You witness a Muslim murder a kaffir, what do you do?

[UnoDosTres]

This is based off of these threads.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123282
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123284

You're walking down the street (again). You witness a Muslim murder a non-Muslim. Let's assume that you didn't have a chance to stop it.

What do you do?

[Le Croyant]

I m assuming u r talking abt some random guy on the street & not battelfield.

[UnoDosTres]

I m assuming u r talking abt some random guy on the street & not battelfield.

Of course!

Ps. The other thread was about crime prevention. This one is purely after-the-fact.

[AbuMusaab]

This is a very thought provoking thread. I am still thinking about what I would do.

I do not think I would automatically report it. It would depend on the who the Muslim and who the kaffir was.

I would try to talk to the Muslim and ask him what happened, and make a decision from there.

[Al-Irhaab]

scenario is too vague... who was the killer.... who was the killed.... why did the killing take place... etc etc.... needless to say killing someone for no reason is one of the worst acts regardless of whether the victim is muslim or kaafir and regardless of whether the murderer is muslim or kaafir...

[alld]

scenario is too vague... who was the killer.... who was the killed.... why did the killing take place... etc etc.... needless to say killing someone for no reason is one of the worst acts regardless of whether the victim is muslim or kaafir and regardless of whether the murderer is muslim or kaafir...

very sensible reply .

[UnoDosTres]

scenario is too vague... who was the killer.... who was the killed.... why did the killing take place... etc etc.... needless to say killing someone for no reason is one of the worst acts regardless of whether the victim is muslim or kaafir and regardless of whether the murderer is muslim or kaafir...

For the sake of argument, assume it's completely random people. You're pretty sure the assailant is Muslim because of his dress.

You have no clue who the victim is but you think he/she is probably not a Muslim.

[alld]

For the sake of argument, assume it's completely random people. You're pretty sure the assailant is Muslim because of his dress.

the assailant might well dress up like a muslim like the killer of mahatma gandhi who got circumcised though he wasn't muslim . there are countless iffs and butts in such polls .

[cyber_abdullah]

This is based off of these threads.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123282
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123284

You're walking down the street (again). You witness a Muslim murder a non-Muslim. Let's assume that you didn't have a chance to stop it.

What do you do?

How would we know the murderer is a Muslim? Btw, I voted for reporting the guy to the police. I'm sorry I did not give the answer you were looking for so you can copy+Paste the answer to non-Muslim forums and say to other non-Muslims "hey! This Muslim won't help a kaffir in danger".

sick, just sick

[UnoDosTres]

I'm sorry I did not give the answer you were looking for so you can copy+Paste the answer to non-Muslim forums and say to other non-Muslims "hey! This Muslim won't help a kaffir in danger".

Actually, we already had that discussion.

Most Muslims that voted in the poll would help a kaffir in danger. One of the big reasons was that they were actually helping the Muslim.

I believe the verse is regarding what to do if a Muslim is the oppressor. The result is to help them by stopping them.

It's a different situation. If you look in the above threads, you'll see posts that discuss Muslims not working with police.

[alld]

Muslim will not murder a kaffir unless it is for reasons of fitnah
If a namesake muslims is trying to murder a kaafir for his selfish motive then we should at least try to stop with our hands and if not at least with our tongue andif even not that at least feel that he is doing wrong .
If we can help avert the murder it will save muslim from a sin and help himin akhirah and can open the path of Islaam to the kuffar .

[funk999]

Do what the British do best, turn a blind eye, the oppression aided by Americans



i deserve a :torture:

[Joha]

What a joke - re: anybody even hesitating to decide.

He's a criminal - report him, and if you have a gun and are able to stop him and defend the person he's trying to murder, shoot him if need be.

A Muslim still has to abide by the laws of the land he's living in.

Islamic Law doesn't allow a Muslim to take the law into his own hands in an Islamic state, how could it allow him to do that when he is a guest in somebody else's?

[Islamiyyah]

I put other becasue unless he had a good reason too, why report him?


Allahu Allam

[dhakiyya]

If the person being murdered was Tony Blair I'd be tempted to join in lol :p

If it was an innocent person that was being attacked in the street, I'd dial 999 and I don't think I'd notice whether the attacker was Muslim or not. Attacking innocent people in the streets is not Islamic behaviour. In fact the very idea of someone in noticably Islamic attire doing such a thing is so ubsurd its laughable. (because those who practice Islam properly just don't do this kind of thing)

If there was some other story behind it, like the person being attacked was a child molester who molested the attackers kid, perhaps he should have targetted the evil monster in a more private way? You do it in the highstreet on a saturday afternoon of course you'll get reported....

