When I Covered My Head, I Opened My Mind

[Consider]

Peace all,

A way to achieve peace, for women!!!! I thought it might benefit everyone....

When I Covered My Head, I Opened My Mind


By Sharrifa Carlo


As a non-Muslim living in Western society, the idea of modesty was not exactly foremost in my mind. Like all other women of my generation and mind-set, I thought such ideas were antiquated and excessive. I felt pity for the poor Muslim woman who had to "wear all that junk," or "walk around in bed - sheets" as I used to call it

I was a modern woman, educated and liberated. Little did I know the awful truth. I was more oppressed than any Muslim woman in the most culturally oppressive village in the Muslim world. I was oppressed not by an inability to choose my clothing or to choose my life-style, I was oppressed by an inability to see my society for what it really was. I was oppressed by the idea that a woman's beauty was public, and that lustful admiration was equal to respect.

It was when Allah guided me to Islam, and I put on the hijab, that I was finally able to step out of the society in which I lived and see it for what it really is. I could see how the highest paid women were those who exposed themselves to public display, like actresses, models and even strip-tease dancers. I was able to see that the relationship between men and women was unfairly stacked in the man's direction. I knew I used o dress to attract men. I tried to fool myself by saying I did it to please myself, but the painful reality was that what pleased me was when I was admired by a man I considered attractive.

I now know that there is no way for a person to know that he is dirty if he has never been clean. Similarly, I was not able to see that I was oppressed until I stepped out of the darkness of this oppressive society into the light of Islam. With that light shined on the truth, I was finally able to see the shadows that had been so obscured by my Western philosophies. It is not oppression to protect yourself and society; it is oppression to voluntarily throw yourself into the quagmire while denying it is dirty.

I am grateful to Allah that He allowed me to recognize that when I covered my head, I was taking away from people any means for judging me other than my mind, my soul and my heart. When I covered my head, I took away the incentive for exploitation based on beauty. When I covered my head, I made people respect me because they saw that I respected myself, and when I covered my head, I finally opened my mind to the truth.

Teach, Don't Preach
One of the factors which attracted me to this great deen of ours was the fact that so much of it can be understood based on logic and reason. that is why I feel that many Muslims parents do themselves a great disservice by not explaining more to their children. The old, "Because I say so...", or because you are an Arab, Pakistani, Somali, (fill in your cultural preference)..." never has worked and never will work. Human beings have a natural desire to understand what they do and why they do it, that is why Islam is such a great religion, because it satisfies all of our basic intellectual and emotional needs; it does this simply because it is the truth, and the truth is always easy to understand and defend.

When we teach our children, we should use the same sound reasoning and logic that we use to convince ourselves that a particular deed is beneficial. Thus, as we accept it, so, inshallah, will they because it will be understandable. Of course we preface every instruction with the understanding that we do what we do to please Allah and Allah only, even if we can not understand it, but alhamdulillah we have a means to understand the majority of what we do and avoid as Muslims.

For instance, we know that we don't eat pork because Allah commands us in the Glorious Quraan to avoid it. Then, we know that our beloved Prophet (Sal Allahu alayhi wa salam) commanded us to avoid it. We need to tell this to our kids, and as they grow and increase in their understanding we need to show it to them. This teaches them some important lessons. It shows them Allah's commands; it shows them the importance of the Prophet's (Sal Allahu alayhi wa salam) commands, and it shows them the basics of researching into the deen. Then, once we set this as our base, we need to explain to them the wisdom of this command. Talk about the diseases associated with eating pork. Discuss the unsanitary living/eating habits of this animal. Essentially, teach them those things which help you to avoid this sin. Teach them to use their faith and their mind in unison as tools towards achieving the ultimate goal of reaching Jannah.

[Outcider]

Covering one's head appears to be a good thing among Muslim women. As a non-religious Westerner I think that inevitably also means that your eyesight is artificially impaired.

You may say that veils or burqas, in fact, protect women from lustful men. Whether eyesight is impaired is a secondary thing.

But what about other senses? Women, for instance, can hear things which may be equally lustful, let alone feel all sorts of things. What does the Quran say about these senses. Should ear caps be used?

[Consider]

Peace,

The hijaab covers the head and chest area. The niqaab or face veil covers the face....a higly recommended action but chosen voluntarily.

Men and women are protected when women cover their head. Wome are protected from the gazes of men (all men...no matter how you are like, your thoughts may go astray) and men are protected from bad thoughts.....works both ways...

Whether you are religious or not, the feel of the need to cover is innate...you may say its going over the top, i dont....as a muslim woman I feel 100% protected....and it doesnt matter if my hearing is lessened by 0.00000000000001 decibels....or if my eye sight is hampered slightly......i like to cover, and so do the millions of muslim women everywhere...just look at turkey now......bless those women...........

What kind of situation are you going to be in if you are listening to lustful things? watching crap on T.V or movies or whatever? those things are forbidden in islam.......you shouldnt be going there..........

Peace.

[Outcider]

Thanks, Bintmasoon, for your explanations. They were not fully to my satisfaction though.

I just wonder whether the Quran mentions anything about poorer hearing, feeling, tasting etc. I'm sure that these senses are also very important, apart from eyesight, and can be equally susceptible to all sorts of lusts. Just walk on the street in congestion and somebody might accidentally touch your personal parts or you might hear something.

