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Saeed Al-Muslim
31-07-07, 03:28 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,

Please can we share here information about the Muslims in the sub-continent. With regards to the deyobandi thought/opinion. Also who is the scholar Tantawe?

Jazaak Allahu khair.

Ma'aSalaama

THE PATH 2
05-08-07, 12:03 AM
http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/index.htm

generally people who follow ulema deoband


though the label is not self approved or selfmade:)

Abandoned-Mind
05-08-07, 12:05 AM
Tantawi - the al-Azhar "Scholar".

Could be another guy..

perfectpearl
05-08-07, 12:20 AM
Tantawi - the al-Azhar "Scholar".

Could be another guy..

His a guy that studied in Azhar ...but the grand mufti of azhar is Ali Gom3a...

Ibn Sina
05-08-07, 01:51 AM
His a guy that studied in Azhar ...but the grand mufti of azhar is Ali Gom3a...

Tantawi is the Imam of al-Azhar Uni in Cairo, Egypt. Ali Goma is the grand mufti of Egypt.

muwahid
05-08-07, 07:35 AM
yes tantawe is some guy from al azhar. Didnt he say women are allowed to take off their hijab,after the french ban ?

Medievalist
05-08-07, 10:55 AM
"Deobandi"

In India - a little north of new delhi there's a town called Deoband. There a huge madrassah exists - Darul Uloom Deoband. People who are called deobandi either follow scholars who graduated from that Darul Uloom or their chain of teachers are attached to scholars attached to that madrassah.

Deobandi is just the name - in reality they are the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah Ahnaaf (hanafis) in Indo-Pak - mashaALLAH

*asiya*
05-08-07, 11:53 AM
http://darululoom-deoband.com/english/index.htm

generally people who follow ulema deoband


though the label is not self approved or selfmade:)

wow i just read some of that site page.. :S

Moreover, in this mean world anti-God and anti-prophet societies were also to be founded merely for the reason that God is invisible to them through bare eyes. God forfends! In sum, in place of the rational gallop, o perceptual race was starting and in place of the faculties of the heart and the mind the sovereignty of the eye of the forehead was to be installed. In other words, that old Judaism, which had divested the Jews of their faith, was to revive again to come before the world and it was this only that they, striking the adz at the very basis of their faith, had fixed the eye to be their deity; and they had said:

"0 Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly"(11:55). 'And we will not acknowledge the divine speech to be divine till we hear Allah's voice with our own ears'.

As though this abnegation had taken the form of a principle that a thing not seen by the eye does not exist; naturally the sequel was that sense had taken the place of intellect and perceptible things the place of rationalism. Hence, they were desirous of seeing with eyes even those spiritualities, which are things to be seen with the heart and are free from and above perceptible form and shape. Hence, it had become insufficient to explain to them a subtle and spiritual reality like religion by bringing it before them merely in a rational shirt, as long as it was not brought forth covered with the mantle of perceptible abject. Thus, even as at the beginning of this age of rationalism the respectable Imam Shah Waliyullah, through divine inspiration, carved the way of rational argument and proof for the stating of religion, at the start of this period of perceptivity."

************************************************** **********************

la howla wala qawalta illah billah

And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration,whereas he is not inspired in anything" 6:91

MMS
05-08-07, 12:08 PM
deobandis are the wahabis of pakistan lol accordng to the brelwis that is :p

*asiya*
05-08-07, 12:14 PM
deobandis are the wahabis of pakistan lol accordng to the brelwis that is :p

oh :smack: lol its a crazy world subhanAllah may Allah ta ala guide us upon the haq of the Quran wa sahih sunnah amin!

MMS
05-08-07, 12:26 PM
i dont know if its just me but it seems like the majority of people in pakistan are now brelwi :S and they dislike deobandis so much so that they do not pray beside them

i think the people of lal masjid wre deobandis and the taliban are deobandis too

*asiya*
05-08-07, 12:30 PM
i dont know if its just me but it seems like the majority of people in pakistan are now brelwi :S and they dislike deobandis so much so that they do not pray beside them

i think the people of lal masjid wre deobandis and the taliban are deobandis too

are u sure about the taliban :scratch: u.i.l is for sure not deobandi what does this word mean "deobandi" mean in english anyway :S

Abu Mus'ab
05-08-07, 12:47 PM
are u sure about the taliban :scratch: u.i.l is for sure not deobandi what does this word mean "deobandi" mean in english anyway :S
deobandi just means someone who follows the ulema of deoband, there's two main groups, deobandis and barelwis, the deobandis are called the indian wahabis by the barelwis, the term deobandi doesn't mean anything, it's not like they got any different beliefs or anything, a deobandi is someone who is hanafi in fiqh and maturidi in aqeedah, a barelwi is someone that follows the scholars of barelwiyyah, they're supposedly hanafi in fiqh and barelwi in bid'ati in aqeedah, they're the ones who say rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is made of noor and is omnipresent and all that other stuff, oh and some of them are grave worshippers.

*asiya*
05-08-07, 12:52 PM
deobandi just means someone who follows the ulema of deoband, there's two main groups, deobandis and barelwis, the deobandis are called the indian wahabis by the barelwis, the term deobandi doesn't mean anything, it's not like they got any different beliefs or anything, a deobandi is someone who is hanafi in fiqh and maturidi in aqeedah, a barelwi is someone that follows the scholars of barelwiyyah, they're supposedly hanafi in fiqh and barelwi in bid'ati in aqeedah, they're the ones who say rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is made of noor and is omnipresent and all that other stuff, oh and some of them are grave worshippers.

masha Allah :jkk: thank u, beautifully explained masha Allah.

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 02:10 PM
a barelwi is someone that follows the scholars of barelwiyyah, they're supposedly hanafi in fiqh and barelwi in bid'ati in aqeedah,

Beautifully explained?

Not really, that is a biased explanation.

Firstly the scholar i think the brother in the first post is referring to is Ashraf Ali Thanvi, one of the earliest Deobandi scholars.

The reason some Brailwi scholars call the deobandi's wahabi's is because they have praised some of the Wahabi scholars, one of the examples is the first Wahabi book written in the india sub-continent by Ismail Dhelvi called Taqwithul Iman.

To claim the Brailwi are Innovators in Aqeedah is ignorance at its hight, Many of the Arab Scholars have similer aqeedah to the Brailwis, if you are from UK then you would know the Arab Aulama mostly come to the Brailwi Masajids.

The fact of the matter is there is misunderstandings between the Deobandis and Brailwis, both sides tend to take am extreme approach to the other.

The extreme deobandis call brailwis innovators and mushriks, whilst the extreme Brailwis call deobandis as people who disrespect the prophet [peace be upon him]

The Scholars of the arab world have praised both Deobandi and Brailwi scholars and regard them both as Ahl-us-Sunnah.


they're the ones who say rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is made of noor and is omnipresent and all that other stuff, oh and some of them are grave worshippers.

My dear brother, the belief of the Prophet [peace be upon him] being created out of noor is not only a brailwi beleif, just take a look at tafseer-e-usmai, by shabir ahmad usmani a deobandi scholar and see what he says in his explanation of 'Qadh Ja Akum Minallahi Nooruw Wa Kithabummebeen"

Regarding the Prophet [peace be upon him] being omnipresent, then omnipresent would not be the most suitable, the belief is that the Prophet [peace be upon him] is present in his grave in Madinah but with Allah's will he can go where he pleases, also the belief is that the Prophet [peace be upon him] is being aware of our actions, Deobandiyyah say he is aware by being presented the actions by the angels, whilst the brailwiyyah say he is witnessing directly!

Irfan GBH
05-08-07, 02:30 PM
are u sure about the taliban :scratch: u.i.l is for sure not deobandi what does this word mean "deobandi" mean in english anyway :S

Mullah Omar and his men were all students (called "Taliban" in Pushtun) at Deobandi Madressahs along the Afghan-Pakistan border and their laws were based on fatwas from Deobandi scholars.

Medievalist
05-08-07, 03:21 PM
Asiyah: In regards to that post about Shah Waliyullah Muhaddith Dehlawi rahimahullah having inspiration - it in no way, shape or form refers to wahy - ma'aadhALLAH. It means in the sense that ALLAH Ta'ala guided him to a certain act - like if I establish a charity and loads of people benefit from it we can say that ALLAH Ta'ala inspired me to establish a charity - it doesnt mean Im recieving revelation :smack:

Alternatively it may have been through kashf or ilhaam which are spiritual states revealed to the Saints.

*asiya*
05-08-07, 03:34 PM
Alternatively it may have been through kashf or ilhaam which are spiritual states revealed to the Saints.

^ yes this is what i understood that they were referring to.

Medievalist
05-08-07, 07:06 PM
^ yes this is what i understood that they were referring to.

Even kashf and ilhaam are recognised by the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah

perfectpearl
05-08-07, 07:24 PM
deobandi just means someone who follows the ulema of deoband, there's two main groups, deobandis and barelwis, the deobandis are called the indian wahabis by the barelwis, the term deobandi doesn't mean anything, it's not like they got any different beliefs or anything, a deobandi is someone who is hanafi in fiqh and maturidi in aqeedah, a barelwi is someone that follows the scholars of barelwiyyah, they're supposedly hanafi in fiqh and barelwi in bid'ati in aqeedah, they're the ones who say rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is made of noor and is omnipresent and all that other stuff, oh and some of them are grave worshippers.

So the "deobandis" are practically atba3 el salaf? :confused:

And the "barelwiyyah" are the bid3ees of their society? :confused:

:rubeyes:

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 07:48 PM
If you regard the Brailwis as Biddatis then you will have to say the same about the majority of the sunnis from across the world, including the sunnis of the arab world!

Irfan GBH
05-08-07, 07:54 PM
If you regard the Brailwis as Biddatis then you will have to say the same about the majority of the sunnis from across the world, including the sunnis of the arab world!


I don't know of any evidence to support that most sunnis commit bid'ah. But that's not relevant. Most of the world isn't Muslim, but yet Islam is al-haq.

Saeed Al-Muslim
05-08-07, 07:59 PM
So the "deobandis" are practically atba3 el salaf? :confused:Deobandi are not Salafi, they are Madhabi, if there is such a term. To expand they follow a particular Madhab, and from what I gather the Hanaafi and the Shaafi Madhabs are popular amongst them. This may be just because those two Madhab can be found in that particular region.


And the "barelwiyyah" are the bid3ees of their society? :confused:The large majority of Brelvi's commit lots of a Bidah, and even at times shirk.

Ma'aSalaama

Abu Mus'ab
05-08-07, 08:05 PM
So the "deobandis" are practically atba3 el salaf? :confused:

And the "barelwiyyah" are the bid3ees of their society? :confused:

:rubeyes:
Yep that's more or less it :up:

Medievalist
05-08-07, 09:18 PM
Deobandi are not Salafi, they are Madhabi, if there is such a term. To expand they follow a particular Madhab, and from what I gather the Hanaafi and the Shaafi Madhabs are popular amongst them. This may be just because those two Madhab can be found in that particular region.


The term for us is muqallid - ones who make taqleed.

Normally we refer to the salafiyyah as ghayr muqallid - but even amongst their orthodox ulama they make taqleed of a particular madhab (mostly they are hanaabilah - of the madhab of Imam Ahmad) but they are not so strict on taqleed as we are. Having said that many of our big Ulama also were practiced ijtihaad in some aspects - eg one of the Shah Muhaddith Dehlawis (cant remember which) rahimahullah did not stick strictly to his madhab due to his immense knowledge.

As far as I am aware - deobandis are hanafi because that is the madhab in indo-pak. True today we have some somali shafi'ee deobandis - :D:D subhanALLAH.

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 09:27 PM
I don't know of any evidence to support that most sunnis commit bid'ah. But that's not relevant. Most of the world isn't Muslim, but yet Islam is al-haq.

The Prophet [Peace be upon him] has told us in various narrations to follow the masses, the Jamaath, meaning follow the majority of the muslims.

The majority of the people in the world is not relevant, what is relevant is the majority among the muslims!

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!" [Ibne Majah]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [ Imam Ahmed]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah's mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell." [ Tirmizi]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam." [Abu Daud, Imam Ahmed]

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 09:30 PM
Deobandi are not Salafi, they are Madhabi, if there is such a term. To expand they follow a particular Madhab, and from what I gather the Hanaafi and the Shaafi Madhabs are popular amongst them. This may be just because those two Madhab can be found in that particular region.

The large majority of Brelvi's commit lots of a Bidah, and even at times shirk.

Ma'aSalaama

99% if not all Deobandis are Hanafi!

Its not at all surprising that a Salafi would claim the Brailwis are committing biddah and shirk, thats the only 2 things most salafis know of!

Medievalist
05-08-07, 09:31 PM
Perhaps people should study the ahadeeth in totality along with their sharh rather than interpret as per their own opinions. There are other ahadeeth which indicate that the people on truth will alway remain small, that imaan will return to Madinah (and in another narration Makkah/Hijaaz) just as a snake returns to its hole.

ALLAH Ta'ala knows best, We rely on the Book, the Sunnah, the Sahaabah Karaam and the Aqwaal of the True Ulama.

perfectpearl
05-08-07, 09:41 PM
99% if not all Deobandis are Hanafi!

Its not at all surprising that a Salafi would claim the Brailwis are committing biddah and shirk, thats the only 2 things most salafis know of!

As far as I am aware... Praying on graves ....is a BIG MAJOR SIN. Its good that they know their right from wrong.

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 10:16 PM
As far as I am aware... Praying on graves ....is a BIG MAJOR SIN. Its good that they know their right from wrong.

Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Brailwi clearly stated in his writings that it is Haram to pray at graves!

Sunni Student
05-08-07, 10:19 PM
Perhaps people should study the ahadeeth in totality along with their sharh rather than interpret as per their own opinions. There are other ahadeeth which indicate that the people on truth will alway remain small, that imaan will return to Madinah (and in another narration Makkah/Hijaaz) just as a snake returns to its hole.

ALLAH Ta'ala knows best, We rely on the Book, the Sunnah, the Sahaabah Karaam and the Aqwaal of the True Ulama.

Many of those Hadith seem to be very clear, but if you think this is not the case then may be you should look up the commentary on the hadiths mentioned, or even the opinions of the True scholars.

Irfan GBH
05-08-07, 11:06 PM
The Prophet [Peace be upon him] has told us in various narrations to follow the masses, the Jamaath, meaning follow the majority of the muslims.




Barelvis are definatly not the majority now are they? They probably number around 200 million. No other groups of Muslims share most of the deviencies of barelvis so you can't say other sunnis are like barelvis either.

Deobandis are similar in number to Barelvis, plus you've got many non-deobandis who shun grave worship and acts of bid'ah so collective these people outnumber barelvis.

Therefore your claims that barelvis are the main jama'at, destined for paradise, is evidently false.

Irfan GBH
05-08-07, 11:08 PM
Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Brailwi clearly stated in his writings that it is Haram to pray at graves!

Never heard that one before.

He did however write a fatwa declaring it haraam to fight jihaad against the British and he did request in his will that biriyani and rice pudding be taken to his grave 2-3 times a week.

Saeed Al-Muslim
05-08-07, 11:14 PM
The term for us is muqallid - ones who make taqleed.

Normally we refer to the salafiyyah as ghayr muqallid - but even amongst their orthodox ulama they make taqleed of a particular madhab (mostly they are hanaabilah - of the madhab of Imam Ahmad) but they are not so strict on taqleed as we are. Having said that many of our big Ulama also were practiced ijtihaad in some aspects - eg one of the Shah Muhaddith Dehlawis (cant remember which) rahimahullah did not stick strictly to his madhab due to his immense knowledge.

As far as I am aware - deobandis are hanafi because that is the madhab in indo-pak. True today we have some somali shafi'ee deobandis - :D:D subhanALLAH.
Akhi you are right, Jazaak Allahu khair for correcting me. The term had slipped my mind. Although I do not agree that 99% of people from that region are of the Hanafi Madhab, if I was going to take a rough estimate I'd say about 85%, and even here most don't even know why they of the Hanaafi Madhab. Even worse some claim to be of the Hanaafi Madhab but go completely against it. Listen to the lectures from Imaam Makki, and Insha’Allah you’ll understand what I mean.

Ma'aSalaama

Abandoned-Mind
05-08-07, 11:18 PM
Never heard that one before.

He did however write a fatwa declaring it haraam to fight jihaad against the British and he did request in his will that biriyani and rice pudding be taken to his grave 2-3 times a week.

LOL @ Biryani and Rice Pudding.

Abdulhameed
06-08-07, 12:47 AM
Never heard that one before.

He did however write a fatwa declaring it haraam to fight jihaad against the British and he did request in his will that biriyani and rice pudding be taken to his grave 2-3 times a week.

lol

shamson
06-08-07, 01:23 AM
Beautifully explained?

Not really, that is a biased explanation.

Firstly the scholar i think the brother in the first post is referring to is Ashraf Ali Thanvi, one of the earliest Deobandi scholars.

The reason some Brailwi scholars call the deobandi's wahabi's is because they have praised some of the Wahabi scholars, one of the examples is the first Wahabi book written in the india sub-continent by Ismail Dhelvi called Taqwithul Iman.

To claim the Brailwi are Innovators in Aqeedah is ignorance at its hight, Many of the Arab Scholars have similer aqeedah to the Brailwis, if you are from UK then you would know the Arab Aulama mostly come to the Brailwi Masajids.

The fact of the matter is there is misunderstandings between the Deobandis and Brailwis, both sides tend to take am extreme approach to the other.

The extreme deobandis call brailwis innovators and mushriks, whilst the extreme Brailwis call deobandis as people who disrespect the prophet [peace be upon him]

The Scholars of the arab world have praised both Deobandi and Brailwi scholars and regard them both as Ahl-us-Sunnah.



My dear brother, the belief of the Prophet [peace be upon him] being created out of noor is not only a brailwi beleif, just take a look at tafseer-e-usmai, by shabir ahmad usmani a deobandi scholar and see what he says in his explanation of 'Qadh Ja Akum Minallahi Nooruw Wa Kithabummebeen"

Regarding the Prophet [peace be upon him] being omnipresent, then omnipresent would not be the most suitable, the belief is that the Prophet [peace be upon him] is present in his grave in Madinah but with Allah's will he can go where he pleases, also the belief is that the Prophet [peace be upon him] is being aware of our actions, Deobandiyyah say he is aware by being presented the actions by the angels, whilst the brailwiyyah say he is witnessing directly!

subhanAllah do you have any proof that the saudi scholars gave talks etc. at brelavi/deobandi masjids in the Uk. This is the first I have heard of this?

shamson
06-08-07, 01:47 AM
The Prophet [Peace be upon him] has told us in various narrations to follow the masses, the Jamaath, meaning follow the majority of the muslims.

The majority of the people in the world is not relevant, what is relevant is the majority among the muslims!

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmizi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-Azam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!" [Ibne Majah]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [ Imam Ahmed]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah's mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell." [ Tirmizi]

The holy Prophet(Sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said " He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam." [Abu Daud, Imam Ahmed]



What on earth are you talking about subhanAllah a jamaah! All groups are a jammah within themselves. How is a layman supposed to know who the majority are? The Prophet SAW said his Jamaah is those who are upon the Quran and SUNNAH you can not say that all these groups (no matter how big an organisation) are ASWJ if they commit kufr or bidah in their actions/beliefs etc. coz then how can they be upon what the Prophet SAW and his companions were upon? The Prophet SAW said that a time will come when the people of sunnah are few and this is the time it has been 'the time' for a very long time!

And this rubbish about kashf and seeing the unseen by religious people is such rubbish when you read the arabic in the quran about Allah reveals the unseen to whom among his messengers that he chooses (or something along those lines, Plz forgive for not being spot on) in the arabic is says 'from among his RASOOLS' so are you now going to say that these pirs are rasools?

Also those of you who believe that the unseen is something good and religious people can do it plz, plz can you show me proof from SAHIH HADITH where ANY of the companions were able to do this? Abu Bakr, uthman, Umar or Ali RHAH Coz after the Prophet SAW his compaions were the best from among the ummah.

Does Anyone here have proof from eith Bukhari,muslim, abu dawood, an nisa, tirmidi etc. These books are universally known and accepted so plz plz show me proof of where the companions (who Allah granted Jannah) were able to perform kashf/know the unseen in any matter!!!

*asiya*
06-08-07, 11:03 AM
Even kashf and ilhaam are recognised by the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah

wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.

Saeed Al-Muslim
06-08-07, 11:20 AM
Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.No, these are Brelvi's. The Deobandi's are Muslims from Dar ul-Loom and Tableeque Jamaa'. As far as I'm aware their scholars are on the Haq, but the large majority of their stupids (i.e. their followers) have not a clue what they are talking about. That is why I would advise not listen to anything they say, except "Akhi, come to the masjid." I am aware that I am being harsh, but we are in dangerous times, and we must protect our deen, otherwise who knows how we will wake up when we are resurrected.

Ma'aSalaama

*asiya*
06-08-07, 11:53 AM
No, these are Brelvi's. The Deobandi's are Muslims from Dar ul-Loom and Tableeque Jamaa'. As far as I'm aware their scholars are on the Haq, but the large majority of their stupids (i.e. their followers) have not a clue what they are talking about. That is why I would advise not listen to anything they say, except "Akhi, come to the masjid." I am aware that I am being harsh, but we are in dangerous times, and we must protect our deen, otherwise who knows how we will wake up when we are resurrected.

