Shia Grand and Amman Message

[khanbaba]

This is a reponse from one of the Shia Grand Fazel Lankarani who is the signatory of the Amman Message. He clearly says that Shia belief of Imamat is higher than Prophet-hood and also that Rajah is one of the fundamental belief of Shias. This also shows how reliable Amman Message is, and their view of Shias is not acceptable.


http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/2-9.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/3-9.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/1-7.jpg

[dawa-i-dil]

jazakallahh....

its show..that imams are greater than all prophets....

but on prophet (pbuh)..they are silent or say that...ali(ra) is less than him(pbuh)...
or say that..two noor...is divided between ali..and prophet(pbuh).....

Khanbaba..not seen this ..thread on paklinks...why ...??

i think..its allowed there also..want to see that also there....

wasalam....

[chitownmuslim]

these Rafidi's got some pretty extreme and deviant beliefs.. like their claims of having another "hidden Quran" with their Mahdi... :torture:

[MG]

This is a reponse from one of the Shia Grand Fazel Lankarani who is the signatory of the Amman Message. He clearly says that Shia belief of Imamat is higher than Prophet-hood and also that Rajah is one of the fundamental belief of Shias. This also shows how reliable Amman Message is, and their view of Shias is not acceptable.





what is "rajah"?

[AbuMusaab]

Deviant barely covers it.

[khanbaba]

what is "rajah"?

PLease refer to the last email that I have posted.Its their belief that when Imam Mahdi comes, also 11 of their other Imams will come back to life and take revenge on their enemies.

[khanbaba]

jazakallahh....

its show..that imams are greater than all prophets....

but on prophet (pbuh)..they are silent or say that...ali(ra) is less than him(pbuh)...
or say that..two noor...is divided between ali..and prophet(pbuh).....

Khanbaba..not seen this ..thread on paklinks...why ...??

i think..its allowed there also..want to see that also there....

wasalam....

Salam
I was banned from there. That forum is filled with zindeeqs, Qadyanis, secularist and anti-Hadees people.

[al-ghazalli]

what is "rajah"?

not even many Shia layman are aware of the concept of Rajah in Shia books (mainly Bihar al-Anwar) but basically they believe the 12 Imams will come back to life and take revenge upon the Sahaba who "disobeyed the Prophet".

There are several hadiths within Bihar al-Anwar which state that Syedina Abu Bakr, Syedina Umar and Syedina Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with all of Them) will be punished by the Imams, whipped and killed for their transgression (noadbillah).

Allamah Baqir Majlisi writes: 'When Imam Mahdi arrives, Aa'ishah will be resurrected so that she may be given a prescribed punishment and that Fatimah be vindicated.' (Haqqul Yaqeen: 347)


Just shows you the sick minds of the rafidah.

[khanbaba]

not even many Shia layman are aware of the concept of Rajah in Shia books (mainly Bihar al-Anwar)

Salam O Alaikum,
If you go on Shia chat-rooms and search rajah, you will find many threads on this topic. Chat-rooms are run by laymen and not scholars.

Also Shais follow their marjees, so their beliefs are same as their scholars.

[al-ghazalli]

Walakum As Salam Wa Rahmtullah

If you go on Shia chat-rooms and search rajah, you will find many threads on this topic. Chat-rooms are run by laymen and not scholars.

Sidi I would say that Shia chat is the exception and May Allah Guide them or Ruin them, since their hatred for Sahaba is clear.

Also Shais follow their marjees, so their beliefs are same as their scholars.

Well some marja's doesn't talk about it as much for example Sidi Hussain20 was Shia yet his marja (Sistani) never discussed it with the layman.

And other Marja's are open about it.

Allahu Alam.

Sidi have you heard of the Dua of the Ziyarat of Ashura?

[khanbaba]

Well some marja's doesn't talk about it as much for example Sidi Hussain20 was Shia yet his marja (Sistani) never discussed it with the layman.

Salam,
Most of the Shia beliefs can be easily learned from their chat-rooms, since their marjees dont reply to your emails (few marjees are exception). They dont reply your emails about Imamat, Sahabas, Rajat etc, like they are hiding.


Shias of Lebanon on Rajah.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041031103616/www.shiitecouncil.gov.lb/aqaedia/raj3a.htm

Also here is a talk by low-level Shia scholar from New York to his followers about Rajah. Fast forward to 20 mins.
http://www.cyconline.co.uk/muharam/1428/sayed_ammar.html

I believe most Shias do know about this but they dont talk about it in public, and only restrict it to their private meetings.





Sidi have you heard of the Dua of the Ziyarat of Ashura
No, I have never heard of it. What is it?

[Cashew]

There are several hadiths within Bihar al-Anwar which state that Syedina Abu Bakr, Syedina Umar and Syedina Aisha (May Allah be Pleased with all of Them) will be punished by the Imams, whipped and killed for their transgression (noadbillah).

Allamah Baqir Majlisi writes: 'When Imam Mahdi arrives, Aa'ishah will be resurrected so that she may be given a prescribed punishment and that Fatimah be vindicated.' (Haqqul Yaqeen: 347)



I really don't understand why so many Muslims persist in regarding Shiism as Islam.

I'm not Muslim, but I don't see what any of this stuff has even vaguely to do with normative Islam.

And the more I learn, the stranger and stranger it gets...the "hidden Qu'ran," for example. What's THAT all about?

[khanbaba]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/lankarani-rajah.jpg

[al-ghazalli]

No, I have never heard of it. What is it?

Sidi Khanbaba it is a du`a which Hussain20 told me about which is wajib to recite.

Here is the opinion of Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Shahroudi who is a Marja (source of emulation) for the Shia and one of the top clerics in Qom, Iran.

سؤال 51 : أحببت السؤال عن مقطع اللعن الوارد في زيارة عاشوراء وأخص بالذكر هنا لعن الأوّل (أبي بكر ) والثاني ( عمر ) والثالث ( عثمان ) هل هو جزء من الزيارة وقد ورد عن المعصوم(عليه السلام) ؟ أم أنه خارج عنها ولم يرد على لسانه (عليه السلام) ؟ وهل كان الأئمة من آل البيت(عليهم السلام)يجيزون اللعن الثلاثة ويعتبرونه أمراً يثاب المرء عليه ؟

Question 51: My Habibi, my question is regarding the cursing that is found in the Dua’s of the Ziyarat of Ashura, and I talk in particular about the cursing of: the First (Abu Bakr), the Second (Umar), the Third (Uthman). Is it part of the Ziyarat and has it been reported by the Infallible (a.s)? Or has it been rejected? And did the Imams from Ahl al-Bayt allow the cursing of these three and did they say the person who does it is rewarded?

الجواب : نعم اللعن جزء من زيارة عاشوراء ويكرر مئة مرّة وقد صدر اللعن من الأئمة (عليهم السلام) وليس لعن الظالمين مختصاً بزيارة عاشوراء ، بل الروايات في ذلك متواترة . نعم لابدّ أن يكون اللعن غير مناف للتقية.


Answer: Yes, cursing is permissible in the Ziyarat of Ashura. Repeat it hundreds of times. It has been reported that the Imams cursed and this was not just the cursing of the oppressors of Ashura, but repeatedly (others as well). And this is found in a lot of similar Hadiths. And yes, the cursing must not be done in a matter to reveal the Taqiyyah.
source: http://www.shahroudi.net/aghayeda/aghayedj1.htm#التبري%20من%20أعداء%20الله

[Cashew]

Is this all true?

Seriously.

I mean, it just sounds so insane.

[khanbaba]

Sidi Khanbaba it is a du`a which Hussain20 told me about which is wajib to recite.
]

Nauthbillah!

Similar things can be found on the website of Shia Grand Shirazi:http://www.shirazi.org.uk/

Sir,
Why do the Shi’a condemn Abu Bakr and Omar?
Best regards
Bismillah al-Rahmaan al-Raheem

One reason for this being that only one day after the death of the Prophet (S) Omar, along with other some others, on the orders of Abu Bakr, invaded the house of Lady Fatima (AS), the only and most beloved daughter of the prophet (S), seeking to force Imam Ali (AS) to make Bay’ah with Abu Bakr. In the process Omar ordered to set fire to the house, because Lady Fatima (AS) refused to open the door to let them in. While Lady Fatima al-Zahra (AS) was inside the house behind the door speaking to the mob, Omar broke into the house, crushing Lady Fatima al-Zahra (AS) between the door and the wall. Once inside the house, Omar and others slapped Lady Fatima on the face, punched and kicked her, throwing her to the ground. They even hit her by the side of their swords! As a result, her unborn baby, who was due, and was named by the prophet (S) as Muhsin was killed immediately, and Lady Fatima died later because of the severe injuries she had sustained.

So Omar and Abu Bakr are cursed because they killed Fatima al-Zahra (AS), the most beloved daughter of the prophet as well as his grandson Muhsin.

Was-Salaam Alaycom wa Rahmatollah wa Barakaatoh



Imam Ali (AS) did not accept the caliphate of Abu Bakr to begin with, and when he did he was forced to do so. The door of Imam Ali's house was set on fire, his house was broken into, his wife Fatimah al-Zahra (AS) was crushed between the door of the house and wall, causing her sever to sustain injuries; her ribs were broken, her lung was pierced with a long spike, the baby she was carrying in her womb, Muhsen, was also murdered in the process of her being crushed. As if all these abhorrent crimes were not enough, she was then slapped on her face so hard that she was thrown to the ground and they hit her by the side of the sword on her arm. Having done all this, they then dragged Imam Ali (AS) out of the house, putting a noose around his neck, dragging him through the streets of Madinah to force him to make Bay'ah to Abu Bakr!!! When they reached Abu Bakr, they grabbed hold of the hand of Imam Ali (AS) and forcefully touched it to the hand of Abu Bakr, and then shouted that Imam Ali (AS) has made Bay'ah with Abu Bakr!!! People like Salman al-Farsi and Abu Dharr al-Ghefari shouted by Allah Imam Ali did NOT make Bay'ah willingly. Imam Ali (AS) told everyone that the Caliphate is his right only, as Rasulollah (S) had appointed Imam Ali (AS) as his successor on specific instructions from Allah Almighty. He repeated this throughout the rule of the three rulers Abu Bakr, Omar, and Othman, and the Muslims freely, and for the first time, made Bay'ah with Imam Ali (AS) as the Caliph of Rasulollah (S), even then he stated that it was his right to be the caliph of Rasulollah, and it was every Muslim's duty the make Bay'ah with him, Imam Ali as Amir-ul-Mu'minin, if they believed in Allah and His Messenger.

After the martyrdom of Rasulollah, the Muslims did not honour the Bay'ah they had given Imam Ali (AS) on the day of Ghadeer Khum on the orders of Rasulollah (S).

Doesnt this apply that all the Sahabas became fasiq for doing against a clear cut order of Prophet s.a.w?

[dawa-i-dil]

Is this all true?

Seriously.

I mean, it just sounds so insane.

Yes..unfortunatley this is....

and more problem is that..they consider Taqiyya..the greatest virtue of islam ..and taqiyya means to hide your real beliefs...
so if a shia say to you ..or me ..or anyone...ythat quran is not changed and same as all muslims have..we havee no way to check wheteher he is saying right ..or just using the formula of taqiyya :D

[Cashew]

Yes..unfortunatley this is....

and more problem is that..they consider Taqiyya..the greatest virtue of islam ..and taqiyya means to hide your real beliefs...
so if a shia say to you ..or me ..or anyone...ythat quran is not changed and same as all muslims have..we havee no way to check wheteher he is saying right ..or just using the formula of taqiyya :D

I'm not saying that Muslims lie about the differences between Shiism and Sunni Islam, but in the "big world" you generally get the overall impression that the differences aren't significant.

But the truth is that we're basically talking about two very different religions.

A Hidden Qu'ran???

So the first one was only a trial-run? There's another Qu'ran out there, somewhere, that says God-only-knows what?

[dawa-i-dil]

no all not say that.....many shias belive that that quran is final one...

i think..zaidi shias ..are quite moderate....

[al-ghazalli]

But the truth is that we're basically talking about two very different religions.

Cashew you are correct, Shiaism started off as a political movement and slowly evolved into a religious establishment, the religion itself has gone through several evolutions, for example the theory of making taqleed to a marja (following a Grand Ayatollah ((source of emulation)) is something new to the Shia's within the last several hundred years.

Before Shia's use to be Akabir now most Imamia Shia are Usooli.

Some Shia Scholars did not even believe in the divinity of the the twelve Imams, they just thought of them as Ulama Abrar Atqiya.

But these scholars voices were drowned out by the ghulat masses.