Did Allah consider eyesight more important than the other senses? If so, on what grounds?

[Consider]

I will choose not to comment as I dont believe you are honest.

[hen]

Bintmasood,

I understand why Muslim women wear hijab. I support the idea of modesty. I myself actually prefer to wear looser fitting clothes - I feel too shy to wear really tight clothes cuz it does make men look and I feel awkard about that. (True confession: I'd like to walk around for 1 day wearing Hijab just to see what its like :) ) But dont men ( and women) have lustful thoughts even though a woman wears hijab. I mean hijab wont deal with the heart. Its out of the heart that spring lustful thoughts etc. Its the heart that needs cleaned. I guess that is why I follow Eesa - He cleanses the heart. I will say though that I wish modesty was more a positive virtue in the West.

REspectfully,
Hen

PS Do Christian women in Muslim countries wear Hijab?

[Outcider]

Bintmasood felt: "I will choose not to comment as I dont believe you are honest."

I am as honest as one can be, but I can well imagine that these things may be difficult to comment upon.

I thought even more and came up with this idea:

There may be places where you can avoid congestion, but Islam is said to be the fastest growing religion in the world and that inevitably means that one day there will be congestion somewhere (as if there wasn't today).

Then, people would come into contact with one another. They would smell, feel and hear each other. Does Allah really say that those senses are permissible, but eyesight is not.

Didn't God provide us with senses he thought we should use? Many people believe in some sort of God...

[Consider]

hen,

It is true that the heart needs to be pure, islam recognises this, and the ways through which the heart may become impure are avoided in islam, or forbidden, i.e. the free mixing of women and men, how you should lower your gaze when walking, rememberence of allah(god) all the time and prayer five times a day....other forms of worship do aim to keep you on the straight.

Women and men may have impure thoughts even though they may be covered (men have to be covered to some extent too, though not as much as women obviously) but think about it.....which situation will these thought be more likely to come in your head....when a man sees a covered woman, dressed modestly or a woman wearing a skirt that shows her legs and a tight fitting top.....?

Im not sure about how christian christian women dress in muslims countries....hmmmm

Peace,
bintmasood

[Khawlah]

Outsider WHAT ON EARTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. I agree wholeheartedly with Bintmasood. I am very dubious of your intentions here.

[Outcider]

Khawlah doubted my intentions. Well, should I gradually feel offended myself? I make questions and comparisons, but nobody bothers to answer. I am very sorry, if I make questions which are unanswerable and even seem to offend some people.

[Unknown Author]

It is the Lustful mind that is the problem, not the beauty in which God created us.

Shall one hide their heart in fear of being hurt?

One does not evolve spiritually by hiding behind closed doors...This only reinforces that the inherent nature of man is evil....

If one says it, acts upon it, then it must be true???



Food for thought, from the Unknown Author...

[jamila]

Originally posted by Outsider
Khawlah doubted my intentions. Well, should I gradually feel offended myself? I make questions and comparisons, but nobody bothers to answer. I am very sorry, if I make questions which are unanswerable and even seem to offend some people.

A little hint. You are getting the reputation.

[Hierophant]

I think there are two very important psychological aspects of wearing head coverings. Submission, and anonymity. People who practice both, intentionally, will tell you that both of these aspects are 'extremely liberating.' People who are coerced to practice both, will tell you that it is demeaning and oppressive. So its pretty easy to see how this would affect women in either way.

It's obvious by looking at the different cultures around the world who practice this kind of dress, that sometimes it is forced, others its voluntary. I dont think any kind of study has been done to quantify this. I sure wouldnt want to guess. In Afghanistan we are seeing that some women are overjoyed with being able to shed their coverings, while others have no desire to. Both should be understood and respected.

psychological aspects of the person wearing the head covering is one thing, aspects of those who either coerce or encourage it is another.

[Outcider]

Hierophant remarked: "In Afghanistan we are seeing that some women are overjoyed with being able to shed their coverings, while others have no desire to. Both should be understood and respected."

True, but it might be good to be aware also of the fact that these headgears may cause problematic situations for all parties. A few years ago a Western European female politician went to Iran. She never used a scarf in her home country, but she was demanded to wear one during her visit.

By accepting the demand she certainly made a polite gesture towards her hosts, but that polite gesture could also have been shown by her hosts by not asking her to dress in a way that she was not used to.

I have considered it perfectly acceptable, if a Muslim chooses to wear a swimsuit in a sauna, while others are naked. What's your opinion, who should follow his or her ordinary lifestyle?

[Hierophant]

to me that is simple outsider; it is the responsibility of the guest first, to respect the host. second the host must be considerate of the guest. it's about being honourable. i think this way of thinking can be applied to situations like having your neighbor over to situations like having a foreign dignitary in your country or even a foreign student in your university.

in your example where you said it was demanded the lady wear one. the word demand gives the whole situation a negative connotation. it sounds quite rude, in which case it takes honour away from the host. if it was a request, that is another matter. not knowing the situation, it might be possible the woman was sent purposefully to illicit such a response. it is also possible the demand was made simply for posturing sake. both of these suggestions detract from the party's honour.

the question of immigrants is a little more complicated. especially when its 2nd or 3rd world immigrants who have an understandable tendency to congragate, building communities they can identify with. this is something that is typically counterproductive to the host society, but at the same time productive for the immigrant community. Personally, i would not tolerate it, because of the harm it does to the host society. 1st world immigrant communities are a different story again; as they do set themselves apart, they also are active and influential in the host society.