Ma'aSalaama


:wswrwb: sah subhanAllah Alhamdulillah having come through christianity, buddisim, and hinduisim before i became muslim, and having been taught by shaikh who are teaching only by the Quran and sahih sunnah Alhamdulillah, it is very easy to see what are additions to the deen by men who think they have knowledge of the unseen audu billah, as we know the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said "every addition to the religion of Al Islam will lead to the hellfire."As Allah ta ala has said "The truth is clear from falsehood"

In much of these teachings that have come from asia, there is essences of hinduism clearly there. especially in reagards to the way they view their shaikh audu billah, its just as the hindus put their "spiritual masters" on a platform and practically worship them audu billah. When all praises is due to Allah ta ala alone, and no man on this earth can take an iota of credit for what Allah ta ala has taught him, for Allah ta ala alone taught men what they did not know. No one after the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam who did not speak from his own desires as Allah ta ala states in the Quran, no one else has "special knowledge" that others dont have, because the knowledge of al islam is there and open for all of mankind to learn and understand. This is the beauty of Al Islam, it is open for all. And all of us have aduty to seek out knowledge of our religion from the authentic sources.

This is why it is so important to know the Quran and hadith well insha Allah, because there is no an issue in life that is not covered in these two sources. And we are not in need of going to anyone else for new "inpirations" about how to be a muslim and how to worship Allah, Allah ta ala has already perfected our religion for us. As the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said in his last sermon, i leave behind two things that if you stick fast to them you will never go astray the book of Allah, (Al Quran) and my sunnah.

ImaanSeeker
06-08-07, 12:34 PM
wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.

Being inspired to do something is different from actually receiving inspiration.

I think you are confusing kashf and ilhaam with wahi. They are not the same thing.

*asiya*
06-08-07, 12:45 PM
Being inspired to do something is different from actually receiving inspiration.

I think you are confusing kashf and ilhaam with wahi. They are not the same thing.

Moreover, in this mean world anti-God and anti-prophet societies were also to be founded merely for the reason that God is invisible to them through bare eyes. God forfends! In sum, in place of the rational gallop, o perceptual race was starting and in place of the faculties of the heart and the mind the sovereignty of the eye of the forehead was to be installed. In other words, that old Judaism, which had divested the Jews of their faith, was to revive again to come before the world and it was this only that they, striking the adz at the very basis of their faith, had fixed the eye to be their deity; and they had said:

"0 Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly"(11:55). 'And we will not acknowledge the divine speech to be divine till we hear Allah's voice with our own ears'.

As though this abnegation had taken the form of a principle that a thing not seen by the eye does not exist; naturally the sequel was that sense had taken the place of intellect and perceptible things the place of rationalism. Hence, they were desirous of seeing with eyes even those spiritualities, which are things to be seen with the heart and are free from and above perceptible form and shape. Hence, it had become insufficient to explain to them a subtle and spiritual reality like religion by bringing it before them merely in a rational shirt, as long as it was not brought forth covered with the mantle of perceptible abject. Thus, even as at the beginning of this age of rationalism the respectable Imam Shah Waliyullah, through divine inspiration, carved the way of rational argument and proof for the stating of religion, at the start of this period of perceptivity."

from the deobandi site on page one :up:

i know what these terms mean and they have no basis in the Quran and sahih sunnah, this kashf means they beleive that their shaikhs ( or saintly people as they call them) recieve/d divine guidance or messages inpired into their hearts. they claim these are from Allah audu billah.

Ilhaam is similar but to a lesser degree, neither of these has any basis in Islam, this is purely from mushrik traditions, and as i said very easy for me to see having come through those schools of teachings , there is much wisdom to be had in the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam who said That "he washed his hands of any muslim who lived within the firelight of the mushriks" for we see how some of the muslims have taken their beliefs, and tried to apply them in al Islam, audu billah.

Irfan GBH
06-08-07, 12:55 PM
subhanAllah do you have any proof that the saudi scholars gave talks etc. at brelavi/deobandi masjids in the Uk. This is the first I have heard of this?

Alot of arab scholars seem unaware of barelwi beliefs.


wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.

Bear in mind you're readng the English translation. It's quiet possible there are a few inaccurate translations as I've never heard such things before. Yes deobandi scholars do consider certain sufi practices OK but thats all. The core beliefs are very similar to the salafis of the arabian peninsula. Routing out bid'ah and bringing people back to Islam, jihaad to protect Islam, etc.

Saeed Al-Muslim
06-08-07, 12:56 PM
from the deobandi site on page one :up:

i know what these terms mean and they have no basis in the Quran and sahih sunnah, this kashf means they beleive that their shaikhs ( or saintly people as they call them) recieve/d divine guidance or messages inpired into their hearts. they claim these are from Allah audu billah.

Ilhaam is similar but to a lesser degree, neither of these has any basis in Islam, this is purely from mushrik traditions, and as i said very easy for me to see having come through those schools of teachings , there is much wisdom to be had in the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam who said That "he washed his hands of any muslim who lived within the firelight of the mushriks" for we see how some of the muslims have taken their beliefs, and tried to apply them in al Islam, audu billah.This certainly is a thoughtful post. In the past I have dismissed them, as not catering for me. But it seems I hadn't realised or understand their core beliefs. Jazaak Allahu khair for pointing this out. If this is true, even if it is inspired by anything other than Wahi, then truly it is a dangerous president, and one that should be rejected outright, because only Allaah (swT) has the knowledge of the ghaib/unseen, and only He knows what’s inside the hearts of men. These people who claim to be Awliah/friends of Allaah (swT), saints and the likes only pilfer such a title in wishful thinking.

Ma'aSalaama

Saeed Al-Muslim
06-08-07, 01:00 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Alot of arab scholars seem unaware of barelwi beliefs.Not all Arab scholars are on the Haq/truth. Not withstanding that Islam is not a monopoly for the Arab scholars.

Ma'aSalaama

Nusayba
06-08-07, 01:04 PM
:jkk: sis Asiya

ImaanSeeker
06-08-07, 01:15 PM
Shaykhul Islam Allaamah Taqi-u-ddin Hafiz Ahmad ibn Taymiyah (RA). In his famous ‘Fataawa ibn Taymiyah’ he states, ‘miracles (of the Awliyaa) sometimes occur by a person hearing something that others can’t, sometimes a person sees something that others don’t whilst awake or in a dream, sometimes a person is given knowledge of something which others don’t know about through Wahy (revelation) or Ilhaam (inspiration)… this this is called Kashf and Mushahadaat..’ (Fataawa ibn Taymiyah vol.11 pg.173; Darul Wafaa)

shamson
06-08-07, 01:15 PM
wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.


subhanallah they all claim to have divine inspiration etc. My husband's sufi cousin was trying to 'convert' my hubby into a sufi and he gave this website as part of his 'proof package' to back his argument. When we read it we were in shock!!!!

www.sheiknazim.com - This is the guy that is also on the front page of their other website www.sufilive.com

So much batil junk, talking to the dead pirs etc. there was just soooo much subhanAllah after we read the whole thing it just helped us clarify that they are indeed upon misguidance.

shamson
06-08-07, 01:23 PM
Shaykhul Islam Allaamah Taqi-u-ddin Hafiz Ahmad ibn Taymiyah (RA). In his famous ‘Fataawa ibn Taymiyah’ he states, ‘miracles (of the Awliyaa) sometimes occur by a person hearing something that others can’t, sometimes a person sees something that others don’t whilst awake or in a dream, sometimes a person is given knowledge of something which others don’t know about through Wahy (revelation) or Ilhaam (inspiration)… this this is called Kashf and Mushahadaat..’ (Fataawa ibn Taymiyah vol.11 pg.173; Darul Wafaa)


Relelation stopped with the Prophet SAW. The end. what you have stated above i have seen this on a sufi website and they use this to justify why their people can talk to the dead see dreams about things happening in the future etc. but this goes against what Allah states in the quran in surah al naml. The unseen is with Allah and he reveals it to only his rasools!!!! The Prophet SAW was the last RASOOL.

If this is something so wonderful why were none of the 10 companions that were granted jannah able to do this? Why could the battle of camel not have been stopped? This was a major fight among the muslims themselves etc. Did you read this direct from ibn taymiyyah's book? or some sufi website where they have batil junk posted to justify their beliefs/actions.

shamson
06-08-07, 01:26 PM
really check out this website

www.sheiknazim.com

Ibn Khattab
06-08-07, 01:30 PM
is it me or does that sheikh nazim guy just look scary.

ImaanSeeker
06-08-07, 01:35 PM
Relelation stopped with the Prophet SAW. The end. what you have stated above i have seen this on a sufi website and they use this to justify why their people can talk to the dead see dreams about things happening in the future etc. but this goes against what Allah states in the quran in surah al naml. The unseen is with Allah and he reveals it to only his rasools!!!! The Prophet SAW was the last RASOOL.

If this is something so wonderful why were none of the 10 companions that were granted jannah able to do this? Why could the battle of camel not have been stopped? This was a major fight among the muslims themselves etc. Did you read this direct from ibn taymiyyah's book? or some sufi website where they have batil junk posted to justify their beliefs/actions.

Abdullah ibn Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that once on the day of Jumu’ah, whilst Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) was delivering the Khutbah, he (swerved off the topic and) suddenly said, ‘O Saariya! Hasten towards the mountain.’ He said this three times and then continued with the Khutbah. The people were confused and astonished at this. Later on, when he was asked as to what had transpired, he said, ‘I could see that the Muslim army was about to be defeated and at that time, they were walking past a mountain. If they had passed the mountain, the enemy would have defeated them but if they took to the mountain, they would have had one side covered and only one way to fight. So, I called out to the Ameer (leader) of the army (Saaiya) that they should take the mountain. After one month, the army returned victorious explaining that they had heard the words of Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) on that very same day clearly. In other narrations, Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) is reported to have said, ‘I saw the army fighting near the mountain…’ Another narration mentioned that the distance between Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) and the army was the distance of one month’s journey.’ (Dalaailun nubuwwah of Abu Nu’aym vol.2 pg.579; Darun-Nafaais)

Hafiz ibn Hajar (RA) and Hafiz ibn Katheer (RA) have regarded these narrations as authentic refer al-Isaabah vol.3 pg.5

The abovementioned incident is a clear proof of Kashf. It explicitly shows that Allah Ta’ala had blessed Hadhrat Umar (Radhiallaahu Anhu) with the power of Kashf through which he was able to see and visualise the battlefield from a distance as far as a month’s journey.

Abandoned-Mind
06-08-07, 01:43 PM
Shaykhul Islam Allaamah Taqi-u-ddin Hafiz Ahmad ibn Taymiyah (RA). In his famous ‘Fataawa ibn Taymiyah’ he states, ‘miracles (of the Awliyaa) sometimes occur by a person hearing something that others can’t, sometimes a person sees something that others don’t whilst awake or in a dream, sometimes a person is given knowledge of something which others don’t know about through Wahy (revelation) or Ilhaam (inspiration)… this this is called Kashf and Mushahadaat..’ (Fataawa ibn Taymiyah vol.11 pg.173; Darul Wafaa)

Could you get a ref from Ibn Taymiyyah's own work for this?

Sunni Student
06-08-07, 05:43 PM
Barelvis are definatly not the majority now are they? They probably number around 200 million.

Brother you are jumping to conclusions here, firstly i never claimed Brailwi is the largest group, for i do not accept that Brailwism as a sect, in fact neither is deobandism.

Imam Ahmad Rida Khan did not claim to introduce a new sect of any sort, if you read his fatawas he quotes earlier classical scholars, i respect Imam Jalaladdin Suyyuti as much as i respect Imam Ahmad Rida Khan.

Many of those who you regard as Brailwi do not even label themselves as Brailwi, Shaikh Tahir Ul Qadri for one!


No other groups of Muslims share most of the deviancies of barelvis so you can't say other sunnis are like barelvis either.

Call them deviances if you wish, the reality is the Scholars who you call Brailwis are very very smiler to many many Sunni Scholars around the world..

So can you name a few of these deviances? and lets see if these are actually deviances?

Let me have a go, grave worship? The scholars have clearly said this is haram!

As for innovation? Bar the Deobandis and Salafis almost the rest of the Muslim world celebrate Mawlid!


Deobandis are similar in number to Barelvis, plus you've got many non-deobandis who shun grave worship and acts of bid'ah so collective these people outnumber barelvis.

Grave worship is shunned by the Brailwis Aulama to, yes there are some ignorant among the public but that does not reflect the aqeedah of the whole bunch!

So are the sunnis of the rest of the world against Mawlid?

Are the sunnis of the rest of the world against Isale-sawab for Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani?

Are the sunnis of the rest of the world against the act of kissing the thumbs out of love for the prophet when hearing his name? no! even Mufti Taqi Uthmani and Mufti Ibn Adam Al Kawthari have said it is permissable!

Open your eyes my brother!

Read my post above, you are doing just what the extremists on both the brailwis and deobandis do and thats make baseless claims!


Therefore your claims that barelvis are the main jama'at, destined for paradise, is evidently false.

I did not claim this!

Sunni Student
06-08-07, 05:48 PM
Never heard that one before.

He did however write a fatwa declaring it haraam to fight jihaad against the British and he did request in his will that biriyani and rice pudding be taken to his grave 2-3 times a week.

May Allah Guide you! Believe these baseless rumors if you wish, accusing scholars of things you are not sure of is indeed not the act of a God fearing person.

Please present your Fatwa, in the meanwhile you may wish to read and check this up, Allah knows best if there is any truth in it!

Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani has stated in "Makalamatus Sadrain". He said, addressing Maulana Hifzur Rahman in the same function at Calcutta: "Please see, Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi was our acclaimed dignitary, in this connection we heard some people saying that he was being given an allowance of Six Hundred Rupees per month, by the British." (Makalamatus Sadrain, pp/11, Published at Deoband)

"The brother of Maulana Thanvi Marhoom remained a senior officer in the C.I.D Department till his last day. His name was Mazher Ali. Whatever he may have done is not surprising." (Maktoobat-e-Shaikhul Islam, Book ii, pp/299)

Abu Mus'ab
06-08-07, 06:25 PM
May Allah Guide you! Believe these baseless rumors if you wish, accusing scholars of things you are not sure of is indeed not the act of a God fearing person.

Please present your Fatwa, in the meanwhile you may wish to read and check this up, Allah knows best if there is any truth in it!

Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani has stated in "Makalamatus Sadrain". He said, addressing Maulana Hifzur Rahman in the same function at Calcutta: "Please see, Hazrat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi was our acclaimed dignitary, in this connection we heard some people saying that he was being given an allowance of Six Hundred Rupees per month, by the British." (Makalamatus Sadrain, pp/11, Published at Deoband)

"The brother of Maulana Thanvi Marhoom remained a senior officer in the C.I.D Department till his last day. His name was Mazher Ali. Whatever he may have done is not surprising." (Maktoobat-e-Shaikhul Islam, Book ii, pp/299)

You are so blatantly a barelwi :rolleyes:

And you want to tell him that he's believing rumours and then you go and post worse fabricated rumours?

Sunni Student
06-08-07, 06:34 PM
You are so blatantly a barelwi :rolleyes:

And you want to tell him that he's believing rumours and then you go and post worse fabricated rumours?

My point being just because we read something doesnt mean we should accept it, and before you rule out what i said above as a rumor, it is allegedly cited from Deobandi books, at least i gave a reference from the deobandi books!

and if you read above i did say Allah knows best if there is any truth in it! which clearly means i didn't claim it was the truth

So in what way was my so called rumors worse? I just stated a few quotes, unlike brother irfan who just stated a statement without any evidence what so ever!

As for me being a brailwi, then my beliefs are mostly the same as the Brailwi Scholars, but then again they are mostly the same as the likes of..

Shaikh Muhammad Al Yaqubi
Shaikh Nazim Al Haqqani
Shaikh Gibrail Haddad
Shaikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller etc...

Why should call myself Brailwi? Am i from Brelwi Sharif? Do i do Taqleed on the Aqeedah of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Brailwi? No and No!

Abu Mus'ab
06-08-07, 08:00 PM
My point being just because we read something doesnt mean we should accept it, and before you rule out what i said above as a rumor, it is allegedly cited from Deobandi books, at least i gave a reference from the deobandi books!

and if you read above i did say Allah knows best if there is any truth in it! which clearly means i didn't claim it was the truth

So in what way was my so called rumors worse? I just stated a few quotes, unlike brother irfan who just stated a statement without any evidence what so ever!

As for me being a brailwi, then my beliefs are mostly the same as the Brailwi Scholars, but then again they are mostly the same as the likes of..

Shaikh Muhammad Al Yaqubi
Shaikh Nazim Al Haqqani
Shaikh Gibrail Haddad
Shaikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller etc...

Why should call myself Brailwi? Am i from Brelwi Sharif? Do i do Taqleed on the Aqeedah of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Brailwi? No and No!

oh they're your scholars? that makes things much easier to understand.

Sunni Student
06-08-07, 08:32 PM
oh they're your scholars? that makes things much easier to understand.

And what is that supposed to mean?

Are you trying to tell me Shaikh Nuh, Shaikh Yaqoubi, Shaikh Haddad are sunni in your eyes?

MMS
06-08-07, 08:37 PM
And what is that supposed to mean?

Are you trying to tell me Shaikh Nuh, Shaikh Yaqoubi, Shaikh Haddad are sunni in your eyes?

they aint brelwi tho are they :scratch:

Ibn Sina
06-08-07, 09:09 PM
they aint brelwi tho are they :scratch:

They're Sufis :rolleyes:

miss-islamic
06-08-07, 09:33 PM
Some of the scholars I used to listen to or know were deobandi.
I do not like some of their views on women. (e.g. women being barred from the mosque. :-/)

Sunni Student
06-08-07, 10:49 PM
they aint brelwi tho are they :scratch:

No they are not, the term Brailwi would only be used by some of the Sunnis in the Indian Sub Continent and those from the south Asian ethnic background, most of the Sunnis from across the world do not know know the difference between a Deobandi and Brailwi, they regard them both as Ahl-us-Sunnah.

Scholars such as Shaikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller is a traditional sunni scholar, he attempted to mend the relationship between the deobandi and brailwis by analyzing the Takfeer which Imam Ahmad Rida Khan issued on certain Deobandi Scholars.

With regards to Shaikh Haddad then i think you will find it difficult to find any differences with his Aqeedah and the Aqeedah of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan Brailwi..have a go!

The shaykh has many Deobandi and Brailwi Students..

Abandoned-Mind
06-08-07, 10:51 PM
And 'they' call 'us' Takfeeris...

Medievalist
07-08-07, 01:58 PM
Many of those Hadith seem to be very clear, but if you think this is not the case then may be you should look up the commentary on the hadiths mentioned, or even the opinions of the True scholars.

:jkk: for the advice bro. :up:


Never heard that one before.

He did however write a fatwa declaring it haraam to fight jihaad against the British and he did request in his will that biriyani and rice pudding be taken to his grave 2-3 times a week.

true. I though the dust of the earth was the only thing that could satisfy the hunger of man - apparently the Arch-Barelwi thought otherwise :rotfl:


Listen to the lectures from Imaam Makki, and Insha’Allah you’ll understand what I mean.

Ma'aSalaama

which Makki Sahib? Ml. Khair Muhammad Makki?



And this rubbish about kashf and seeing the unseen by religious people is such rubbish when you read the arabic in the quran about Allah reveals the unseen to whom among his messengers that he chooses (or something along those lines, Plz forgive for not being spot on) in the arabic is says 'from among his RASOOLS' so are you now going to say that these pirs are rasools?

Also those of you who believe that the unseen is something good and religious people can do it plz, plz can you show me proof from SAHIH HADITH where ANY of the companions were able to do this? Abu Bakr, uthman, Umar or Ali RHAH Coz after the Prophet SAW his compaions were the best from among the ummah.

Does Anyone here have proof from eith Bukhari,muslim, abu dawood, an nisa, tirmidi etc. These books are universally known and accepted so plz plz show me proof of where the companions (who Allah granted Jannah) were able to perform kashf/know the unseen in any matter!!!

1. Kashf and Ilhaam are true.

2. Ilm e Ghayb is with ALLAH Ta'ala alone - we say that even that knowledge of the Ghayb which ALLAH Ta'ala bestowed upon Nabi :saw: is no longer classed as Ilm e Ghayb because ALLAH Ta'ala uses the word zahir (apparent) when describing how the ilm e ghayb is made apparent on Nabi :saw: in which case it no longer remains Ghayb.

3. Sayyidina Umar radhiyallahu anh experienced kashf on the occasion of the battle where he was in Madinah Munawwarah delivering khutbah and suddenly called out to the Sahaabi regarding the mountain - that is just one example - there are many more.

Medievalist
07-08-07, 02:08 PM
wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.

