View Full Version : Secret nikkah.....Shhhh! dont tell the family
Showkat
10-06-07, 01:39 AM
http://www.7cgen.com/index.php?showtopic=11639&hl=
Its being discussed on the above link, but we can discuss it here. What are your views on this inshAllah? Its a good idea to read some of the view on the above link.
My shot...this is a question that needs to be addressed to an Imam at least.
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 01:51 AM
First, may you define your understanding of secret nikaah, brother.
Showkat
10-06-07, 02:00 AM
People getting married in secret without consulting their parents
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 02:06 AM
People getting married in secret without consulting their parents
As we all know, ANY nikaah without a wali is INVALID, baatil, period.
Supernova Nebula
10-06-07, 02:18 AM
no nikah without wali
Showkat
10-06-07, 02:29 AM
Can't you appoint a different walee other than your parents?
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 02:32 AM
Can't you appoint a different walee other than your parents?
NO. You don't just appoint whoever you wish, brother. As long as the father is alive, then ONLY him can be her wali generally.
As long as the father is alive, then ONLY him can be her wali generally.
What if he passes away?
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 02:47 AM
What if he passes away?
The most qualified people to arrange a woman’s marriage after her father are: her grandfather, then her son, then her full brother, then a brother through the father, then his sons, then paternal uncles, then their sons, then the father’s paternal uncles, then the ruler (or qaadi – judge).
Source: http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=36209&ln=eng&txt=guardianship
The most qualified people to arrange a woman’s marriage after her father are: her grandfather, then her son, then her full brother, then a brother through the father, then his sons, then paternal uncles, then their sons, then the father’s paternal uncles, then the ruler (or qaadi – judge).
Jazakallah khair for the info :up:
:1popcorn: :wacko: :smack:
*IslamicGirl*
10-06-07, 11:20 AM
:start:
:salams
I'm not a supporter of those secret engagements where the parents don't know - forgive me but parents who raise you since you wer e ababy and couldn't do things yourself and now you're so independant you make a life changing decision without even consulting them... not on!
Me no like.
:wswrwb:
imran1976
10-06-07, 11:24 AM
NO. You don't just appoint whoever you wish, brother. As long as the father is alive, then ONLY him can be her wali generally.
in case of dispute state takes the role of wali.
I know a guy who kept his nikah a secret from his own family...but not the girls side.
heaven2002
10-06-07, 04:57 PM
what would happen if u had secret nikah and then fell pregnant:rubeyes:
Showkat
10-06-07, 09:25 PM
An important point to understand is why Muslim youths are forced to marry in secret?
Do the parents with their cultural practices contribute to their kids marrying in secret?
Lambo5688
10-06-07, 09:29 PM
Most people who do these secret nikkahs land in deep trouble...and end up hurting their parents pretty bad. Emotionally I mean.
Medievalist
10-06-07, 09:37 PM
If a girl can reject her parents approval for a guy then tomorrow she can reject her husbands approval and run off with someone else.
Al-Irhaab
10-06-07, 09:40 PM
If a girl can reject her parents approval for a guy then tomorrow she can reject her husbands approval and run off with someone else.
if parents can reject a girls choice for marrying a man of deen then tomorrow they can force her to marry a munafiq...
logic is flawed for this very reason that is why an alim must always look at reality before application of ahkam...
If a girl can reject her parents approval for a guy then tomorrow she can reject her husbands approval and run off with someone else.
Yea, because women are sooo known for that, whereas men - they never run off with anybody *sarcasm*
muslimah85
10-06-07, 10:08 PM
if parents can reject a girls choice for marrying a man of deen then tomorrow they can force her to marry a munafiq...
logic is flawed for this very reason that is why an alim must always look at reality before application of ahkam...
Maash'Allah for the first time I agree with you :up:
Medievalist
10-06-07, 10:09 PM
if parents can reject a girls choice for marrying a man of deen then tomorrow they can force her to marry a munafiq...
logic is flawed for this very reason that is why an alim must always look at reality before application of ahkam...
So what are you trying to say?
Whats the point of your post? :scratch:
My point is simply that a guy who marries a girl without her parents permission - he cant trust her cos if someone can act like that with the parents then a husband has no chance.
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 10:12 PM
Maash'Allah for the first time I agree with you :up:
:) Bro Irhab is really nice, mashaAllah, u just need to understand him. InshaaAllah, you will agree with him a lot more
Al-Irhaab
10-06-07, 11:47 PM
So what are you trying to say?
Whats the point of your post? :scratch:
My point is simply that a guy who marries a girl without her parents permission - he cant trust her cos if someone can act like that with the parents then a husband has no chance.
well no because the first is permissible and the second adultery.... so basically what your saying is that if a girl does something which islamically might be permissible and secondly might in a specific case be necessary she might do something which is adultery and a grave sin?
that is an example why you should not use logic...
and remember... the loyalty lies to allah *swt* and his messenger *saw* and the deen of islam... not to anyone else....
btw.... if a son marries without his parents happiness and this hurts them will he be so inclined to betray his wife aswell?
Al-Irhaab
10-06-07, 11:47 PM
:) Bro Irhab is really nice, mashaAllah, u just need to understand him. InshaaAllah, you will agree with him a lot more
im not nice take that back *torture*
:salams
islamically...the situation for women and men when it comes to this is different...
1. the permision of the wali is nessesery for the women..unless u follow the single opinion of women not needing a wali for marrige...which then will mean ur daughter cn amrry without ur permission..etc whihc if u follow the opinion throughout the it is said to be persibble however, the conditions for differance between the scoalrs and how to act is very big tpic it self...
2. not telling parents in some situations as in to cause less fitnah? etc or having the imam of the area as the wali is done and usally occurs after tlaking to scolar..etc...
but these thigns are not light matter things coz if the marrige contrct condition r not fufilled then, the sins comited are great...
Enigma Dreamer
10-06-07, 11:55 PM
im not nice take that back *torture*
:)
Me no likes idea whatsoever!
So what are you trying to say?
Whats the point of your post? :scratch:
My point is simply that a guy who marries a girl without her parents permission - he cant trust her cos if someone can act like that with the parents then a husband has no chance.
But it's ok if it's the other way round...? :rubeyes:
btw.... if a son marries without his parents happiness and this hurts them will he be so inclined to betray his wife aswell?
Point well made! By Medi's logic, yes.
Unless of course he's going to argue that women are more prone to cheating, which he could, but that would be a disgustingly wrong chain of thought.
junaidb
11-06-07, 11:59 AM
So what are you trying to say?
Whats the point of your post? :scratch:
My point is simply that a guy who marries a girl without her parents permission - he cant trust her cos if someone can act like that with the parents then a husband has no chance.
Bro Med....the situation is such that if the girls parents dont approve of the guy if he isnt of there culture or that he isnt from there village and that they have arranged her nikah, or some cultural reason other than Islamic reason and the brother Alhamdulillah is a practising muslim, we are indirectly instilling in our life a system other than Islam. culture seems to be the factors considered before Islam.
This is not in the spirit of Islam and thus some of these marriages are accepted by the Moulanas that make these secret nikahs.