[Outcider]

Hierophant, I don't know exactly if the lady was demanded, requested, urged or asked (English is not my mother tongue), but in any case it was made known to her that she'd have to wear a scarf.

I just think of a situation where a Muslin lady comes to my house. I'd never even think of asking her to leave out her burqa or whatever she was wearing, but it seems that some people ask people to wear what THEY want to see. Right perhaps, although somewhat foreign to me.

[Hierophant]

Outsider;

by not asking your visitor to take off her burqa, or allowing her to do with her burqa as she wishes, you show yourself as a considerate host.

You would ask your guest to remover her shoes tho right? or what if you had a quest wearing a hat, would you ask him to remove his hat? I would, as i think it rude for ppl to wear hats or shoes in my home. But I know many who do not even think of hats as rude. Some, who let ppl wear shoes in their homes. the shoes and hats as examples are somewhat a culturally influenced example.

consideration must come from both sides. appreciation from both sides will then be reciprocated. This is a mark of civilization. When someone makes demands without consideration, they show their level of maturity. I believe this concept can be applied on individuals, groups and nations alike.

[Outcider]

Hierophant pondered whether hats and shoes should be taken off in a house.

Well, this is a complicated question. I don't think I would ask anybody, most people would take them off in any case. And the practice changes from one country to another. In one country it is perfectly normal to wear shoes inside, while in another one it is considered dirty, impolite etc.

It is interesting to note that shoes are not allowed in a mosque, while nobody takes shoes off in a church! Shoes are also worn in synagogues, aren't they?

I've visited homes and workplaces in Lebanon, but I don't remember whether shoes were taken off. Could somebody explain what the practice is in Muslim homes in different countries?

[jamila]

Just a couple of points.

Concerning shoes. This is mainly a question of culture. In fact, Islamically, shoes are allowed to be worn for prayer inside and outside the mosque. Having said that, most mosques are now carpeted, obviating the need for shoes. In fact, dragging dirt in and infesting the carpet with it would be a wee bit off when we make sajood and bury our face in it. Hence, generally speaking (in carpeted or indoor mosques) the norm is to take shoes off out of respect for other users. The same goes when entering another person's house. We don't want to make their houses (or our own) dirty. It's a matter of hygiene.

Other items of apparel are unegotiable. For example, to ask a man to strip down to swimming trunks, or even shorts, goes against the instructions of dress from on high. It is forbidden for men to show off their bodies, especially the lower part of the body, to strangers - especially in the company of women. Apparently, this rule is relaxed in the company of Mahram people, so evidence of the prophet's behaviour in dress towards family members indicate.

The same for women. Particularly in mixed company, or in a non-muslim house. A woman has to conceal all of her body from strangers (unless they are women). Some schools of thought interpret this to mean including the face, hands and feet in this. Another school of thought excepts the hands and face, as long as they are not made up (adorned with make up or jewelry). This is not a matter of custom, and you would be violating an express command of God to insist a visitor remove her shield. If you had a separate facility where women obnly were allowed, then the lady visitor is allowed to relax the shield, just like men in male company alone. But a non-muslim home/host could not be trusted not to walk in on such women together, whereas a Muslim could be so trusted. Thus, in a non-believer's house, a Muslim lady wouldn't relax her guard even if mixing with only the women folk of the host.

As for requesting, or insisting, that women visitors to a muslim country conform to its rules on dress, this is mainly for the protection of such womwn visitors. It may not offend you to have your women stared at, and harassed. But that is likely to happen if the unmarried young men who see her in that state have had any exposure to western ideology, and hence weakened iman. The most likely idea to bounce around in such youths heads is "Western women are easy lays", and the resultant crudity would be extremely insulting to the westerner female target.

I am talking about modern reality, here, not about the islamic ideal. If the ideal situation existed, it would be doubtful that many youths would be unmarried, so sexually unsatisfied, or corrupted with western ideology. Their reaction would be to look away, rather than at, a semi-nude woman, in embarassment rather than condemnation. Two ahadith spring to mind on the subject. In one, the narrator reported that the Messenger of Allah was on a journey to perform Umra with some companions when a beautiful woman without a veil approached his party to make an inquiry. His companion stared, and atared again. The messenger, saaw, turned his face away from the lady, but his companion turned to her again when released. The Prophet repeated the gesture, this time with an admonition - and so prevented a repeat of his immodest behaviour.

In another hadith, His wife, Aisha, was ateending some polythiest women, whose dresses were extremely thin and whose heads were barely covered. She told them it would be better for them if they wanted reward in Akhira from Allah to cover decently, but that if they saought the pleasure of the dunya, then to dress as they liked, and get the reward of the dunya.

Both of the hadith indicate that no one was forced to adopt the dress code of the Muslims, but rather advised to do so.