1. Divine inspiration - it is an error in translation. In arabic as we all know the language is very specific - english doesn't have that. What ended is wahy - undoubtedly anyone who claims to receive revelation after the Final Prophet :saw: is a liar and a kafir - this is unanimous opinion of all the Ulama of Islaam - any who deny this is a blatant kafir. But the "divine inspiration" referred to in the literature here is in no way a claim to wahy - that is unimaginable. It refers to kashf and ilhaam which are favours from ALLAH Ta'ala upon His Chosen Servants.

2. ALLAH Wali - this is something all muslims believe. Our Saudi ulama believe it, our Pakistani Ulama believe it, every muslim believes it because ALLAH Ta'ala himself has declared that He Ta'ala is the Wali of the Believers - what is so strange about believeing ALLAH Wali?

3. In regards to the story of the Shaykh and His Cloak - this was a miracle. The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah believe in the miracles of the Awliyah (Saints) of this Ummah as signs from ALLAH Ta'ala. The Sahaabah Karaam exhibited many miracles, the Tabi'een, Tab Tabi'een, Ulama of all ages and Awliyah of all ages have experienced miracles - what is so strange about that?

4. There is a hadeeth regarding firaasah of a mu'min. Imam Ibn Qayyim rahimahullah wrote an excellent treatise on the hadeeth - perhaps someone will find it? (looks at Abu Mus'ab).. In the hadeeth Madani Kareem :saw: states to the effect that beware of the firaasah of a mu'min for when he sees he see with the nur of ALLAH. We affirm that the firaasah of a mu'min (not a muslim) is indeed true.

5. There are the true salafiyyah and then there are the fakes. Imam Ibn AbdulWahhab rahimahullah's son himself affirmed that they hold belief in the miracles of the Awliyah without exaggerating and without elevating the rank of anyone beyond what is permitted. ALHAMDULILLAH the Ulama of Deoband are kattar Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah with straight aqeedah.

6. Islaam is sufism and sufism is Islaam. Fiqh relates to the external and is essential, tasawwuf relates to the internal and is essential. The Quran and Ahadeeth are filled with rulings on the external and on the internal aspects of human life. We have been informed in the Quran on how to perform wudhu - external - we have been informed in Quran pray with khushu - internal. Any person who rejects either aspect has manifestly erred.

7. Spiritual masters - terminology. I call someone my murshid or my Shaykh or my Peer and people get different views. If I refer to my teacher as Peer Sahib people will assume he is dodgy, if I refer to him as Mawlana people will think he is a pakistani, if I refer to him as Fadeelatash Shaykh people will think he's an saudi trained scholar. Its terminology which we get bogged down in - look to the substance.

Bay'ah is a true part of Islaam - it was one of the three principle reasons Nabi :saw: was sent - to purify the people. We cannot deny such a fundamental of islaam and label it similar to hinduism. How can you compare a Kamil Shaykh who advises people on spiritual maladies - anger,jealousy, backbiting, desire, gossip, ambition - as someone wrong?

Medievalist
07-08-07, 02:20 PM
Shaykhul Islam Allaamah Taqi-u-ddin Hafiz Ahmad ibn Taymiyah (RA). In his famous ‘Fataawa ibn Taymiyah’ he states, ‘miracles (of the Awliyaa) sometimes occur by a person hearing something that others can’t, sometimes a person sees something that others don’t whilst awake or in a dream, sometimes a person is given knowledge of something which others don’t know about through Wahy (revelation) or Ilhaam (inspiration)… this this is called Kashf and Mushahadaat..’ (Fataawa ibn Taymiyah vol.11 pg.173; Darul Wafaa)

Brother - these people by and large dont know what Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah taught and unfortunately many people have only read 2 books on an issue and think they have become experts.

Quite a few comments on this thread have wreaked of ignorance and I know quite well the mind-set of the so-called salafiyyah - or as I call them, street salafis - who unfortunately don't know alif from baa and speak about innovation and shirk and misguidance without knowledge.

My advice - go and find out what Ilm e Ghayb is -by our definition even that knowledge that is between ALLAH and Nabi :saw: - and no-one else in creation knows about it , even that is not classed as Ghayb because it was made apparent to Nabi :saw:

Further - find out exactly what kashf and ilhaam and firaasah and roohaniyat are.

May ALLAH Ta'ala guide us to the truth and save us from the falsehood. ameen

Medievalist
07-08-07, 02:24 PM
Also - some people are commenting on Shaykh Nuh, Shaykh Ya;qubi etc - Im not a sympathiser or listener to these people. And I dont subscribe to their ways but at the same time I dont think there is any benefit in me speaking bdaly of them because Im not aware entirely of them. I dont listen to their talks, I dont attend when invited but I try to withhold my tongue in regards to them.

Similarly Shaykh Sudais - some of the things I disagree really really strongly with about Shaykh but I dont speak ill either.

Unless you are willing to lay your imaan on the line when declaring people one way or the other - we should be silent.

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 03:29 PM
Deobandi are not Salafi, they are Madhabi, if there is such a term. To expand they follow a particular Madhab, and from what I gather the Hanaafi and the Shaafi Madhabs are popular amongst them. This may be just because those two Madhab can be found in that particular region.

The large majority of Brelvi's commit lots of a Bidah, and even at times shirk.

Ma'aSalaama

Explain to me how the brelvi's do bidah and shirk?

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 03:41 PM
Barelvis are definatly not the majority now are they? They probably number around 200 million. No other groups of Muslims share most of the deviencies of barelvis so you can't say other sunnis are like barelvis either.

Deobandis are similar in number to Barelvis, plus you've got many non-deobandis who shun grave worship and acts of bid'ah so collective these people outnumber barelvis.

Therefore your claims that barelvis are the main jama'at, destined for paradise, is evidently false.

Pakistan has an estimated population of 169,270,617 most of pakistan are barelvis.

Bangladesh's population range from 142 to 159 million most of them are barelvis.

so there goes ur quote out the window oh year and i forgot to mention the so called barelvis living in europe.

and the wahabis are only in saudi arabia a.k salifes

Medievalist
07-08-07, 03:46 PM
Pakistan has an estimated population of 169,270,617 most of pakistan are barelvis.

Bangladesh's population range from 142 to 159 million most of them are barelvis.

so there goes ur quote out the window oh year and i forgot to mention the so called barelvis living in europe.

and the wahabis are only in saudi arabia a.k salifes

Unfortunately its a case fo where there is ignorance there are barelwis. Its mostly the islamically uneducated who are barelwi because all they know is the local hereditary peership and the local customs. If we compare it to the Darul Ulooms and graduates we'll find that in regards to religious education the major institutes and leading Islamic figures in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh etc are people farigh from Deobandi madaaris. Mufti Muhammad Shafi rahimahullah was the first Mufti e Azam of Pakistan - he established the Darul Uloom Karachi. The current Mufti e Azam Mufti Muhammad Rafee Uthmani Sahib is the son of Mufti Shafi Sahib and also a graduate from Korangi madrassah. The people who actually have a proper sanad and have striaght institutes are the so-called deobandis - the barelwis only have hereditray molvyships and hereditary peerhoods. :rotfl:

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 03:46 PM
The Deobandi (Urdu: دیو بندی devbandī) is an Islamic revivalist movement which started in South Asia and has more recently spread to other countries, such as Afghanistan, South Africa and the United Kingdom. Deobandis follow the fiqh of Abu Hanifa and are regarded as a part of the Ahlus Sunnah wal-Jamaa'h. They follow Abu Mansur Maturidi's thought in Aqeedah and Ilm ul Kalaam i.e refuting criticism of Islam made using Greek logic. Deobandi thought is characterised by a strict adherence to the Sunnah (the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad) and an emphasis on Sharīˤa (Islamic law). The Deobandis are associated with the Sufi Tariqahs of the Naqshabandiyyah, Chishtiyyah, Qadiriyyah and Suhrawardiyyah. The name derives from Deoband, India, where the madrassa Darul Uloom Deoband is situated.

The Deobandi movement developed as a reaction to the British colonialism in India, whom they believed to be corrupting Islam. Fearing this, a group of Indians ˤUlāmā led by Maulana Qasim Nanautavi founded an Islamic seminary known as Darul Uloom Waqf Deoband (seeDarul Uloom Deoband) The Urdu word "Waqf" refers to a social trust. It is here that the Islamic revivalist and anti-British ideology of the Deobandis began to develop. Gradually, their influence, through organisations such as Jamiat Ulema-e Hind and Tableeghi Jamaat, began to spread and hundreds of Madrassas and Darul Ulooms affiliated to Deoband sprouted. Notable Deobandi seminaries include Nadwatu l-Ulama (Lucknow) and Darul Uloom Karachi (Karachi, Pakistan).

Some of the early Deobandi scholars included Maulana Qasim Nanotwi, Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi, Maulana Husain Ahmed Madani, Mawlana Ashraf Ali Thanawi, Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri, Mufti Kifayat Ullah Dahlavi, Maulana Ilyas Khandhelawi and Mawlana Ubaidullah Sindhi, Maulana Muḥammad Zakarīyā al-Kandahlawī, as well as Maulana Rahmatullah Kairanvi, the famous polemicist who emigrated to Arabia after the 1857 war, who was also associated with Deoband.

The Taliban
The Taliban are said to follow the teachings of the Deoband school, although some scholars, like Ahmed Rashid, claim they follow a simplistic version of the school's teachings.[1]


The Tablighi Jamaat
Some famous people who propagate Islam by joining the Tablighi Jamaat (a movement started by a student of the Islamic University, Deoband, Maulana Muhammad Ilyas) are Pakistani cricketers Shahid Afridi, Inzamam ul Haq, Mohammad Yousuf (a recent revert/convert), Saqlain Mushtaq and many others. Also, former Pakistani cricketers including Saeed Anwar and Salim Malik. A very famous pop star Junaid Jamshaid is also a visible personality, propagating Islam to the masses amongst many others.

Saeed Al-Muslim
07-08-07, 03:51 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,

My sister sada (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2054089&postcount=52) has the following questions:

1. Allaah (swT) can tell a lie. (Fataawa Rasheediyah, vol. 1. Page 19).

2. Allaah (swT) does not know beforehand what His creations would do. Al-Laah comes to know of their doings only after they have done something. (Tafseer Bulghatul Hairaan pages 157 and 158).

3. Shaitaan (Satan) and the Angel of death are more knowledgeable than the holy Prophet is (Sallal Laahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam). (Baraaheen-e-Qaati'ah, pages 51 and 52).

4. The Prophet of Allaah (swT) was not aware of his ultimate fate and of things beyond a wall. (Barraheen-e-Qaati 'ah, page 51).

5. The kind of knowledge and the amount of knowledge of the unseen given by Almighty Allaah (swT) to the holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) has also been given to animals, lunatics and children. (Hifzul Ieemnan, page 7).

Ma'aSalaama

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 03:51 PM
Ahmad Raza Khan known by many as Ala Hadhrat was a prominent Muslim Alim from Bareilly, a city in Northern India during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He is most well known for inspiring the Barelwi Islamic movement named after his birthplace. Imam Aĥmed Raza was also poet and writer, authoring nearly 1,000 books and monographs of varying lengths in Arabic, Persian and Urdu. He was a follower of Hanafi fiqh.

Aalahazrat Imam Aĥmed Raza was born in 1272 AH (1856 CE) into a family of Alims (legal scholars). His father, Mawlānā Naqī Áli Khān, was a renowned alim of his time. His mother named him Amman Miyān. Aalahazrat studied Islamic sciences mainly under the tutelage of his father. He undertook the traditional dars-e nizami course under his father's supervision. From the childhood, he was said to have a lot of aptitude for Islamic jurisprudence and above all tremendous love and respect for Prophet Muhammad. It is said that at the age of 6yrs he gave a sermon in a masjid on the occasion of the shab-e-meraj(night of ascent)for about two and half hours in a way, which was far too higher for a child of his age.

At the age of 14,Imam Ahmed Raza gave a correct fatawa relating to a very complex matter, which matched that of the notable scholars of that time. Due to his remarkable capability and profound knowledge in matters of Islamic jurisprudence Ala Hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza, was given the responsibility of writing Fatawa (written answers to Islamic legal problems). It was through this path of life that he communicated to the groups that would carry his name, his vision of Islam and Din (faith). Because of his knowledge and innate intuition in matters of religion, many people used to approach him in matters of religion. He has written a book comprising of fatawa i.e. Fatawa Razwiyya comprising of 14 volumes, each volume in turn comprising of 14000 odd pages.

At 21 years of age, he received the blessing of one of the most outstanding Pirs of the area and sent him out to make Sufi's from anyone worthy. At 22 years of age while on Hajj with his father, he received many honours from some of the great Sufi teachers of his time. Hajj was a turning point in his life. It inspired Imam Raza Khan to make followers throughout India and impart his teachings and knowledge on them. During his lifetime, he wrote approximately 1398 books.

Aalahazrat Imam Aĥmed Raza studied many sciences and fiqh (Sunni religious law) particularly in the Hanafi school. He earned many degrees of authorization in Hanafi. By his own affirmation, the most important one was from the Mufti of Makkah, Shaykh Ábd ar-Raĥmān as-Sirāj ibn Ábdullāh as-Sirāj. This chain of transmission is claimed to reach back to Abu Hanifah.

He is known for his great love and respect for Prophet Muhammad because of which he had to attack(with his writings)the Wahabis especially the (Deobandies), and other so called Muslim groups, libertarian religion-reformers like Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan, Abu'l Kalām Āzād, and others of the early 20th century.

Aalahazrat Imam Aĥmed Raza Khan took the Qadiri path and was initiated in that Sufi order by Sayyid Abu’l Ĥusayn Nūrī of Mārahra (a town in northern India). He dedicated many tracts to the love of Muhammad, as is evident in his writings and endeavours.

In 1904 he founded a school, the Madrasa Manzar al-Islam. The position of chief administrator of this school was later to become a hereditary one within the Raza family for the next four generations.

Aalahazrat Imam Ahmed Raza Khan died in 1340 AH (1921 CE) at the age of 63.

Imam Ahmad Raza came into conflict with the leaders of Deoband. Until now, Sunni Muslims who abide by the teaching of Imam Ahmad Raza refuse to consider the members Deobandi school as Muslims and forbid eating they meat, marrying them or praying together with them. In Pakistan, the first purely religious political alliance was between Jamiat-e-Ulma-e-Islam (Deobandi) and Jamiat-e-Ulma-e-Pakistan (Barelwi). Later on, other schools of thought joined to form Muttahida Majlis Amal (MMA).But one should keep in mind that these alliances are for political reasons as far as the basics of creed and dogmas are concerned the gulf is wide and will remain wider.

He had many ijazahs (Degrees of authorization) in Hanafi fiqh, and by his own affirmation, the most important one is from the Muftī of Makkah, Shaykh abd ar-Rahmān as-Siraj ibn Abdullāh as-Siraj (The Master of the Kaaba or place of hajj). This chain of transmission reaches Imām Abū Hanifah in twenty-seven links and in further four to Muhammad.

He had an authorization of hadith (Sayings of Muhammad handed down from generation to generation) transmission from the great Meccan scholar, Malik al-úlamā, Sayyid Ahmed Zayni Dahlan ash-Shafiyi.

He took the Qadiri path and was initiated in that Sufi order by Allama Sayyid Shah Aale Rasool Hussaini Qadri Barkati Al-Hanafi ( Student of Allama Abdul Aziz Mohaddith e Dehalwi Al-Hanafi ) of Mārahra (a town in northern India) when he turned 21 years of age. He was a great lover of Muhammad (salallaho alehi wasallam) as is evident in his writings and endeavours. He was also a great poet who has to his credit abundant and sublime verse in Arabic, Persian and Urdu. The anthology of his Urdu and Persian verse is presented in a slim volume with two parts and named: ‘Hadayiq e Bakh’shish’ meaning ‘Gardens of Salvation’.

Aalahazrat Imam Ahmed Raza was the author of nearly 1,400 books[citation needed] and monographs of varying lengths, as well as poetry, in Arabic, Persian and Urdu. Amongst the most well known are the following:

Kanz ul Iman Fi Tarjamatu'l Qu'ran (The Treasure of Faith: A translation of the Quran) - This is his Urdu translation of the Koran. It combines fluency of language with Qu'ranic exegesis and is an explanatory translation, as opposed to a literal one.
Ĥadāyiq e Bakh’shish (Gardens of Salvation) - This is his slim two-volume anthology of Urdu and Persian poetry, eulogizing the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah blessings and salaams be upon him).
Al- Átāyā an-Nabawiyyah fi’l Fatāwā ar-RiĎawiyyah (also known as Fatāwa ar-RiDawiyyah or Fatāwā Razwiyah) - His magnum opus, this is a collection of books, monographs and edicts on all aspects of Hanafī fiqh. The latest edition runs into 24 large volumes.
Al-Dawlatul Makkiyah (The Meccan Treasure) - This is amongst his masterpieces and was written in a few days. It discusses, in great detail, the Prophet's Knowledge of the Unseen ( 'ilm al ghayb), one of the contentious issues between Ahlus Sunnah and their opponents, notably the literalist Wahabi school.
Hussamul Harmain which is collection of fatawa of heresy given against notable Deobandi and Wahabi scholars(like Ashraf Ali Thanwi) by the great and well-known Islamic scholars of Mecca and Medina.
He also made several poems about Muhammad, such as Lam Yati Nadhiruka Fi Nadharin (in Arabic Urdu, Hindi and Persian) and Zamin-o-Zaman, which can be found in Ĥadāyiq e Bakh’shish.


From the period of the Crimean War to 1878, Britain encouraged a pro-Turkish policy for Muslim India. Aĥmed Raza's stance followed this line. In one of his famous works, Tahzib Al-Akhlaq, he is on record as praising the reforms in the Ottoman Dominions.

He rejected the spiritual jurisdiction of the Ottoman Khilafah based on the accepted classical Sunni position that the caliph must be from Quraysh, the tribe of the Prophet to which the Ottomans did not belong. He held the view that the real Khilafah had ended with the first four caliphs (Khulafa al-Rashidun) and protested the ban imposed by Sultan Abd Al-Hamid II against discussions on this subject, which was entirely in accordance with Sunni traditional thought. Aĥmed Raza rejected the jihad against the British occupation of India since in his view, British India was not Dar al Herb (an abode of war), and refused to cooperate with Hindus and other Muslims who used various other means of protest against the British Empire which were against the Shariah in his view. His stance was based on the principal that one must not cooperate with people of innovation in doctrine ahl ul bid'ah and thus disobey the Shariah for political gain. Personally, it appears he did not accept the jurisdiction of the British; an indication of this was his habit of affixing postage stamps with the head of the Queen upside down and his refusal to attend British court hearings.

However, when the Non-Cooperation Movement was launched in 1920 by an alliance of the Khilafat Movement and Gandhi, Aĥmed Raza remained aloof. He objected to collaboration with Hindus in preference to collaboration with 'People of the Book', the British, based on sound Islamic legal edicts of the past.


Aalahazrat Imam Aĥmed Raza's spiritual and religious involvements seemingly encompassed his life. However, he was also a self-taught scientist in many fields and a mathematician. He acted upon his sincere belief of the Koran and Hadith mentioning that Islam and science are intertwined within each other. He wrote several treatises on several scientific fields



During the period of the Indian Khilafat Movement, Gandhi was advised that he should meet with Aĥmed Raza. When he was told that the Gandhi wished to meet and speak to him, Aĥmed Raza said, "What would he speak about? Religion or worldly affairs? If it is worldly affairs, what can I partake in, for I have abstained from the world and have no interest in it." (Al Mizaan, p. 335)

Hasan Nizami in an article called Kitabi Dunya (p. 2) when referring to the introduction to Dawam al-Aish (p. 18) said about Ahmad Rida Khan: "Most of his novices and followers separated from him for their disagreement with him on the Khilafat Movement."


Ahmad Rida Khan declared that in the time of British Imperialism in India, there was no Jihad against them! This led to his opponents to consider him to be a supporter of the British and some went to the level of accusing him to be funded by the British. Ahmad Rida Khan said in his al-Mahajjat al-Mu'tamana (p. 208): "Jihad is not obligatory for us, the Muslims of India, on the basis of the Qur'an. He who holds that it is obligatory is an opponent to the Muslims and intends to harm them!" He also said in his book: Dawam al-Aish (p. 46): "Jihad and fighting are not binding on the Muslims of India!"


He had made a statement that his followers should strictly abide to his doctrines and ideologies His statements have been collated by a Barelvi by the name of Hasnain Rida in a book entitled: Wasaya Sharif. Rida Khan said to his followers as recorded in the Wasaya (p. 10): "Hold fast to my faith and doctrine which is apparent from my works. Hold fast to it and remain honest to it, for it is the most significant duty among the duties." He also said: "I do not know how long I shall live among you. You are the naive sheep of Mustafa and the wolves have encompassed you from all sides. They want to lead you astray and create schism and dissent among you. They wish to carry you to the hell-fire. So keep away from them, especially the Deobandies" (Al-Bastawi in his al-Bareilawi.

Saeed Al-Muslim
07-08-07, 03:54 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,

Akhi salahuldin786, please do not copy paste huge chunks of text here, instead please can you provide a link and a source for your articles.

Jazaak Allaahu khair Akhi.

Ma'aSalaama

Medievalist
07-08-07, 03:55 PM
Sa'eed you call yourself a salafi and you're quoting from the lies propogated by the Arch Barelwi? Amazing how people flit this way and that when it suits them.