I have been personally involved in cases where a guy and gal runs away and makes nikah due to parents refusing them to marry for unislamic reasons as mentioned above.
Very recently we had a case of where there was a guy very pious and practising however he wasnt from an affluent home and he had made a formal proposal for the girls hand in marriage and the girl had likes the boy very much, however the parents (the father) has blankly opposed the marriage for no valid reason. his only reason is that he doesnt like the boy. they both (Father and the Guy are total opposite in that one is muslim by name whilst the other is a rich man who is being stuborn and pride is a factor.
in a nutshell we cannot condemn these marriages as these youngsters dont have the cultural baggage that most of the elders have brought from the Indo-Pak subcontinent.
If the bro and sister are MUSLIM and they are happy with one another Bismillah get them married to save them from
sin.
Maaf for the lengthy reply...
Wassalaam
:coolbro: :coolbro: :coolbro:
Medievalist
11-06-07, 04:11 PM
well no because the first is permissible and the second adultery.... so basically what your saying is that if a girl does something which islamically might be permissible and secondly might in a specific case be necessary she might do something which is adultery and a grave sin?
that is an example why you should not use logic...
and remember... the loyalty lies to allah *swt* and his messenger *saw* and the deen of islam... not to anyone else....
btw.... if a son marries without his parents happiness and this hurts them will he be so inclined to betray his wife aswell?
My point is simple. A person who can reject his/her parents permission/approval for marriage - there is no trusting that person. Yes - the same goes for a guy.
People use fancy words and fancy terms to make these secret nikahs seem ok - oh but they doing it to protect deen. Load of cobblers. These people are selfish - pure and simple and a selfish person is no-ones friends.
Loyalty indeed lies with ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: - and it is ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: who commanded the obedience and respect for parents. These people who delude themselves that it is NECESSARY for me to marry and my parents aren't letting me need a serious wake up. How convenient - you remember your deen when it comes to getting hitched but you forget abt your deen when it comes to obedience to the parents.
Al-Irhaab I aint doubting your intentions bro - but when these type of secret nikahs are encouraged or justified then tbh our people are just looking for an excuse to fulfill their selfish motives. I've seen enough beardos and niqabis to knw that the same fitnah that arises with the "normal" youth occurs with these ones aswell.
There is a social order in Islaam - and you conform to it. Someone asked me to do istikhaarah for him to marry his gf. Her parents were refusing to let her marry and he wanted me to do istikhaarah for him to run off and marry her. I told him straight - if her parents aint happy with it then I aint doing no istikhaarah for this filth.
Why is it that love-marriages and gf/bf marriages are now being tolerated and families celebrating them with great fanfare? because we ourselves open the door to acceptance of these deeds. We tolerate and reconcile with runaway marraiges/elopings and its a slippery slope. Tomorrow when our daughter runs off with Hafizjee or our son brings home a young niqabi - it'll be our own fault for being so short-sighted.
People have to make a stance. I dont approve of love-marraiges, I dont approve of extra-marital relations, I dont approve of girls running off without their parents consent. And what is needed is social boycott of these acts. Yes - according to our hanafi madhab a baligha can do her own nikah if the boy is compatible but the Ulama are quite clear there is risk of no barakah in that nikah.
Because we live in a permissive society we take on the norms of this society and become lenient on things which are frankly unacceptable. A girl deluding herself that " Oh Gosh! It is necessary for me to marry "Brother" Zayd so in this case its ok for me to run-off and marry him and I wont be breaking ALLAH's law or displeasing Him because it's necessary for me and Im doing all this because its a religious necessity" and similarly for a guy. Then funny how these hot-blooded ones can see the necessity there but forget the necessity to respect the parents. Its a simple case of nafs ruling - if a girls father has rejected a proposal for whatever reason then there is a procedure for her to follow - she cant just fulfill her desires and run off.
Medievalist
11-06-07, 04:15 PM
Bro Med....the situation is such that if the girls parents dont approve of the guy if he isnt of there culture or that he isnt from there village and that they have arranged her nikah, or some cultural reason other than Islamic reason and the brother Alhamdulillah is a practising muslim, we are indirectly instilling in our life a system other than Islam. culture seems to be the factors considered before Islam.
This is not in the spirit of Islam and thus some of these marriages are accepted by the Moulanas that make these secret nikahs.
I have been personally involved in cases where a guy and gal runs away and makes nikah due to parents refusing them to marry for unislamic reasons as mentioned above.
Equally there are Mawlanas who refuse to perform a nikah if the parents of the two aren't present.
Whether its islamic reasons or unislamic reasons is beyond the point. Bro you mention that you've involved yourself in a marriage where the parents are refusing - tomorrow Khuda na Khasta - if someone involves himself in your family affair and gets your daughter married to some boy because according to him your refusal is unislamic - how you gonna feel?
These people who get involved and think they doing good need to tread very carefully because what you sow today, you shall reap tomorrow.
peace2u
11-06-07, 04:16 PM
:start:
:salams
I'm not a supporter of those secret engagements where the parents don't know - forgive me but parents who raise you since you wer e ababy and couldn't do things yourself and now you're so independant you make a life changing decision without even consulting them... not on!
Me no like.
:wswrwb:
I totally agree. How can there be any blessings in a marriage that is done in secret?? what are you hiding?? Marriage is about joining not only individuals, but families as well.
Peace
im not nice take that back *torture*
Awww bless. course ur not nice at all *roll eyes* just a mushy:p
Secret nikkahs = height of stupidity.
Al-Irhaab
11-06-07, 05:41 PM
My point is simple. A person who can reject his/her parents permission/approval for marriage - there is no trusting that person. Yes - the same goes for a guy.
People use fancy words and fancy terms to make these secret nikahs seem ok - oh but they doing it to protect deen. Load of cobblers. These people are selfish - pure and simple and a selfish person is no-ones friends.
Loyalty indeed lies with ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: - and it is ALLAH and His Rasul :saw: who commanded the obedience and respect for parents. These people who delude themselves that it is NECESSARY for me to marry and my parents aren't letting me need a serious wake up. How convenient - you remember your deen when it comes to getting hitched but you forget abt your deen when it comes to obedience to the parents.
Al-Irhaab I aint doubting your intentions bro - but when these type of secret nikahs are encouraged or justified then tbh our people are just looking for an excuse to fulfill their selfish motives. I've seen enough beardos and niqabis to knw that the same fitnah that arises with the "normal" youth occurs with these ones aswell.
There is a social order in Islaam - and you conform to it. Someone asked me to do istikhaarah for him to marry his gf. Her parents were refusing to let her marry and he wanted me to do istikhaarah for him to run off and marry her. I told him straight - if her parents aint happy with it then I aint doing no istikhaarah for this filth.
Why is it that love-marriages and gf/bf marriages are now being tolerated and families celebrating them with great fanfare? because we ourselves open the door to acceptance of these deeds. We tolerate and reconcile with runaway marraiges/elopings and its a slippery slope. Tomorrow when our daughter runs off with Hafizjee or our son brings home a young niqabi - it'll be our own fault for being so short-sighted.
