question

[abu_musab]

assalamualaikum
i was just wondering if i am allowed to post softwares on here because most softwares i have are not bought ones (if u no wa i mean) just a thought

[Suliman]

assalamualaikum
i was just wondering if i am allowed to post softwares on here because most softwares i have are not bought ones (if u no wa i mean) just a thought

Best not to due to legal issues. If people want them, they usually know where to find them.

[belal1]

if you post links to pirated software, then the site can be taken down by the authorities. please refrain from posting such links.

besides, there's a fatwa that was posted on pirating software, check the general forum, I believe it was brought up a few days ago (originally the thread is kinda old but still relevant).

as salamu alaikum

[.: Rashid :.]

if you post links to pirated software, then the site can be taken down by the authorities. please refrain from posting such links.

besides, there's a fatwa that was posted on pirating software, check the general forum, I believe it was brought up a few days ago (originally the thread is kinda old but still relevant).

as salamu alaikum

Yeah I agree, shouldn't be posted for legal reasons to protect the site, but fatwa about pirating software? I assume you mean it was forbidding it from the sound of your post? :scratch:

I'm of the opinion it is completely halaal to pirate software...read a fatwa on here as well actually. There was a massive thread about it by Salman. Masha'Allah I remember now, he smacked it :D (was owning CW in the debate :p)

See if I can find it...

-Rashid

[belal1]

I have doubts about pirating software and no matter what any scholar says, this doubt will not leave because at the end of the day, stealing is stealing whether it be from a muslim or non-muslim. so for me, it's a big no no since allah swt will judge me at the end of my life, and if I pirate software with doubt on my mind, but say "this scholar has a good point" i'd be agreeing with him for the sake of my greed. and NOT pirating software has no consequences for me, so it works out.

everyone else is free to decide what's best for them, i already decided what's best for me :coolbro:

[.: Rashid :.]

I have doubts about pirating software and no matter what any scholar says, this doubt will not leave because at the end of the day, stealing is stealing whether it be from a muslim or non-muslim. so for me, it's a big no no since allah swt will judge me at the end of my life, and if I pirate software with doubt on my mind, but say "this scholar has a good point" i'd be agreeing with him for the sake of my greed. and NOT pirating software has no consequences for me, so it works out.

everyone else is free to decide what's best for them, i already decided what's best for me :coolbro:

Of course thats up to you akhi, but for me, there's no doubt. Its not just "a good point", the argument is much MUCH stronger on the side of it not being haraam.

Here's (http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50191&&page=2#60) an excellent refutation by akhi Salman of the argument for it being haram.

Same for me, I haven't used pirated software in years, its all about FOSS ;) But it is my opinion that its not haram because I sincerely believe its the stronger opinion. I do pirate movies/DVDs...

Wa Allahu 'Alam

-Rashid

[belal1]

Of course thats up to you akhi, but for me, there's no doubt. Its not just "a good point", the argument is much MUCH stronger on the side of it not being haraam.

Here's (http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50191&&page=2#60) an excellent refutation by akhi Salman of the argument for it being haram.

Same for me, I haven't used pirated software in years, its all about FOSS ;) But it is my opinion that its not haram because I sincerely believe its the stronger opinion. I do pirate movies/DVDs...

Wa Allahu 'Alam

-Rashid


jazakhallahu khairan,

I just read some of the posts and Alhumdulilahi rabbil alamin that it's got me thinking more about IP. However still it seems that me as a person, downloading pirated software is just like going to a thief and buying stolen merchandise that I know he stole. And it seems from everyone's post, the accepted consensus is if it's stolen, then it's a stolen and it's forbidden.

the topic of IP on the other hand goes beyond that since it's an intangible property (an idea, not physical). So something like Patents for example, if I were to infringe on a patent then I see no problem in me infringing on the patent since i'm just applying my ideas and they are similar to someone elses idea but the idea is knowledge and knowledge cannot be owned.