May ALLAH Ta'ala guide us away from the desires of the nafs and make our hearts receptive to the truth alone - ameen

Saeed Al-Muslim
07-08-07, 03:57 PM
Sa'eed you call yourself a salafi and you're quoting from the lies propogated by the Arch Barelwi? Amazing how people flit this way and that when it suits them.

May ALLAH Ta'ala guide us away from the desires of the nafs and make our hearts receptive to the truth alone - ameen
Ameen.

What, you misunderstand me Akhi. It is only something our sister requested me to ask. Not from me Akhi. Please see the link.

Ma'aSalaama

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 03:57 PM
Unfortunately its a case fo where there is ignorance there are barelwis. Its mostly the islamically uneducated who are barelwi because all they know is the local hereditary peership and the local customs. If we compare it to the Darul Ulooms and graduates we'll find that in regards to religious education the major institutes and leading Islamic figures in Pakistan, India, Bangladesh etc are people farigh from Deobandi madaaris. Mufti Muhammad Shafi rahimahullah was the first Mufti e Azam of Pakistan - he established the Darul Uloom Karachi. The current Mufti e Azam Mufti Muhammad Rafee Uthmani Sahib is the son of Mufti Shafi Sahib and also a graduate from Korangi madrassah. The people who actually have a proper sanad and have striaght institutes are the so-called deobandis - the barelwis only have hereditray molvyships and hereditary peerhoods. :rotfl:

so the deyobandi dont have peer hood i know brother's who are bath to a guy who used to be at central mosque i dont know his first name but it was like al haq,now they are up leicester.

Abandoned-Mind
07-08-07, 03:59 PM
so the deyobandi dont have peer hood i know brother's who are bath to a guy who used to be at central mosque i dont know his first name but it was like al haq,now they are up leicester.

Riyadh ul Haq?

Medievalist
07-08-07, 04:01 PM
so the deyobandi dont have peer hood i know brother's who are bath to a guy who used to be at central mosque i dont know his first name but it was like al haq,now they are up leicester.

Bro please read what I wrote. I was referring to hereditary peerhood where because someones greatgrandfather was an ALLAH Wali - they think the descendents are Peers. In urdu they call them sajdanasheen or gaddinasheen because they sit on the cushion of their forefather.

Undoubteduly having a Peer/Shaykh/Murshid is a part of Islaam but what barelwis do is they have any fasiq fajir as a peer because his father or one of his ancestors was pious.

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 04:05 PM
that.s it

salahuldin786
07-08-07, 04:13 PM
i go to these barelwi masjid's,and i love my brother's at dawat islami, they woke my heart up and made me see sense with the help of allah,they are good brother's.

Medievalist
07-08-07, 07:04 PM
i go to these barelwi masjid's,and i love my brother's at dawat islami, they woke my heart up and made me see sense with the help of allah,they are good brother's.

mashaALLAH. It is encouraging that Da'wat e Islami was established. Earlier when the missionary movement - Tableeghi Jama'at - started up many many people abused them - now through the grace of ALLAH - the very people who mocked at these lota-walas today have started an effort in Da'wat o Tableegh themselves. mashaALLAH.

Bro have you been on jama'at at all?

Medievalist
07-08-07, 07:40 PM
Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this

I commented on this post before but certain point have jumped to me.

1. no1 said anything about any1 getting the knowledge of their shaykhs just by putting on a cloak. In regards to seeing things that other people present cant or seeing things differently what is so shocking about that? Religiously - ImaanSeeker has provided a quote of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah stating this, and it is accepted by the classical ulama - the rank of firasah.
http://www.alinaam.org.za/library/firasah.htm

Similarly even scientifically - we don't know for certain that what I see is the same thing you see.

2. dude - kindly refer to saints more respectively or keep quiet.

3. hinduism/sufism/deobandis. Thank you for the insinuation - I guess you must be right and we are following hinduism - and I guess the Ulama of generations both earlier and latter just got it wrong and our Mujtahid Imams of today are the beacons of light and fountains of guidance.

:salams

ImaanSeeker
07-08-07, 08:21 PM
I was looking forward to your response Med, MashaAllah very good posts. :up:

Hopefully, others take heed.

:jkk:

*asiya*
07-08-07, 08:34 PM
you need to read Ibn tayimyyah`s refutation of al sufiyah in al fataawaa, and stop using his quotes of what sufis claim as his own personal statements. This ridiculous notion that Ibn Taymiyyah supported sufisim, or that the sufis are alhus sunnah wal jamaa needs to be stamped out. This is what Ibn Taymiyyah rahimullah actually said about the false miracles claimed by Sufi leaders:

"It may also be done with the help of their devils as they are a people who are as closely attended by devils as they are by their own brothers... These people who experience these satanic happenings are under a great delusion, in their foolishness they are deprived of all blessings, they only increase that which is feared, they devour the wealth of the people in futile acts, they do not order the good, nor do they forbid evil, and they do not fight Jihaad in Allah's Cause." [Al-Fataawaa].
sufis

read Al-Fataawaa - by Sheikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah and then go and read Talbess Iblis - by Ibn Al-Jawzy and when you have done that, then you will not have the audacity to come back and tell me that ibn taymiyyah shaikhul Islam was a sufi or supported these notions that the sufi hold.

ImaanSeeker
07-08-07, 09:13 PM
you need to read Ibn tayimyyah`s refutation of al sufiyah in al fataawaa, and stop using his quotes of what sufis claim as his own personal statements. This ridiculous notion that Ibn Taymiyyah supported sufisim, or that the sufis are alhus sunnah wal jamaa needs to be stamped out. This is what Ibn Taymiyyah rahimullah actually said about the false miracles claimed by Sufi leaders:

"It may also be done with the help of their devils as they are a people who are as closely attended by devils as they are by their own brothers... These people who experience these satanic happenings are under a great delusion, in their foolishness they are deprived of all blessings, they only increase that which is feared, they devour the wealth of the people in futile acts, they do not order the good, nor do they forbid evil, and they do not fight Jihaad in Allah's Cause." [Al-Fataawaa].
sufis

read Al-Fataawaa - by Sheikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah and then go and read Talbess Iblis - by Ibn Al-Jawzy and when you have done that, then you will not have the audacity to come back and tell me that ibn taymiyyah shaikhul Islam was a sufi or supported these notions that the sufi hold.

alright asiya, I will read what you have suggested, meanwhile read this:


In Imam Ibn Taymiyyah's(ra) book, al-Mukhtasar al-Fatawa al-Masriyya, published by al-Madani Publishing House, page 603:

"The miracles of saints are absolutely true and correct, by the acceptance of all Muslim scholars. And the Qur'an has pointed to it in different places, and the Hadith of the Prophet (s) have mentioned it, and whoever denies the miraculous power of saints are only people who are innovators and their followers."

ImaanSeeker
07-08-07, 09:24 PM
you need to read Ibn tayimyyah`s refutation of al sufiyah in al fataawaa, and stop using his quotes of what sufis claim as his own personal statements. This ridiculous notion that Ibn Taymiyyah supported sufisim, or that the sufis are alhus sunnah wal jamaa needs to be stamped out. This is what Ibn Taymiyyah rahimullah actually said about the false miracles claimed by Sufi leaders:

"It may also be done with the help of their devils as they are a people who are as closely attended by devils as they are by their own brothers... These people who experience these satanic happenings are under a great delusion, in their foolishness they are deprived of all blessings, they only increase that which is feared, they devour the wealth of the people in futile acts, they do not order the good, nor do they forbid evil, and they do not fight Jihaad in Allah's Cause." [Al-Fataawaa].
sufis

read Al-Fataawaa - by Sheikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah and then go and read Talbess Iblis - by Ibn Al-Jawzy and when you have done that, then you will not have the audacity to come back and tell me that ibn taymiyyah shaikhul Islam was a sufi or supported these notions that the sufi hold.

No doubt that that there are some 'sufis' that claim all sorts of crazy things. Imam Ibn Taymiyyah(ra) acknowledges that with the statement you posted.

But at the same time Imam Ibn Taymiyyah(ra) acknoledges Tasawwuf and its importance for every Muslim. Enjoy:

Imam Ibn Taymiyya(ra), mentioned about the definition of Tasawwuf, from Volume 11,"At-Tawassuf" of "Majmu'a Fatawa Ibn Taymiyya al-Kubra," Dar ar-Rahmah, Cairo:

"Alhamdulillah, the pronunciation of the word Tasawwuf has been thoroughly discussed. From those who spoke about Tasawwuf were not just the the Imams and Shaikhs, but also included were Ahmad bin Hanbal, Abi Sulayman ad-Daarani, As-Sirr as-Saqati, al-Junayd al-Baghdadi, Hasan al-Basri, Ma'aruf al-Karkhi, Abdul Qadir Jilani, Bayazid al-Bistami [one of the grandshaikhs of the Naqshbandi Tariqat] and many others. This is a term that was given to those who were dealing with that kind of science [tazkiyyat an-nafs and Ihsan]."

Imam Ibn Taymiyya says:

"Tassawuf has realities and states of experience which they talk about in their science. Some of it is that the Sufi is that one who purifies himself from anything which distracts him from the remembrance of Allah and who will be so filled up with knowledge of the heart and knowledge of the mind to the point that the value of gold and stones will be the same to him. And Tasawwuf is safeguarding the precious meanings and leaving behind the call to fame and vanity in order to reach the state of Truthfulness, because the best of humans after the prophets are the Siddiqeen, as Allah mentioned them in the verse:

'(And all who obey God and the Apostle) are in the company of those on whom is the grace of Allah: of the prophets, the sincere lovers of truth, the martyrs and the righteous; Ah! what a beautiful fellowship.'"
(an-Nisa', 69,70)

Ibn Taymiyya continues:

"as-Sufi hua fil-haqiqa naw'un min as-siddiqeen. Fahua as-siddiq alladhee ikhtassa bil-zuhadiwal-'ibada."

which translates:

"And the Sufi is in reality a kind of Siddiq (Truthful One), that Siddiq who specialized in zuhd and worship."

He continues about the Sufis,

"some people criticised Sufiyya and Tasawwuf and they said they were innovators, out of the Sunnah, but the truth is they are striving in Allah's obedience[mujtahidin fi ta'at-illahi], as others of Allah's People strove in Allah's obedience. So from them you will find the Foremost in Nearness by virtue of his striving [as-saabiq ul-muqarrab bi hasab ijtihadihi]. And some of them are from the People of the Right hand [Ahl al-Yameen mentioned in Qur'an in Sura Waqi'ah], but slower in their progress. For both kinds, they might make ijtihad and in that case they might be correct and they might be wrong. And from both types, some of them might make a sin and repent. And this is the origin of Tasawwuf. And after that origin, it has been spread and (tasha'abat wa tanawa'at) has its main line and its branches. And it has become three kinds:

1. Sufiyyat il-Haqa'iq - the True Sufis
2. Sufiyyat il-Arzaaq - the Professional Sufis (those who use Sufism for personal gain)
3. Sufiyyat il-Rasm - the Caricature Sufis. (Sufi by appearance only)."

ImaanSeeker
07-08-07, 09:32 PM
By the Way, I only quote Imam Ibn Taymiyyah(ra) in this thread because I think that is what most people participating in this thread would be most interested about his opinion.

But I do want to add that there is virtually no classical scholar that is opposed to the idea of kashf and ilhaam being present in the Auliya Ikram.

I think people need to read about the lives of Hassan Al-Basri, Habib Al-Ajmy, Malik ibn Dinar, also Junaid Al-Baghdadi, Abdullah ibn Mubarak etc. May Allah(swt) be pleased with all of them.

Tassawuf is an integral part of Islam. There is no questioning that.

Fais
07-08-07, 09:35 PM
or that the sufis are alhus sunnah wal jamaa needs to be stamped out.

.... What do you have to say about the likes of say .. Shaikh 'Abd al-Qadr Jilani (Ra) ...?

MMS
07-08-07, 09:39 PM
you need to read Ibn tayimyyah`s refutation of al sufiyah in al fataawaa, and stop using his quotes of what sufis claim as his own personal statements. This ridiculous notion that Ibn Taymiyyah supported sufisim, or that the sufis are alhus sunnah wal jamaa needs to be stamped out. This is what Ibn Taymiyyah rahimullah actually said about the false miracles claimed by Sufi leaders:

"It may also be done with the help of their devils as they are a people who are as closely attended by devils as they are by their own brothers... These people who experience these satanic happenings are under a great delusion, in their foolishness they are deprived of all blessings, they only increase that which is feared, they devour the wealth of the people in futile acts, they do not order the good, nor do they forbid evil, and they do not fight Jihaad in Allah's Cause." [Al-Fataawaa].
sufis

read Al-Fataawaa - by Sheikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah and then go and read Talbess Iblis - by Ibn Al-Jawzy and when you have done that, then you will not have the audacity to come back and tell me that ibn taymiyyah shaikhul Islam was a sufi or supported these notions that the sufi hold.

do you deny kashf all together?

khanbaba
08-08-07, 12:05 AM
Sheikh Ibn Taymiah was indeed a sufi of Qadri Tariqah.

In a manuscript of the Hanbali 'alim, Shaikh Yusuf bin 'Abd al-Hadi (d. 909H), entitled Bad' al-'ula bi labs al-Khirqa [found in Princeton, Sorbonne and Damascus], Ibn Taymiyya is found in a Sufi spiritual genealogy with other well-known Hanbali scholars, all except one (Say. Jilani) heretofore unknown as Sufis. The links in this genealogy are, in descending order:

1. 'Abdul Qadir Jilani (d. 561 H.)
2.a. Abu 'Umar bin Qudama (d. 607 H.)
2.b. Muwaffaq ad-Din bin Qudama (d. 620 H.)
3. Ibn Abi 'Umar bin Qudama (d. 682 H.)
4. Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 H.)
5. Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya (d. 751 H.)
6. Ibn Rajab (d. 795 H.)

Further corroboration of two links separating him from 'Abdul Qadir Jilani comes from Ibn Taymiyya himself, as quoted in a manuscript of the work al-Mas'ala at-Tabriziyya (manuscript, Damascus, 1186 H):

"labistu al-khirqata mubarakata lish-Shaikh 'Abdul Qadir wa bayni wa baynahu 'than"

"I wore the blessed Sufi cloak of 'Abdul Qadir, there being between him and me two."


Ibn Taymiyya is quoted by Yusuf ibn 'Abd al-Hadi, affirming his Sufi affiliation in more than one Sufi order:

"I have worn the Sufi cloak [khirqata at-Tasawwuf] of a number of shaikhs belonging to various tariqas [min turuqi jama'atin min ash-shuyukhi] , among them the Shaikh 'Abdul Qadir al-Jili, whose tariqa is the greatest of the well-known ones."

Further on he continues: "The greatest tariqa [ajallu-t-turuqi] is that of my master [sayyidi], 'Abdul Qadir al-Jili, may Allah have mercy on him."

[found in "Al-Hadi" manuscript in Princeton Library, Collection fol. 154a, 169b, 171b-172a and Damascus University, copy of original Arabic manuscript, 985H.; also mentioned in "at-Talyani", manuscript Chester Beatty 3296 (8) in Dublin, fol. 67a.]


Imam Ibn Taymiyya About Miracles of Saints

In his book al-Mukhtasar al-Fatawa al-Masriyya, published by al-Madani Publishing House, 1980, page 603:

"The miracles of saints are absolutely true and correct, by the acceptance of all Muslim scholars. And the Qur'an has pointed to it in different places, and the Hadith of the Prophet (s) have mentioned it, and whoever denies the miraculous power of saints are only people who are innovators and their followers.

And Ibn Taymiyya continues:

"THOSE GREAT SUFI PEOPLE WERE THE LEADERS OF HUMANITY, AND THEY WERE CALLING TO WHAT IS RIGHT AND FORBIDDING WHAT IS WRONG."

Ibn Taymiyya says on page 499 of the same volume:

"And the shaikhs whom we need to take as guides are our examples that we have to follow, as when on the Hajj, (the pilgrimage) one needs a guide [daleel] to reach the Ka'aba, these shaikhs are our guide [daleel] to Allah and our Prophet (s)."

Imam Ibn Taymiyya Explains Those Who are Speaking about Fana'

In Book 2, volume 2, pages 396-397 of Majmu'a Fatawi Ibn Taymiyya, published by Dar ar-Rahmat, Cairo, Ibn Taymiyya speaks about subject of fana' also known is Sufism as annihilation. He said,

"This state of love is the state of many people that are from the people of Love to Allah 'azza wa jall, they are the people of the love of Allah and the People of the Will (al-Irada) of Allah (it is typical of many of the people that love God and seek Him.) Because that person has vanished in his lover, in Allah 'azza wa jall--through the intensity of the love, because He vanished in Allah's love, not his own ego's love. And he will recall Allah, not recalling himself, remember Allah not remembering himself, visualizing Allah [yastashhid], not visualizing himself, existing in Allah, not in the existence of himself. When he reaches that stage, he no longer feels his own existence. And that is why he says in this state, "Ana al-Haqq" (I am the Truth), or "Subhanee. (Glory to Me!)" and he will say "maa fil jubba ill-Allah" (there is nothing in this cloak except Allah), because he is drunk in the love of God and this is a pleasure and happiness that he cannot control.

ImaanSeeker
08-08-07, 12:35 AM
read Al-Fataawaa - by Sheikhul Islam Ibn Taymiyah and then go and read Talbess Iblis - by Ibn Al-Jawzy and when you have done that, then you will not have the audacity to come back and tell me that ibn taymiyyah shaikhul Islam was a sufi or supported these notions that the sufi hold.

Talbis Iblis by Ibn Al-Jawzi is not an attack against tasawwuf nor is it targeted at sufis alone. For some reason many use this work to claim that Ibn Al-Jawzi was against tasawwuf and sufism. In reality, this book is an attack on all practices that are unorthodox and that were innovations. Of course some sufis fall in this category as well as muslims that belong to other sects.

Ibn al-Jawzi however is a huge proponent of tasawwuf himself. In fact, two of his books are some of the greatest books on tassawuf ever: Safwat as-Safa and Minhaj al-Qasidin wa Mufid as-Sadiqin. Read them.

Not only that but he has authored other books, Fada'il Hasan al-Basri (The Gracious Character of Hasan al-Basri), and Manaqib Ibrahim bin Adham, (The Good Qualities of Ibrahim bin Adham), Manaqib Bishr al-Hafi, Manaqib Ma'ruf al-Karkhi, "Manaqib Rabi'a al-Adawiyya. In sections of his book al-Muntazam many biographical notices may be found in praise of Mutasawwifeen.

Pershaps asiyah, you are confused about the sufism we are speaking of? Because it is clear that all mainstream scholars of Ahlus Sunnah are in agreement about the importance of tasawwuf.

Ibn Sina
08-08-07, 01:19 AM
I think the sister is referring to those deviant 'Sufis' .... Tassawuf is really about Dhikr not 'whirling dervishes' or what not ....

ImaanSeeker
08-08-07, 01:27 AM
I think the sister is referring to those deviant 'Sufis' .... Tassawuf is really about Dhikr not 'whirling dervishes' or what not ....

if that's the case, then no one here is defending those deviants. :up:

Medievalist
08-08-07, 09:54 AM
ImaanSeeker - ALLAH Ta'ala grant you comfort in this world and in the next bro - ameen

In regards this issue - it is sad that too often laypeople have misrepresented and misunderstood what Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah and Tasawwuf is. I know well the mentality of these people - they have an idea in their head and anything against it they flick away.

Undoubtedly we reject innovation and incorrect aspects that people have brought into tasawwuf but for a person to deny tasawwuf altogether really is very childish.

When Sayyidina Ibraheem and Sayyidina Ismaeel alayhimas salaam made du'a in the Haram whilst making Ta'meer of Baytullah - they made du'a for a Nabi to come to their offspring - ie Madani Kareem :saw: . ALLAH Ta'ala quotes that maqbool du'a in Suratul Baqarah and three qualities are asked for in regards the Nabi to come.

1. teach them the Book
2. and Wisdom
3. and purify them.

The Book is the Quran, the Wisdom is the Sunnah, and the Purification - we can call it tazkiyyah or islaah or tasawwuf - the label is unimportant, its substance is what matters.

People think that sufism is dancing at graves and eating plates of halwa - astaghfirullah. Thats the sufism that we reject. By us tasawwuf is to make muhaasabah of oneself, to make fikr e mawt, to learn about the lowly characters and strive to eliminate or subjugate them, to cultivate and nurture the noble characters.

Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah rejected the innovatory practices that people in his age had brought into Islaam under the guise of tasawwuf - but does that mean Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rejected tasawwuf/tazkiyyah? This is impossible - to reject this is to reject Islam and even the people on this thread who are chatting funny stories about tasawwuf - they themselves are thinking about the innovated garbage - not the real deal.

Someone asked Hadrat Shaykh rahimahullah that what is tasawwuf and his response - :allah: :allah: :

It's beginning is the hadeeth every action is upon its intention . . . till the end and its ending is hadeeth of Jibreel alayhis salaam that you worship ALLAH as though you see Him.