People have to make a stance. I dont approve of love-marraiges, I dont approve of extra-marital relations, I dont approve of girls running off without their parents consent. And what is needed is social boycott of these acts. Yes - according to our hanafi madhab a baligha can do her own nikah if the boy is compatible but the Ulama are quite clear there is risk of no barakah in that nikah.
Because we live in a permissive society we take on the norms of this society and become lenient on things which are frankly unacceptable. A girl deluding herself that " Oh Gosh! It is necessary for me to marry "Brother" Zayd so in this case its ok for me to run-off and marry him and I wont be breaking ALLAH's law or displeasing Him because it's necessary for me and Im doing all this because its a religious necessity" and similarly for a guy. Then funny how these hot-blooded ones can see the necessity there but forget the necessity to respect the parents. Its a simple case of nafs ruling - if a girls father has rejected a proposal for whatever reason then there is a procedure for her to follow - she cant just fulfill her desires and run off.
bro please dont confuse fiqh issues...
the obedience to the parents is in the realm of their amarah.... the parents dont have the necessity to be obeyed when it comes to the matter of who a brother or a sister marrys... this is highlighted in the case of the son of umer (ra) who marryed a woman against the wishes of his father and the prophet *saw* consented to it... in the case of a woman it is slightly different because she needs her fathers consent to marry, that is not to say that she needs to marry who he tells her to marry... and if there is a point where her father is forcing her to marry someone impious or refusing to let her marry and she fears sin then she has the right to marry someone without his consent as long as she does so in a valid manner.... no im not saying go out and marry secretly because if she really wanted to then she should marry someone openly and tell her parents openly that she is marrying someone and she should get her an imam involved etc...
but to state that a person who does something permissible cannot be trusted to act like a muslim has NO islamic basis whatsoever...
if you want to talk about reality and 'permissiveness' then thats an even more reason why a lot of kids go against their parents wishes.... in a society where its the norm to lose virginity and having sexual relations by the age of 16 and where there is fitnah and zina everywhere then in such a society it is imperative that kids get married early... if a son or a daughter fears zina and the parents want a degree *rolleyes* then a choice must be made and for me that choice is simple protect your deen over protecting the culture of ur parents... thats not to say again run off... tell them speak to them and ask them to find a husband or wife for u... if they dont then contact an iman and get him to speak to them etc and then as a last resort get married openly and tell them openly...
right and wrong are determined by quran and sunnah and through the rulings of the ulema... not through cultural niceties or feelings of appropriateness or inappropriateness ...
Medievalist
11-06-07, 08:03 PM
bro please dont confuse fiqh issues...
The posts of mine are not confusing any fiqh related issues. They are to do with akhlaaq and tehzeeb. I dont believe I have denied the validity of such a nikah - with the necessary conditions. So bro - please refrain from accusing me of muddling fiqh issues when my posts are not on the topic of fiqh - but rather on akhlaaq and tehzeeb.
the obedience to the parents is in the realm of their amarah.... the parents dont have the necessity to be obeyed when it comes to the matter of who a brother or a sister marrys... this is highlighted in the case of the son of umer (ra) who marryed a woman against the wishes of his father and the prophet *saw* consented to it... in the case of a woman it is slightly different because she needs her fathers consent to marry, that is not to say that she needs to marry who he tells her to marry... and if there is a point where her father is forcing her to marry someone impious or refusing to let her marry and she fears sin then she has the right to marry someone without his consent as long as she does so in a valid manner.... no im not saying go out and marry secretly because if she really wanted to then she should marry someone openly and tell her parents openly that she is marrying someone and she should get her an imam involved etc...
This is again on the basis of fiqh. But Im talking abt akhlaaq/tehzeeb. And there's nothing I disagree with in the above passage. On the same note - the fatwah maybe that he can marry without parental approval but what kind of message is this to give to the 17 yr old college student who cant control himself. The fatwah may well be true but from the point of view of taqwa and akhlaaq is this correct? Is it correct that a boy marry who he wanst without consulting or without taking the advice of his parents. Its this act of people of giving the lenient fatwah that has created so many problems. Today we try to go with the dial-a-fatwah system where the issue which appeals to us and is easiest is enacted. The Ulama are to promote virtue and prevent vice and the promotion of virtue is to enhance the taqwa of the society - not to get bogged down in the legalities of issues.
but to state that a person who does something permissible cannot be trusted to act like a muslim has NO islamic basis whatsoever...
The basis in grounded on the fact that people do not hold the lofty character and manners of the previous generations. Today the ones who run-off and marry are by-and-large the ones who lack much in morality and culture. The basis is infact very strong. If a man/woman runs off and marries without parental consent/approval - it says a lot. Namely that if they didnt have enough respect for the people who raised them when they couldnt even wipe their own bottoms - what can we expect them to respect or honour us who have only enterred their life for four days.
if you want to talk about reality and 'permissiveness' then thats an even more reason why a lot of kids go against their parents wishes.... in a society where its the norm to lose virginity and having sexual relations by the age of 16 and where there is fitnah and zina everywhere then in such a society it is imperative that kids get married early... if a son or a daughter fears zina and the parents want a degree *rolleyes* then a choice must be made and for me that choice is simple protect your deen over protecting the culture of ur parents... thats not to say again run off... tell them speak to them and ask them to find a husband or wife for u... if they dont then contact an iman and get him to speak to them etc and then as a last resort get married openly and tell them openly... ...
again nothing that I disagree with in the above passage.
right and wrong are determined by quran and sunnah and through the rulings of the ulema... not through cultural niceties or feelings of appropriateness or inappropriateness ...
again correct. But what I am questioning is this so-called religious reason why young people are running-off. Its a complete whitewash; people twisting the holy shari'ah when it suits them and rejecting the aspects when it doesnt. Put simply - people of high character, with correct upbringing and good culture do not run-off and get married. If they have urges and the parents are not understanding then the person of taqwa will strangle his/her urge and submit to the parents. Lets not make fanciful explanations to cloudy the issue - its either the fulfilment of ones urge or the obedience to the parents. The choice is simple - you can control your sexual urge and keep the honour and respect of your parents - or you can cop out and submit to your physical needs and whilst remaining reject your parents maan.
There are two things - fatwa and taqwa. In fatwa a lot is permitted - a man can marry four women and not tell any of them that he is married, a man can leave his nawaafil and pray only the fard/wajib/sunnah namaz. But then the opinion of taqwa is whats important and what matters more. The fatwa is indeed that an elopment marriage with the conditions is valid in our hanafi madhab - but is that the actions of a muttaqi? Set aside the EXTREME situations where it may be hte actions of a muttaqi. generally speaking such a marriage although legally valid is an empty shell lacking the barakah that the du'as of the elders bring.
There is nothing cultural about it. The ulama may have given the fatwah that such an act is permissible and valid but their taqwah will prevent them from getting involved in such situations. Our Asaatizah will not marry a couple if the parents are not involved - simple as.
Our Asaatizah will not marry a couple if the parents are not involved - simple as.
That's ridiculous, what comes first? The objection by parents on mostly silly grounds, or the happiness and well being of a mature and grown-up couple who want to live their life happily (& Islamically I might add)?