pirated software on the other hand is not an idea. it's a product. products can be stolen but ideas cannot since ideas = knowledge. example of this is pottery. If i make a piece of pottery, like a cup for example, that cup is my product and if someone was to steal it then he is sinning by stealing. but if someone uses my idea and makes the same cup, then he is not stealing (under islam) because he's just using knowledge and his version of my cup is still HIS product.

therefore, if for example I wanted to play pacman and download it from warez site, then i'd be stealing. but if i were to code pacman myself, then it would be permissible since i used knowledge to make a product (my version of pacman). [ignore my use of pacman as a IP, it's probably released under public domain by now unless Namco still holding onto the trademark]

but that's just my take and again, better to play it safe since my knowledge on this is so little.

[.: Rashid :.]

jazakhallahu khairan,

I just read some of the posts and Alhumdulilahi rabbil alamin that it's got me thinking more about IP. However still it seems that me as a person, downloading pirated software is just like going to a thief and buying stolen merchandise that I know he stole. And it seems from everyone's post, the accepted consensus is if it's stolen, then it's a stolen and it's forbidden.

the topic of IP on the other hand goes beyond that since it's an intangible property (an idea, not physical). So something like Patents for example, if I were to infringe on a patent then I see no problem in me infringing on the patent since i'm just applying my ideas and they are similar to someone elses idea but the idea is knowledge and knowledge cannot be owned.

pirated software on the other hand is not an idea. it's a product. products can be stolen but ideas cannot since ideas = knowledge. example of this is pottery. If i make a piece of pottery, like a cup for example, that cup is my product and if someone was to steal it then he is sinning by stealing. but if someone uses my idea and makes the same cup, then he is not stealing (under islam) because he's just using knowledge and his version of my cup is still HIS product.

therefore, if for example I wanted to play pacman and download it from warez site, then i'd be stealing. but if i were to code pacman myself, then it would be permissible since i used knowledge to make a product (my version of pacman). [ignore my use of pacman as a IP, it's probably released under public domain by now unless Namco still holding onto the trademark]

but that's just my take and again, better to play it safe since my knowledge on this is so little.

Under kuffar law, when you buy a CD/DVD for a software, you're just buying a license to install it on X number of computers. The Prophet SAW said a Muslim is bound by his conditions, except when the condition makes haram a halaal. In Islam, such contracts for licenses are not legitimate. In Islam, when you buy something, its yours. If you sell my a cup, that cup is now mine, its not yours in any way, shape, or form, and I have the right to do everything halaal with that cup, whether that be drink from it, sell it, break it, or use it for jihad by throwing it at the kuffar :p Same with a CD, if I buy a software, the CD and all the contents on the CD are mine, and under shariah I have the right to do anything and everything halaal with that CD, whether that be sell it, give it away, play frisbee with it, or copy it and upload it onto the internet. Once someone has sold it to me, they do not own the contents of the CD (the "idea", as is the case with a patent)

Its not stealing, because someone has gone out and legitimately bought a copy of the software, and then uploaded it for everyone else to use. Islamically, thats a right they have and one which under a khilafah would be protected by the state.

In the case of a trial which is cracked, refer to akhi Salman's analogy:


BTW this is no wher near stealing. A jurist would use the following analogy:

You are given a box with no contract, so now its your property, it has two draws, you use one, and other is locked. Later someone makes a key for the locked drawer, you open it and everything in it is yours too. Since the Box is your property.

Wheras there would be sin, if someone gave you the box where you made agreement that you will not use/open the locked drawer, and you did.


I wonder what the shari'ah position is on click-agreements...are they binding in Islam?

Allahu 'Alam

-Rashid

[belal1]

Under kuffar law, when you buy a CD/DVD for a software, you're just buying a license to install it on X number of computers. The Prophet SAW said a Muslim is bound by his conditions, except when the condition makes haram a halaal
Its not stealing, because someone has gone out and legitimately bought a copy of the software, and then uploaded it for everyone else to use. Islamically, thats a right they have and one which under a khilafah would be protected by the state.