Bas - thats tasawwuf. Anything else - like club remixes, or rave sessions, or death festivals, or praying to graves etc aren't tasawwuf, they aren't sufism and they aren't tazkiyyah nor islaah or ihsaan.

In all honesty the only thing we can do is make du'a that ALLAH Ta'ala guide us to the truth. I used to be a "salafi" back in the day for a year or so and my jahaalat was immense. Today I look back and feel ashamed - based on a few books I read here and there I thought sufi = devil-worshipper whereas now - the stuff I rejected before as devil-worship I still reject, but I understand that tasawwuf (self purificatoin) is an integral part of Islaam.

*as a side note - people who use Ya Sufiyah as an insult are quite ignorant. To be a true Sufi is an honour. ALLAH qabul farmay - ameen

aboosait
08-08-07, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE]When Sayyidina Ibraheem and Sayyidina Ismaeel alayhimas salaam made du'a in the Haram whilst making Ta'meer of Baytullah - they made du'a for a Nabi to come to their offspring - ie Madani Kareem :saw: . ALLAH Ta'ala quotes that maqbool du'a in Suratul Baqarah and three qualities are asked for in regards the Nabi to come.

1. teach them the Book
2. and Wisdom
3. and purify them.



Kindly quote the verses or at least state the verse number.

Sunni Student
08-08-07, 01:46 PM
edit

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 02:40 PM
if Brelwis are not commiting shirk and bid'ah then I don't know who does !!

and they are definitly NOT the majority of the ummah !

Sunni Student
08-08-07, 02:59 PM
Lets actually try getting somewhere instead of making baseless comments..

If you are deobandi why not ask the likes of Mufti Ibn Adam Al Kawthari about the Brailwis?

Or if you are a sunni from anywhere else in the world why not ask the Sunni Aulama? If your Salafi well then you lot dont know anything other than screaming Shirk and Biddah, and its because you dond understand any of them!

And as i said before Brailwis is not the majority because they are not a sect! They are part of the Ahl-us-Sunnah, and almost all Sunni Aulama of the Arab world would say the same!

This is also the case with the Deobandis!

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 03:03 PM
I don't think sister asiya is denying karamat of awliya', for I think everyone believes that awliya' have karamat.
but to claim that one sees the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam while he is awake or in dream giving him some new revelation, like telling him to tell Muslims to pray some new salat, or something else from matters of deen... then that is deviancy, and their claim is not accepted.
the message of Islam is complete, and no one recieves wahy other than the Prophets sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

these deviants recieve wahy from shaytan.

Sunni Student
08-08-07, 03:05 PM
I don't think sister asiya is denying karamat of awliya', for I think everyone believes that awliya' have karamat.
but to claim that one sees the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam while he is awake or in dream giving him some new revelation, like telling him to tell Muslims to pray some new salat, or something else from matters of deen... then that is deviancy, and their claim is not accepted.
the message of Islam is complete, and no one recieves wahy other than the Prophets sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

these deviants recieve wahy from shaytan.

Just one comment on that:

Shaythaan cannot take the form of the Prophet [peace be upon him] in dreams!

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 03:05 PM
Brelwiyyah are a major deviant sect.
they are not ahl assunnah.

May Allah guide them to the sirat al mustaqim.
many of their laymen are ignorant and just follow their deviant misguided shaikhs, who feed them shirki and bid'i beliefs and practices.

MMS
08-08-07, 03:07 PM
I don't think sister asiya is denying karamat of awliya', for I think everyone believes that awliya' have karamat.
but to claim that one sees the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam while he is awake or in dream giving him some new revelation, like telling him to tell Muslims to pray some new salat, or something else from matters of deen... then that is deviancy, and their claim is not accepted.
the message of Islam is complete, and no one recieves wahy other than the Prophets sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

these deviants recieve wahy from shaytan.

she was talking about Shah Waliullah rh

Sunni Student
08-08-07, 03:08 PM
So name some of these deviant beliefs? and lets see if they are just the beliefs of the brailwis!

oh and about the dream..

Abu Huraira (ra) narrates: The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Whoever has seen me in a dream, has in fact seen me, for Satan does not appear in my form" (Sahih Muslim, vol. 4 p 1225 no 5635)

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 03:10 PM
Just one comment on that:

Shaythaan cannot take the form of the Prophet [peace be upon him] in dreams!

yes I know
that is why I said that their claim is not accepted
meaing their claim that they saw the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling them that.
meaning that they lied.
but seeing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in dream giving glad tiding to someone for example, then that is different, and it happens, and it is true.

Sunni Student
08-08-07, 03:18 PM
yes I know
that is why I said that their claim is not accepted
meaing their claim that they saw the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam telling them that.
meaning that they lied.
but seeing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in dream giving glad tiding to someone for example, then that is different, and it happens, and it is true.

"Many people saw Hafiz Ibn Taymiyya after his death in their dreams and asked him many difficult questions on issues of fiqh masaa'il and he replied to all their questions. Only those people can reject this who are ignorant of the status of the spirits (arwah)"

[Ibn al-Qayyim, Kitab ar-Ruh, end of chapter 3 ]

According to Ibn-Al-Qayyim people solved prooblems through Ibn Taymiyyah through dreams after his death, this is the Shaykh-ul-Islam of the Salafis, if this is the case for Ibn Taymiyyah then why cannot the Prophet [Peace be upon him] be seen in dreams giving advice to his pious followers?

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 05:05 PM
who said anything about advice?

I am talking about tashree'

salahuldin786
08-08-07, 05:11 PM
:up:the taliban are deobandi muslim's and the people in lal masjid are too.

salahuldin786
08-08-07, 05:20 PM
the founder of the tablighi jama'at, maulana ilyas, states "in my dream in the interpretation of the qur'ranic ayat:quntum khaira umma-tin ukhri-jat linn-na-se taa-mo-runa bil-ma'a-rouf-e wa tan ha-i na a-nil munkar wa ta'a-minun billahi,"I WAS TOLD I WAS SENT AS A PROPHET TO THE PEOPLE." (MULFOOZAAT-E-ILYAS. page 50)

is this true?

*asiya*
08-08-07, 05:39 PM
I don't think sister asiya is denying karamat of awliya', for I think everyone believes that awliya' have karamat.
but to claim that one sees the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam while he is awake or in dream giving him some new revelation, like telling him to tell Muslims to pray some new salat, or something else from matters of deen... then that is deviancy, and their claim is not accepted.
the message of Islam is complete, and no one recieves wahy other than the Prophets sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.

these deviants recieve wahy from shaytan. :jkk:


Just one comment on that:

Shaythaan cannot take the form of the Prophet [peace be upon him] in dreams! right as stated in the sahih hadith.


she was talking about Shah Waliullah rh


i dont know if that specific incident was referring to this shah u speak off ( because i cant go back into the threads seems to only go 28 pages back now) anyway i was told that this man had a cloak and when people put on his cloak they saw things and knew things that only this man could see because he was an awliyah apparently, heres some more stories about shah.


there are incidents when our Buzurgs have met with Ambiya alayhimus salaam in dreams and in wakefulness.

Further Shah Waliyullah rahimahullah is believed by some to be a Tabi'ee as it is narrated that he killed a snake after giving it the customary warning. The snake turned out to be a muslim jinn, Shah Waliyullah was taken by some jinnaat to their Sardaar and the court was in session. In his defence, Shah Waliyullah rahimahullah presented the hadeeth of the Nabi :saw: and the Sardaar Jinn radhiyallahu replied that "Had I not heard these words myself from the Nabi :saw: I would not have believed you" - Hence some believe Shah Waliyullah Muhaddith e Dehlawi to be a Tabi'ee.

SubhanALLAH!

1. People should stop talking about the conflict of Sayyidina Ali and Sayyidina Mu'awiyah lest we speak words of disrespect.

2. Debater should watch his tongue when speaking about Shah Waliyullah Muhaddith e Dehlawi.

3. People lacking roohaniyat will not understand the truth of islaah/tazkiyyah/tasawwuf.

4. Shah Waliyullah's name was Waliyullah **roll eyes**

5. The ulama are unanimous that dreams are not a basis for shari'ah - but narrating them in a context is permitted.

6. Shaytan cannot appear in the form of the Nabi :saw:

7. Finally a story about Shah Waliyullah's Mother's pregnancy. She was making du;a once whilst heavily pregnant with Hadrat and miraculously as her hands were held up supplicating, two tiny baby hands appeared from Her Womb and supplicated with her, SUBHANALLAH!

8. The Karamaat of the Awliyah are Haq and are signs of the Miracles of the Nabi :saw:



Innaa lillahi wa innaaa ilayhi raaji'oon.

I can't believe some people have a problem with Qaseedah Burdah Shareef. It's a sad day when people agitate over a naat. I haven't read the entire article in depth but only skimmed through it and you know what - these people who have an issue with the poem you are sad sad people. Imam Busayri rahimahullah was paralysed, he went to sleep one night reciting the poem out love for the Nabi :saw: - in the dream Nabi :saw: appeared and a cloak was left for Imam Busayri - in the morning he found the cloak with him and was cured.

People call this shirk - why do you people go to Dr and get medicine? That isn't shirk because you only see the medicine as a sabab - the true shifaa is from ALLAH Ta'ala. In the same way if miracles happen and people are cured then how weak is peoples faith that they deny it.

Swearing by the moon isn't in the same context as taking oaths :smack: - minor shirk. ALLAH Ta'ala knows the truth of these people and it is sufficient for us that the people with correct aqeedah have no issues with this poem - if these extreme people who have hijacked the way of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ibn AbdulWahhab et al. then that isn't going to bother us.

May ALLAH Ta'ala guide you and us to the love of the Prophet :saw:. May He Ta'ala guide us to the truth and prevent us from the falsehood - ameen

Abu Mus'ab
08-08-07, 05:59 PM
the founder of the tablighi jama'at, maulana ilyas, states "in my dream in the interpretation of the qur'ranic ayat:quntum khaira umma-tin ukhri-jat linn-na-se taa-mo-runa bil-ma'a-rouf-e wa tan ha-i na a-nil munkar wa ta'a-minun billahi,"I WAS TOLD I WAS SENT AS A PROPHET TO THE PEOPLE." (MULFOOZAAT-E-ILYAS. page 50)

is this true?
that's so blatantly fake.

perfectpearl
08-08-07, 06:13 PM
that's so blatantly fake.

Thats what i was thinking :scratch:

Medievalist
08-08-07, 06:25 PM
i dont know if that specific incident was referring to this shah u speak off ( because i cant go back into the threads seems to only go 28 pages back now) anyway i was told that this man had a cloak and when people put on his cloak they saw things and knew things that only this man could see because he was an awliyah apparently, heres some more stories about shah.

"This man" who you are referring to I never said that Shah Waliullah Muhaddith Dehlawi rahimahullah was the Hadrat with the cloak. **roll eyes**

Secondly I've told you before as well but it appears you are having difficulty understanding me - in this light I wash my hands of you and your disrespectful nature.

Asiyah- Im putting you on ignore because you're words of mockery/be-adabi/disrespect for Shah Waliyullah rahimahullah are not something Im interested in reading.

:salams

Medievalist
08-08-07, 06:30 PM
What is with people that they deny the miracles of ALLAH's religion. When Hadrat Mahdee alayhi ridhwaan comes how will this people be able to believe him? When Hadrat Isa alayhis salaam descends from the heavens how will these people believe it?

ALLAH hidaayat naseeb farmay - ameen.

For the record - I bear witness that the karamaat and mu'jizaat of the Awliyah ALLAH are true. The Awliyah are upon our heads and I distance myself from those who mock at the Friends of ALLAH and express affection and love for those who are Friends of ALLAH.

These people are a weird breed - ALLAH Ta'ala alone knows whether they believe in the miracles that occur in battlefields or in madaaris or in other parts of the world. Perhaps if these people were alive in the time of the conquer of Bahrain they would have accused the Muslim Army of allying with the devil and hence they were able to cross the sea on their horses. Perhaps if these people had seen the letter from Sayyidina Umar written to the River Nile they would have accused this action of shirk or laid accusation of sorcery? ALLAH Ta'ala knows best - but indeed its true there are some khawaarij here today and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ibn Qayyim, Imam Ibn AbdulWahhab are free from these people.

MMS
08-08-07, 06:35 PM
What is with people that they deny the miracles of ALLAH's religion. When Hadrat Mahdee alayhi ridhwaan comes how will this people be able to believe him? When Hadrat Isa alayhis salaam descends from the heavens how will these people believe it?

ALLAH hidaayat naseeb farmay - ameen.

For the record - I bear witness that the karamaat and mu'jizaat of the Awliyah ALLAH are true. The Awliyah are upon our heads and I distance myself from those who mock at the Friends of ALLAH and express affection and love for those who are Friends of ALLAH.

These people are a weird breed - ALLAH Ta'ala alone knows whether they believe in the miracles that occur in battlefields or in madaaris or in other parts of the world. Perhaps if these people were alive in the time of the conquer of Bahrain they would have accused the Muslim Army of allying with the devil and hence they were able to cross the sea on their horses. Perhaps if these people had seen the letter from Sayyidina Umar written to the River Nile they would have accused this action of shirk or laid accusation of sorcery? ALLAH Ta'ala knows best - but indeed its true there are some khawaarij here today and Imam Ibn Taymiyyah, Imam Ibn Qayyim, Imam Ibn AbdulWahhab are free from these people.

they think the miracles of the awliya is some sufi specific beleif that is why they reject it, not knowing that the miracles of the awliya is a belief of ahlus sunnah

thats what i gathered anyhoot

Medievalist
08-08-07, 06:41 PM
they think the miracles of the awliya is some sufi specific beleif that is why they reject it, not knowing that the miracles of the awliya is a belief of ahlus sunnah

thats what i gathered anyhoot

You know whats saddest - these street salafis are the ones who have given a bad name to the true Salafi Ulama. I remember being in a shop once and was having a convo with the shop owner, in the convo it became clear that I'm hanafi. Suddenly a street salafi - a white revert - buts in and goes bro you know those Imams weren't all that. Ahmad bin Hambal knew a million weak hadeeth.

I was about to kick off - but I told him he doesn't knw what he's on about and its best for him to keep his mouth shut in my convo and left.


People like that really are disappointing. Another point to note is that - yes indeed the Literalists are AhlusSunnahWalJama'ah - but they have always been a minor branch, the majority have always been Muqallideen of one of the Four Madhaahib. Today some ignorant people try to make out that they alone are the saved sect and the speakers for Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

Unfortunately sometimes our kattar Sunni bros get a bit intimidated by these people because unlike us - they are very confident in condeming people.

SUFFICE - Bros and Ladies who follow the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah dont worry about the loudmouths who seem so confident in everything. Believe in ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: - maintain respect for the Ulama and the Saints and the Symbols of ALLAH's religion.

Ibn Sina
08-08-07, 06:44 PM
they think the miracles of the awliya is some sufi specific beleif that is why they reject it, not knowing that the miracles of the awliya is a belief of ahlus sunnah

thats what i gathered anyhoot

Who the Salafis?

Saeed Al-Muslim
08-08-07, 06:44 PM
There are many "Salaafi's" who follow a Madhab.

Anyways, this thread has become a fitnah. Insha'Allaah, can the moderators plaese close it.

Jazaak Allaahu khair.

Ma'aSalaama

MMS
08-08-07, 06:49 PM
Who the Salafis?

not all salafis deny the miracles of the awliya :)

Ibn Sina
08-08-07, 06:55 PM
not all salafis deny the miracles of the awliya :)

Oy I know sis, Ibn Taymiyyah (rh) has written about it in his kittab Aqeedatul-Waasitiyyah:


Karamat Al-Awliya' (The Miracles of the Saints)
Among the fundamentals of the people of the Sunnah and the Community is the belief in the miracles of the saints (Karamat al- Awliya): Allah created supernatural acts through them in all aspects of life, revelations (Mukashafat), power, and impressions. This is known of ancient nations in Surat al-Kahf (chapter 18) and in other Qur'anic chapters and is known of the early men of this 'Ummah amongst the Sahabah and the Tabi'un and amongst the rest of the generations of this 'Ummah. It will be with them to the Day of Resurrection.( Aqeedatul-Waasitiyyah p.13 (http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=AQD04&articleID=AQD040003&articlePages=13))

perfectpearl
08-08-07, 08:27 PM
You know whats saddest - these street salafis are the ones who have given a bad name to the true Salafi Ulama. I remember being in a shop once and was having a convo with the shop owner, in the convo it became clear that I'm hanafi. Suddenly a street salafi - a white revert - buts in and goes bro you know those Imams weren't all that. Ahmad bin Hambal knew a million weak hadeeth.

I was about to kick off - but I told him he doesn't knw what he's on about and its best for him to keep his mouth shut in my convo and left.


People like that really are disappointing. Another point to note is that - yes indeed the Literalists are AhlusSunnahWalJama'ah - but they have always been a minor branch, the majority have always been Muqallideen of one of the Four Madhaahib. Today some ignorant people try to make out that they alone are the saved sect and the speakers for Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

Unfortunately sometimes our kattar Sunni bros get a bit intimidated by these people because unlike us - they are very confident in condeming people.

SUFFICE - Bros and Ladies who follow the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah dont worry about the loudmouths who seem so confident in everything. Believe in ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: - maintain respect for the Ulama and the Saints and the Symbols of ALLAH's religion.


Bro,

Maybe he was just giving you advice. I know sometimes people say things the wrong way but he only would say something like only as advice.

Many people misinterpret what a hadith means. Maybe thats what he meant. Allahu Alam. :confused:

The true Salafis are the ones at the time of the Prophet (saw). We are all ataba3 el salaf ( the followers of the salaf).

Saeed Al-Muslim
08-08-07, 08:30 PM
Attidue of Ahl as-Sunnah Towards Those who follow Their Whims and Desires and who Follow Innovations (bida’)

“There is no Prophet whom Allaah sent to any nation before me, but he had from among his ummah disciples and companions who followed his path and obeyed his commands. Then after their (ther Prophets’) death, there came generations who would say things that they did not do, and did things that he Prophets never told them to do. Whoever strives against them with his hand is a believer, and whoever strives against them with his tongue is a believer, and whoever strives against them with his heart is a believer, but there is no faith after that, not even a mustard-seed’s worth." [Saheeh Sunan Abi Dawood by Al-Baani]

“At the end of my ummah there will be people who will tell you things of which you and your fathers have never heard; beware of them and avoid them.” [Muslim]

“... This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion...” [Al-Qur’an 5:3]

“Whoever innovates anything in this matter of ours (Islam) that is not part of it will have it rejected.”

“Whoever does an action that is not in accordance with this matter of ours will have it rejected.” [Ibid]

“The best of speech is the Book of Allaah and the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad. The worse of things are those which are newly-invented and every innovation is going astray.” [Muslim]

“There is no innovator in this world who does not hate the people of hadith, and when a man follows innovation he will no longer have any interest in hadith.” [At-Tadhikirah by Imaam An-Nawawi]

“The signs of the followers of Bid’ah is that they slander the people of hadeeth. The sign of the zindeeqs is that they regard the people of hadeeth as those who think of Allaah in physical terms, aiming thereby to cast aspersions upon the reports. The sign of the Jahamiyah is that they call Ahls as-Sunnah anthropomorphists . The sign of the Qadaryah is that they call Ahl as-Sunnah, mujabbirah (those who believe that man has no free will). The sign of the Mujri’ah is that they call Ahl as-Sunnah those who are different and imperfect. The signs of the Raafidis is that they call Ahl as-Sunnah, naasbiah (enemies of Ahl al-Bayt). But Ahl as-Sunnah have only one name, and it is impossible that they could have all these names.” [Asl as-Sunnah wa I’tiqaad ad-Deen by Ar-Raazi]

[b]Advice from the Imaams of the Salaf warning against the people of Bid’ah

Ameer al-Mu;mineen ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (ra) said:

“There will come a people who will argue with you, quoting the ambiguous texts of the Qur’an. Refer them to the people who know about the Sunnah, for those who have knowledge of the Sunnah are the most knowledgeable about the Book of Allaah.” [Narrated by Imam al-Laalkaa’i in Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah, and by Ibn Battah in Al-Ibaanah]

It is narrated that ‘Abd-Allah ibn ‘Umar said to the person who asked him about those who deny al-qadar (the devine Will and decree):
“If you meet them, then tell them that Ibn ‘Umar has nothing to do with them, and they have nothing to do with him,” three times.” [Ibid]

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas (ra) said:

“Do not sit with those who follow their whims and desires, for sitting with them will be sickness in your heart.” [Ibid]

The scholar and ascetic(zaahid) Al-Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“As for the one who follows bid’as, do not trust him with regards to matters of your relgion, do not consult him with regards to your affairs, and do not sit with him, for whoever sits with a follow of bid’as, Allaah will cause him to become blind” – i.e., in his heart. [Ibid]

Imaam Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Allaah never permits one who follows his whims and desires to repent.” [Narrated by Imaam al-Laalkaa’i in Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahl as-Sunnah wa-Jamaa’ah]

Imam ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“O’ Allaah, do not let me owe any favours to one who follows bid’ah or my heart love him.” [Ibid]

The leading scholar in hadith Sufyaan ath-Thawari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“whoever sits and listens to a follower of bid’ah knowing that he is a follower of bid’ah will lose the protection of Allaah and will be left to his own devices.” [Narrated by Ibn Waddaah in Al-Bida’h wan-Nahi ‘anha]

Imaam al-awzaa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Do not let the followers of bid’ah present his argument to you, because this will generate confusion in your heart.” [Ibid]

Muhammad ibn Seereen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“When a man introduces bid’ah, he will never go back to the Sunnah.” [Narrated by Imam Muslim in the introduction to his Saheeh]

Imam Maalik ibn Anas (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Do not give your womenfolk in marriage to the people of bid’ah, and do not marry their womenfolk, and do not greet them with salaam.” [Al-Mudawwanah al-Kubra Imaam Maalik]

It was narrated by Imaam Ash-Shaaf’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) heard some people talking about philosophy, and he shouted at them, saying:

“Either be good neighbours to us, or go away.”