Two further points. Dignitaries from foreign countries, whisked from airport to hotel to palace to parliament, are not asked to conform to the norms of society. Why is that? because they are not going to be mixing freely in it.
In western society, muslims are invariably MORE MODEST in their dress than their hosts. Thus we 'err' on the side of non offence and modesty, and infringe no fredoms of yours. Never the less, Western societies (and some misguided Muslim governments) legislate to prevent practicing muslims from practicing their religion. In particular, they ban the use of the scarf and veil at school and university. They do not allow men to play sports in long shorts. they force women to participate in activities that will expose them physically (such as sports and swimming in mixed environments) and they force children to attend "mixed" schools (boys/girls) together.
These are contrary to the chosen religion of these people (the Muslims), yet these interventions are justified under the umbrella of forcing conformity to damaging (rather than protective) cultural norms.
jamila

[Hierophant]

jamila;
and thus my point on cultural differences thankyou :)

one point you raised jamila, that bothers me... that women are threatened if revealed ...

obviously i live in a culture where women are not concealed from head to toe. in fact as far as western culture goes, i would say women here dress pretty conservative. regardless, ogling and fondling does not go on. the reason, is the same as in your culture. its unwanted and unacceptable. but no law, or burqa is required to enforce this issue. men are simply respective of the women.

[jamila]

Originally posted by Hierophant
jamila;
and thus my point on cultural differences thankyou :)

one point you raised jamila, that bothers me... that women are threatened if revealed ...

obviously i live in a culture where women are not concealed from head to toe. in fact as far as western culture goes, i would say women here dress pretty conservative. regardless, ogling and fondling does not go on. the reason, is the same as in your culture. its unwanted and unacceptable. but no law, or burqa is required to enforce this issue. men are simply respective of the women.
It's a question of what you are used to.

Young boys constantly exposed to western television by satilite, western economic values by the products they are buying, western values by the advertizing strategies used by international companies, etc. have enough westernized concepts to fall into error. If you but noticed, the ahadeeth I mentioned point to self control (on the part of Muslims) and freedom of dress depending on one's beliefs. But young, exposed men, hanging halfway between the religious and moral upbringing and the perceived ideals of western capitalist democracy are vulnerable, and liable to get into those unhealthy fantasies which will (quite easily) break their moral resolve.

I wasn't always a Muslim. And, as a teenager, I wasn't one to hold back from discos and partying. I remember the fantasies I had about the ideal 'boy', and the dilemma of trying to hold on to my virginity and be a 'good girl', and not being ostracized as 'fridged'.

I'm afraid those days were all about 'the gropies'. I used to dread the slow songs, when on had to go into a huddle with these frantic, shy, but demanding sex obsessed boys. As one grew older, the experience of life makes one more circumspect and polite about it. But the underlying tone was still there. Even in the company of my ex husband, a party would be a potential place of warding off the manouvres of another man's (often married man's) intention 'to score', or to at least play the flirting game. The pressure was excruciating (though it was fun to see oneself as attractive enough to 'pull' the opposite sex), and I was always glad to go home.

So, I am afraid I don't agree. Ogling and fondling was not unnacceptable, and even welcome if discrete. The consequences were unwanted, but has that ever stopped such from happening from time to time? Islamic rules of conduct and dress prevent even the temptation, and leads to a far healthier moral outlook.
Jamila

[hen]

Jamila, thanks for articulating so beautifully how Islam looks at dress and modesty.

It is a topic of some relevance to me. I personally as I stated earlier dress more conservatively than some. I live in the midwest and we as a whole dress more conservatively than folks on say the west coast. Christianity too has modesty as a virtue but very few Christian women even pay attention to that anymore.

When I walk into the stores these days I am amazed at how skimpy the clothes are for teens. 3/4 of the clothes hanging on the rack are not even allowed in the kids schools cuz of dress codes. I wonder who comes up with these "fashion ideas". Frankly, Im angry about it becuase these "fashions" make sex objects out of young teens and preteens. Its gross and disturbing, especially given the problems with abuse so prevalent in society.

Hiero, I do think men ogle women who wear skimpy clothes. And this is what I dont understand. Men know that they are not supposed to oogle women and yet many women then will wear really provacative clothes which invite oogling. So I guess I feel sorry for men these days. All these temptations are shoved under their noses but they arent allowed to react. Its unnatural.

Dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with enjoying the physical beauty of the male or female form. Lets face it bare breasts sell magazines. Why is that ? Because womens breasts are a thing of beauty as is the female form with all its roundess and softness. And for women what is one of our favorite parts of the male physique? The shoulders I think because they symbolize to the woman strength and protection. ( Okay okay this is my opinion and not a scientific treatise) But from my perspective this beauty (as well as sexual union) is not to be flaunted to just anyone but rather to be enjoyed in the safety and security of marriage.

Hen

[Hierophant]

I sure want to make it clear that i'm not intending to be judgemental in anyway (altho i may be failing ;) ) I realize the different cultures affect ppls behavior in both positive and negative ways. I guess i feel the need to address the stereotype jamila expressed. Being raised in a 'western capitalist' country I think i know the culture here pretty well. My moral standards were not set by the government, or the church. They were set in my upbringing. As ultimately, I believe that is a parents responsibility, and noone else's. I see other cultures around the world and i do see how this differs. My mother (may she rest in peace) and father raised me to be a 'gentleman.' This word does seem to lack the connotations it once had. But, to blame that on western values or a capitalist economic system or a secularization of society, or a seperation of church and state is .... well ludicrous. I see a much different reason for this change. Summed up in one word, education.