-Rashid

see that's just it. first thing is we know it was not bought to begin with because crackers don't buy it, they theif that joint in the first place. second, they did not agree to any contracts because they already had the intention to break the contract in which case the seller did not actually sell it to them.

in islam, it does say to abide by the laws whether kuffar or not, aslong as it doesn't conflict with shari'ah. and by we muslims making the decision to stay in kuffar land, we must also accept their laws which don't conflict with islam. now the shari'ah also says "do not steal". so what the first person's method of obtaining the product is insignificant since when you're installing the product, your AGREEING to the license. If you don't agree, then you don't install it (the installer just exits and you don't get the program). so now you agree to the license, but you have the intention of not agreeing, which is stealing at the end.

the example of the box is kinda distorting the truth. see if someone sells you a box with two drawers, and says "i'm locking the second drawer but you can have the first" and if YOU agree to buying it just like that, then you'd be 1) lieing on your contract with the dealer, which is a sin, and 2) you're stealing the contents of the second drawer by using anything that's in there or even just using the drawer itself.

the main problem i see is the individual agreeing to abide by the contract and then going against his agreement. now the shari'ah tells us NOT to follow any law which goes against the shari'ah, but the shari'ah tells us "do not steal", "do not lie", "do not break agreements".

honestly it all just seems like a gray area to me. and we all know what's said about the gray area: avoid it since there's no certainty.

but again that's just my opinion (and I keep mentioning that for a reason, so everyone please don't get irratated :) ).

[.: Rashid :.]

see that's just it. first thing is we know it was not bought to begin with because crackers don't buy it, they theif that joint in the first place. second, they did not agree to any contracts because they already had the intention to break the contract in which case the seller did not actually sell it to them.

in islam, it does say to abide by the laws whether kuffar or not, aslong as it doesn't conflict with shari'ah. and by we muslims making the decision to stay in kuffar land, we must also accept their laws which don't conflict with islam. now the shari'ah also says "do not steal". so what the first person's method of obtaining the product is insignificant since when you're installing the product, your AGREEING to the license. If you don't agree, then you don't install it (the installer just exits and you don't get the program). so now you agree to the license, but you have the intention of not agreeing, which is stealing at the end.

the example of the box is kinda distorting the truth. see if someone sells you a box with two drawers, and says "i'm locking the second drawer but you can have the first" and if YOU agree to buying it just like that, then you'd be 1) lieing on your contract with the dealer, which is a sin, and 2) you're stealing the contents of the second drawer by using anything that's in there or even just using the drawer itself.

the main problem i see is the individual agreeing to abide by the contract and then going against his agreement. now the shari'ah tells us NOT to follow any law which goes against the shari'ah, but the shari'ah tells us "do not steal", "do not lie", "do not break agreements".

honestly it all just seems like a gray area to me. and we all know what's said about the gray area: avoid it since there's no certainty.

but again that's just my opinion (and I keep mentioning that for a reason, so everyone please don't get irratated :) ).

lol akhi I need to study man so tryna keep these responses short insha'Allah

Akhi, where did you get the "abide by kuffar laws as long as it isn't against shariah" thing from? Its oft quoted but never referenced.

But anyway, shari'ah forbids a contract which limits you to "licences". Like I said, if you buy a CD, then you own the CD, not just an installation. So assuming someone buys it legitimately, and shares it over the internet, it is perfectly halaal, you agree, right?

The issue you're raising, as I understand it, is if they do not obtain it by methods which are according to shariah, for example if they steal it. I would agree in that case; if someone goes into a shop, picks up a CD/box, and walks out then shares it, that would be haram.

As for agreeing during an installation: as I understand it, the shariah does not permit a contract to forbid you from residstributing, so even if you "agree", you're not sinning when you break the condition because the condition isn't permitted in Islam in the first place.

However legitimate conditions, such as using part a) but not part b), are binding afaik, and so breaking them would be sinning. I think you kinda misunderstood the drawer analogy...its saying if there is a contract, its haram, but if there isn't, then it is not haram.