The Imam of Ahl as-Sunnah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“As for those who follow innovation and their own whims and desires, their help should not be sought in any of the Muslims’ affairs, for that is more harmful to the religion.” [Manaaqib al-Imam Ahmad by Ibn al-Jaqzi]

And he also said:

“beware of all innovations, and do not consult any of the people of bid’ah with regards to matters of your religion.” [Ibid]

Imaam ‘Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Mahdi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Amongst those who follow their whims and desires there are none more evil than the Jahamiyah, for they suggest that there is no one in heaven. I think that we should not intermarry with them or inherit from them.” [Kitaab as-Sunnah by ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Imam Ahmad] Not intermingling or inheriting is a sign that they are to be treated in the same way as kaafirs. (Translator.)

Abu Qalaabah al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Do not sit with those who follow their whims and desires, for even if you do not adopt their opinions they still make you confused about what you believe.” [Ibn Battah in Al-Ibaanah]

Ayyoob as-Sakhtiyaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“Those who follow their whims and desires are the people of misguidance, and I do not think they will have any fate except Hell.” [Narrated by Ibn Battah in Al-Ibaanah]

Abu Yoosuf al-Qaadi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“I do not pray behind a Jahami, a Raafadi or a Qadari.” [Narrated by Imam al-Laalkaa’i in Sharh Usool I’tiqaad ahl As-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah]

Shaykh al-Islam Abu ‘Uthman Isma’eel as-Saabooni (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“The signs of those who follow bid’ah are obvious. There most obvious sign is their intense hatred for those who transmitted the reports of the Prophet (saw), whom they call anthropomorphists, ignorant and literalists; they believe that the reports do not constitute knowledge and that knowledge is the result of their false reasoning which the Shaytaan has given to them and insinuated into their darkened hearts.” [Narrated by Imam al-Laalkaa’i in Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah]

Imam Ash-Shaafi’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) explained the ruling on those who follow innovation and their whims and desires when he said:

“My ruling on those who engage in philosophy (kalam) is that they should be beaten with palm stalks and carried on camels and taken around the tribes, and it should be said, ‘This is the punishment for those who forsake the Qur’an and the Sunnah and adopt philosophy.’” [Sharh as-Sunnah by Imam al-Baghawi]

Abu Muhammad al-Husayn ibn Mas’ood ibn al-Farraa’ al-Baghawi said:

“The Sahaabah, Taabi’een, their followers and the scholars of the Sunnah are all agreed that the followers of bid’ah are to be taken as enemies and forsaken.” [Ibid]

Imam Ismaa’eel as-Saabooni narrated in his valuable book ‘Aqeedah as-Salaf Ashaab al-Hadeeth that the Ahl as-Sunnah are unanimously agreed that the following of bid’ah are to be suppressed and humiliated. After listing their opinions, he said:

“These quotations, which we have referred to above, represent the beliefs of all of them, and they do not differ from one another in this regard, rather they are unanimously agreed upon this, and they agree that the followers of bid’ah are to be suppressed, humiliated, shamed, rejected and shunned. We should avoid befriending them and mixing with them, and we should believe that trying to avoid and forsake them is a means to drawing closer to Allaah.” [Ibid]

Source: Islamic Beliefs; A Brief Introduction on ‘Aqeedah of Assunnah wal-Jama’ah by ‘Abd-Allah al-Athari. Chapter 10, Pages 187 – 199.

ImaanSeeker
08-08-07, 08:30 PM
ImaanSeeker - ALLAH Ta'ala grant you comfort in this world and in the next bro - ameen

In regards this issue - it is sad that too often laypeople have misrepresented and misunderstood what Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah and Tasawwuf is. I know well the mentality of these people - they have an idea in their head and anything against it they flick away.

Undoubtedly we reject innovation and incorrect aspects that people have brought into tasawwuf but for a person to deny tasawwuf altogether really is very childish.

When Sayyidina Ibraheem and Sayyidina Ismaeel alayhimas salaam made du'a in the Haram whilst making Ta'meer of Baytullah - they made du'a for a Nabi to come to their offspring - ie Madani Kareem :saw: . ALLAH Ta'ala quotes that maqbool du'a in Suratul Baqarah and three qualities are asked for in regards the Nabi to come.

1. teach them the Book
2. and Wisdom
3. and purify them.

The Book is the Quran, the Wisdom is the Sunnah, and the Purification - we can call it tazkiyyah or islaah or tasawwuf - the label is unimportant, its substance is what matters.

People think that sufism is dancing at graves and eating plates of halwa - astaghfirullah. Thats the sufism that we reject. By us tasawwuf is to make muhaasabah of oneself, to make fikr e mawt, to learn about the lowly characters and strive to eliminate or subjugate them, to cultivate and nurture the noble characters.

Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah rejected the innovatory practices that people in his age had brought into Islaam under the guise of tasawwuf - but does that mean Imam Ibn Taymiyyah rejected tasawwuf/tazkiyyah? This is impossible - to reject this is to reject Islam and even the people on this thread who are chatting funny stories about tasawwuf - they themselves are thinking about the innovated garbage - not the real deal.

Someone asked Hadrat Shaykh rahimahullah that what is tasawwuf and his response - :allah: :allah: :

It's beginning is the hadeeth every action is upon its intention . . . till the end and its ending is hadeeth of Jibreel alayhis salaam that you worship ALLAH as though you see Him.

Bas - thats tasawwuf. Anything else - like club remixes, or rave sessions, or death festivals, or praying to graves etc aren't tasawwuf, they aren't sufism and they aren't tazkiyyah nor islaah or ihsaan.

In all honesty the only thing we can do is make du'a that ALLAH Ta'ala guide us to the truth. I used to be a "salafi" back in the day for a year or so and my jahaalat was immense. Today I look back and feel ashamed - based on a few books I read here and there I thought sufi = devil-worshipper whereas now - the stuff I rejected before as devil-worship I still reject, but I understand that tasawwuf (self purificatoin) is an integral part of Islaam.

*as a side note - people who use Ya Sufiyah as an insult are quite ignorant. To be a true Sufi is an honour. ALLAH qabul farmay - ameen

Ameen.

Top post, MashaAllah.


not all salafis deny the miracles of the awliya :)

There are so many different types of salafis nowadays, i get :confused: as to which one holds which beliefs.

(*_Hamzah
08-08-07, 08:53 PM
Let's start from the beginning:

Maulana Muhammad Ilyas Sahab Kandahlawi (RAH)

Maulana Muhammad Ilyas, the founder of the Tablighi Jama’at of South Asian subcontinent, is arguably one of the most influential, yet least well-known , figures of the twentieth century Islam. Despite his enormous contribution towards the development of a powerful grass root Islamic Da’wah movement, Mawlana Ilyas has not received much attention in the literature on modern Islamic movements. Most of the Western, and even Muslim, scholarships have remain occupied with the more spectacular and dramatic manifest ions of Islamic revivalist upsurge. The available literature on Maulana Ilyas and his Tablighi movement is mostly in Urdu and that too consists mainly of inspirational works by its leaders and devotional writings by its followers and supporters.

Mawlana Ilyas was born in 1885 in a small town in the United Province of British India in a family of religious scholars. He received his early religious education at home and later went to the famous center of Islamic education in Deoband where he studied the Qur’an, Hadith, Fiqh and other Islamic sciences under the early Deoband luminaries. After completing his education at Deoband, Mawlana Ilyas took up a teaching position at another famous Madarsah Mazaharul Uloom in Saharanpur (U.P., India)

It was at this point in his life that Mawlana Ilyas became aware of the "dismal Islamic situation" in the Mewat region near Delhi where majority of Muslims were living a life that had very little to do with Islamic teachings and practices. Mawlana Ilyas sent several of his disciples to Mewat to survey the situation and later himself undertook many Da’wah trips there. Mawlana Ilyas met Mewati Muslims who could not even recite Shahadah and who had not prayed even once in their life because they did not know how to pray. He saw Muslims greeting each other in a typical Hindu manner; some had even adopted Hindu deities and visited Hindu temples to participate in devotional practices.

Mawlana Ilyas fully aware of the difficult task ahead was, nevertheless, determined to bring the Meo Muslims back to the fold of true Islam. In the early 1920s, he prepared a team of young Madrasa graduates from Deoband and Saharanpur and sent them to Mewat to establish a network of Masajid and Madrasas throughout the region. He soon realized, however, that the Madrasa ulama trained in the Deoband tradition were simply reproducing their prototypes and had no significant impact on society at large. Mawlana Ilyas concluded that these Madrasas were ill-equipped to produce Muslim preachers who would be willing to go door to door and remind people of their Islamic obligations. These institution were good only for producing religious functionaries, not Da’wah workers.

It was because dissatisfaction with the Madrasas that Mawlana Ilyas resigned from a prestigious teaching position at Madrasa Mazaharul Uloom in Saharanpur and came to Basti Nizamuddin in the old quarters of Delhi to begin his Da’wah. The Tablighi movement was born in this place in 1926. Basti Nzamuddin became his permanent residence as well as the headquarter of the Tablighi movement.

The new movement met with dramatic success in relatively short period of time, thanks to Mawlana Ilyas’s utmost devotion, untiring efforts and sincerity of purpose. As a result many Muslims joined Mawlana Ilyas to preach the message of Islam in every town and village of Mewat. The rapid success of his efforts can be seen from the fact that the first Tablighi conference held in November 1941 in Mewat was attended by 25,000 people many of them had walked on foot for ten to fifteen miles to attend the conference.

Mawlana Ilyas was neither a charismatic leader like Mawlana Mohammad Ali Jauhar of the Khilafat movement, nor an outstanding religious scholar like Abul Kalam Azad of the Indian National Congress. He was not even a good public speaker like Ataullah Shah Bukhari of the Ahrar movement.

Physically frail and intellectually unassuming, Mawlana Ilyas was, nevertheless, enthused with the zeal of a dedicated Da’wah worker. His passion to reach out to the Muslim masses and touch them with the message of the Qur’an and Sunnah knew no bounds.

Like a true missionary, he was persistent, untiring, and whole-heartedly devoted to his cause. During one of his many missionary tours of Mewat, he was once hit with a stick by a peasant upon whom he was impressing the importance of leading a religious life. The Mawlana, already physically frail, fell on the ground and collapsed. When he regained consciousness, he got up and, holding his assistant affectionately, said: "Look, you have done your job. Now would you let me do my job and listen to me for a little while?" As one of his colleague put it, "Mawlana Ilyas, though a mere skeleton, can work wonders where he takes up anything."

His eagerness and indomitable determination to reach every Muslim and remind him of his obligations as a believer took precedence on every thing else. His passionate concern for the spiritual welfare of his fellow Muslims caused him great anguish. A friend once came to visit him while he was on his deathbed. Mawlana Ilyas greeted his friend by telling him. " People out there are burning in the fire of ignorance and you are wasting your time here inquiring after my health!"

He wanted every Muslim to be on his feet, preaching the message of Islam to others. He exerted his friends and followers to dedicate their lives to this cause. Once when he was trying to peruse his audience to volunteer for a missionary trip to Kanpur, U.P. India, not a single person responded to his call. Spotting one of his friends in the audience, Mawlana Ilyas asked him what prevented him from going to Kanpur. His friend was suffering from serious ailment and was obviously too weak to travel. He told Maulana Ilyas that he was "almost dying" and there was no way he could travel. The Mawlana said, "If you are dying already, you had better die in Kanpur."

It is important to note that while Mawlana Ilyas kept himself completely aloof from politics of the day and focused his program of action exclusively on making the Muslims aware of their religious obligations, he did not, at any time, criticized those Islamic groups which were actively engaged in politics. On the contrary, he maintained extremely cordial relations with Hussain Ahmad Madani and other Ulama of Deoband school whose political organization, Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind, a pro-Indian National Congress group, was very much active in Indian politics. Mawlana Ilyas had equally warm relation with pro-Pakistan faction of the Deoband school led by Mawlana Ashraf Ali Thanvi and Mawlana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani. However he refused to take any position on the issue of united India vs. a separate Muslim state of Pakistan for the obvious reason that this would distract his movement from its main religious tasks, and would also create dissensions within its ranks. Mawlana Ilyas was of the view that the Tablighi movement and the politically-oriented Islamic groups, although operating in two different spheres, were complementing each other’s work and hence there should be no competition and rivalry between them.

Once when someone pointed out that his movement was "too narrowly focused" and did not address the larger issue of socio-political reforms in Muslim society, the Mawlana responded that this narrow focus in the initial phase of the movement was necessitated by the available manpower and that the movement could grow to encompass a larger and more comprehensive program in the future. It is unfortunate that those who succeeded Mawlana Ilyas did not realize his larger vision and saw the Mewat model of Da’wah as eternally fixed. Nevertheless, the fruits of Mawlana Ilyas’s efforts are visible all over the world today.

Medievalist
08-08-07, 09:13 PM
Bro,

Maybe he was just giving you advice. I know sometimes people say things the wrong way but he only would say something like only as advice.

Many people misinterpret what a hadith means. Maybe thats what he meant. Allahu Alam. :confused:

The true Salafis are the ones at the time of the Prophet (saw). We are all ataba3 el salaf ( the followers of the salaf).

Bro - I was there. He meant to insult Imam Ahmad rahimahullah -

"Bro Ahamd bin Hambal knew a million weak hadeeths"

Get a life loser. **roll eyes**

Medievalist
08-08-07, 09:20 PM
Hamzah - :jkk: for the article about Ml. Ilyas Sahib rahimahullah. I think the article had one slight flaw - it didnt explain enough about Ml. Ilyas character.

Indeed he wasn't an orator, Ml. suffered from a stammer, but :allah: :allah: - his taqwa was immense. Hadrat Shaykh's Aap Beti - gives a very good insight. :up:

Abu Mus'ab
08-08-07, 09:27 PM
Bro - I was there. He meant to insult Imam Ahmad rahimahullah -

"Bro Ahamd bin Hambal knew a million weak hadeeths"

Get a life loser. **roll eyes**
erm perfectpearl is a sister :scratch:

Medievalist
08-08-07, 09:37 PM
erm perfectpearl is a sister :scratch:

thank you for that insightful comment hafizjee **roll eyes**

perfectpearl
08-08-07, 09:41 PM
Bro - I was there. He meant to insult Imam Ahmad rahimahullah -

"Bro Ahamd bin Hambal knew a million weak hadeeths"

Get a life loser. **roll eyes**

Only Allah knows his intention. Remember to make excuses for your bro..


erm perfectpearl is a sister :scratch:

:up:


thank you for that insightful comment hafizjee **roll eyes**

his right... :rolleyes:

Um Abdullah
08-08-07, 10:07 PM
in regards to this story



Further Shah Waliyullah rahimahullah is believed by some to be a Tabi'ee as it is narrated that he killed a snake after giving it the customary warning. The snake turned out to be a muslim jinn, Shah Waliyullah was taken by some jinnaat to their Sardaar and the court was in session. In his defence, Shah Waliyullah rahimahullah presented the hadeeth of the Nabi and the Sardaar Jinn radhiyallahu replied that "Had I not heard these words myself from the Nabi I would not have believed you" - Hence some believe Shah Waliyullah Muhaddith e Dehlawi to be a Tabi'ee.



do jinn live that long?
and would jinn be considered sahabah and such?

and have any scholars of past said such a thing?
that jinn can be sahabah and one seeing those jinn is considered a tabi'ee?

HighDreamer
08-08-07, 10:20 PM
I don't understand what this debate is about?

We, the Muslims are a strange lot.

We are divided between Salafis, Ahl-e-Bayt, Shias, Hanbalis, Hanafis, Shaafaees, Malikis, etc.

At the same time, we are divided between Kashmiris, Libyans, Syrians, Pakistanis, Indians, Malay, Palestinians, Egyptians, Saudis, Persians, Iraqis, Yemenis, Chechens, and not to forget our brothers finding newer identities in western countries too like British, Danish, American, Black-power, Canadian, etc.

So much of difference of opinions on political issues, and religious issues of extremities.

Why can't we be Muslim first? Why can't we love a person who simply says the Shahadah? Why do we have to find faults with him/her in matters of lifestyle, when we are ourselves at fault? We talk of armies and arms and ammunitions and destruction and defense of Muslim lands, when we have ourselves failed to realize that we are divided into Arabs, Non-Arabs, and a million other identities and we fail to accept and love other Muslims on grounds of racism, regionalism, etc.

aboosait
09-08-07, 12:35 AM
that's so blatantly fake.



Originally Posted by salahuldin786
the founder of the tablighi jama'at, maulana ilyas, states "in my dream in the interpretation of the qur'ranic ayat:quntum khaira umma-tin ukhri-jat linn-na-se taa-mo-runa bil-ma'a-rouf-e wa tan ha-i na a-nil munkar wa ta'a-minun billahi,"I WAS TOLD I WAS SENT AS A PROPHET TO THE PEOPLE." (MULFOOZAAT-E-ILYAS. page 50)

What is fake?



What is quoted in MULFOOZAAT-E-ILYAS. page 50 (The allegation on the founder of the tablighi jama'at, maulana ilyas)

OR

The claim by the founder of the tablighi jama'at, maulana ilyas, that he dreanmt ......

aboosait
09-08-07, 12:52 AM
Top post, MashaAllah.

But in this top post is also a statement by Medievalist:

[QUOTE]...........ALLAH Ta'ala quotes that maqbool du'a in Suratul Baqarah and three qualities are asked for in regards the Nabi to come.

1. teach them the Book
2. and Wisdom
3. and purify them.

He has not mentioned where exactly this verse appears in 'Suratul Baqarah' ( Even after my asking him he has not given the verse number).

Seeing your applause, I suppose you are aware of it. Please therefore take the trouble of mentioning the verse number if such a verse is there in the Surah mentioned.

aboosait
09-08-07, 01:09 AM
[QUOTE]There are so many different types of salafis nowadays, i get :confused: as to which one holds which beliefs.

Each one of us has to answer individually on the day of resurrection.

We will not be asked "as to which one holds which beliefs".

So let us not worry about it but let us try to correct our own belief and actions and to help others also in this direction.



"The first thing that the Muslim needs to know is how to read the Qur’an properly (with tajwid) and to understand its meaning.

Then he should learn something of the sciences of hadith, the sirah of the Prophet (s.a.w.s.), and the history of the Sahabah and Tabi‘in, who are prominent figures in Islam.

He should acquire as much knowledge of fiqh as he needs to ensure that his worship and daily dealings are correct, and he should ensure that he has a sound grasp of the basic principles of his religion.

This is the duty of the Muslim who is not a specialist in the sciences of Shari‘ah. If he is a specialist in a branch of Shari‘ah, then he does what every true Muslim should do, which is to do his best to learn his specialty thoroughly and be successful in it.

It goes without saying that every Muslim also needs to learn Arabic properly.

Besides this, the Muslim turns to his own specialty and gives it all of his energy and pays a great deal of attention to it.

He approaches it like a Muslim who believes that it is a religious obligation to work in his field of specialization, whether it is in Shari‘ah or in another area of religious knowledge, or in another field such as mathematics, physics, chemistry, engineering, astronomy, medicine, industry, commerce, etc.

Therefore he should become proficient in whatever field he has specialized in, and should spare no effort to read whatever has been written about it, both in his own language and in others if he is able to.

He should keep abreast of developments in his field through continual reading and study of all its aspects.

This is because, in these times, the smart Muslim is the one who achieves great academic success, which will raise his status in the eyes of other people.

This in turn will enhance his da‘wah, so long as he presents it sincerely and earnestly, and in accordance with the spirit of Islam and its teachings about knowledge.

Islam has made knowledge a duty, whereby the one who seeks it draws closer to Allah (S.W.T.) and adopts it as a means of earning His pleasure.

So we see that the scholars of the early generation used to emphasize these sublime principles in their introductions to their books, because through the knowledge that they spent their lives spreading, they were seeking to earn the pleasure of Allah (S.W.T.), and they presented the results of their study purely for His sake."


Exerpts from an article by Dr. Muhammad ‘Ali Al-Hashimi.

aboosait
09-08-07, 01:45 AM
............................but seeing the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam in dream giving glad tiding to someone for example, then that is different, and it happens, and it is true.

If one of the Sahaba said he saw the Prophet Sallahu Alaihi Wasallam in a dream it must be true for two reasons:

1. S/he has seen him in real life and can recognize him Sallallahu Alaih Wasallam.

2. The shaitan cannot take the form of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallm.

Not so in the case of someone in the present age claiming that he saw the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam in his dream because,

1. S/he has not seen him in real life and can mistake any handsome looking person dressed like an Arab to be him Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam.

