I think it's called.

But she has no idea how sexual the moves are. I wonder what's going to be left for her when she actually becomes a teenager — where is it all headed?"

Indeed. Though it's impossible not to feel that Cheryl only has herself to blame for encouraging Belle to dress like an 18-year-old.

Surely, she and Bethany's mother Catherine could stop pandering to their daughters' unhealthy obsession with their looks and refuse to pay for it?

Catherine says: "If her nails need doing or the tan needs topping up, Bethany complains she doesn't feel right - a feeling lots of women can associate with."

Of course, the uncomfortable truth is that, like Belle, Bethany is not a woman, she's a child, one of thousands of young girls being bombarded by society's confused and damaging messages as they grow up — messages it appears are being reinforced by their mothers.

At a recent family party, Catherine recalls how a 14-year-old boy pursued her nine-year-old daughter.

"He wouldn't leave her alone all night, which made me feel very uncomfortable," says Catherine, who runs a furniture business with husband David, 42, in Huddersfield, West Yorkshire.

"But thankfully she told him she was nine and not interested in him.

"I felt a little guilty because of the part I play in Bethany looking older than she is, but all her friends are the same, and when she works hard at school I'm loath to deny her the beauty treats she loves."

Like the nymphets and faunlets in Nabokov's novel Lolita, British society, it seems, is fast breeding a generation of young girls being sexualised before their bodies have had time to develop.

It's a phenomenon once largely associated with America, where the spotlight fell on the high-pressure world of child pageants following the brutal, unsolved murder of six-year-old child model JonBenet Ramsey in 1996.

Now those same contests are being held up and down this country and children's charities are expressing concern.

Last week, it was reported that paedophiles were having online conversations about one British child pageant regular — 11-year-old Sasha Bennington.

Sasha — with her bleach blonde hair and blue eyes — was a finalist in the Miss British Isles contest last year.

A spokesman for the Online Sex Offenders Community monitoring team said: 'Sasha is now at serious risk. We feel that child pageants should be banned altogether.'

Pause for thought for Elima Jackson who spends £200 a month on beauty treatments for her ten-year-old twin daughters, Karolina and Daniela.

Both girls, who have modelled children's swimwear and dressing up costumes for Toys R Us, have expensive highlighted hair and go to a beauty salon near their home in Westgate-on-Sea in Kent each week to have manicures.

They may not be allowed to wear make-up to school, but they won't leave the house without running straighteners through their hair and spritzing themselves with Barbie perfume.

Far from being horrified that her ten-year-olds are obsessed with their looks, Elima, 30, encourages them.

She says: "I'm glad they like to look after themselves from such a young age."

She sees nothing wrong with the fact that her daughters worship Lindsay Lohan (who has just been arrested for drink-driving) and Britney Spears (who recently had a spell in rehab) because they are seen as 'pretty' and 'glamorous'.

The girls' obsession with beauty began when they were five and Daniela was chosen to model for the packaging of a light-up child's beauty box.

"It gave her a taste for it and her sister wanted to get in on the act too," Elima says. But it is the self-consciousness of these girls at an age when they should be carefree that is so alarming.

And Cheryl is all too aware of the conflicts at the heart of her daughter Belle's world.

She says: "She is conscious of her body image and is always saying things like: 'I am far too fat, my stomach is too big.'

"She's still got a little girl's body, and she thinks there is something wrong with her because she doesn't look like a woman yet.

"One day last year she came downstairs wearing a tiny mini skirt with stockings," she recalls.

"She looked like a mini prostitute, and I had to tell her to get changed. She looks 14. It's frightening, but I don't know what I can do to stop her acting and dressing like a mini adult."

Experts in America have already warned that a generation of young girls are being psychologically damaged by the relentless marketing of inappropriate 'sexy' clothing and toys.

And it's the same on this side of the Atlantic.

Last year, Tesco was forced to remove the Peekaboo pole-dancing kit from the toys and games section of its website, and a couple of years ago, Asda provoked a furore for selling inappropriately adult lingerie for children, including thongs and push-up black lace bras.

The Daily Mail columnist Bel Mooney, who lectures on the role pornography plays in society, says: "Go into town centres and you see pre-teen girls dressed as go-go dancers in mini skirts or navel-showing jeans with skimpy crop tops over their flat chests.

"Do parents have to hammer the nails in the coffin of innocence themselves?"