What if you download something but don't use the self-extracting installer to install it, therefore, you don't need to agree to something?

Plus, you also have to consider if click-agreements have any substance in shariah...I think thats a big issue here, and I don't know. I would imagine they are though...

Its been a long time since I downloaded warez, but iirc, I think i used to just download an installer for windows, which was the complete cracked thing, so the crack had already been applied and there was no agreement on my end.

But anyhow, I think we've reached an agreement even though we don't realise, and thats that: pirating is halaal, so long as you don't agree to a contract, with legitimate shariah conditions, which forbids you from doing so.

I don't pirate software, I do pirate films though, and there's no shariah contract or agreement process with films, so I see absolutely no moral issue with it.

Wa Allahu 'Alam

No worries, not getting irritated :) (am getting anxious about my poor exam performance though :()

-Rashid

[aboosait]

lol akhi I need to study man so tryna keep these responses short insha'Allah............................No worries, not getting irritated :) (am getting anxious about my poor exam performance though :()

-Rashid

Recently I saw at an Islamic bookstall some CD's containing lectures and Fatawa by Scholars on which was the following warning:

'This CD is for sale. Plase do not copy'

Your comments please.

[belal1]

But anyhow, I think we've reached an agreement even though we don't realise, and thats that: pirating is halaal, so long as you don't agree to a contract, with legitimate shariah conditions, which forbids you from doing so.

I don't pirate software, I do pirate films though, and there's no shariah contract or agreement process with films, so I see absolutely no moral issue with it.

Wa Allahu 'Alam

No worries, not getting irritated :) (am getting anxious about my poor exam performance though :()

-Rashid

yeah, the main issue for me is the agreement contract and the way it was originally obtained. but whatever, i don't pirate software so it's cool.

besides, alot of the free software works so amazingly well, there's really not much use for pirating these days (for me).

best of luck with the studies though =]

[.: Rashid :.]

Recently I saw at an Islamic bookstall some CD's containing lectures and Fatawa by Scholars on which was the following warning:

'This CD is for sale. Plase do not copy'

Your comments please.

While I respect the seller's right to make money, the knowledge on that CD is not exclusively owned by them or the scholar, and it is beneficial to distribute those lectures to more people for their benefit. The seller and the scholar would receive reward in the akhirah, in fact, for every extra person who benefits from the knowledge, so they don't lose out.

yeah, the main issue for me is the agreement contract and the way it was originally obtained. but whatever, i don't pirate software so it's cool.

besides, alot of the free software works so amazingly well, there's really not much use for pirating these days (for me).

best of luck with the studies though =]

Yep thats what I was saying...the only issues are the agreement and hows its obtained.

Same, like I said, I don't pirate software, because the FOSS equivalents are as good if not better (with a few exceptions, but i haven't obtained pirated copies of them yet...) but I do pirate films, and they are almost invariably obtained legally by purchasing, and then ripped and shared online, and there's no agreement process, so its no doubt for me :) (the only doubt would be the content of the movies actually...)

Jazakallah :)

-Rashid

[Eemaan]

not another abu musab :smack:

*head implodes*

[.: Rashid :.]

lol yeah there's already 3 of them

Only one is active now though...

-Rashid

[Suliman]

Arrrrrrr, I be a pirate ya scurvy lass....

Anyway, as someone told me recently, pirates don't steal. They share.

...and they sail on a different kind of torrent now days :P

[belal1]

Arrrrrrr, I be a pirate ya scurvy lass....

Anyway, as someone told me recently, pirates don't steal. They share.

...and they sail on a different kind of torrent now days :P

yeah....lots of virii...

so thoughtful of them :inlove:

[.: Rashid :.]

Arrrrrrr, I be a pirate ya scurvy lass....

Anyway, as someone told me recently, pirates don't steal. They share.

...and they sail on a different kind of torrent now days :P

lol :D

-Rashid

[Suliman]

yeah....lots of virii...

so thoughtful of them :inlove:

I didn't say they were clean :o