Al-Irhaab
11-06-07, 09:14 PM
The posts of mine are not confusing any fiqh related issues. They are to do with akhlaaq and tehzeeb. I dont believe I have denied the validity of such a nikah - with the necessary conditions. So bro - please refrain from accusing me of muddling fiqh issues when my posts are not on the topic of fiqh - but rather on akhlaaq and tehzeeb.
This is again on the basis of fiqh. But Im talking abt akhlaaq/tehzeeb. And there's nothing I disagree with in the above passage. On the same note - the fatwah maybe that he can marry without parental approval but what kind of message is this to give to the 17 yr old college student who cant control himself. The fatwah may well be true but from the point of view of taqwa and akhlaaq is this correct? Is it correct that a boy marry who he wanst without consulting or without taking the advice of his parents. Its this act of people of giving the lenient fatwah that has created so many problems. Today we try to go with the dial-a-fatwah system where the issue which appeals to us and is easiest is enacted. The Ulama are to promote virtue and prevent vice and the promotion of virtue is to enhance the taqwa of the society - not to get bogged down in the legalities of issues.
The basis in grounded on the fact that people do not hold the lofty character and manners of the previous generations. Today the ones who run-off and marry are by-and-large the ones who lack much in morality and culture. The basis is infact very strong. If a man/woman runs off and marries without parental consent/approval - it says a lot. Namely that if they didnt have enough respect for the people who raised them when they couldnt even wipe their own bottoms - what can we expect them to respect or honour us who have only enterred their life for four days.
again nothing that I disagree with in the above passage.
again correct. But what I am questioning is this so-called religious reason why young people are running-off. Its a complete whitewash; people twisting the holy shari'ah when it suits them and rejecting the aspects when it doesnt. Put simply - people of high character, with correct upbringing and good culture do not run-off and get married. If they have urges and the parents are not understanding then the person of taqwa will strangle his/her urge and submit to the parents. Lets not make fanciful explanations to cloudy the issue - its either the fulfilment of ones urge or the obedience to the parents. The choice is simple - you can control your sexual urge and keep the honour and respect of your parents - or you can cop out and submit to your physical needs and whilst remaining reject your parents maan.
There are two things - fatwa and taqwa. In fatwa a lot is permitted - a man can marry four women and not tell any of them that he is married, a man can leave his nawaafil and pray only the fard/wajib/sunnah namaz. But then the opinion of taqwa is whats important and what matters more. The fatwa is indeed that an elopment marriage with the conditions is valid in our hanafi madhab - but is that the actions of a muttaqi? Set aside the EXTREME situations where it may be hte actions of a muttaqi. generally speaking such a marriage although legally valid is an empty shell lacking the barakah that the du'as of the elders bring.
There is nothing cultural about it. The ulama may have given the fatwah that such an act is permissible and valid but their taqwah will prevent them from getting involved in such situations. Our Asaatizah will not marry a couple if the parents are not involved - simple as.
bro akhlaaq cannot be bad if it is based on something which is permitted and which is weighed up by advice from the ulema... also when you said that such people cannot be trusted your saying they're gonna commit sin as running off with someone else when ur married is not just bad akhlaaq it is sin.... akhlaaq other then that which is defined by quran and sunnah is again based upon reality and reasoning and if the reality is that the parents are acting ignorant and jahil and the woman gets married to save her deen then there is nothing bad akhlaaq about this...
again ur making assumptions about the issue of why they do such actions.... fulfillment of urges is not haram nor is it bad, its a necessity and a very high sunnah not one that someone has the right to stop u in... also in many cases sisters go and marry someone because their parents are forcing them to marry jahil people which would put them into sin and cause them to lose their deen.... sisters and brothers who are practicing dont wake up one day think oh i need to run off with some guy because i need to fulfill my urge *rolleyes* if they wanted to just fulfill their urges it wouldnt matter who they marry ...
the barakah of parents who dont pray dont fast and dont abide by the deen of islam is not gonna come from just obeying them in their ignorance its gonna come with changing their ignorance and teaching them islam and not by abandoning your deen to please them...
and its surprising you say none of our asatizah will marry such a couple because it is normally our ulema that help and marry such couples and go and speak to their parents and advise them off the deen rather than abandoning them to jahilliyyah
Medievalist
11-06-07, 09:38 PM
bro akhlaaq cannot be bad if it is based on something which is permitted and which is weighed up by advice from the ulema... also when you said that such people cannot be trusted your saying they're gonna commit sin as running off with someone else when ur married is not just bad akhlaaq it is sin.... akhlaaq other then that which is defined by quran and sunnah is again based upon reality and reasoning and if the reality is that the parents are acting ignorant and jahil and the woman gets married to save her deen then there is nothing bad akhlaaq about this...
again ur making assumptions about the issue of why they do such actions.... fulfillment of urges is not haram nor is it bad, its a necessity and a very high sunnah not one that someone has the right to stop u in... also in many cases sisters go and marry someone because their parents are forcing them to marry jahil people which would put them into sin and cause them to lose their deen.... sisters and brothers who are practicing dont wake up one day think oh i need to run off with some guy because i need to fulfill my urge *rolleyes* if they wanted to just fulfill their urges it wouldnt matter who they marry ...
the barakah of parents who dont pray dont fast and dont abide by the deen of islam is not gonna come from just obeying them in their ignorance its gonna come with changing their ignorance and teaching them islam and not by abandoning your deen to please them...
and its surprising you say none of our asatizah will marry such a couple because it is normally our ulema that help and marry such couples and go and speak to their parents and advise them off the deen rather than abandoning them to jahilliyyah
1. Bro you're taking the stance that these people who run off and get married are people who are doing it for their deen. Are you living in the same UK that I live in cos from the people in my locality the ones who run-off:
a) dont give two anythings abt deen
b) have engaged in haraam relationships
c) are blinded by lust/infatuation
In the light of the current situation of the muslim youth - telling them that getting married without parental approval is irresponsible. Today every person twists things to how they want - regardless of whether they practicing or not. The non-practicing one will take the above permissibility and go along the lines that God wants me to be happy, God wants me to marry someone who is good for me, God says I can marry who I want, my parents are cultural ignorants and they dont understand me but Bakr/Parveen understands me so my religion says I can marry him/her. :nono:
Understand the situation bro - the youth today dont need this kind of info - they are reckless enough as it is.
And the religious/praciticing groups will go along with the same logic aswell. Deluding themselves that its their deen which they are striving to protect whereas in reality they are already infatuated with the guy/gyal and are cloaking this infatuation with religious terminology.
2. In regards to exceptions - yes there are extreme situations where a person does marry to protect deen, or where a persons parents are being unreasonable but these are the very rare cases. Undoubtedly many of our elders are culturfyed - but that only becomes a valid reason for a person to marry without parental permission WHEN the child is pure in intention and act. From the cases that have come before us - the guy/gyal may well be practicing, the parents may be into culture, but the guy/gyal already have their infatuation set on each other - in that case it doesnt matter what the parents are - the kids are not in a moral position to go against the parents because if the parents are not so religious (due to culture) then the kids aint exactly the shining stars of religious activity (due to their already deluded lust for each other).
3. They fulfill their urges because the ones who run-off and wed - practicing or non-practicing - have already attached themselves emotionally with the one they run off with. They become infatuated and blinded by their lust so yes - it is them fulfilling their lust for the other - even if they cloak it with a religious exterior.
4. In regards to Ulama. No doubt Ulama will go and advise parents but in our experience atleast - when a young man and woman approaches the asaatizah asking to have the nikah read - Mawlana will tell the man to do 1.
5. Bro you're looking at this form the wrong angle. You're looking at it as though our muslim youth are fortresses of modesty and faith - and that their parents are tieing the stone of culture around their necks - so the young romeo and juliet are forced to wed behind the parents back :rotfl: - This isnt the case. The VAST MAJORITY of these marriages are based on lust, are based on a previous haraam relationship, are based on infatuation.
I think I've said all I need to. If you still think that these people who run-off are doing good or that its because of some holy and pure motive then thats your choice. I dont deny there are very very very rare exceptions but talking generally this kind of marriage is not on and is a symptom of the sickness.
Redmist
11-06-07, 09:40 PM
Agree with ya Medevilist :up:
on a side note - kem che bro? :D
No parents are that jaahil that they refuse to let their son/daughter marry someone because they themselves are completely Godless. Usually those kind of parents couldnt give a hoot who you marry - and so you could marry any joe bloggs/jane doe.
Its almost as if parents are Evil Number One and the boy/girl in question are angelic Islamists who are "painfully" being kept apart for no reason what so ever (even if the reasons are as petty as race, caste, creed, ethnic background etc)
I agree with point no 5 of yours Medi.
Bro you're looking at this form the wrong angle. You're looking at it as though our muslim youth are fortresses of modesty and faith - and that their parents are tieing the stone of culture around their necks - so the young romeo and juliet are forced to wed behind the parents back :rotfl: - This isnt the case. The VAST MAJORITY of these marriages are based on lust, are based on a previous haraam relationship, are based on infatuation.
Al-Irhaab
11-06-07, 09:43 PM
1. Bro you're taking the stance that these people who run off and get married are people who are doing it for their deen. Are you living in the same UK that I live in cos from the people in my locality the ones who run-off:
a) dont give two anythings abt deen
b) have engaged in haraam relationships
c) are blinded by lust/infatuation
In the light of the current situation of the muslim youth - telling them that getting married without parental approval is irresponsible. Today every person twists things to how they want - regardless of whether they practicing or not. The non-practicing one will take the above permissibility and go along the lines that God wants me to be happy, God wants me to marry someone who is good for me, God says I can marry who I want, my parents are cultural ignorants and they dont understand me but Bakr/Parveen understands me so my religion says I can marry him/her. :nono:
Understand the situation bro - the youth today dont need this kind of info - they are reckless enough as it is.
And the religious/praciticing groups will go along with the same logic aswell. Deluding themselves that its their deen which they are striving to protect whereas in reality they are already infatuated with the guy/gyal and are cloaking this infatuation with religious terminology.
2. In regards to exceptions - yes there are extreme situations where a person does marry to protect deen, or where a persons parents are being unreasonable but these are the very rare cases. Undoubtedly many of our elders are culturfyed - but that only becomes a valid reason for a person to marry without parental permission WHEN the child is pure in intention and act. From the cases that have come before us - the guy/gyal may well be practicing, the parents may be into culture, but the guy/gyal already have their infatuation set on each other - in that case it doesnt matter what the parents are - the kids are not in a moral position to go against the parents because if the parents are not so religious (due to culture) then the kids aint exactly the shining stars of religious activity (due to their already deluded lust for each other).
3. They fulfill their urges because the ones who run-off and wed - practicing or non-practicing - have already attached themselves emotionally with the one they run off with. They become infatuated and blinded by their lust so yes - it is them fulfilling their lust for the other - even if they cloak it with a religious exterior.
4. In regards to Ulama. No doubt Ulama will go and advise parents but in our experience atleast - when a young man and woman approaches the asaatizah asking to have the nikah read - Mawlana will tell the man to do 1.
5. Bro you're looking at this form the wrong angle. You're looking at it as though our muslim youth are fortresses of modesty and faith - and that their parents are tieing the stone of culture around their necks - so the young romeo and juliet are forced to wed behind the parents back :rotfl: - This isnt the case. The VAST MAJORITY of these marriages are based on lust, are based on a previous haraam relationship, are based on infatuation.
I think I've said all I need to. If you still think that these people who run-off are doing good or that its because of some holy and pure motive then thats your choice. I dont deny there are very very very rare exceptions but talking generally this kind of marriage is not on and is a symptom of the sickness.
bro am not talking about jahil muslims... *rolleyes* when we talk about islamic actions we never talk about jahil muslims.... theyl just as easily commit zina as get married...
the issue is with practicing muslims and how they are treated by so called elders...and from what i have seen most of this occurs because of fear of zina and wanting to live islamically not because they fall in love with someone....
and believe me a lot of the ulema will marry a couple who come to them without their parents.... just go into a masjid and try it
Finally, I agree with Medi (partly) as well!
Although...not sure if it's always lust or love - ain't got that sorted in my head yet :), but that's another topic.
Medievalist
11-06-07, 09:46 PM
Just to add. Me and a very good friend of mine were discussing the rise in love-marriages, or marriages where the guy/gyal were bf/gf for ages in our society and what our stance should be on them. Today it has become - ma'aadhALLAH - a norm to see families celebrating with great pomp and splendor the marriage of a bf\gf.
We were making mashwarah on what our stance should be to this and alhamdulillah the result was that we weren't going to support these marriages by our presence, nor by participating in them. At a later stage we will go and congratulate the couple on their nikah but we are not going to give our stamp of approval to such episodes because it has been noted that when religious people attend such gatherings and do not condemn the nature of the initial relationship the effects are going to be catastrophic.
In years to come we will see bf/gf weddings become a standard part of the wedding in UK. Mark my words on that. And somebody needs to take a stance. What impression are we giving to the youth when we do not condemn extra-marital relationships and exhibit no shame when we see these people marry and celebrate in great fanfare? This is having a very bad effect on our society - tomorrow it will become the norm for our youth to have a bf'gf relationship and then to marry the person because although we all know it to be wrong - it will become one of those things which become a norm. The example is of the beard or burqa. Uptil about 30 years ago women in the cities of Pakistan would wear the burqa when leaving - slowly slowly they dropped it and now we all knw its wajib for her to veil yet we are apathetic to women coming our unveiled because its become a social norm.
I for one want my kids to know that when their Abba says haraam relationships are completely wrong, that he means it. Rather than see Abba going to other peoples weddings where the bride and groom were a couple ages before nikah and suddenly being all strict on his own children.
Medievalist
11-06-07, 09:48 PM
Agree with ya Medevilist :up:
on a side note - kem che bro? :D
alhamdulillah bala.
and yrself?
Medievalist
11-06-07, 09:57 PM
bro am not talking about jahil muslims... *rolleyes* when we talk about islamic actions we never talk about jahil muslims.... theyl just as easily commit zina as get married...
the issue is with practicing muslims and how they are treated by so called elders...and from what i have seen most of this occurs because of fear of zina and wanting to live islamically not because they fall in love with someone....
and believe me a lot of the ulema will marry a couple who come to them without their parents.... just go into a masjid and try it
You have a high opinion of practicing muslims. From what I've seen - the vast majority of cases of even "practicing" muslims is the same as the non-praciticing ones. They just more clever in covering it up with islamic exterior. Call me a pessimist but to me a niqab or a beard doesnt mean anything.
If a bro was really practicing how would he dare to marry a girl without her fathers approval - does he have no respect for his fellow muslim?
If a girl was really practicing would she really go and marry a guy without her father approval?
I'll tell you a story. There was a muslim man who loved a woman - a lot. Her parents didnt want her to marry him, his parents were just abt willing to go and ask for her. On a certain day that girl begged him, literally begged him, to come and marry her - but he didnt. Later he asked her once that marry me and she replied not without her fathers approval. In this case the guy had ulama's advice all the way throuhg, infact one of his Ustads later told him that had he married that girl without her parents approval then even there would be barakah in that nikah because of the purity of his and her intention. Imagine!
Yet that guy didnt marry her. He aint the most pious fo people and if he wanted he coulda married her when she begged him to - but he couldn't dishnour her father like that. And she loved him for that. And in regards the later time when he did ask her to marry him - and she refused because it was not with parental permission - that made him love her even more because she was the person he thought her to be.
The point of this story is that Ulama are telling te guy, infact the guys Ustaad, says he coulda married her yet he couldnt do that to her father or his own parents and she couldnt do that to her aprents either.Thats whats called qurbani. ALLAH Ta'ala does everything for the best.
And the urge to marry her was intense for thet bro. The way he loved her - lol - too much. But they put their parents maan/laaj above their own pure emotions. And infact ALLAH Ta'ala will reward both of them for their qurbani and one day ALLAH Ta'ala will bring her in his nikah in the right way - sabr and selfcontrol is what was required by them and by the rest of us aswell.
Al-Irhaab
11-06-07, 10:04 PM
You have a high opinion of practicing muslims. From what I've seen - the vast majority of cases of even "practicing" muslims is the same as the non-praciticing ones. They just more clever in covering it up with islamic exterior. Call me a pessimist but to me a niqab or a beard doesnt mean anything.
If a bro was really practicing how would he dare to marry a girl without her fathers approval - does he have no respect for his fellow muslim?
If a girl was really practicing would she really go and marry a guy without her father approval?
I'll tell you a story. There was a muslim man who loved a woman - a lot. Her parents didnt want her to marry him, his parents were just abt willing to go and ask for her. On a certain day that girl begged him, literally begged him, to come and marry her - but he didnt. Later he asked her once that marry me and she replied not without her fathers approval. In this case the guy had ulama's advice all the way throuhg, infact one of his Ustads later told him that had he married that girl without her parents approval then even there would be barakah in that nikah because of the purity of his and her intention. Imagine!
Yet that guy didnt marry her. He aint the most pious fo people and if he wanted he coulda married her when she begged him to - but he couldn't dishnour her father like that. And she loved him for that. And in regards the later time when he did ask her to marry him - and she refused because it was not with parental permission - that made him love her even more because she was the person he thought her to be.
The point of this story is that Ulama are telling te guy, infact the guys Ustaad, says he coulda married her yet he couldnt do that to her father or his own parents and she couldnt do that to her aprents either.Thats whats called qurbani. ALLAH Ta'ala does everything for the best.
And the urge to marry her was intense for thet bro. The way he loved her - lol - too much. But they put their parents maan/laaj above their own pure emotions. And infact ALLAH Ta'ala will reward both of them for their qurbani and one day ALLAH Ta'ala will bring her in his nikah in the right way - sabr and selfcontrol is what was required by them and by the rest of us aswell.
bro i have a high opinion of practicing muslims because allah (swt) commands us to think good of our brothers and sisters not evil... and because i have seen their situations with my own eyes ...
the example that you gave mashallah is a good one, but it is an example of one situation...
ill give you another one... a sister wanted to get married... her parents were forcing her not to act like a muslim ie making it difficult for her to wear hijab etc... she complained to an alim who asked later to a group of brothers if anyone wanted to get married.... one bro said yes, the alim told him abt the situation so he went down to the girls house and asked the parents permission... parents refused etc he kept trying parents were having none of it.... so the sister went to the alim and he phoned the parents and told them that the two were getting married and they got married mashallah and now have a few kids and a good marriage.... now in that situation wot do u expect the sister to do? live with a family and do sin or go and get married?
Medievalist
11-06-07, 10:08 PM
bro i have a high opinion of practicing muslims because allah (swt) commands us to think good of our brothers and sisters not evil... and because i have seen their situations with my own eyes ...
the example that you gave mashallah is a good one, but it is an example of one situation...
ill give you another one... a sister wanted to get married... her parents were forcing her not to act like a muslim ie making it difficult for her to wear hijab etc... she complained to an alim who asked later to a group of brothers if anyone wanted to get married.... one bro said yes, the alim told him abt the situation so he went down to the girls house and asked the parents permission... parents refused etc he kept trying parents were having none of it.... so the sister went to the alim and he phoned the parents and told them that the two were getting married and they got married mashallah and now have a few kids and a good marriage.... now in that situation wot do u expect the sister to do? live with a family and do sin or go and get married?
these are rare cases. mashaALLAH at that case - but you are taking exceptions and making your comments based on those. Im talking from the general situation bro.
In regards practicing. Whats the line between practicing and non-practicing. If you think gud of practicing bros then you should think gud of non-practicing ones aswell - its their being muslims which entitles them to being treated well innit?
I mean - a practicing bro - reads his namaz, has a beard. But we know he drinks and is messing around with a girl. Is he practicing or non-practicing?
or like the lady we knw who wears niqab and burqa and she's unmarried and had an abortion a few months back. Is she practicing or non-practicing?
See what I mean bro? I dont care what a person looks like on the outside - its the details of the run-off marriage that matter. :)
Al-Irhaab
11-06-07, 10:11 PM
these are rare cases. mashaALLAH at that case - but you are taking exceptions and making your comments based on those. Im talking from the general situation bro.
In regards practicing. Whats the line between practicing and non-practicing. If you think gud of practicing bros then you should think gud of non-practicing ones aswell - its their being muslims which entitles them to being treated well innit?
I mean - a practicing bro - reads his namaz, has a beard. But we know he drinks and is messing around with a girl. Is he practicing or non-practicing?
or like the lady we knw who wears niqab and burqa and she's unmarried and had an abortion a few months back. Is she practicing or non-practicing?
See what I mean bro? I dont care what a person looks like on the outside - its the details of the run-off marriage that matter. :)
thats what i said man its the details that matter so you cant say as an offhand comment that people who do this are gonna run off when they get married....
the line between practicing and not practicing is vague... but someone who commits zina we can all agree is not practicing... and someone who doesnt pray and doesnt fast is not practicing.... and youll find that most practicing bros and sisters who get married without their parents consent their parents dont pray or fast or where hijab etc.... i mean call it a coincidence but it speaks for itself...
Redmist
11-06-07, 10:12 PM
alhamdulillah bala.
and yrself?
Gd bro :up:
listen bro dnt concern urself with secret nikhas bf nd gf getting married secretly..its nothing u can change nd its been happning for time!
Medievalist
11-06-07, 10:16 PM
Redmist: bro I aint concerned abt it. Irhaabs been doing ma head in man :torture:
Medievalist
11-06-07, 10:17 PM
thats what i said man its the details that matter so you cant say as an offhand comment that people who do this are gonna run off when they get married....
When talking generally then details dont matter. Generally its the heer/raanjas of alum rock who getting eloped - generally if she could do that to her daddy, she sure as hell could do that to her raanja **roll eyes**
Redmist
11-06-07, 10:18 PM
Redmist: bro I aint concerned abt it. Irhaabs been doing ma head in man :torture:
Leave Irhaab to it. U knw das the best thing...no point arguing with him :D
Al-Irhaab
12-06-07, 12:46 AM
When talking generally then details dont matter. Generally its the heer/raanjas of alum rock who getting eloped - generally if she could do that to her daddy, she sure as hell could do that to her raanja **roll eyes**
generally heer ranja was mashed and generally heer ranja didnt where hijaab and pray five times a day of have a beard... so generally we aint talking about the general jahil muslim we talking about the practicing ones and generally they dont run off with ranjas best friend *rolleyes*
RashidD
12-06-07, 01:17 AM
No parents are that jaahil that they refuse to let their son/daughter marry someone because they themselves are completely Godless. Usually those kind of parents couldnt give a hoot who you marry - and so you could marry any joe bloggs/jane doe.
Its almost as if parents are Evil Number One and the boy/girl in question are angelic Islamists who are "painfully" being kept apart for no reason what so ever (even if the reasons are as petty as race, caste, creed, ethnic background etc)
I agree with point no 5 of yours Medi.
Sometimes parents may refuse as they i dunno how to put this, feel the boy is too practising or something? (N'authubillah)
a muslim bro and sis is accountable for his/her own actions from the age of 14 onwards... :o
Medievalist
12-06-07, 06:38 AM
generally heer ranja was mashed and generally heer ranja didnt where hijaab and pray five times a day of have a beard... so generally we aint talking about the general jahil muslim we talking about the practicing ones and generally they dont run off with ranjas best friend *rolleyes*
you mean you aint talking abt general situations. You're making general comments but for exceptional cases - Im making general comments for general muslims.
**roll eyes**
Sometimes parents may refuse as they i dunno how to put this, feel the boy is too practising or something? (N'authubillah)
If they think he's inclined to chopping off heads and arms and shouts "JIHAAAAD" every second of the day - they'd be within their right to be concerned and refuse.
Neurostyler
12-06-07, 11:20 AM
Assuming the family wouldn't use physical force or attempt to emotionally blackmail two adults into not getting married, I would think it's better to be open about who you wish to marry.
selfish little kids chasing their desires :vomit:
Showkat
13-06-07, 10:52 PM
Thats a bit harsh to call them selfish little kids follwoing their desires. Many people are forced to amrry against their wishes by their parents and not many people condemn that at all.
Thats a bit harsh to call them selfish little kids follwoing their desires. Many people are forced to amrry against their wishes by their parents and not many people condemn that at all.
its exactly what they are :rolleyes:
the "i want to marry this pious guy my family dont agree so we'll get married secretly" is a load of rubbish
firstly, i dont believe a truely pious guy would marry a girl without her wali's permission
secondly, they will most likely need to lie to their family and parents to cover up their secret nikah
they can use all the excuses they want but the real reason is that they r chasing their desires :rolleyes:
*hayat*
14-06-07, 04:16 PM
NO. You don't just appoint whoever you wish, brother. As long as the father is alive, then ONLY him can be her wali generally.
if the father is alive does that mean it has to be him? i meant an older brother or mum/dad's brother is it now allowed to have them instead of father?
selfish little kids chasing their desires :vomit:
THAT IS SO RUDE
THAT IS SO RUDE
i think you should report her. about time she got banned. shes post offensive rubbish about people all the time. so upsetting, feel like crying and leaving the forum for good some days. dont know why she gets away with it.
i think you should report her. about time she got banned. shes post offensive rubbish about people all the time. so upsetting, feel like crying and leaving the forum for good some days. dont know why she gets away with it.
uhh i dont think shes learned the ropes just yet... :p u'll get poor mms in trouble :(
who are u guys taking about...mm or nakx
so wat like ya think they doing it to please Allah?? :rolleyes:
and eemaan why don't you shut yer ugly gob, i have had about enough of you're rubbish, i am sick and tired of your constant little jibes, why don't you go and get a life or something :rolleyes:
why did your mother ever let you out of her stomach? :( why are you so vile and vindictive?
do you know how horrible you sound? do you make roti for your parents with the same finger you type your venom with????
*IslamicGirl*
26-03-08, 07:55 PM
:start:
:salams
THAT IS SO RUDE
No it's not- it's a fact the sister has expressed sis :)
Ditto to sis MMS- it is selfish if your parents are Muslims and are aware of Islamic principles.
Getting married on the sly is hardly something credible, if you have a conscious you’ll be guilt ridden that it could affect your relationship- why not be straight up with your parents?
Personally I think a big fuss is raised over something that isn’t too much of a big issue in reality.
You can win anyone you want over depending on how you interact with them- your parents can be your best friends or they can be distant strangers. Make your parents your best friends to the extent they know your wishes and desires esp. regarding marriage.
What is a marriage on the secret going to achieve? Temporary bliss?
Rather stay single thank you very much.
:wswrwb:
:start:
:salams
No it's not- it's a fact the sister has expressed sis :)
Ditto to sis MMS- it is selfish if your parents are Muslims and are aware of Islamic principles.
Getting married on the sly is hardly something credible, if you have a conscious you’ll be guilt ridden that it could affect your relationship- why not be straight up with your parents?
Personally I think a big fuss is raised over something that isn’t too much of a big issue in reality.
You can win anyone you want over depending on how you interact with them- your parents can be your best friends or they can be distant strangers. Make your parents your best friends to the extent they know your wishes and desires esp. regarding marriage.
What is a marriage on the secret going to achieve? Temporary bliss?
Rather stay single thank you very much.
:wswrwb:
it may be a fact, and yh i may agree with it...but come one there are nicer ways of putting things
why did your mother ever let you out of her stomach? :( why are you so vile and vindictive?
do you know how horrible you sound? do you make roti for your parents with the same finger you type your venom with????
and as for you! u shouldnt bring her cooking for her parents into this... thats got nothing to do with this
was funny though but still be nicer :up:
*IslamicGirl*
26-03-08, 08:03 PM
:start:
:salams
it may be a fact, and yh i may agree with it...but come one there are nicer ways of putting things
Sometimes sugar coating things is a bad way of expressing things.
A dose of cold, hard reality is vital at times sis.
Sis MMS didn't mean anything bad, she expressed her opinion in her way- and it's one i agree with and don't find a problem with the way she worded it- these people who do this aren't kids- if they feel 'adult' enough to get married like this, i'm sure they're 'adult' enough to hear a few home truths without the icing :)
:wswrwb:
Phoenix CG
26-03-08, 08:04 PM
whoever does this, will never be happy...(unless they get abused n that, n had it as last resort)
why did your mother ever let you out of her stomach? :( why are you so vile and vindictive?
do you know how horrible you sound? do you make roti for your parents with the same finger you type your venom with????
why you bringing my parents into it :S haven't you got any manners? :S you call yourself a teacher?? this is why i shall never send my children to public schools because these are the sort of teachers who we have teaching our kids, astaghfirullah, may Allah guide you
souljaa
26-03-08, 08:24 PM
so wat like ya think they doing it to please Allah?? :rolleyes:
and eemaan why don't you shut yer ugly gob, i have had about enough of you're rubbish, i am sick and tired of your constant little jibes, why don't you go and get a life or something :rolleyes:
I don't mean to spoil the fun and stuff but it's your and not you're :outta:
why you bringing my parents into it :S haven't you got any manners? :S you call yourself a teacher?? this is why i shall never send my children to public schools because these are the sort of teachers who we have teaching our kids, astaghfirullah, may Allah guide you
lol i agree, i went to an all girls private school in australia... i would neva send my kids to mixed, it didnt hurt me, infact it was much beter no temptation
Omar Mukhtar
26-03-08, 09:29 PM
ohh fight goin on ere, why you 2 fighting for? make up now.
Medievalist
26-03-08, 09:34 PM
do you make roti for your parents with the same finger you type your venom with????
Bro, you know what these uk gyals are like AND she's a baluchite. dont hate on her, pity her.
General: :1popcorn:
catfight fight fight fight !!
:outta:
Chained_Water
26-03-08, 10:03 PM
Bro, you know what these uk gyals are like AND she's a baluchite. dont hate on her, pity her.
General: :1popcorn:
catfight fight fight fight !!
:outta:
:rofl1:
Them two are a classic comedy duo :D
Sabina_Warda
26-03-08, 10:08 PM
Your family is your family. One one should go against their family if their family is a muslim. What would be the point in that? In my exprience, people who do that often live to regret it. No marriage is worth our families. Have patience and wait- is what I say. Make dua....and wait. :sub:
Salman Al-Farsi
26-03-08, 11:13 PM
There has to be a balance and moderation between the children seeking parental happiness and parents doing the same. Secret Nikahs are direct result of poor parenting, so even when the children decide to do the right thing by marrying a bro/sis who is good for them for marriage purposes, they have absolutely no confidence in being able to explain this to their parents. That is most probably because they don't have a frank relationship with their parents in the first place, where both parties are to be blamed for not making the effort to live and properly care for eachother.
I think the parent-child relationship is very important, and it should be built in a way that both the parents and children are happy with joint decisions particularly about marriage.
Medievalist
26-03-08, 11:14 PM
Salman: I disagree with you bro. Sometimes parents give the best education/upbringing to the kids and are understanding and the kids turn out bad and rebellious. Parents may well blame themselves for how their kids turn out, but in truth its not always the parents fault.
Salman Al-Farsi
26-03-08, 11:48 PM
Salman: I disagree with you bro. Sometimes parents give the best education/upbringing to the kids and are understanding and the kids turn out bad and rebellious. Parents may well blame themselves for how their kids turn out, but in truth its not always the parents fault.
I actually agree with you bro, I think I should have elaborated on what I said about there being a balance between parents loving the children and children loving the parents, ie both parties should be considerate of each other and thier happiness. They key in my opinion is how the relationship between parents and children is developed. Also IMO run away/secret marriages are almost always due to bad parenting, but thats not necessarly the parents fault because most of Asian parents who came at young age as economic migrants themselves recieved little parenting/training.
Chained_Water
27-03-08, 12:11 AM
I think it's unfair to blame it on parenting, most parents, esp asian ones, every move they make is about their kids and their whole life is about parenting.. might not always be perfect but no parents are, and that doesn't equate to being poor at it either.
Secret marriages are always on the kids heads.. not the parents, the parents are the victims of the secrecy, deceit, lies, disrespect and betrayal.
It's usually to do with the naivity [stupidity] of youth, of young people eager to marry and have quick easy solutions after getting involved in a relationship they know they shouldn't have because it's wrong.
Because they know it's not allowed either by religion or parents.. they keep it hidden and try to halaal it [they probably do mostly have good intention in wanting to marry] but the fact it's hidden means they don't get the much needed wisdom and advice of their elders, they don't face the reality of marriage or how much in involves family, they don't have anyone to remind them the serious nature of the decision and all the different things they should carefully consider.. they just look at one thing "I love him/her and wanna be with him/her for life and want it to be legal in the eyes of God." Whoop-di-doo :smack:
This is fairy-tale stage.. only after they do it does reality become apparent.. and sometimes it takes months, other times years to see it for what it really is, being utterly disrespectful to those who raised you since you were a baby, and being really naive of what marriage is.. putting yourself in a situation where secrets breed secrets and you end up having a double life and that is seriously damaging to a persons mental health and personality.. some people end up losing their parents, divorced and having ruined their life.
I know one case where a sis got married on the sly, ran away, came back home, still married but parents decided no after that you are doing what we say and marrying who we say you will.. but guess what, she's pregnant with her husband.. she aborts the kid because doesn't know what else to do.. gets nikkahed to her parents choice dude but noone is even sure the other guy divorced her.. ends up divorced from both in the end and sat at her parents.. what a mess.
Another bro, gets married on the sly, his wife is living with him in his house and his parents don't know, they come to visit and she has to hide upstairs :smack: ..eventually they find out and are heart broken, don't know how to explain it to anyone, all they can say is, we don't get it, it really hurt us, we would've let him marry her if he told us :( ..sad sad sad.
Another sis, marries on the sly, someone else asks for rishta, her husband goes to their house and shows them the wedding film, they tell her parents.. all hell break loose.. somewhere in between all this she has to have an abortion.. in the end she ends up divorced.. remarries has kids, ends up divorced again..
It's very common.. and it's common because people look at what they can do, not at what is wise.. they look at what is the quickest fix to this situation and don't think about the long term problems they are creating for themselves and their families.. it's just about instant gratification and an inability to delay it.
Anyway who gets through it without getting burned is lucky.. those who get through the inevitable bombs that come afterwards and save the marriage and don't lose their family is very very lucky.
My parents would ....... me if I were to have a secret marriage and I wouldnt either. I cant imagine myself getting hitched without my folks by my side, impossible.
Muujahid
27-03-08, 01:48 AM
i know a few people in this situation and to be honest. its usually the man that has to keep under wraps.
the man doesn't have to report to anyone. Now if their is a sister that he wants to marry and he does that w/ the approval of her walee then their is no sin on either of them.
They can even have a walimah amongst them and close friends, as long as her walee is their to agree w/ the marriage and she agree's, i dont see a problem.
and personally i dont care what the brother has to hide as long as he has a walee present when he marries the sister.
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