[Ruprecht]

Murder, or even the credible threat of murder, justifies the use of force. Up to and including lethal force...

Anything more precise than that requires a more precise scenario.

[stephenoskie]

muslim or not, the person who died deserves to RIP,
and the murderer needs to be punished even tho Allah will punish them,
i will also get punished for letting the person roam free.

[UnoDosTres]

muslim or not, the person who died deserves to RIP,
and the murderer needs to be punished even tho Allah will punish them,
i will also get punished for letting the person roam free.

In addition, what if that person murdered someone else afterwards?

Just something to think about.

[adamaaa]

I don't know what I would do really... In my case, my location.

How would the Police treat a man who has murdered who is also a Muslim? A bit worse than any old murderer I think, or maybe as a terrorist. Was the Muslim provoked? Does the dead man look like NF? How will the Muslim be treated in prison differently to others? God is just, the British establishment and it's laws are not, the criminal justice system is institutionally racist and Islamophobic.

I'm thinking, tell the brother you saw what he did and......
argh I don't know.
Muslims should not murder in the first place!! :(

[umar7]

this is an insulting and stupid poll. i don't know why you aren't banned for this.

[stephenoskie]

In addition, what if that person murdered someone else afterwards?

Just something to think about.

what do you mean ?

how can some one who is already dead kill some one eles?
and how can the murderer kill some one eles if they are in prison ?
(but maybe they could kill in prison, but its not worth it i say)

i dont think u understood my answer, maybe it's some thing for YOU to
think about :)

[UnoDosTres]

what do you mean ?

how can some one who is already dead kill some one eles?
and how can the murderer kill some one eles if they are in prison ?
(but maybe they could kill in prison, but its not worth it i say)

i dont think u understood my answer, maybe it's some thing for YOU to
think about :)


Actually, some people here would hesitate on sending a Muslim to go to jail for murdering a kaffir. Well, what happens if that same Muslim murders again?

Ps. I wasn't disagreeing with your previous post. I was just adding to it.

[cyber_abdullah]

Actually, some people here would hesitate on sending a Muslim to go to jail for murdering a kaffir. Well, what happens if that same Muslim murders again?

Ps. I wasn't disagreeing with your previous post. I was just adding to it.

Proof? Or did you just pull out that "fact" from your backside. Provide proof or be condemned as a scurrilous liar (which your probably are anyway).

Btw, the poll you yourself created states a fact contrary to your lies.

[bintadam]

muslim or kaffir murder is murder... and murder is punishable in islam so u kno i wud report it

[.: Rashid :.]

scenario is too vague... who was the killer.... who was the killed.... why did the killing take place... etc etc.... needless to say killing someone for no reason is one of the worst acts regardless of whether the victim is muslim or kaafir and regardless of whether the murderer is muslim or kaafir...

I'm with irhaab...

Actually, some people here would hesitate on sending a Muslim to go to jail for murdering a kaffir. Well, what happens if that same Muslim murders again?

Ps. I wasn't disagreeing with your previous post. I was just adding to it.

Where do you keep getting ideas like that from?? Seriously...even the poll you created says the opposite :S

-Rashid

[zaki]

Can someone please tell me WHY are we doing theses type of questions? what are the reasons for thinking of theses questions in the first place?
Can we stop asking theses stupid questions.

[stephenoskie]

Actually, some people here would hesitate on sending a Muslim to go to jail for murdering a kaffir. Well, what happens if that same Muslim murders again?

Ps. I wasn't disagreeing with your previous post. I was just adding to it.

oh sorry then i must of ,isunserstood then im sowi :)

erm yeah i agree with you, you know i know Allah is the worst punishment but then why punish some one eles by making them lose their life but this eveil being :S

[UnoDosTres]

Proof? Or did you just pull out that "fact" from your backside. Provide proof or be condemned as a scurrilous liar (which your probably are anyway).

Btw, the poll you yourself created states a fact contrary to your lies.

Oh know, someone I don't know is going to call me a liar. Boo hoo.

Now as far answering your question, here are two people who seem undecided:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1842009&postcount=14
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1844212&postcount=19

There have also been posts that have said a Muslim should not be jailed/executed for murdering a kaffir. Blood money, yes, but nothing more. I tried looking them up via the search function but keep getting a white screen.

"A Muslim is the one who his Muslim brother is secure from his hand and his tongue."