2. Shaitan cannot take the form of the Prophet and therefore appears in the form of a well dressed handsome Arab. Our passionate dreamer who has not seen the Prophet in real life mistakes this 'handsome Arab' to be the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam.

aboosait
09-08-07, 01:49 AM
[QUOTE][Ibn al-Qayyim, Kitab ar-Ruh, end of chapter 3 ]

Would you mind telling us who wrote this book, and who are the publishers?

Medievalist
09-08-07, 10:44 AM
[QUOTE=ImaanSeeker;2056489]



But in this top post is also a statement by Medievalist:



He has not mentioned where exactly this verse appears in 'Suratul Baqarah' ( Even after my asking him he has not given the verse number).

Seeing your applause, I suppose you are aware of it. Please therefore take the trouble of mentioning the verse number if such a verse is there in the Surah mentioned.


I'll provide the verse number of Surah Baqarah in the evening today inshaALLAH.

But you surprise me AbooSait - you seem to know so much about which hadeeth is fabricated and which weak and which whatever, you seem to have indepth knowledge about so much of Islam yet you are unaware of what Surah Baqarah has to say about Nabi :saw: ? ajeeb

Um Abdullah
09-08-07, 10:58 AM
bro Medivalist

be easy on our sister Asiya, she did't mean insult, but she might have never read stories like that about karamat, might be something new to her and I would have thought same thing as her if I didn't have much knowledge about such things, and there are many very strange and shocking stories out there in which people claim to be "karamat" and awliya' of Allah are free from such stuff (not speaking of shah waliullah for I do not know him, but I am speaking in general), check this link and you will know what type of stories I am speaking about:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136269


as scholars of past said, that one shouldn't be fooled by one walking on water or flying in the air, and to judge them by Quran and Sunnah.
That is how one knows if a person is from awliya' of Allah or not.

MMS
09-08-07, 11:10 AM
i thought shah waliullah was very respected amongst the salafis, infact many salafis believe shah waliullah was a salafi :S

Twinkle
09-08-07, 12:20 PM
mms: i love ur signature, its so beautiful :inlove: :crying2:

ps: sorry for going of topic. it just had to be said

aboosait
09-08-07, 01:03 PM
mms: i love ur signature, its so beautiful :inlove: :crying2:

ps: sorry for going of topic. it just had to be said

Me too going off-topic. What religion is "muscle-man"?


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aboosait
09-08-07, 01:15 PM
[QUOTE]I'll provide the verse number of Surah Baqarah in the evening today inshaALLAH.




:jkk:

Awaiting your valuable post

:insha:

Um Abdullah
09-08-07, 01:29 PM
The ayah bro Medievalist is speaking about is
129 in surat al Baqarah
2:129

*asiya*
09-08-07, 01:31 PM
bro Medivalist

be easy on our sister Asiya, she did't mean insult, but she might have never read stories like that about karamat, might be something new to her and I would have thought same thing as her if I didn't have much knowledge about such things, and there are many very strange and shocking stories out there in which people claim to be "karamat" and awliya' of Allah are free from such stuff (not speaking of shah waliullah for I do not know him, but I am speaking in general), check this link and you will know what type of stories I am speaking about:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136269


as scholars of past said, that one shouldn't be fooled by one walking on water or flying in the air, and to judge them by Quran and Sunnah.
That is how one knows if a person is from awliya' of Allah or not.

:jkk: its alright ukhti im used to meds insults, bro med you usually personally insult people when they dont agree with you, and you should be careful about that because as you know in one narration it is a sign of hypocrisy to insult when you disagree.

I take my deen only from the daleel of the Quran and sahih sunnah, Islam freed me from the beleif in supersitions and fairy tales about flying people, people walking on water, and people with "mystical powers" such stories do not impress me at all. nor do they make me think highly of a person who claims this sort of thing, i am more likely to think he is a faker for why if he had some miracle from Allah ta ala is he/she telling everyone about it ? for fame ? for glory ? why ? there is no need to advertise themselves as "something special" this is the mistake of the people before us. who began to woship the righteous men who had died before them after shaitan wshipered to the,

They attribute to men what comes from Allah ta ala. They think these men are somehow special but any muslim knows that only Allah ta ala is the one who can help us, as the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said when Allah wishes to do good to a person he gives them knowledge and understanding of the religion. so this shaikh waliyahs mother claims his hands popped out of her stomach and started praying with her.. you know what i dont beleive her, because i spent years sitting with such people, who claim such stories, and i can see right through them Alhamdulillah and i know now that All strength and might and power is with only almighty Allah ta ala, anything is from Allah ta ala and not to be attributed to mere mortals who can do nothing without the help of Allah ta ala.

I praise Almighty Allah i have no praise for men, who without Allah ta ala are nothing, know nothing, and have nothing. Anyone who told me that they are "the awliyah of Allah" or called themselves "shaikhul Islam" i would think there is something wrong with them. for who in their right mind would ever say such a thing about themselves when they know who is their Rabb and who is it that keeps them breathing and living and thinking and knowing Him ta ala. A scolar is simply the carrier of the knowledge of the Quran and sahih sunnah, and no scolar should be praised and almost worshipped in this way audu billah because of so called "miracles" which are from Allah ta ala and not himself.


its as imam as shafi said: spend 40 days with the sufis and you will come out as a madman.

Um Abdullah
09-08-07, 01:44 PM
actually the true awliya' of Allah don't boast (I think I mispelled that?) about themselves, nor do they call themselves shaikh al Islam or "awliya'", people are ones who call them that, people are ones who give them those labels.
the awliya' of Allah are humble.

as for karamat they are real, but their are limits to them, like one doesn't bring the dead back to life, or controls the universe or time travels ..etc.
these would be fakes and lies.

as for the stories medievalist mentioned, I don't believe that the person who was spoken about (shah waliullah) said those stories about himself, it was told by others who witnessed it.
and like I said, I do not know him, so I can't speak about a person I don't know.
so I keep silent about him.

Twinkle
09-08-07, 01:50 PM
^^^ exactly!

no wali or shaykh ul islam that i no of have ever called themselves a wali or shaykh ul islam. its usually their mureeds and students who call them that. so its hardly any fault of the teacher that they're given that title.

ImaanSeeker
09-08-07, 01:51 PM
:jkk: its alright ukhti im used to meds insults, bro med you usually personally insult people when they dont agree with you, and you should be careful about that because as you know in one narration it is a sign of hypocrisy to insult when you disagree.

I take my deen only from the daleel of the Quran and sahih sunnah, Islam freed me from the beleif in supersitions and fairy tales about flying people, people walking on water, and people with "mystical powers" such stories do not impress me at all. nor do they make me think highly of a person who claims this sort of thing, i am more likely to think he is a faker for why if he had some miracle from Allah ta ala is he/she telling everyone about it ? for fame ? for glory ? why ? there is no need to advertise themselves as "something special" this is the mistake of the people before us. who began to woship the righteous men who had died before them after shaitan wshipered to the,

They attribute to men what comes from Allah ta ala. They think these men are somehow special but any muslim knows that only Allah ta ala is the one who can help us, as the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said when Allah wishes to do good to a person he gives them knowledge and understanding of the religion. so this shaikh waliyahs mother claims his hands popped out of her stomach and started praying with her.. you know what i dont beleive her, because i spent years sitting with such people, who claim such stories, and i can see right through them Alhamdulillah and i know now that All strength and might and power is with only almighty Allah ta ala, anything is from Allah ta ala and not to be attributed to mere mortals who can do nothing without the help of Allah ta ala.

I praise Almighty Allah i have no praise for men, who without Allah ta ala are nothing, know nothing, and have nothing. Anyone who told me that they are "the awliyah of Allah" or called themselves "shaikhul Islam" i would think there is something wrong with them. for who in their right mind would ever say such a thing about themselves when they know who is their Rabb and who is it that keeps them breathing and living and thinking and knowing Him ta ala. A scolar is simply the carrier of the knowledge of the Quran and sahih sunnah, and no scolar should be praised and almost worshipped in this way audu billah because of so called "miracles" which are from Allah ta ala and not himself.


its as imam as shafi said: spend 40 days with the sufis and you will come out as a madman.

Asiyah:

The karamaat of the auliya is a fact. It is not something someone can choose not to believe. Go back a few pages on the thread and you will see what Imam Ibn Taymiyyah(ra) said about the auliya and sufism.

The miracles of the saints do not come from hinduism as you continually insinuated. I don't know where you get this from.

Also, the auliya don't 'advertise' their miracles. They don't do it for the adulation and fame from the people. They don't do anything for the sake of people. That's how they became auliya. Rather Allah(swt) bestows His miracles on those who are close to them.

If you go a couple pages back on this thread, you will see ample evidence of mircales from saints, from the likes of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah.

You will also, see that there are 2 kinds of sufism. One that is full of bidah.

And the second one that is endorsed by all classical scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jammah. Denying that tasawwuf/tazkiyah/etc exist, is denying a whole part of Islam. Go back a couple pages on this thread and read what the liek of Ibn Al-Jawzi(ra) and Imam Ibn Taymiyaah(ra) have to say on this form of sufism.

Also, I don't what insults you speak of. I haven't read anyone insulting another user on this thread.

ImaanSeeker
09-08-07, 01:56 PM
actually the true awliya' of Allah don't boast (I think I mispelled that?) about themselves, nor do they call themselves shaikh al Islam or "awliya'", people are ones who call them that, people are ones who give them those labels.
the awliya' of Allah are humble.

as for karamat they are real, but their are limits to them, like one doesn't bring the dead back to life, or controls the universe or time travels ..etc.
these would be fakes and lies.

as for the stories medievalist mentioned, I don't believe that the person who was spoken about (shah waliullah) said those stories about himself, it was told by others who witnessed it.
and like I said, I do not know him, so I can't speak about a person I don't know.
so I keep silent about him.

MashaAllah sis.

Too often these day, there are people who confidently tell others not to believe in this and that, but they themselves have no idea what they are condemning.

If one doesn't know something, or is not aware of something, they should be humble enough to admit it, or they should remain silent.

ADZ w3
09-08-07, 01:58 PM
i thought shah waliullah was very respected amongst the salafis, infact many salafis believe shah waliullah was a salafi :S

yeh ive heard of him...mashallah the guy to do the first translation of the quran in urdu no? im sure he's got sumfing to do with lal masjid ? well respected by the people of the masjid as well..correct me if im wrong..
as far as i know, was upon the quran and sunnah..BUT i might hve the wrong person ..but im sure my friend did say shah waliullah..???

*asiya*
09-08-07, 02:07 PM
actually the true awliya' of Allah don't boast (I think I mispelled that?) about themselves, nor do they call themselves shaikh al Islam or "awliya'", people are ones who call them that, people are ones who give them those labels.
the awliya' of Allah are humble.

as for karamat they are real, but their are limits to them, like one doesn't bring the dead back to life, or controls the universe or time travels ..etc.
these would be fakes and lies.

as for the stories medievalist mentioned, I don't believe that the person who was spoken about (shah waliullah) said those stories about himself, it was told by others who witnessed it.
and like I said, I do not know him, so I can't speak about a person I don't know.
so I keep silent about him.

exactly ukhti subhanAllah even the scolars i learnt from do not like to be called shaikh, and i have seen one of my shaikh fall silent in the middle of a sentance in a class and not continue teaching until he has the permission of the older shaikh who entered, he first asked the shaikh who entered to continue the class, because he feels he has more knowledge of the deen, the older shaikh said to the younger no please continue and these shaikh are our brothers, you can approach anyone of them and despite their immense knowledge of the deen they act like one of us, caring for their brothers and sisters with such sincerity masha Allah, and not acting as if they are on some "other higher plain" or "special" or something because they have knowledge of the deen.

subhanAllah this is the humility of the scolars of Islam who know that the knowledge that they carry from the Quran and sahih sunnah if from Allah ta ala alone and all praises and thanks is due to Him ta ala, and that it couldbe taken away from them at any time audu billah. what is the purpose in discussing so called miracles and writing books and books about them,and these men, when indeed the miracle for mankind is the noble Quran the words of Allah ta ala who teaches man what he knew not, the words of his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam in the sahih hadith are enough for us, i am not in need of stories of miracles i am not even remotely impressed because everything is from Allah ta ala.

when i first came to Islam seeking knowledge of the deen, i arrived here at ummah.com chat room looking for someone to help me learn about islam, someone who called themselves ali told me to close my eyes and say something like "hach bau sach bau " over and over, and that his shaikh would come to me in my dream and fly me to the kabba and teach me al Islam... :rolleyes: Alhamdulillah i had read the quran, and although i didnt know much and i knew 100% in my heart what he was saying was completely false and from shaitan Alhamdulillah.of course ali would say it was because i was not sincere in my chanting that i did not have this oportunity to meet with his shaikh :rolleyes: i see that as a blessing from Allah ta ala.

salahuldin786
09-08-07, 02:28 PM
:wswrwb: sah subhanAllah Alhamdulillah having come through christianity, buddisim, and hinduisim before i became muslim, and having been taught by shaikh who are teaching only by the Quran and sahih sunnah Alhamdulillah, it is very easy to see what are additions to the deen by men who think they have knowledge of the unseen audu billah, as we know the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said "every addition to the religion of Al Islam will lead to the hellfire."As Allah ta ala has said "The truth is clear from falsehood"

In much of these teachings that have come from asia, there is essences of hinduism clearly there. especially in reagards to the way they view their shaikh audu billah, its just as the hindus put their "spiritual masters" on a platform and practically worship them audu billah. When all praises is due to Allah ta ala alone, and no man on this earth can take an iota of credit for what Allah ta ala has taught him, for Allah ta ala alone taught men what they did not know. No one after the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam who did not speak from his own desires as Allah ta ala states in the Quran, no one else has "special knowledge" that others dont have, because the knowledge of al islam is there and open for all of mankind to learn and understand. This is the beauty of Al Islam, it is open for all. And all of us have aduty to seek out knowledge of our religion from the authentic sources.

This is why it is so important to know the Quran and hadith well insha Allah, because there is no an issue in life that is not covered in these two sources. And we are not in need of going to anyone else for new "inpirations" about how to be a muslim and how to worship Allah, Allah ta ala has already perfected our religion for us. As the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam said in his last sermon, i leave behind two things that if you stick fast to them you will never go astray the book of Allah, (Al Quran) and my sunnah.



didnt abdul qadir jilani have vision's

salahuldin786
09-08-07, 02:34 PM
so u are all saying that the Barelwi will go to hell and burn forever in the pits of hell and u will sit on thrones.

Abu Mus'ab
09-08-07, 02:49 PM
I'll provide the verse number of Surah Baqarah in the evening today inshaALLAH.

But you surprise me AbooSait - you seem to know so much about which hadeeth is fabricated and which weak and which whatever, you seem to have indepth knowledge about so much of Islam yet you are unaware of what Surah Baqarah has to say about Nabi :saw: ? ajeeb

Are you being sarcastic? :scratch: because aboo indian spammer has never made sense in his entire life, i'm yet to see one thing from him that can be called "knowledge" :rolleyes:

aboosait
10-08-07, 12:32 AM
Are you being sarcastic? :scratch: because aboo indian spammer has never made sense in his entire life, i'm yet to see one thing from him that can be called "knowledge" :rolleyes:

You have not answered to my post #134 which was adressed to you. The questions asked by me are in response to one of your previous posts which has been clearely referenced.

aboosait
10-08-07, 02:10 AM
The ayah bro Medievalist is speaking about is
129 in surat al Baqarah
2:129

:jkk:

I am herewith placing before you the three verses from the Qur'an where the phrase [وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ] appears. and the meaning and Tafsir from 'Ibne Katheer'

Al-Baqara (The Cow) 2:129


[رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولاً مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ آيَـتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ العَزِيزُ الحَكِيمُ ]


(129. "Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur'an), and purify them. Verily, You are the Mighty, the Wise.'')

Ibrahim's Supplication that Allah sends the Prophet:

Allah mentioned Ibrahim's supplication for the benefit of the people of the Sacred Area (to grant them security and provision), and it was perfected by invoking Allah to send a Messenger from his offspring. This accepted supplication, from Ibrahim, conformed with Allah's appointed destiny that Muhammad be sent as a Messenger among the Ummiyyin and to all non-Arabs, among the Jinns and mankind.
Hence, Ibrahim was the first person to mention the Prophet to the people. Ever since, Muhammad was known to the people, until the last Prophet was sent among the Children of Israel, Jesus the son of Mary, who mentioned Muhammad by name. Jesus addressed the Children of Israel saying,


[إِنِّى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ إِلَيْكُم مُّصَدِّقاً لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَىَّ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَمُبَشِّراً بِرَسُولٍ يَأْتِى مِن بَعْدِى اسْمُهُ أَحْمَدُ]


(I am the Messenger of Allah unto you, confirming what is before me in the Tawrah, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad) (61:6)

This is why the Prophet said ,


«دَعْوَةُ أَبِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَبُشْرَى عِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَم»


(The supplication of my father Ibrahim and the glad tidings brought forth by Jesus the son of Mary.)

The Prophet said,


«وَرَأَتْ أُمِّي أَنَّهُ خَرَجَ مِنْهَا نُورٌ أَضَاءَتْ لَهُ قُصُورُ الشَّام»


(My mother saw a light that went out of her and radiated the palaces of Ash-Sham.)

It was said that the Prophet's mother saw this vision when she was pregnant with, narrated this vision to her people, and the story became popular among them. The light mentioned in the Hadith appeared in Ash-Sham (Greater Syria), testifying to what will later occur when the Prophet's religion will be firmly established in Ash-Sham area. This is why by the end of time, Ash-Sham will be a refuge for Islam and its people. Also, Jesus the son of Mary will descend in Ash-Sham, next to the eastern white minaret in Damascus. The Two Sahihs stated,


«لَا تَزَالُ طَائِفَةٌ مِنْ أُمَّتِي ظَاهِرِينَ عَلَى الْحَقِّ لَا يَضُرُّهُمْ مَنْ خَذَلَهُمْ وَلَا مَنْ خَالَفَهُمْ حَتَّى يَأْتِيَ أَمْرُ اللهِ وَهُمْ كَذَلِك»
وفي صحيح البخاري
«وَهُمْ بالشَّام»



(There will always be a group of my Ummah who will be on the truth, undeterred by those who fail or oppose them, until the command of Allah comes while they are on this.)

Al-Bukhari added in his Sahih, (And they will reside in Ash-Sham.)

The Meaning of Al-Kitab wal-Hikmah

Allah said,


[وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ]


(and instruct them in the Book) meaning, Al-Qur'an,


[وَالْحِكْــمَةِ]


(and Al-Hikmah) meaning,

the Sunnah, as Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Muqatil bin Hayyan and Abu Malik asserted. It was also said that `Al-Hikmah', means `comprehension in the religion', and both meanings are correct.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah said, that Ibn `Abbas said that,



[وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ]


(and purify them) means, "With the obedience of Allah.''


Allah's favor is perfected when His Messenger to the people is from their own kind, so that they are able to talk to him and inquire about the meanings of Allah's Word. This is why Allah said,


[يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتِهِ]

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:164


لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللّهُ عَلَى الْمُؤمِنِينَ إِذْ بَعَثَ فِيهِمْ رَسُولاً مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِي ضَلالٍ مُّبِينٍ (3:164)


Allah the Most High said:



[لَقَدْ مَنَّ اللَّهُ عَلَى الْمُؤمِنِينَ إِذْ بَعَثَ فِيهِمْ رَسُولاً مِّنْ أَنفُسِهِمْ]


(Indeed Allah conferred a great favor on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves,)

Meaning, from their own kind, so that it is possible for them to speak with him, ask him questions, associate with him, and benefit from him. Just as Allah said:


[وَمِنْ ءايَـتِهِ أَنْ خَلَقَ لَكُم مِّنْ أَنفُسِكُمْ أَزْوَجاً لِّتَسْكُنُواْ إِلَيْهَا]


(And among His signs is that he created for them mates, that they may find rest in.)

Meaning; of their own kind. And Allah said;


[قُلْ إِنَّمَآ أَنَاْ بَشَرٌ مِّثْلُكُمْ يُوحَى إِلَىَّ أَنَّمَآ إِلَـهُكُمْ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ]


(Say: "I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is One God'') [18:110].


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ إِلاَّ إِنَّهُمْ لَيَأْكُلُونَ الطَّعَامَ وَيَمْشُونَ فِى الاٌّسْوَاقِ]


(And We never sent before you any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets) [25:20].


[وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ إِلاَّ رِجَالاً نُّوحِى إِلَيْهِمْ مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَى]


(And We sent not before you any but men unto whom We revealed, from among the people of townships) [12:109], and,

[يَـمَعْشَرَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنْسِ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنْكُمْ]


(O you assembly of Jinn and mankind! "Did not there come to you Messengers from among you...'') [6:130].

Allah's favor is perfected when His Messenger to the people is from their own kind, so that they are able to talk to him and inquire about the meanings of Allah's Word. This is why Allah said,


[يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتِهِ]

(reciting unto them His verses) [3:164], the Qur'an,


[وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ]


(and purifying them), commanding them to do righteous works and forbidding them from committing evil. This is how their hearts will be purified and cleansed of the sin and evil that used to fill them when they were disbelievers and ignorant.


[وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ]


(and instructing them (in) the Book and the Hikmah,) the Qur'an and the Sunnah,


[وَإِن كَانُواْ مِن قَبْلِ]


(while before that they had been), before sending this Prophet, Muhammad ,


[لَفِى ضَلَـلٍ مُّبِينٍ]


(in manifest error. ) indulging in plain and unequivocal error and ignorance that are clear to everyone.


Al-Jumu'ah (Friday) 62:2

Allah said,


[هُوَ الَّذِى بَعَثَ فِى الأُمِّيِّينَ رَسُولاً مِّنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتِهِ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَإِن كَانُواْ مِن قَبْلُ لَفِى ضَلَلٍ مُّبِينٍ ]



(He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His Ayat, purifying them, and teaching them the Book and the Hikmah. And verily, they had been before in manifest error.)

In ancient times, the Arabs used to adhere by the religion of Ibrahim, peace be upon him.

They later changed, corrupted and contradicted it, choosing polytheism instead of Tawhid and doubts instead of certainty.

They invented a religion that Allah did not legislate, just as the People of the Scriptures did when they changed and corrupted their Divine Books.

Allah sent Muhammad , with a great divine legislation, perfect religion that is suitable for all humans and Jinns.

In it, there is guidance and explanations of all that they need in this life and the Hereafter.

It draws them closer to Paradise and Allah's pleasure and takes them away from the Fire and earning Allah's anger.

In it, there is the final judgement for all types of doubts and suspicion for all major and minor matters of the religion.

In Muhammad , Allah gathered all the good qualities of the Prophets before him, and gave him what He has never given the earlier and later generations of mankind.

May Allah's peace and blessings be on Muhammad until the Day of Judgement.

aboosait
10-08-07, 02:27 AM
[QUOTE]they have an idea in their head and anything against it they flick away.

We do not have any pre-fabricated ideas in our head. We try to follow what is in the Qur'an and Sunnah. (as has been clear from the three verses in my previous post.)


3. and purify them.

.............the Purification - we can call it tazkiyyah or islaah or tasawwuf ................By us tasawwuf is to make muhaasabah of oneself, to make fikr e mawt, to learn about the lowly characters and strive to eliminate or subjugate them, to cultivate and nurture the noble characters.


Please see the word as explained by the Sahaba R.A in my previous post.



Bas - thats tasawwuf.

To be a true Sufi is an honour.

This self imposed 'title' is not found in history anywhere during the time of the Prophet or during the Sahaba. Allah has given us the title "MUSLIM" and we shall be glad and satisfied to be called "MUSLIM" and would consider it an insult to be called otherwise.

Medievalist
10-08-07, 02:06 PM
AbooSait - ayah number 129 towards end of 1st para. Rabbana wab'ath feehim Rasulam til the end.

That is sufficient I trust.

Sunni Student
10-08-07, 02:46 PM
its as imam as shafi said: spend 40 days with the sufis and you will come out as a madman.

As for the following misguided citations:

Imaam Ash-Shaa'fee on Sufism: "If a person exercised Sufism (Tasawafa) at the beginning of the day, he does not come to Dhuhur except an idiot." [Talbees Iblees].

Abu Nu`aym narrated with his chain in Hilyat al-Awliya' that al-Shafi`i said: "If a person did NOT exercise Sufism at the beginning of the day, he would not reach Zuhr except an idiot." And this is true, as shown by the detractors of Sufism till our time. Some are dangerous idiots, some are harmless idiots, but they are all, without exception, idiots as the Imam said.

"Nobody accompanied the Sufis forty days and had his brain return (ever)." [Talbees Iblees].

Except that the above statement is a forgery. In fact, Talbis Iblis is filled with forgeries but some people rely on it because they have no fear of Allah.

Concerning the famous Sufi leader, Al-Harith Al-Muhasbi, Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbaal (R) said:

"Warn (people) from Al-Harith (a Sufi leader) the strongest warning!... He is the shelter of the Ahl Kalaam (people of rhetoric)." [Talbees Iblis].

Al-Dhahabi narrated with a chain he declared sahih, that Imam Ahmad praised al-Harith al-Muhasibi with the strongest praise. Al-Dhahabi also said of Ibn al-Jawzi, the author of Talbis Iblis, that he does not consider him a Hafiz because he finds him sloppy.

aboosait
10-08-07, 03:31 PM
AbooSait - ayah number 129 towards end of 1st para. Rabbana wab'ath feehim Rasulam til the end.

That is sufficient I trust.

Perhaps Allah S.w.t did not know that it was sufficient (Naoodhu billah). He has said it in three Ayahs each in a different Sura.

What we know is that the meaning of the phrase [وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ] is found in the veses preceding or following the word. You will get the correct meaning only if you read all the verses refering to a particular topic.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah said, that Ibn `Abbas said that,


[وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ]

(and purify them) means, "With the obedience of Allah.''

Allah's favor is perfected when His Messenger to the people is from their own kind, so that they are able to talk to him and inquire about the meanings of Allah's Word. This is why Allah said,


[يَتْلُواْ عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتِهِ]

If you read my post carefully, you can see hoee the same phrase is explained in the Qur'an itself:


[وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ]

(and purifying them), commanding them to do righteous works and forbidding them from committing evil. This is how their hearts will be purified and cleansed of the sin and evil that used to fill them when they were disbelievers and ignorant.


[وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَـبَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ]

(and instructing them (in) the Book and the Hikmah,) the Qur'an and the Sunnah,

Again in the third Ayat ( from Surah Al-Jumu'ah (Friday) 62:2) the same phrase is explained in a different way. I have quoted from Tafseer Ibn-e-Katheer.

Please try to learn the meanings from the Qur'an and Sunnah and do not blindly follow what your misguided Sufis say. At least now please compare the meaning you have stated of this phrase with the meaning derived from the Verses of the Qur'an.

Sunni Student
17-08-07, 04:07 PM
subhanAllah do you have any proof that the saudi scholars gave talks etc. at brelavi/deobandi masjids in the Uk. This is the first I have heard of this?

Read again i said


The Scholars of the arab world have praised both Deobandi and Brailwi scholars and regard them both as Ahl-us-Sunnah.

Is Saudi is not the only Arab country? :rolleyes:

Arab Scholars of Yemen such as Shaikh Habib Umar, Shaikh Habib Ali Jifri, Scholars from Syria such as Shikah Muhammad Yaqoubi, Shikah Gibreil Haddad [who resides in Syria]...

Oh and if you want proof then you should have attended the annual sunni confence just a few weeks ago at Jamia Ghamgol Sharif Birmingham where Shaikh Yoqoubi was, or you should have attended the Shamail of Imam Tirmidhi at the same Masjid a few months ago!

And also if Shaikh Maliki Al Makki the grand Mufti of Mecca who had Hadith Ijazas from Both Deobandi and Brailwi Scholars.

aboosait
18-08-07, 02:23 AM
[QUOTE]Is Saudi is not the only Arab country?..................Arab Scholars of Yemen........................................... And also if ........................

Most of the writings of the scholars of these two groups are in Urdu.

aboosait
20-08-07, 06:47 AM
[QUOTE]Arab Scholars of Yemen such as .....................

What is so surprising if a scholar delivered an Islamic lecture in your country on being invited by you? Dont they consider it their duty to spread the essentials of deen?

Their being unaware of your manhaj or aqidah (because your writings are in a language they are not familiar with) is a different matter.

Sunni Student
22-08-07, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=Sunni Student;2076933]



What is so surprising if a scholar delivered an Islamic lecture in your country on being invited by you? Dont they consider it their duty to spread the essentials of deen?

Their being unaware of your manhaj or aqidah (because your writings are in a language they are not familiar with) is a different matter.

To such an extent that they take Ijazas from our scholars? :rolleyes:

and narrate stories of how there there father was a close friend of some of the deobandi Aulama? [In reference to Shaikh Habib Umar]

And also most of them have read the work of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan as he has written many books in Arabic, and many of them acknowledge the great amount of work the Scholars of the Indian Sub Continent have done in the field of Hadith especially in reference to the Deobandi Scholars.

These scholars i have mentioned have students of such backgrounds!

aboosait
22-08-07, 07:04 AM
[QUOTE]And also most of them have read the work of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan as he has written many books in Arabic,

Great. How do you know?

Sunni Student
22-08-07, 01:23 PM
Great. How do you know?

He has a book titled al-Dawla al-Makkiyya written in Arabic and it was endorsed by many Aulama from the Arab world at the time

Also it is well known that the late grand Muhaddith of Makka Muhammad bin `Alawi Maliki had Ijazas through Imam Ahmad Rida Khan among other scholars of the Indian Sub Continent, read his Bio:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13858

aboosait
22-08-07, 02:17 PM
He has a book titled al-Dawla al-Makkiyya written in Arabic and it was endorsed by many Aulama from the Arab world at the time

Also it is well known that the late grand Muhaddith of Makka Muhammad bin `Alawi Maliki had Ijazas through Imam Ahmad Rida Khan among other scholars of the Indian Sub Continent, read his Bio:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13858

This is not the answer to my question I repeat:



And also most of them have read the work of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan..............How do you know?

HelpingHand
22-08-07, 04:11 PM
i thought shah waliullah was very respected amongst the salafis, infact many salafis believe shah waliullah was a salafi :S

Asslamo Allaikum,

Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips lists Shah Waliullah (RA) as one of the greatest Ulama of the Ummah in “Clash of Civilisation (page 53 I think).

Shah Waliullah (RA) is undisputedly one of the greatest Ulama of Islam & a Mujaddid.

Darul-uloom (Madrasa) Deoband was established by his great-grand-children.

Almost all Asian scholars (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Russian states) of any school of thought (Deobandi, Barelwee, Salafee, Ahlul-Hadeeth) have their chain of transmission of Hadeeth going through Mujaddid Alf Thani (Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi) & Shah Waliullah (RA).

The teacher of famous Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab An-Najdi (RA) was also a Hanafi Scholar from Sindh (current Pakistan) [name escapes me at the moment something Sindhi???]

The current scholar Mufti Taqi Usmani (Grand Mufti of Pakistan) has the shortage Chain of transmission of Tirmidhi of any other scholar in the world going through Shah Waliullah (RA).

aboosait
23-08-07, 12:39 AM
:wswrwb:


[QUOTE]Asslamo Allaikum,

:wswrwb:


Almost all Asian scholars (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, Russian states) of any school of thought (Deobandi, Barelwee, Salafee, Ahlul-Hadeeth) have their chain of transmission of Hadeeth going through Mujaddid Alf Thani (Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi) & Shah Waliullah (RA).

Chain of transmission of Hadeeth was required when there were limited copies of written manuscripts and the printing press was not available.

The two scholars you speak of namely Mujaddid Alf Thani (Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi) & Shah Waliullah (RA) were of the recent past when paper and printing press had been common. So what was the necessity to route the chain through them? Couldnt they get copies directly from the shaikhs/libraries which had them?

Hope you will not hesitate to lend a helping hand in finding an answer to this question.

HelpingHand
23-08-07, 11:31 AM
:wswrwb:[QUOTE=HelpingHand;2089225]



:wswrwb:



Chain of transmission of Hadeeth was required when there were limited copies of written manuscripts and the printing press was not available.

The two scholars you speak of namely Mujaddid Alf Thani (Shaykh Ahmed Sirhindi) & Shah Waliullah (RA) were of the recent past when paper and printing press had been common. So what was the necessity to route the chain through them? Couldnt they get copies directly from the shaikhs/libraries which had them?

Hope you will not hesitate to lend a helping hand in finding an answer to this question.

Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Brother in Islam,

Ijaza is an integral part of learning the science of Hadeeth & with the greatest respect if you had spent a day learning the science of Hadeeth, then you wouldn’t have asked such a daft question.

Every SINGLE Scholar lists his teachers & his students and that has been the way of Islam for over 1400 years.

I have the printed books of Ahadeeth which I bought from the place where I studied in Saudia & on the FIRST page it says,

Muwatta according to the Narration of "Such & Such"...

And the explaination tells you the differences between DIFFERENT chains of narrations & editions.

For everyone else the name of the scholar who forgot yesterday is:

Shaikh Muhammad Hayaat bin Ibraaheem As-Sindee (RA)

http://al-ibaanah.com/bios.php?BioID=29

aboosait
07-09-07, 05:16 PM
Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Brother in Islam,

:wswrwb:

[QUOTE]............Shaikh Muhammad Hayaat bin Ibraaheem As-Sindee (RA)

http://al-ibaanah.com/bios.php?BioID=29...............

:jkk:

I would like to quote the following excerpts from that web page.

Muhammad Hayaat As-Sindee said:


‘The requirement upon every Muslim is that he strive hard to understand the meanings of the Qur’aan and to seek after the Ahaadeeth, understanding their meanings and extracting rulings from them.

If he is not able to do this, then it is upon him to blind-follow the scholars without restricting himself to one particular madh-hab because this may resemble taking him (i.e. the Imaam of the madh-hab) as a prophet.

He is also required to take the most cautious and safest view from each madh-hab (school of thought).

And he is permitted to abide by the allowances (rukhas) in cases of emergency. But as for times in which there is no emergency, then it is better to leave it off.

As for what the people of our time have introduced from making it required to stick to one particular madh-hab, and that it is not permissible to change from one madh-hab to another madh-hab, this is ignorance, innovation and deviation.

And we have indeed seen them abandoning authentic ahaadeeth – that are not even abrogated – and instead clinging on to their madh-habs without any support. Verily, to Allaah we belong and to Him we will return.”

aboosait
18-03-11, 04:46 AM
...... who is the scholar Tantawe?........

Which Tantawe are you interested in? I dont know who among the following is a scholar of your taste.

http://www.facebook.com/people/Yasser-Tantawe/825825409

http://www.facebook.com/people/Samer-Mohanad-Al-Tantawe/799828325

http://www.facebook.com/people/Moamen-Tantawe/1807428510

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/marwa-tantawe/11/912/599

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/ahmed-tantawe/18/aa0/7b1

Perhaps you might be interested in Muhammad Sayyid Tantawy (also referred to as Tantawi):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Sayyid_Tantawy

IbnulQayyim
18-03-11, 05:03 AM
3 yr old thread lolz

aboosait
18-03-11, 05:17 AM
3 yr old thread lolz

And Tantawi was alive when the thread was started!

Uthman Ibn Afan
18-03-11, 10:41 AM
wow i just read some of that site page.. :S

Moreover, in this mean world anti-God and anti-prophet societies were also to be founded merely for the reason that God is invisible to them through bare eyes. God forfends! In sum, in place of the rational gallop, o perceptual race was starting and in place of the faculties of the heart and the mind the sovereignty of the eye of the forehead was to be installed. In other words, that old Judaism, which had divested the Jews of their faith, was to revive again to come before the world and it was this only that they, striking the adz at the very basis of their faith, had fixed the eye to be their deity; and they had said:

"0 Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly"(11:55). 'And we will not acknowledge the divine speech to be divine till we hear Allah's voice with our own ears'.

As though this abnegation had taken the form of a principle that a thing not seen by the eye does not exist; naturally the sequel was that sense had taken the place of intellect and perceptible things the place of rationalism. Hence, they were desirous of seeing with eyes even those spiritualities, which are things to be seen with the heart and are free from and above perceptible form and shape. Hence, it had become insufficient to explain to them a subtle and spiritual reality like religion by bringing it before them merely in a rational shirt, as long as it was not brought forth covered with the mantle of perceptible abject. Thus, even as at the beginning of this age of rationalism the respectable Imam Shah Waliyullah, through divine inspiration, carved the way of rational argument and proof for the stating of religion, at the start of this period of perceptivity."

************************************************** **********************

la howla wala qawalta illah billah

And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration,whereas he is not inspired in anything" 6:91


wait a minute i have just read their belief on that site given, the guy claims he had divine inspiration, which is clearly false As Allah ta ala says who is more evil than the one who claims he has received divine inspritation when he has recieved none" and we know from the sahih ahadith that the divine inspiration stopped with the death of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, as u may recall one woman wept, not only for his death, but more so for the fact there would be no more revelation from ALlah ta ala. Also Allah ta ala says that he perfected his religion ( al Islam) and so Allah is not in need of these men who make false claims against what Allah ta ala and his messenger have said.

Is this deobandi belief the same one u told me about before where they call the shaikhs "Allah walliyah" and they beleive that one dude had a "mystical cloak" that when his "disciple" put them on they get the knowledge of their shaikhs and see and know things no one else can ? ...or is that the brelwis who beleive this, both groups essentially seem to have essence of sufisim in them, or should i say essence of hinduisim because they too beleive stuff like this about their "spiritual masters" in fact i have seen that the deobandis use this same term as the hindus for this.

The Shaykhs name was Shah Waliullah. His titles were muhadith, mujadid... He was not a "Deobandi" as Madrassah Deoband didnt even exist in his time. Rather he set in motion the Islamic Revival in his time that led to his grand-childrens generation declaring jihad, and his great-grand childrens generation establishing of Deoband. The Shaykh was not even a strict madhabi (like todays Deobandi-Hanafis) as such he is highly regarded by all Sunnis whether they are madhabi or la-madhabi. Read Shah Waliullahs biography, he was truly an amazing personality and very balanced in his approach to Islam.


i know what these terms mean and they have no basis in the Quran and sahih sunnah, this kashf means they beleive that their shaikhs ( or saintly people as they call them) recieve/d divine guidance or messages inpired into their hearts. they claim these are from Allah audu billah.

Ilhaam is similar but to a lesser degree, neither of these has any basis in Islam, this is purely from mushrik traditions, and as i said very easy for me to see having come through those schools of teachings , there is much wisdom to be had in the hadith of the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam who said That "he washed his hands of any muslim who lived within the firelight of the mushriks" for we see how some of the muslims have taken their beliefs, and tried to apply them in al Islam, audu billah.



The concept of ilhaam is accepted by all, even by Salafi scholars. An example of ilhaam from the Quran is where the mother of Musa (alayhi salaam) was inspired (given ilhaam) to place Musa into the river when he was a baby. Musas mother was not a Prophet. A more recent example is where Shaykh al-Albani said Syed Qutb was given ilhaam to do what he did. Are people now going to accuse al-Albani of the same things Shah Waliullah is being accused of?

Uthman Ibn Afan
18-03-11, 10:53 AM
‘I say that there is a chapter in this book (Milestones) which is of great benefit, called ‘La ilaha illallah minhaj hayah’……he (Sayyid Qutb) has written some words which I believe are like light from light ilham (inspiration)’
Shaykh Nasiruddeen al-Albani, ‘al-I’tidal fee Sayyid Qutb’

Uthman Ibn Afan
18-03-11, 10:57 AM
3 yr old thread lolz
:smack:

ahmed_abdullah
18-03-11, 11:42 AM
I am sure by the time this thread was opened and commented.Many had different views than they have today. :)

Alhumdulilah.

aboosait
18-03-11, 12:32 PM
.........he (Sayyid Qutb) has written some words which I believe are like light from light ilham

Yes thats what Shaikh Al Albani said about some words in a book.

He never said that the author of the book had Ilham.

If I say that your words are like pearls, would u order a necklace to be made out of them?

aboosait
18-03-11, 12:41 PM
I am sure by the time this thread was opened and commented.Many had different views than they have today. :)

And all of us have moved three years nearer to death..

aboosait
18-03-11, 12:43 PM
3 yr old thread lolz:smack:

But why did it stop abruptly? What was so scary about the last post at that time?

ahmed_abdullah
18-03-11, 02:42 PM
And all of us have moved three years nearer to death..

But most of us don't learn.:)

aboosait
19-03-11, 02:06 AM
But most of us don't learn.:)

Learn what? Iblees too know his fate. Does he need further learning?

ahmed_abdullah
19-03-11, 05:22 AM
Learn what? Iblees too know his fate. Does he need further learning?

Yes he did.He thought he knew everything, but alas he didn't knew many things.

Do you know how many crimes iblees did before he was sent down to Earth?

aboosait
19-03-11, 08:35 AM
Yes he did.He thought he knew everything, but alas he didn't knew many things.

Do you know how many crimes iblees did before he was sent down to Earth?

Why should I? Let us worry about our akhirah.

ahmed_abdullah
19-03-11, 09:23 AM
Why should I? Let us worry about our akhirah.

One should learn from his mistakes.Like said previously, "But most of us don't learn".

Just worrying is not enough, you should make steps through and learn from the mistakes of others.

aboosait
19-03-11, 10:15 AM
.......... learn from the mistakes of others.


And by others you mean Shaitan. Right?

Any Verse of Hadith which says that we should learn from the shaitan?

ahmed_abdullah
19-03-11, 12:14 PM
...........we should learn from the shaitan?...........

We should not learn from the shaitan, but we should learn from what Allah has revealed us.That includes everything that has been revealed from about the matters of shaitan to bani israel.

aboosait
20-03-11, 03:32 AM
We should not learn from the shaitan, but we should learn from what Allah has revealed us.That includes everything that has been revealed from about the matters of shaitan to bani israel.
:insha: