View Full Version : question for muslims about history
when i post this question, i mean no disrespect. as a matter of fact, there is much in the history of the islamic world to respect.
For close to 1000 years after Mohammed, the highest culture in the world, the one with the most advanced technology, the bulk of the scholarly writings was in the Islamic world. Very few will dispute that, Muslim or non Muslim. While the west was mired in superstition and Scientific advances were painfully slow, Muslim learning seemed to reach new hieghts- and then all of a sudden, the tables were turned. The West went through the renaissance had Scientific Breakthrough after breakthrough and eventuallywe are where we are today-every invention, innovation, discovery comes from the west. Meanwhile, it seems the Islamic world hasn't grown in 500 years, except using technology from the west. Opinions ?
pooya
Islamic - western relation not only military, there were a lot of areas, which both cultures worked together: Spain, south Italy and Near East (during crusader wars)
Islamic civilisation collapse for several reasons, i can mention what my personal opinion:
1) There were 200 years of crusaders wars, 1095-1289which destroyed the economic and security in Middle East, which was the centre of Islamic civilisation.
2) Mongolian attacks in 1261, they destroyed Baghdad, the capital of Islamic civilisation, completely and killed most of its people: 700000 victims. All the scientific heritage and documents were thrown in Digress river (the water of this river converted to dark blue, colour of ink at that time).
3) Spain the second Islamic centre was lost in 1494, all Muslims and Jews who were living golden age in Spain faced religious cleaning wars from the Catholic church.
4) Since 15th century, Muslims were following the classical Islamic laws and what the ancient scholars developed. They never tried to develop the Islamic laws and to give chance for new scholars.
5) Middle East lost the importance of its geographical site after discovering the Cape town (South Africa ) for trading between Asia instead to use the trading through middle east. This destroyed the economic of Middle East.
6) Ottoman Empire ruled the Islamic world in the end of 15th century. This state focused on military field and conquering more lands in South Europe instead to focus on science and education as the former Islamic states did. The intensive wars of Ottoman in Balkan and Russia made disasters in Islamic world. Ignorance , corruption and starvation’s spread.
khilafah
18-04-02, 02:39 AM
Nice post Brother Bilal, you touched on many of the areas which obviously play some part in our decline.
I'd suggest the simple way to look at it is this.
Around the time of the European Renaissance, the Muslims began falling away from their religion. This led to their downfall, as it was the thing which made them powerful to begin with (no great Arab civilisation existed until Islam raised them to this height), aronud the same time the Christians began falling away from their religion, which had actually been what was holding them back.
The more complicated answer is of course to look at things like "Closing the doors of Ijtihad" which Bilal kinda touched on, but didn't quite crystallise I don't think. Islam has a process for dealing with new situations, called Ijtihad. It's not about re-interpreting laws though as Bilal seemed to suggest, it's about dealing with new situations, and deriving news laws from the texts of Islam. We ceased performing Ijtihad, and after this time, our civilisation slowly began to crumble. Yes the Crusades and the Mongol invasions played a part too, but I suggest these things wouldn't have happened if we remained aware of our religion. Either way we recovered from them, but we didn't fully revive ourselves.
Once the Islamic Khilafah (caliphate) was dismantled completely in 1924, then the final nail in the coffin of the Islamic belief system was hammered into place. This ensured our progress was completely halted, and since we've completely relied upon the West in all matters.
The way to revive the situation of the Muslims and to restore Islamic Civilisation (Hadharah) is to restore the Islamic Khilafah System.
Hierophant
18-04-02, 02:55 PM
Bilal's points are quite accurate in my opinion. And interesting to note, points 1-4 are external influences, while points 5 and 6 are internal. Point 5 can be debated as being internal or external, but i see it as mainly internal, in that there was a percieved need to find alternate routes. The reason for this percieved need was based on the interactions of the islamic world and the west and east. Point 6 is also a crucial factor which also affected point 5, in both a causal and affect manner. I think all these points are going to be crucial to examine if there is going to be any hope of a modern caliphate.
Khihlafa's assertion that at the end of the european renaissance, muslims began falling away from their religion, is pure escapism. It doesnt address any of what was going on in the world at the time, and is just a convenient excuse.
the solution? hehe what kinda non muslim would i be if i gave you the answer? I will provide a hint tho. well i'm not the provider of this hint really. God provides the solutions to all of these problems and puts it in front of us all. no its not in a book. it's outside in your back yard, your forests, your rivers. nature follows God's law, and succeeds beautifully. The only difference is the lack of free will. ...
Good points khilafa and Hierophant,
samadams
10-05-02, 02:50 PM
I can't say I know the answer to why Arabs have fallen so low but I do point out that not all MUSLIMS have fallen like the Arabs and that US Muslims and US Arabs do quite well.
Additional clues may rest in some isolated facts.
Middle Eastern doctors complain that they can't use dissection in their medical studies.
Few Middle East students in West schools study humanities.
Sharia, where it is applied, eliminates input from half the population. US Muslims are torn between the US Constitution and the possibility that Shariah might be imposed in the future.
Patents and Copyrights are valued everywhere but the Middle East.
No decent Middle East University.
Sam
Our Universities are from the best in the world. 60% of students are applying in scientific fields.
The first universities were established during the Islamic civiliastion in Qurdoba (spain), Zaytona (Tunisia) and Azhar (Egypt.
Originally posted by samadams
I can't say I know the answer to why Arabs have fallen so low but I do point out that not all MUSLIMS have fallen like the Arabs and that US Muslims and US Arabs do quite well.
Additional clues may rest in some isolated facts.
Middle Eastern doctors complain that they can't use dissection in their medical studies.
Few Middle East students in West schools study humanities.
Sharia, where it is applied, eliminates input from half the population. US Muslims are torn between the US Constitution and the possibility that Shariah might be imposed in the future.
Patents and Copyrights are valued everywhere but the Middle East.
No decent Middle East University.
Sam
Machiavelli
27-05-02, 09:13 PM
i have no comment on how islam 'fell away' as someone here put it. But i can explain why Islam had its glory to begin with! when the dark ages started to set in, what happened to all of the intellects? if they werent killed for blasphemy, they fled. where did they flee to? many went to baghdad. there they shared the books they brought with them, the knowledge they posessed. a period of enlightenment began. what happened to baghdad after the dark ages lightened up?
It seems to me, when the 'nation of islam' willfully coexisted with other cultures, islam flourished. when the 'nation of islam' chastised kufrs and isolated themselves from foreign influences, they suffered. Even today, who are the muslims that are successful and happy? the ones that are in western countries sharing their culture with the rest of the world. who are the ones that are miserable and want nothing but war and anarchy? (of course it should be recognized this generalization doesn't apply only to muslims, but in fact it applies globally)
2) Mongolian attacks in 1261, they destroyed Baghdad, the capital of Islamic civilisation, completely and killed most of its people: 700000 victims. All the scientific heritage and documents were thrown in Digress river (the water of this river converted to dark blue, colour of ink at that time).
Bilal said:
2) Mongolian attacks in 1261, they destroyed Baghdad, the capital of Islamic civilisation, completely and killed most of its people: 700000 victims. All the scientific heritage and documents were thrown in Digress river (the water of this river converted to dark blue, colour of ink at that time).
4) Since 15th century, Muslims were following the classical Islamic laws and what the ancient scholars developed. They never tried to develop the Islamic laws and to give chance for new scholars.
According to Karen Armstrong in "The Battle for God" (a survey of Christian, Jewish and Islamic fundamentalism) #2 shook up the muslum world so badly that is seemed safer to stick to the old ways and to stop innovation. She explains it better than I can, of course.
Machiavelli
28-05-02, 05:38 PM
very interesting, i'll have to have a look at that book Lala. could have more important lessons in it.
LanceThrusterX
16-11-03, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by samadams
I can't say I know the answer to why Arabs have fallen so low but I do point out that not all MUSLIMS have fallen like the Arabs and that US Muslims and US Arabs do quite well.
Additional clues may rest in some isolated facts.
Middle Eastern doctors complain that they can't use dissection in their medical studies.
Few Middle East students in West schools study humanities.
Sharia, where it is applied, eliminates input from half the population. US Muslims are torn between the US Constitution and the possibility that Shariah might be imposed in the future.
Patents and Copyrights are valued everywhere but the Middle East.
No decent Middle East University.
Sam
Very astute observations Sam.
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