Hen, your 'non-scientific treatise' on why and what we are attracted to, actually does have a very scientific basis. I'm not sure what everyone's view is on the whole creation/evolution debate. But evolutionists have a very strong argument on why human females have constantly visible mammory glands vs how other animals are cyclical in their appearance. (also other visible sexual cues like the hips and lips for example) Obviously this may contradict certain religious teachings so i wont go into it :)

Bottom line, I'm all for mutual respect. Afterall, if everyone has a common respect for everyone else, then there are much fewer problems. Some societies need that respect regulated more than others. And i think think the real differences between those societies is the education of it's youth not the national religion or political/economic system.

[Outcider]

Hen said: "So I guess I feel sorry for men these days."

Rest assured, there's no reason to feel sorry. I for one love to watch women with scant clothing - and don't women like to be admired, too? (Oh yes, you claim to be an exception, but you only claim, that doesn't change your real feelings)

You also spoke of modesty. This is a complicated thing. For instance, the skirt of a Gipsy woman can weigh 10 kg. The dress has lots of ornaments and the more there is, the less modest the garment is.

I may be totally wrong, but doesn't a Muslim woman's clothing also reflect degrees of richness. Arent even burqas made differently?

Of course, I am not against variations in clothing. And I am not a tailor either.

[jamila]

H,
Of course family upbringing is the cornerstone of good social behaviour. But it is not the only means of socialisation. You need only look at youth gang cultures to understand how peer pressure can 'educate' people in far from desirable ways. Slipping parental control, and riding pillion down to the beach to watch the boys fight (that is against the bikers) was part and parcel of our weekend 'education'. The policies and assumptions of the government in such fields as social security, education, and leisure policing also has its effect. The behavior of our parents also changed over time, especially due to 'the consumer society' mores forced upon them. Back in the sixties, jobs were plentiful and parents weren't strapped for money. nowadays, credit is a way of life. Consume now, and pay later. And boy, do they pay! Through the nose. So mauch so that both parents NEED to work to keep haed above water. So where does family upbringing go? Down the drain. The ethics learned are not the "family values" of yore, but the values of the consumer society we live in. These values are reflected in the family, and contribute to the downgrading of moral behaviour in general.

In Islam, the religion (deen) helps to maintain those pure, moral and ethical values down the ages. What equivalent body of beliefs and actions maintain the (vanishing) moral and ethical values in Western society?

Jamila

[Hierophant]

Jamila;

all of the points you made can be countered by having a better family unit. gangs, overspending, abuse of credit, fighting. all countered with a proper education by dear ol ma and pa.

thats what it all comes down to. without that proper family unit ppl are susceptable to all sorts of vices... or at least more vulnerable.

In alot of western culture i see the problem in what i call the 'daycare generation' These are the youths that literally grew up in daycares. Understaffed and underfounded daycares i might add. They dont recieve the supervision nor the instruction they would in the home. this also occurs alot in 2nd and 3rd world countries where parents are killed or die from disease.

Its really easy to blame a government or religion for your woes, its alot harder to look inside for the real causes. some ppl dont have to look inside because they've got it in a book, fine... as long as that book covers all possible situations and scenarios.

"What equivalent body of beliefs and actions maintain the (vanishing) moral and ethical values in Western society?"

family

you say the west has vanishing morals and ethical values... i say the opposite is even more true. but i wont go into this in the peace and calm forum :)
I will say this tho. over the milleniums, children have been raised for different purposes. Once upon a time children were needed to help man the farm, hunt for game, protect the home. and those needs helped, to a great extent, shape the population growth trends. In different societies around the world there are still different reasons for having however many kids at whatever frequency. In the west the only reason for having kids is to complete a loving family unit and to further the genetic line. infant mortality is at its greatest and so fewer children are needed. also, children arent needed as workers, ie on the family farm, as much. so again fewer children are needed. this flattens out the population growth curve. On the opposite end of the spectrum in some countries, children are needed as soldiers. There is a high rate of infant death, the lifespan of adults is low. so there is a greater need for children, and lots of them.

now compare how westerners feel and act towards their children and how those countries who use them as warriors or workers, act toward their children.

if ya cant take the responsibilty for the education of a child on the family level, then ya probably shouldnt be having children. but thats just my opinion :)

[jamila]

Originally posted by Hierophant
Jamila;

1. All of the points you made can be countered by having a better family unit.

2. If ya cant take the responsibilty for the education of a child on the family level, then ya probably shouldnt be having children. but thats just my opinion :)

1. This is what a good Islamic environment and education produces.

2. That is precisely what Islam teaches, and where the responsibility lies. You say that ma and pa are the repository of a good ethical upbringing. I agree absolutely.

But I am sure you think (concerning your hints on the 'warrior' argument) that Muslim families do not give their children the 'right' moral upbringing. Yes, I know I am reading between the lines, but you keep saying you don't wan't to mention what you have bottled up because this is a forum for peace and calm. So I read as best as I can.

I argue the opposite. The children who are brought up in the face of aggression against groups of Muslims the world over, are going to learn a lot more from concerned parents than in previous years where the level of aggression was low enough to substantially ignore.

During that period, Western ideology and outlook grew in muslim countries, leading to parents being concerned more for the worldly things than for the right ethics and morals. Mothers of children, instead of being concerned with bringing up children 'right', woud be concerned about their personal possessions and how much their husbands were giving them. The Husbands, instead of being concerned about training the children in religion, indulge their wives and children materially, neglect their wive's education, and encourage their children to pursue education that will land them a good job in the future.

Nowadays, this still goes on among those whose faith barely simmers. But a large number of formerly somnolent, placid people are beginning to wake up, and put the right ethics and morals back into the family.

Such deterioration and recovery is apparent in Muslim countries, and has nothing to do with family size. In Western countries, the deterioration is not recovering, at least, not yet. Instead, it seems to be accelerating. Do good old ma and pa have a chance to recover their own ethical and moral foundations, let alone pass it on to the few children they have, who largely ignore them?

Well, you may have some statistics and studies that prove there is a moral and ethical recovery, and children are more respectful and attentive to their parents in these latter years. I'm afraid my investigation into these matters became suspended as I devoted my time to Islam. So you get back to me, and explain the way families are succeeding to educate their children in the moral and ethical mores of society. maybe the deterioration that I perceive does not actually exist as a manifest reality!!?

[Hierophant]

Originally posted by jamila
I argue the opposite. The children who are brought up in the face of aggression against groups of Muslims the world over, are going to learn a lot more from concerned parents than in previous years where the level of aggression was low enough to substantially ignore.

I really can't generalize like this as i'm quite aware of muslim families who dont fit this generalization. and i'm equally aware of non-muslim families that do fit it. I would argue about what is learned from the higher levels of aggression and its benifits to society however.

During that period, Western ideology and outlook grew in muslim countries, leading to parents being concerned more for the worldly things than for the right ethics and morals. Mothers of children, instead of being concerned with bringing up children 'right', woud be concerned about their personal possessions and how much their husbands were giving them. The Husbands, instead of being concerned about training the children in religion, indulge their wives and children materially, neglect their wive's education, and encourage their children to pursue education that will land them a good job in the future.

This is the fault of the individual, not the religion, the government or anything else. the individual needs to take the brunt of the responsibility else they become an unqualified 'victim' If the governments failed their ppl during this transition, again they bare the responsibility. As you can tell, i refuse to blame others for my shortcomings and dont tolerate those that do.

Saying western ideology is evil doesnt pan out, look at standards of living for some of the proof.

[hen]

Outsider,
You said: "and don't women like to be admired, too? (Oh yes, you claim to be an exception, but you only claim, that doesn't change your real feelings) . "

Hmmmmm, interesting. Yes women like to be admired as you say. Women like to have their beauty appreciated as well as their personality, character, accomplishments, roles etc. But there is a difference in what you and I are talking about.

And where did i claim to be an exception? I'm saying modesty is a good thing , that a womans beauty (her physical assets) is to be appreciated in the safety of marriage.

Hen

[Hierophant]

Women are very beautiful and fully deserve to be appreciated in every way they desire. (well, 'cept that bmw ya want, i'm not buying it for you!) I love that they think differently than me. I need that difference of opinion (but i'm still right ;) ). It's what makes me grow as an individual the most :) oh ya, that and cheesecake.

[jamila]

H
Have we really got crossed wires, or are we arguing the same point from a slightly different angle. I don't want to contend with you for nothing.
jamila

[hen]

Jamila,
You talking to me or Hiero?

Hen

[jamila]

Originally posted by Hen
Jamila,
You talking to me or Hiero?

Hen

Sorry, Hen. The hero it is ;). Don't know why he chose a Tarot Major as his pseudonym. Any ideas?

[Hierophant]

true, it is the name of tarot card in the major arcana, but that is not the origin! ;) it comes from two ancient greek words hiero and phant

Jamila, we may have similiar ideas of right and wrong, and that might be what makes you think we have our wires crossed.

[Outcider]

Hen asked "And where did i claim to be an exception?"

No, you didn't claim, but I predicted you'd claim in yor reply. In fact, your answer was quite "acceptable".

[M.H.Mubarak]

Dear Outsider,

Returning to your questions on the other senses and how we perceive them in Islam.

Before we make our prayers, we must preform a ritual abolution, to make ourselves ready (in purity) to stand before our Creator and offer our Salat. We wash our hands, our mouths, our nostrils our face and eyes, our arms (up to the elbows), our ears, hair,and the back of our neck, and finally both our feet. We perfom this ritual act a minimum of five times each day. At each "station" we recite proscribed duas and ask forgiveness from our Rabb.

In this way we counter the natural "animalistic" tendencies of our being. If we have bad habits we try to replace them with good habits, as we are all creatures of habit.

As for hygene, there are far more meticulous habits of cleaning ourselves and keeping our bodies free from "Najasit", than our non muslim counterparts in most other cultures.

[Outcider]

M.H.Mubarak, yes, a splendid thing that Muslims take care of their hygiene by washing themselves often enough, at least partly!

It must have been hard in the desert in the ancient times, where there was almost no water.

By the way, do women also have to get rid of their odours? I just learnt that deodorants and perfumes are used?

[M.H.Mubarak]

I do not wish to be rude, but aren't you a bit obsessed with this topic?

Muslims have always used precious oils and sents, As far as Hygiene is concerned, Muslims are the only body of people upon whom it is incumbent to remove all unwanted hair from their bodies, make Ghusal (full shower or bath after any sexual discharge), and to maintain full cleanliness, throughout the day.

In Europe, however, especially in the time of the blessed Prophet Muhammand, Europeans were far from the concept of taking daily baths! It is only a matter of conjecture how often they bathed.

I hope this satisfies your inquisitiveness on this subject.

[Outcider]

Much obliged, Mubarak, for your reply. Yes, I may start to irritate somebody with my simple questions, but one more time may I comment on your information, which was: "it is incumbent to remove all unwanted hair from their bodies, make Ghusal (full shower or bath after any sexual discharge, and to maintain full cleanliness".

The latter part was a piece of news to me. Sounds very reasonable! Whether one removes all unwanted hair is not that important to me, but what is unwanted hair?

Someone told us recently that the beard should grow, some people let their hair grow too... What fashion does the Quran recommend? I'm bearded myself, but I've heard that a long beard is not always considered that clean. One would think that in the desert it was full of sand all the time.

[M.H.Mubarak]

The recomended length of the beard is one palms width from the lower lip. Unwanted hair, is the hair under the arms and in the private parts. We wash our privates with the left hand only, as we eat our food only with our right hand... which makes the punishment of amputating the right hand for theft, a most publicly humiliating penalty.

True, there is not abundant water in the desert, and there is a lot of sand, but unless you live in these regions, there is no need to sterotype them with preconceived notions.

cao

[Outcider]

M.H.Mubarak, amputation may have been a medieval practice and totally unknown in a civilized world now. Or do you know of countries where that sort of punishment is still in use? Saudi Arabia?

[AbuMubarak]

one of the reasons that this forum is not respected is that people are allowed to say anything they want about islam here, without being banned or at least having their post deleted

the sister posted an excellent article by shaifa carlo, and we have this pain-in-the-butt doing nothing but antagonizing and distracting the issue

i am not talking censor, but some of these posts are just plain rude and wreak of sarcasm

no seeking of truth, just type something to belittle islam and you can keep the post going for days

pathetic

Allahu Musta-an

[Info.]

as i see it - it looks like slanders thrown in peacefully and calmly are pretty much acceptable ofcourse only in this forum. The other forums like the general one has its own standards of slandering. :mad:

[M.H.Mubarak]

Your "simple" Questions belie a deeper sense of ignorance, and yes, perhaps malice toward Islam, and you have taken the theme of this thread beyond the pale of its message. There is wisdom in Bintmasood's refusal to entertain your simple questions. You are better off going to the forum on Islam or the General Forum to start a new thread, that is, if you are a true seeker of knowledge.

If you can not understand our response to the style of your questionings, then you greatly need some introspection on yourself and your manner of inquiry.

Iv'e arlready said more than I ought on this subject. See you on another thread.

[Outcider]

To M.H. Mubarak

Much obliged for your answer, which, however, didn't help much! Yes, I am a little ignorant and therefore I try to ask those who might be better informed.

As for this amputation thing, I have seen some hangings etc. from Saudi Arabia and wasn't it a normal routine in Afghanistan during the Talibans (http://rawasongs.fancymarketing.net/gallery.html), but are there other countries, too? Judging from your decision not to name any countries, I'm afraid there might still be.

Why should I know? Well, in today's world, one travels quite a lot, either willingly or unwillingly, and I think people should know in advance what countries should be avoided. Even though I certainly have no desire to steal anything, there is always a danger of misinterpretation, and even such an eventiality should be avoided.

PS. May I ask you about your name, are you in any way related to the Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak?

[hen]

How long does it take to perform the ritual cleansing before prayer? Do you do it at the mosque or at home. Just curious. :)
Hen

[M.H.Mubarak]

To Outsider:

In as much as you are a journalist and may travel much in your work, I can understand your apprehension. Anywhere the Shariah is enforced...but as I said in my previous post , I would rather discuss that on some other forum. Thank you. As for my name, it is related only in as much as it is the same word.

To Hen:

Wudu takes only a few minutes (3-5) to do, and is done anywhere and everywhere one makes Salat.

[jamila]

Peace, Hen.

Mubarak was a bit bare of detail, so I think I'll fill you in.
All mosques have an area to do your business and to make wudoo. There is one for men and one for women.

When you are free from any need to urinate or deficate (and thoroughly washed with water afterwards) You go to the wudoo area and, after saying "in the name of Allah" (Bismi Allah), wash your hands. Then, you clean out your mouth and nose by sucking in (from the right hand) and blowing out water (using the left hand). Once, twice or three times is according to Sunnah. This is followed by washing your face from ear to ear and hairline to chin the same number of times (1,2 or 3). Again upto 3 times, wash your arms upto and including the elbow, first the right and then the left. With the water that remains on the hands, you then wipe over your cranium from the hairline above your eyebrows to the nape of the neck, and back (one time) finishing off by cleaning the inside of your ears with the forfingers and the back of the ear with your thumbs. Now it is the turn of your feet. You should thoroughly wash your feet, including between the toes, upto three times, making sure you wash up the your lower leg upto and including your ankles. Then you say, "there are no gods worthy of being worshipped but Allah, who has no partner. His is the dominion and to him is owed praise, and he is able to do all things. And Muhammad is his slave and Messenger." (La ilaha illa Allah, Waha-duhu la shareeka lah, lahul mulk, wa lahul hamd, wa Huwa 'alaa kool-li shay'in Qadeer. Wa ana Muhamadan abdu hu wa rasoola hu).

Try doing it, and work out the timing.

One wudoo lasts until it is broken by either passing wind, urine or fecal matter, vomiting, eating camel meat, profound sleep, sexual intercourse (or even strong sexual arousal which produces 'juices' that 'come out'). The latter requires ghusl (a bath), but the first five require renewal of wudoo. as long as you keep wudoo, you can pray as many times as you still are ritually pure (have wudoo).

The beginning and duration of the period, (during which we should not even pray), or breaking water when having a baby (one should not pray until post-natal bleeding has stopped), also break wudoo, but require "Ghusl" to regain purity.

jamila :)

[M.H.Mubarak]

As-Salamu Alaikum sister Jamila:

Thank you for your input. I was a bit pressed for time this morning to go into detail, but your description was well put. Thank you.

[AbuMubarak]

Outsider, your questions/comments are tongue-in-cheek

in other words, they reek of sarcasm and do not display any sincere seeking of truth

our beloved prophet said, sarcasm is from satan

enuff said

[Outcider]

Originally posted by Raafi
Outsider, your questions/comments are tongue-in-cheek

in other words, they reek of sarcasm and do not display any sincere seeking of truth

our beloved prophet said, sarcasm is from satan

enuff said

Thank you, Raafi, for showing such an interest in my questions/comments. I am quite convinced that my simple things irritate many, but the answers I have been given have been most helpful. Perhaps they also arouse discussion, which is the purpose of this forum, isn't it?

I am sorry the prophet you mentioned didn't enjoy sarcastic humor, which you claim to see in my questions/comments.

Incidentally, if I understand right, you can get rid of me by going into the Profile section and then ticking "Add Outsider to Your Ignore List". Thank you.

[Info.]

Originally posted by Outsider


Thank you, Raafi, for showing such an interest in my questions/comments. I am quite convinced that my simple things irritate many, but the answers I have been given have been most helpful. Perhaps they also arouse discussion, which is the purpose of this forum, isn't it?

I am sorry the prophet you mentioned didn't enjoy sarcastic humor, which you claim to see in my questions/comments.

Incidentally, if I understand right, you can get rid of me by going into the Profile section and then ticking "Add Outsider to Your Ignore List". Thank you.

Phewee, man the amount of arrogance in the above post is reeking with stinch. I wonder if the mods have a hand in creating such a stinky ignoramus.

[jamila]

Originally posted by Info.


Phewee, man the amount of arrogance in the above post is reeking with stinch. I wonder if the mods have a hand in creating such a stinky ignoramus.
Assalam Alaykum,
I like your avatar, info. When was the photo taken? It almost has the look of a painting.
jamila

[Info.]

walaikum salaam sis,

I believe this picture was taken from the "recruitment video" of UBL.

I got it from [edited]


ws

[ZawjatuRaafi]

:D

[Gibran]

Originally posted by Info.
walaikum salaam sis,

I believe this picture was taken from the "recruitment video" of UBL.

I got it from [edited]
ws

Hey, didn't that guy like, uh.... murder thousands of people a while back?

But yes, that *is* a flattering picture, I'll grant. :)

Peace,

Gibran

[Ammarah]

yikes, did you see what I saw Gib. OMG I nearly had a heart attack!!
Don't know what your smiling at sister Zawjatur. Bless ya, you couldn't have checked the link, seems it wasn't what it was.:o

Ammarah

[Gibran]

Originally posted by Ammarah
yikes, did you see what I saw Gib. OMG I nearly had a heart attack!!
Don't know what your smiling at sister Zawjatur. Bless ya, you couldn't have checked the link, seems it wasn't what it was.:o

Ammarah

No, didn't see it. What'd I miss?

Peace,

Gibran

[Ammarah]

Never mind. You don't wanna know :o

Ammarah

[Gibran]

I'll bet you're right.

Peace,

Gibran

[Khan [da real!]]

Hey Out cider..................
What you trying to say that women that wear hijaab for sake of Allah[swt] and also because they fear Him are equally as bad as those who like to expose them selves in public?.
Because I dont agree with you at all on that.

I mean thats pretty rich coming from you, a Non Muslim.
It is your Westen culture which engage our Muslim Brothers
And Sisters in these sinful acts.

I think Sisters who wear Hijaabs and still commit these sins
should realise thatt they are a disgrace to our religion.
Also Brothers should resprct Sisters and not gaze wrongfully
at them, whether they wear Hijaab or not.
I mean would they like it if somone treated their mothers or sisters in that way?

The difference between drawing the attention of people in a Muslim culture
and western culture is, modesty and immodesty respectively.

The attraction towards a female without Hijaab will be towards her form,
shape and colour which motivates and enhances a male's sexual desires. That
is not the case in a female donning the Hijaab as her queer appearance will
not fulfil men's desires of seeing her form, shape and colour. At most, they
will be disgusted, thus, serving the actual purpose of Hijaab.

[Khan [da real!]]

In other words you dont know what you are on about ,
you are asking pointless questions.
You seem to sound very confused.
I suggest you go to wwwaskimam.com