[UnoDosTres]

Can someone please tell me WHY are we doing theses type of questions? what are the reasons for thinking of theses questions in the first place?
Can we stop asking theses stupid questions.

Well, because some people are undecided on it. If a person doesn't know what they would do in a possible (albeit improbable) real-world scenario, it's probably discussion worthy.

[cyber_abdullah]

Oh know, someone I don't know is going to call me a liar. Boo hoo.

Now as far answering your question, here are two people who seem undecided:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1842009&postcount=14
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1844212&postcount=19 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1844212&postcount=19)

There have also been posts that have said a Muslim should not be jailed/executed for murdering a kaffir.

Proof, please. And while you are at it, provide the context.


From the posts you have cited:

Was the Muslim provoked?

Muslims should not murder in the first place!!

No one is "hesitating", he is simply quering about the context, because depending on the context, killing someone can be called murder, manslaughter or self-defence.

[.: Rashid :.]

Oh know, someone I don't know is going to call me a liar. Boo hoo.

Now as far answering your question, here are two people who seem undecided:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1842009&postcount=14
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1844212&postcount=19

There have also been posts that have said a Muslim should not be jailed/executed for murdering a kaffir. Blood money, yes, but nothing more. I tried looking them up via the search function but keep getting a white screen.

"A Muslim is the one who his Muslim brother is secure from his hand and his tongue."

Niether of those posts are even close to what you claim or make it out to be...see cyber-abdullah's response also.

Don't take offence but I'm sure you can understand our concern and suspicion...I can just see a post on littlegreenfootballs or gatesofvienna with a nice link to a post or vote on this poll :rolleyes:

-Rashid

[UnoDosTres]

Niether of those posts are even close to what you claim or make it out to be...see cyber-abdullah's response also.

Don't take offence but I'm sure you can understand our concern and suspicion...I can just see a post on littlegreenfootballs or gatesofvienna with a nice link to a post or vote on this poll :rolleyes:

-Rashid

You sure you don't want me to take offence? J/k

Honestly, this thread was inspired by the lack of cooperation some people talk about when law enforcement is involved.

Given the results of the poll, it looks like people would cooperate if they actually knew (as opposed to just thinking) something.

Ps. I've been to littlegreenfootballs years ago but can't remember anything about it. What is gatesofvienna? Sounds like a tourist forum!

[zaki]

Well, because some people are undecided on it. If a person doesn't know what they would do in a possible (albeit improbable) real-world scenario, it's probably discussion worthy.

No matter if you talk about it or not, it will always be different to what you talk about. You dunno if that Muslim will attack you and try to kill you too, there are so many different ways that we could all think of, but what we think of may not even happen. Its like if the question was what would you do if someone was going to mug you and take your stuff, in your head you would try and be the hero and fight him off etc, in real life, you wouldnt expect this person to mug you, but it happens, you will be shocked and have worrying moments, you wont know whether he will just take your stuff and go or do something else.

You cant prepare for theses things, sadly in the world today they happen, even if you never expect it to happen, like myself, stuff can happen.

[.: Rashid :.]

You sure you don't want me to take offence? J/k

Honestly, this thread was inspired by the lack of cooperation some people talk about when law enforcement is involved.

Given the results of the poll, it looks like people would cooperate if they actually knew (as opposed to just thinking) something.

Ps. I've been to littlegreenfootballs years ago but can't remember anything about it. What is gatesofvienna? Sounds like a tourist forum!

Don't be surprised about lack of co operation anyhow... I mean, you get that from the kuffar (youth) as much as Muslims so...although maybe it depends on where you are etc In london, or at least the part of london I live in, most of the people in my age group and slightly above would be as uncooperative with law enforcement as any Muslims you've come across here.

Gates of Vienna, like LGF, is another fiercely anti-Islamic blog site thing (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/)

-Rashid

[AbuMubarak]

are muslims supposed to recognize the kuffar police as an authority over muslims?

[perfectpearl]

Defiantly report it. Its a murder!

are muslims supposed to recognize the kuffar police as an authority over muslims?

If we are living in their country we must abide by their law. so Yes they are the authority.

[AbuMubarak]

its whose country?

did moses turn himself in?

give me daleel

[adamaaa]

I was young and stupid when I first replied to this topic...
Here's my answer now:

It does not matter who murders who.
Report it to the authorities, you're a witness.
In these days of technology, the murderer is likely to get caught anyway, by reporting it, you could save a lot of time and money that can save other people's lives.

This poll is stupid, it makes us think too deeply about something that we are unlikely to witness. Thinking too hard about unnecesary things is not good, wrong questions are extremely inviting to wrong answers.

[muhammed_1428]

are muslims supposed to recognize the kuffar police as an authority over muslims?

well unfortunately - yes - if they're living in the same land those kuffar police are hired to protect...

What? Can Muslims go around breaking laws of a certain land and not expect to be prosecuted?

And in any case - are all police suddenly kufaar?

Are there no Muslim police officers? Perhaps those that solve the domestic issues - probably half of which are over some 'izzat' or marriage related issue - in which an officer who doesnt speak the language probably has no chance of sorting the situation out and leaving it be?

If you see someone murder someone else - that person needs to be punished

[adamaaa]

When living in a non-Islamic state (not one exists on this earth), you should recognise its laws and abide by them.
Just as the Prophet [swt] and the Muslims did in Abysinnia and Medina.

If the laws prevent you from being Muslim, move out.
If you are being attacked, defend yourself.

[AbuMubarak]

no daleel, eh?

[muhammed_1428]

no daleel, eh?

nope, sorry.

Actually wait

Wouldn't it depend on circumstance?

What if you yourself would get arrested and be taken away form the family that you should be taking care of, as a wajib? And the murderer is definitely worthy of being given a few yrs regardless if he/she was Muslim.

P.S. could you please post daleel for the other three options if possible?

[adamaaa]

Of course it depends on circumstance... that's why this poll is stupid!
Its hypothetical, unnecessary, we're racking our brains about it and coming out with silly answers.
We have more important things to worry about!

[muhammed_1428]

Of course it depends on circumstance... that's why this poll is stupid!
Its hypothetical, unnecessary, we're racking our brains about it and coming out with silly answers.
We have more important things to worry about!

indeed, in fact no offence ummah.com but the polls here are getting worse and worse

e.g. anti-islam or feminist magazine?? You being serious?

[Pippin1376]

are muslims supposed to recognize the kuffar police as an authority over muslims?

What would you suggest, Brother? What would you do if you saw a Muslim kill a kuffar?

[adamaaa]

[QUOTE]are muslims supposed to recognize the kuffar police as an authority over muslims?[QUOTE]

It is not even a question of whether the police are muslim or non muslim institutionally or in terms of membership.
Any state you live in that is not Islamic, you must recognise their police as the enforcers of the law of that country which you are choosing to live in. With choice comes responsibility, and your responsibility in any state is to follow their law unless it is completely unreasonable.
If there was an Islamic state, we would expect all citizens, migrants and visitors to follow our laws. We cannot have double standards because it is un-Islamic.

Come on guys! Use your brain!

[AbuMubarak]

i dont want to use my brain

i want to go by what Allah and His Messenger have said

i may be wrong if i use my brain

but if i go by what Allah and His Messenger said, I will not go astray

so again, for the fourth time, i would like some daleel that supports turning over a muslim to a kafir for kafir-justice?

an ayat? a hadith? scholarly opinion? something...........lemme clarify that, scholarly opinion which clearly refers to Quran and Sunnah, because last i checked, saudi salafi sheikhs have stated it is ok to turn muslims in to the kuffar

[-Shamil-]

depends who got killed - if it was someone like Nick Griffin of the BNP then i didnt see nuffin, officer :up:

[perfectpearl]

its whose country?

did moses turn himself in?

give me daleel

Moses made an honest mistake. He did not murder by purpose. He just didnt know how strong he was.

Daleel by Sheik Uthameen:

The Shaikh stated, during a tele-link, on the 28th July 2000:

...Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, from those between you and whom there is and agreement (of protection) . For the land which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers.

And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said : "Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."

Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people : [I]those who say : 'Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us [i.e. to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing].' For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah's Religion, and a lie in Islamic societies.

So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.

[Saudi Prince]

so again, for the fourth time, i would like some daleel that supports turning over a muslim to a kafir for kafir-justice?

an ayat? a hadith? scholarly opinion? something...........lemme clarify that, scholarly opinion which clearly refers to Quran and Sunnah, because last i checked, saudi salafi sheikhs have stated it is ok to turn muslims in to the kuffar

What do you mean by turning over a muslim to a kafir for kafir-justice? From a Muslim country to a kafer country or inside a kafer country?

If it is inside the country then are you supposed to follow this verse

"Fulfill the covenant of Allah, when you make a covenant and do not break your oaths after they have been confirmed (by swearing in His Name) for you make Allah your surety. Allah has knowledge of what you do"


And what do you mean by the Saudi salafi shaiks? Do we have salafi and non-salafi in Saudi? And by the way are you a salafi? Do you listen to any Saudi shaikh?

[AbuMubarak]

Moses made an honest mistake. He did not murder by purpose. He just didnt know how strong he was.

Daleel by Sheik Uthameen:

The Shaikh stated, during a tele-link, on the 28th July 2000:

...Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, from those between you and whom there is and agreement (of protection) . For the land which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers.

And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said : "Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise."

Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people : [I]those who say : 'Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us [i.e. to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing].' For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah's Religion, and a lie in Islamic societies.

So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.getting quite good pearl at twisting hadiths, similar to the saudi sheikhs, to make sure that muslims get the raw end of the stick and the kuffar get protected

lemme give you a little bit of story about those hadiths

firstly, it is whom the MUSLIM governments have had a treaty with, ie, the various tribes around makkah and it was wrong for any muslim to violate those agreements that the leadership had made

secondly i have absolutely no agreement with anyone regarding anyone, there was no sit down where we discussed give and take on any issue, last i checked with these people, they decided i was 3/5 of a person, then they decided to make me a citizen, i have no say in any of what they do, other than some useless voting ticket

i did not enter this country under some guise of respecting any of their laws, shucks, they dont even respect their own laws, not one treaty they made has ever been honored

so this is not an issue of me being treacherous under my reneging on some agreement, implied or otherwise

now, that was my response to your weak twisted daleel

now show me how when the Prophet said that a muslim does not turn a muslim over to a kafir, how does your stance abrogate a very clear instruction from the Prophet?

[AbuMubarak]

so if i mistakenly kill a kafir, you wont call the cops?

[perfectpearl]

getting quite good pearl at twisting hadiths, similar to the saudi sheikhs, to make sure that muslims get the raw end of the stick and the kuffar get protected

lemme give you a little bit of story about those hadiths

firstly, it is whom the MUSLIM governments have had a treaty with, ie, the various tribes around makkah and it was wrong for any muslim to violate those agreements that the leadership had made

secondly i have absolutely no agreement with anyone regarding anyone, there was no sit down where we discussed give and take on any issue, last i checked with these people, they decided i was 3/5 of a person, then they decided to make me a citizen, i have no say in any of what they do, other than some useless voting ticket

i did not enter this country under some guise of respecting any of their laws, shucks, they dont even respect their own laws, not one treaty they made has ever been honored

so this is not an issue of me being treacherous under my reneging on some agreement, implied or otherwise

now, that was my response to your weak twisted daleel

now show me how when the Prophet said that a muslim does not turn a muslim over to a kafir, how does your stance abrogate a very clear instruction from the Prophet?

Brother, I dont know if anyone has said this to you, but you really do need to learn how to talk to people softly. Otherwise anything you said like i was reading this post very upset wise. I am sure you know that the Prophet has told people to talk in a good manner and that their heart would be open to what you are saying.

I didnt write what i have... it was for a Scholar and its not twisted in any way! I see everything following.

The citizenship is like an oath that you will abide by their law. They have laws; follow them. Plus if you dont like the country's law dont live in it. Its as simple as that. No to need to rebel. Just leave. I am very tired too look for ahadith and proofs from the Quran but inshaa Allah I will post them later on.

so if i mistakenly kill a kafir, you wont call the cops?

No comment -
you are not a Prophet.

[AbuMubarak]

nor was moses when he killed the man

and i have not spoken harsh to you

it would be much worse and against the words of the Prophet for you to turn a muslim in to a kafir
but you dont seem to have a problem with that, but my words seem to bother you

priorities, priorities

[AbuMubarak]

Come on guys! Use your brain!so far, this has been the best daleel given yet

[Saudi Prince]

Who are the Saudi salafi shaiks? Give some names please.

If you enter Britain, do you think your visa is like a covenant between you and the UK Government or not?

If yes, do you believe in the verse I quoted you?

[Pippin1376]

so if i mistakenly kill a kafir, you wont call the cops?

Brother, if you mistakenly killed a Kafir and I know about it then I would be wondering why you are calling Canada and telling me about your killings. Then I would be freaked out because you would make me your accomplice, which would then cause me to hide.

[cyber_abdullah]

This is a very thought provoking thread.

More like an ignorant and condescending thread.

[muhammed_1428]

Killing someone by mistake is not murder, it is manslaughter. Murder is where you have the intention to kill someone, and succeed in doing so.