Set stories such as this together with the release of a UN study in February which said British children were the unhappiest and unhealthiest in the developed world, and a very worrying picture of Britain's young girls begins to emerge.

And what is especially worrying of all is the role of parents in all this and what appears to be an increasing inability to say 'no'.

Belle's mother Cheryl says: "I suppose the obvious response is that I could stop her, but the trouble is all her friends are dressing and acting like this, and she says it would make her too different."

Elima, mother of Karolina and Daniela, adds: "My partner rolls his eyes at the girls' beauty regime and says they should be concentrating on their studies.

"But I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing."

Meanwhile Catherine says her husband David is unhappy about Bethany's obsession with beauty.

"He's always telling her: 'You've got to be a child and that means you shouldn't be standing in front of the mirror putting make-up on.'

"I wouldn't let her wear heels or low-cut tops because that definitely sexualises children, but I don't worry about Bethany wearing make-up."

Gail Odell admits encouraging her 12-year-old daughter, Sarah-Jane, to be a model.
Last year she took part in the Miss Britain junior beauty competition and wore a sexy, low-cut black wrap-over evening dress and make-up.

"She absolutely loved it," says 42-year-old Gail, who runs an antique business in Warwickshire with her husband, Tom and is also mother to 18-month-old Chloe, Markus, five, Warren, 16, Lee, 17 and Craig, 20.

She says: "People might have a problem with children dressing up like this, but I think that modelling will be a very good career for her. She's very photogenic and a very pretty little girl.

"It was my idea for her to take part — we got into it after her little sister Chloe got some modelling work. People had told me that Chloe ought to model because she was such a lovely baby.

"I then looked at Sarah-Jane and realised she had potential, too. I think competitions like pre-teen pageants are fun — what harm can they do?"

Perhaps we should not be surprised that in a world where Jordan writes a novel and it shoots to the top of the best-seller list, girls are growing up to believe that looks hold the key to everything worth striving for.

At home in Woolwich, South-East London, seven-year-old Kayla Kirby- Archer loves nothing better than to have her hair styled and make-up applied. She loves the ballgown and tiara she wore when she won the first Little Miss British Isles beauty pageant last October.

"I saw the competition advertised on the internet," says her 28-year-old mother Donna, a full-time married mother of three.

"It did wonders for her confidence and she walked away with the title, a quad bike, £200, a modelling portfolio and an electric scooter.

"We're saving the money to take her shopping for outfits when she goes to have more photos taken for her portfolio soon."

According to Donna, Kayla's fascination with make-up began when she was six years old. She is already asking her mother if she can have her legs waxed.

For many, such behaviour may seem hard to fathom, but experts from the American Psychological Association point an accusing finger at toys such as Bratz dolls, voted Girls Toy of the Year in the UK in 2002, which come with eye make-up, miniskirts, fishnet stockings and feather boas, and embrace the slogan 'passion for fashion'.

Is it surprising then that young girls are receiving such mixed messages?

In reality however, it appears it's the parents who ultimately believe that beauty, success and financial security go hand in hand.

"It's their decision to model and if they didn't want to then I wouldn't force them," says Elima of her twins.

Catherine Conheeney says: "Bethany will need to be slim to be a model but I'm working hard to explain that she needs the right balance of food to make sure she's healthy. I've just entered her for a modelling competition to find the next Kate Moss."

Of course, some parents might feel that there is time enough to worry about such things.

And for those that do, the only way to fight back against pressures is surely to allow children to remain children so they can enjoy the few precious years of innocent freedom granted to them before they reach adulthood.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=473376&in_page_id=1879

Te'oma
06-08-07, 11:27 PM
precocious puberty runs in my family. My oldest daughter was menstruating at 7 and both myself and both of my sons have had our adult voices since before we were 10 along with body hair etc...it's hell for a kid to go through.
For boys though, I would say that it's a lot easier then for girls

Lord Summerisle
07-08-07, 07:22 AM
Is it just me that finds this thread disturbing and unsettling?

Why is there a discussion taking place about very young children starting puberty?

Abandoned-Mind
07-08-07, 07:43 AM
Because not all adults have the paedaphile mentality or inclination.

PiElle2
07-08-07, 09:00 AM
That's what the world is becoming.... because they spend their time on other unnecessary things instead of Allah...

ummbilal
07-08-07, 10:24 AM
precocious puberty runs in my family. My oldest daughter was menstruating at 7 and both myself and both of my sons have had our adult voices since before we were 10 along with body hair etc...it's hell for a kid to go through.
For boys though, I would say that it's a lot easier then for girls

My husbands family is the same, its hard for my 11 year old son who looks 14 to realise that he cant do the stuff his 7 year old bro does and not look foolish to other people, subhannallah.

Allhumdulilah I dont have girls, it is harder for them i think

abdulhakeem
07-08-07, 10:30 AM
My husbands family is the same, its hard for my 11 year old son who looks 14 to realise that he cant do the stuff his 7 year old bro does and not look foolish to other people, subhannallah.

Allhumdulilah I dont have girls, it is harder for them i thinki suppose the same will apply to "giant" kids. usually ppl think that tall kids are older and hence will be treated differently or other "standards" will be applied to them - even if they have not reached puberty.

junaidb
07-08-07, 01:38 PM
its all due to the silly rules n boundries that society puts on the kids.....

we need to bring these barriers down......

Islam is the answer to it all....

Te'oma
07-08-07, 05:31 PM
Is it just me that finds this thread disturbing and unsettling?

Why is there a discussion taking place about very young children starting puberty?


Because it is quickly becoming a fact of life. In some families, it's inherent but in others it can be traced to things such as artificial hormones in the food chain and the water

Te'oma
07-08-07, 05:38 PM
My husbands family is the same, its hard for my 11 year old son who looks 14 to realise that he cant do the stuff his 7 year old bro does and not look foolish to other people, subhannallah.

Allhumdulilah I dont have girls, it is harder for them i think

For guys it's cool because they tend to dominate the kids around them but for a girl, there is no other creature in creation that is more vicious to a girl then other girls. A girl that goes through precocious puberty is the subject of taunts and ridicule from her peers

Tiuchiha
07-08-07, 07:17 PM
I wonder if it is all the hormones in the meat.

Te'oma
07-08-07, 07:28 PM
I wonder if it is all the hormones in the meat.

That is a big part of it. Especially with chicken. When chicks are first hatched, on many farms they are injected with estrogen to ensure that they grow up as female. Estrogen injection in the first few days will cause male chicks to develop as females.
The beef industry uses a lot of hormones but they tend to be male hormones to increase the bulk of the animals. If you buy free range animals or certified organics then you don't have to worry so much about this.
The other factor that is setting off warning bells is the increase in levels of estrogen and chemicals that break down or simulate estrogen. This is one theory to account for the decrease in male fertility because traditional water treatment does not remove estrogen from the water.

`asiya
07-08-07, 07:37 PM
why do they always want to mess with womens hormones, the pill ( increase risk of breast cancer) H.R.T ( recently discovered an increase in risk in different types of cancers, as yet research not fully concluded.. ) and now this!

abdulhakeem
07-08-07, 07:55 PM
why do they always want to mess with womens hormones, the pill ( increase risk of breast cancer) H.R.T ( recently discovered an increase in risk in different types of cancers, as yet research not fully concluded.. ) and now this!
what about men?

What's causing the 'feminisation' of men? (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31106)

Scientists: chemicals have gender bending effect (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57619)

Te'oma
07-08-07, 08:05 PM
what about men?

What's causing the 'feminisation' of men? (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31106)

Scientists: chemicals have gender bending effect (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57619)

If these chemicals are so endemic in our environment, is it any wonder that we have an epidemic of kids growing up with gender issues? Their genitals are saying that they are boys but their brains and endocrine systems are straining towards being female

PiElle2
08-08-07, 02:03 AM
That is a big part of it. Especially with chicken. When chicks are first hatched, on many farms they are injected with estrogen to ensure that they grow up as female. Estrogen injection in the first few days will cause male chicks to develop as females.
The beef industry uses a lot of hormones but they tend to be male hormones to increase the bulk of the animals. If you buy free range animals or certified organics then you don't have to worry so much about this.
The other factor that is setting off warning bells is the increase in levels of estrogen and chemicals that break down or simulate estrogen. This is one theory to account for the decrease in male fertility because traditional water treatment does not remove estrogen from the water.

Yup, that's what I heard and they have to sell them chickens by 21 days. Whereas the cow takes longer to grow. So the hormones' still in chickens by 21 days and not so much in beef. Also the fats in red meat is also not so good whereas the fats in chicken usuallt sticks on the skin, once u remove that, then the chicken mest is not so fat... oh no... what am i going to eat for my next meal. even veggie dun have the same nutrients as they were 20 years ago because the soil is lacking in nutrients... oh no... :nervous: