View Full Version : The Beard
Tic~Tac-Toe
17-08-07, 12:07 AM
There will be those who blindly accept them no matter if the Prophet himself came to them and said that Hadith is false and there are others who will blindly reject them no matter if the Prophet himself came and told them it's true.
your post makes so much sense, but i dont know if your misleading or guiding me
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 12:19 AM
your post makes so much sense, but i dont know if your misleading or guiding me
Don't take your guidance from mere mortals such as myself or any of the others here, pick up a copy of the Quran and read it. It's the best place to start!
Be guided by the Immortal One.
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 09:17 AM
My take on Hadith is that we can't be 100% sure on their authenticity due to the nature of their transmission.
Therefore they are useful in telling us a version of the history of that period but they shouldn't be used to create laws (especially as regards capital punishment).
There will be those who blindly accept them no matter if the Prophet himself came to them and said that Hadith is false and there are others who will blindly reject them no matter if the Prophet himself came and told them it's true.
As far as I'm concerned I don't believe we should take laws from them but no doubt there is some truth to be gleaned from them!
so is that the main issue? u have a problem with the transmission?
can you read this post of mine, and tell me what u think
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2073469&postcount=188
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 09:33 AM
You mentioned in one of your previous posts, about a court of law, and no doubt you also know the weight of anything that is mentioned orally, and also why upon arresting sumone the police mention, "anything you say, can and will be used...." I'm sure you know the rest.
You do realise that in a court of law witnesses speak/write what they saw/did directly, there is no isnad. So the above point is impermissible in relation to Hadith.
So your rejection based on the hadiths being orally transmitted is incorrect. Because these same people who transmitted orally passed on the Qur'an.
You're missing the main point here, the Quran was memorised word for word and the Sahbah began collecting and compiling the Quran during the caliphate of Abu Bakr.
On the other hand, the Sahih Hadith collections are the result of a generational verbal relay where people passed traditions on from one person to the next. These traditions were told and retold in the form of stories, reports or accounts. The wording changed each time it was retold as can be seen when there are several recorded Hadith on the same subject.
This is entirely different to the Quran, which was passed on verbatim and didn’t allow for the changing of verbs let alone the changing of nouns. Also many of the Sahabah and the Taibeen carried on telling these stories into old age. That meant that the versions of the stories that got through to us were usually the recollections of old men talking about their glorious youth or what they remembered of it.
I’m yet to hear a friend retell a joke/story the same way twice and the most interesting point about listening to friends retelling stories is that the stories always end up vastly embellished. Not because they mean to lie but because people naturally remember things differently to the way they happened!
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 09:43 AM
You do realise that in a court of law witnesses speak/write what they saw/did directly, there is no isnad. So the above point is impermissible in relation to Hadith.
the point made was rejection of something that is orally transmitted is invalid on the basis it is oral.
judge hears what the police officer heard the defendant say.
the judge has to decide on th reliabilty of the police officer..right?
a very simplistic model, but u get the point im sure.
You're missing the main point here, the Quran was memorised word for word and the Sahbah began collecting and compiling the Quran during the caliphate of Abu Bakr.
how many muslims were there at that time? how many copies of the Qur'an were made? for the majority oral transmission was still the main way.
On the other hand, the Sahih Hadith collections are the result of a generational verbal relay where people passed traditions on from one person to the next. These traditions were told and retold in the form of stories, reports or accounts. The wording changed each time it was retold as can be seen when there are several recorded Hadith on the same subject.
This is entirely different to the Quran, which was passed on verbatim and didn’t allow for the changing of verbs let alone the changing of nouns. Also many of the Sahabah and the Taibeen carried on telling these stories into old age. That meant that the versions of the stories that got through to us were usually the recollections of old men talking about their glorious youth or what they remembered of it.
I’m yet to hear a friend retell a joke/story the same way twice and the most interesting point about listening to friends retelling stories is that the stories always end up vastly embellished. Not because they mean to lie but because people naturally remember things differently to the way they happened!
you can accept the fact that the Qur'an could be memorised word for word, yet why not the hadith?
the sahabah as im sure u'll agree were extraordinary people, and a simple task of memorising word for word is not a problem.
and see what about mutawatir hadith? do u accept those?
Allah the Exalted says:
If you ask them they declare: "We were only talking idly and joking." Say: "Was it at Allâh , and His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?"
Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you because they were Mujrimûn (disbelievers, polytheists, sinners, criminals, etc.). [9:65,66]
I am not making mockery of Allahs word. nor his messenger. I am mocking Dajjal. And i have not become a disbeliever by doing that. I feel sorry for your kids.
All of you who say the beard is haram to shave mock Allah and his word
Let us analyse what haram means:
Definition 1 ) anything that is unlawful or forbidden according to the Qur'an
Definition 2 ) that which Allah and the Prophet have completely and specifically forbidden. Engaging in an act that is Haram (ie eating food like pork, drinking alcohol, having sex outside of marriage) would lead to punishment in the Next Life, and maybe even in this Life.
The claim that the beard is haram to shave does not fit the first definition as it is not even mentioned in the Quran. But i know many of you are not satisfied with that answer.
The bold claim that the beard is haram to shave neither does fit the second definition aswell as the claim is that the prophet said it in ahadith but hey its not mentioned in the quran at all.
Are you (those who claim shaving the beard is haraam) trying to say that the prophet remembered to make something haram when Allah forgot? I think all of you should really repent.
Haraam is a strong word and nothing can be made haram unless it is mentioned in the quran alone or with supporting hadith. Dont make hadith equal to Allahs word, its a big sin to do that.
I am not making mockery of Allahs word. nor his messenger. I am mocking Dajjal. And i have not become a disbeliever by doing that. I feel sorry for your kids.
the dajal is mentioned by Allahs messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam in many sahih hadiths.
may Allah ta ala guide, and protect my children from people like u amin.
the dajal is mentioned by Allahs messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam in many sahih hadiths.
may Allah ta ala guide, and protect my children from people like u amin.
May Allah guide my kids from people like you
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 10:49 AM
lone wolf,
u know what reading the last few posts of yours, we find
1)Blatant disrespect for the Sahabah
That meant that the versions of the stories that got through to us were usually the recollections of old men talking about their glorious youth or what they remembered of it.
you speak of them as "old men talking about their glorious youth"
whereas Allah speaks of them as;
9:100 The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well- pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.
la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
2)Your disrespect for the muhadditheen and the scholars, is sometimes beyond belief,
whereas Allah speaks about the ulama as the ones who truly fear Allah
35:28 And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
3) and your disrespect for hadiths and the sunnah is shocking,
Hadith are only 'accounts' that have survived over a century of chineese whispers
Definitions of chinese whispers:
* The telephone game, also known as Chinese whispers and whisper down the lane, is a game often played by children at parties or in the playground in which a phrase or sentence is passed on from one player to another, but is subtly altered in transit.
My take on Hadith is that we can't be 100% sure on their authenticity due to the nature of their transmission.
Therefore they are useful in telling us a version of the history of that period but they shouldn't be used to create laws (especially as regards capital punishment).
la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
Allah tells us;
“Whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever he forbids you abstain from it.”
And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44]
subhan'allah,
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Verily I was given the Qur’an and something else like it. It is feared that a man will sit fully satiated on his sofa and say: ‘You only have to abide by the Qur’an. Whatever you find lawful, take it as lawful, and whatever you find unlawful take it as unlawful’. Nay! It is unlawful for you to eat the flesh of donkeys and carnivores possessing fangs. If you find something that belongs to someone who lives under (peace) treaty with Muslims, do not take it unless it is given up by its owner…” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd]
Allahu Akbar,
Lone Wolf, I ask you do one thing, tonight wake up in the middle of the night, contemplate on some of things you have said, understand why you cannot find a single notable person in history who is upon ur way. and stand before Allah, and pray and ask him for guidance.
i also pray to Allah that He guides you,
i have really nothing more to say to you.
May Allah protect us all from falsehood -ameen
There's no point in sharing knowledge?
i have no problems with sharing knowledge... the issue is will you accept it? my guess is probably not because seem to have already made up your mind in what you believe and will make excuses to retain that belief rather than accept you're wrong despite ample proof.
however, i'm hoping i'm wrong so here are the ahadith where the Prophet :saw: permitted the writting of ahadith:
1. One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet said: "Seek help from your right hand," and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi' Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi' ibn Khadij, the famous companion of the Holy Prophet says, "I said to the Holy Prophet [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?" He replied: You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
3. Sayyiduna Anas reports that the Holy Prophet has said: Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi'-ul-Bayân]
4. Sayyiduna Abu Râfi' sought permission from the Holy Prophet to write ahâdîth. The Holy Prophet () permitted him to do so. [Jâmi' Tirmidhi]
It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi' were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ?Abbâs says:
I saw some small wooden boards with ?Abdullâh Ibn ?Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet which he acquired from Abu Râfi'. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa'd]
5. ?Abdullâh ibn ?Amr ibn al-?Âs reports that the Holy Prophet said to him: "Preserve knowledge." He asked, "and how should it be preserved?" The Holy Prophet replied, "by writing it." [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi'-ul-Bayân]
Your analysis is based on a lot of emotion..
lone wolf,
u know what reading the last few posts of yours, we find
1)Blatant disrespect for the Sahabah
you speak of them as "old men talking about their glorious youth"
whereas Allah speaks of them as;
9:100 The vanguard (of Islam)- the first of those who forsook (their homes) and of those who gave them aid, and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds,- well- pleased is Allah with them, as are they with Him: for them hath He prepared gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever: that is the supreme felicity.
la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
Firstly Allah refers to the sahabah (the very firsts ones).You need to note that All sahabahs made a lot of mistakes. There are a lot of hadiths on that. You must also note that there were sahabas of the prophet at a later stage who were also hypocrites, neverthe less they were sahabis. Also there were companions fo the prophet who didnt even see the prophet and didnt spend much time with him.
In the prophets time there was an open culture where you could criticise the companions themselves if they had done something wrong. They themselves allowed this culture so dont go against their will.
2)Your disrespect for the muhadditheen and the scholars, is sometimes beyond belief,
whereas Allah speaks about the ulama as the ones who truly fear Allah
35:28 And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
That quote of the quran does not refer to ulema. It refers to anyone. So i dont see the point your making. I dont see a verse that says amongst you shall be a few who will have more knowledge than you .. make sure you dont question them. pfft. Dont twist the word of Allah
3) and your disrespect for hadiths and the sunnah is shocking,
Definitions of chinese whispers:
* The telephone game, also known as Chinese whispers and whisper down the lane, is a game often played by children at parties or in the playground in which a phrase or sentence is passed on from one player to another, but is subtly altered in transit.
la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah
Allah tells us;
“Whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever he forbids you abstain from it.”
And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44]
subhan'allah,
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Verily I was given the Qur’an and something else like it. It is feared that a man will sit fully satiated on his sofa and say: ‘You only have to abide by the Qur’an. Whatever you find lawful, take it as lawful, and whatever you find unlawful take it as unlawful’. Nay! It is unlawful for you to eat the flesh of donkeys and carnivores possessing fangs. If you find something that belongs to someone who lives under (peace) treaty with Muslims, do not take it unless it is given up by its owner…” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd]
You must remember that hadith is not the actual words of the prophet. Its the word of Sahih Bukhari, or Muslim or in your last quote Sunan Abi Dawud. It is their report that they HEARD the prophet say this and that. That is very important for you to understand.
That does not mean that the hadith is all together void. NO hadith plays an important part as it shows us a bit of background and history to understand things better. But not full reliance should be placed on it.
Please note further that the verse that you refer to where Allah says listen to the prophet, Allah refers to the quran as the verses of the quran were UTTERED by the prophet through revelation. Also it is very important to note that the prophet made sure that the revelations were recorded and NOTHING else...
Allahu Akbar,
Lone Wolf, I ask you do one thing, tonight wake up in the middle of the night, contemplate on some of things you have said, understand why you cannot find a single notable person in history who is upon ur way. and stand before Allah, and pray and ask him for guidance.
i also pray to Allah that He guides you,
i have really nothing more to say to you.
May Allah protect us all from falsehood -ameenThats a matter of opinion
All of you who say the beard is haram to shave mock Allah and his word
Let us analyse what haram means:
Definition 1 ) anything that is unlawful or forbidden according to the Qur'an
Definition 2 ) that which Allah and the Prophet have completely and specifically forbidden. Engaging in an act that is Haram (ie eating food like pork, drinking alcohol, having sex outside of marriage) would lead to punishment in the Next Life, and maybe even in this Life.
The claim that the beard is haram to shave does not fit the first definition as it is not even mentioned in the Quran. But i know many of you are not satisfied with that answer.
The bold claim that the beard is haram to shave neither does fit the second definition aswell as the claim is that the prophet said it in ahadith but hey its not mentioned in the quran at all.
Are you (those who claim shaving the beard is haraam) trying to say that the prophet remembered to make something haram when Allah forgot? I think all of you should really repent.
Haraam is a strong word and nothing can be made haram unless it is mentioned in the quran alone or with supporting hadith. Dont make hadith equal to Allahs word, its a big sin to do that.
Actually no, all four Imams (ra) agreed that to shave one's beard is haram.
Taken from http://www.islam.tc/beard/beard.html
The Beard according to the Great Imams of Jurisprudence
Hanafi
Imam Muhammed (R.A.) writes in his book "Kitabul Aathaar" where he relates from Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A.) who relates from Hadhrat Haytham (R.A.) who relates from Ibn Umar (R.A.) that he (Ibn Umar) used to hold his beard in his hand and cut off which was longer. Imam Muhammed (R.A.) says that this is what we follow and this was the decision of Imam Abu Hanifa. Therefore, according to Hanafies, to shorten the beard less than a FIST LENGTH is HARAAM and on this is IJMA (consensus of opinion).
Shafi'i
Imam Shafi (R.A.) in his Kitabul Umm states, "To shave the beard is HARAAM." (Shari Minhaj dar Shara Fasl Aqueeqa).
Maaliki
Shekh Ahmad Nafarawi Maliki in the commentary of Imam Abu Zayed's booklet states, "to shave the beard is without doubt haraam according to all Imams." It is also mention in "Tamheed" which is a commentary of "Muatta" (Sunnan Imam Malik (R.A.)) that to shave the beard is HARAAM and among males the only ones to resort to this practice (of shaving) are the HERMAPHRODITES (persons who possess both male and female features and characteristics).
Hanbali
The Hanbalies in the famous Al-Khanie'a Hanbali Fatawa Kitab state that "to grow the beard is essential and to shave it is HARAAM." Also in the Hanbali Mathab books "Sharahul Muntahaa" and "Sharr Manzoomatul Aadaab", it is stated "The most accepted view is that it is HARAAM (prohibited to shave the beard)."
Also note, according to scholars of Islam: "To shave off the beard is unlawful (haraam) and one who shaves his beard is legally speaking an unrighteous fellow (FASIQ); hence, it is NOT PERMISSIBLE to appoint such a man as an Imam. To say Taraweeh behind such an Imam is MAKRUH-E-TAHRIMI (near prohibition)" (Shami Vol.1, p.523)
The Durre-Mukhtar states: "No one has called it permissible to trim it (the beard) less than FIST-LENGTH as is being done by some westernized Muslims and hermaphrodites." (Vol. 2, p. 155). Also, "It is forbidden (haraam) for a man to cut off another's beard." (Vol. 5, p. 359).
So, not only do the four Imams (ra) say shaving one's beard is haram, but it's the consensus (ijma') of Islamic scholars, i.e. there's no difference of opinion on it.
What amazes me is those brothers without beards talking about the importance of the hijaab. Both are sinful not to have, although having a beard is waajib whereas wearing hijaab is fardh. But it's as if those brothers are so afraid of the kuffar themselves, yet want their Muslim sisters to be the lions and representatives of the Ummah. And it's so easy growing a beard compared to wearing a hijaab - you literally do nothing! Once in a few weeks you trim it, which takes like 15 minutes, and that's about it.
Fi aman Allah.
Sallam alaykum
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:19 AM
1)Blatant disrespect for the Sahabah
you speak of them as "old men talking about their glorious youth"
Do you have a comprehension problem? The Sahabah weren't immortal Gods. They were men who aged like we do.
The context was the oral tradition of Hadith and what I said had a relevance since the oldest surviving Sahabah continued to pass on Hadith till they died by which time we know even the greatest of memories can suffer!
If you want to think of them as forever young and immortal dieties then that's your problem not mine!
The Sahabah who didn't die young did end up as old men! It's no conspiracy and certainly no disrespect, even the beloved Prophet was an old man when he died!!
35:28 And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
I'm sorry? Where does it mention scholars?? :confused:
3) and your disrespect for hadiths and the sunnah is shocking,
Allah tells us;
“Whatever the Messenger gives you take it, and whatever he forbids you abstain from it.”
And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." [An-Nahal, 16:44]
subhan'allah,
At what point have I said we shouldn't do what the Prophet ordered us to do? Quote me one post where I've said that.
All I've said is that there is no guarantee the Sahih collections with us today are 100% authentic. To accept them as 100% authentic and therefore possibly attribute to the Prophet things he may never have said is what you should be trying to avoid!!
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:28 AM
i have no problems with sharing knowledge... the issue is will you accept it? my guess is probably not because seem to have already made up your mind in what you believe and will make excuses to retain that belief rather than accept you're wrong despite ample proof.
If you want to discuss then there's no place for emotion, if you put something forward and I question it then there is nothing wrong with that!
1. One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet said: "Seek help from your right hand," and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi' Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi' ibn Khadij, the famous companion of the Holy Prophet says, "I said to the Holy Prophet [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?" He replied: You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
3. Sayyiduna Anas reports that the Holy Prophet has said: Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi'-ul-Bayân]
4. Sayyiduna Abu Râfi' sought permission from the Holy Prophet to write ahâdîth. The Holy Prophet () permitted him to do so. [Jâmi' Tirmidhi]
It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi' were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ?Abbâs says:
I saw some small wooden boards with ?Abdullâh Ibn ?Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet which he acquired from Abu Râfi'. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa'd]
5. ?Abdullâh ibn ?Amr ibn al-?Âs reports that the Holy Prophet said to him: "Preserve knowledge." He asked, "and how should it be preserved?" The Holy Prophet replied, "by writing it." [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi'-ul-Bayân]
None of these Hadith abrogate the one I mentioned earlier, even in that Hadith the Prophet tells the companions that it's okay to write down Hadith. He doesn't stop them from writing down Hadith but he does place a condition.
These hadith have people asking the Prophet directly if they can write down what he is narrating because they forget it when they go away and the Prophet gives them permission.
These Hadith all agree with the one I showed you earlier but none of them abrogate it!!
That Hadith had a clear and unambigious instruction that Hadith must be narrated directly from the Prophet, none of these Hadith change that command. These Hadith only compliment the earlier Hadith!
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:30 AM
Before Imaam Malik would narrate any Hadith or or dictate Hadith to others he would perform wudhu or take a bath, put on his best and most expensive clothing, groom himself, put on musk or another fragrance, then proceed to the gathering of Hadith with the utmost dignity and respect.
These are our Role models. :)
Actually no, all four Imams (ra) agreed that to shave one's beard is haram.
Taken from http://www.islam.tc/beard/beard.html
The Beard according to the Great Imams of Jurisprudence
Hanafi
Imam Muhammed (R.A.) writes in his book "Kitabul Aathaar" where he relates from Imam Abu Hanifa (R.A.) who relates from Hadhrat Haytham (R.A.) who relates from Ibn Umar (R.A.) that he (Ibn Umar) used to hold his beard in his hand and cut off which was longer. Imam Muhammed (R.A.) says that this is what we follow and this was the decision of Imam Abu Hanifa. Therefore, according to Hanafies, to shorten the beard less than a FIST LENGTH is HARAAM and on this is IJMA (consensus of opinion).
Shafi'i
Imam Shafi (R.A.) in his Kitabul Umm states, "To shave the beard is HARAAM." (Shari Minhaj dar Shara Fasl Aqueeqa).
Maaliki
Shekh Ahmad Nafarawi Maliki in the commentary of Imam Abu Zayed's booklet states, "to shave the beard is without doubt haraam according to all Imams." It is also mention in "Tamheed" which is a commentary of "Muatta" (Sunnan Imam Malik (R.A.)) that to shave the beard is HARAAM and among males the only ones to resort to this practice (of shaving) are the HERMAPHRODITES (persons who possess both male and female features and characteristics).
Hanbali
The Hanbalies in the famous Al-Khanie'a Hanbali Fatawa Kitab state that "to grow the beard is essential and to shave it is HARAAM." Also in the Hanbali Mathab books "Sharahul Muntahaa" and "Sharr Manzoomatul Aadaab", it is stated "The most accepted view is that it is HARAAM (prohibited to shave the beard)."
Also note, according to scholars of Islam: "To shave off the beard is unlawful (haraam) and one who shaves his beard is legally speaking an unrighteous fellow (FASIQ); hence, it is NOT PERMISSIBLE to appoint such a man as an Imam. To say Taraweeh behind such an Imam is MAKRUH-E-TAHRIMI (near prohibition)" (Shami Vol.1, p.523)
The Durre-Mukhtar states: "No one has called it permissible to trim it (the beard) less than FIST-LENGTH as is being done by some westernized Muslims and hermaphrodites." (Vol. 2, p. 155). Also, "It is forbidden (haraam) for a man to cut off another's beard." (Vol. 5, p. 359).
So, not only do the four Imams (ra) say shaving one's beard is haram, but it's the consensus (ijma') of Islamic scholars, i.e. there's no difference of opinion on it.
What amazes me is those brothers without beards talking about the importance of the hijaab. Both are sinful not to have, although having a beard is waajib whereas wearing hijaab is fardh. But it's as if those brothers are so afraid of the kuffar themselves, yet want their Muslim sisters to be the lions and representatives of the Ummah. And it's so easy growing a beard compared to wearing a hijaab - you literally do nothing! Once in a few weeks you trim it, which takes like 15 minutes, and that's about it.
Fi aman Allah.
Sallam alaykum
I have great respect for both imaams. This ruling was past for their time and applied for their time. As with everything muslims have been stuck in the past and never will progress until ideas are refreshed.
Today times keeping a baggy beard refers to unclean, messy and a clown. Not keeping a beard refers to smart, gentlemen. Times are changing, opinions are changing. Thats why the quran has not mention of the beard being fard because Allah knows that time and opinions will change and that Islam should eb flexible to the current times, so its not looked upon as a freak show religion. Islam is afterall NOT only a religion its a whole way of life.
Refering to your last comment. No one contests hijab.. its niqab that is being contested here. If you dont know the difference read up on it.
None of these Hadith abrogate the one I mentioned earlier, even in that Hadith the Prophet tells the companions that it's okay to write down Hadith. He doesn't stop them from writing down Hadith but he does place a condition.
These hadith have people asking the Prophet directly if they can write down what he is narrating because they forget it when they go away and the Prophet gives them permission.
These Hadith all agree with the one I showed you earlier but none of them abrogate it!!
That Hadith had a clear and unambigious instruction that Hadith must be narrated directly from the Prophet, none of these Hadith change that command. These Hadith only compliment the earlier Hadith!
so what is your point? that hadith only apply to the people that have heard it directly from the Prophet :saw:?
none of us here have heard anything directly from the prophet :saw: so does that mean we can;t follow any ahadith at all?
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:44 AM
so what is your point? that hadith only apply to the people that have heard it directly from the Prophet :saw:?
none of us here have heard anything directly from the prophet :saw: so does that mean we can;t follow any ahadith at all?
Come on you're smarter than stooping to that?
When have I said that? I was only repeating the Prophet's instruction, if you have an issue with it then take it up with him!! :rolleyes:
The context was the oral tradition of Hadith and what I said had a relevance since the oldest surviving Sahabah continued to pass on Hadith till they died by which time we know even the greatest of memories can suffer!
All I've said is that there is no guarantee the Sahih collections with us today are 100% authentic. To accept them as 100% authentic and therefore possibly attribute to the Prophet things he may never have said is what you should be trying to avoid!!
The hadeeths have been rigorously scrutinized for accuracy by hadeeth scholars. We don't need to do it over again ourselves. It wasn't just a bunch of men passing on words to each other. Take a look at this: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/atit.html
I'm sorry? Where does it mention scholars??
"Those who have knowledge." The ones with knowledge, i.e. scholars, translates to 'ulema in Arabic.
Assalamu alaykum.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:46 AM
Before Imaam Malik would narrate any Hadith or or dictate Hadith to others he would perform wudhu or take a bath, put on his best and most expensive clothing, groom himself, put on musk or another fragrance, then proceed to the gathering of Hadith with the utmost dignity and respect.
These are our Role models. :)
Are you for real?
You should be putting forward meticulous methods, tests and procedures. Not what someone was wearing and whether they've had a bath.
I can't believe people actually put this forward as evidence :confused:
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:49 AM
:shock:
oh man, i just realised something,
The prophet s.a.w is going to intercede on behalf of the ummah on the day of judgement, but can u believe it sum people are refusing that cos they dont belive in the hadith..subhan'Allah :rubeyes:
Tic~Tac-Toe
17-08-07, 11:54 AM
Are you for real?
You should be putting forward meticulous methods, tests and procedures. Not what someone was wearing and whether they've had a bath.
I can't believe people actually put this forward as evidence :confused:
loving the way how lone differentates fiction from facts
Today times keeping a baggy beard refers to unclean, messy and a clown. Not keeping a beard refers to smart, gentlemen.
According to whom?
Thats why the quran has not mention of the beard being fard because Allah knows that time and opinions will change and that Islam should eb flexible to the current times, so its not looked upon as a freak show religion.
None of the scholars have said that what's required in Islam can change depending on times and opinions. What's haram is clear, and what's halal is clear - otherwise our deen would change just like the Christians'. The Qur'an also doesn't mention how to pray. So by your logic, could the way we pray change in the future too? Who would decide the new way to pray?
The Prophet (S) said that whoever interprets the Qur'an according to his own desires should take his seat in the fire. May Allah (SWT) save us from all of that. Ameen.
Come on you're smarter than stooping to that?
When have I said that? I was only repeating the Prophet's instruction, if you have an issue with it then take it up with him!! :rolleyes:
stooping to what? i'm really trying to understand what you are trying to imply from your understanding of the hadith you quoted... please explain clearly otherwise we we're going to keep going round in circles!
:shock:
oh man, i just realised something,
The prophet s.a.w is going to intercede on behalf of the ummah on the day of judgement, but can u believe it sum people are refusing that cos they dont belive in the hadith..subhan'Allah :rubeyes:according to hadith rejectors... men are allowed to beat their wives senseless coz of that ayah in the Quran.
fortunately, those that accept ahadith know better ;)
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 12:12 PM
according to hadith rejectors... men are allowed to beat their wives senseless coz of that ayah in the Quran.
fortunately, those that accept ahadith know better ;)
lool..
hadith rejectors dont even know how many times to go round the kabah during tawaf
:shock:
oh man, i just realised something,
The prophet s.a.w is going to intercede on behalf of the ummah on the day of judgement, but can u believe it sum people are refusing that cos they dont belive in the hadith..subhan'Allah :rubeyes:
sah and the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam already warned us about these people, 1400 years ago ....subhanAllah
Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that
the Messenger of Allaah salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah,(the Quran) and what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haram, we take as haram.’
then he salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
"But listen! take heed ! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allah forbids!"
(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi also reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).
Allah said:
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error” ( Al Quran Surah al-Ahzaab 33:36 )
Obeying the commands of the messanger,salallahu alleyhi wa salam is equal to obeying Allah subhanna wa ta ala,
The Prophet Salallahu alleyhi wa salam said, "All of my Ummah Will Enter Jannah Except Those Who Refuse"
The Companions Asked "But Who Would Refuse!"
He, Salallahu alleyhi wa salam Replied "Whoever Obeys Me Will Enter Paradise and Whoever Disobeys Me Has Refused to Enter Paradise"
Sahih Al Bukhari
Allah ta ala has warned us so strongly about ignoring the evidence..
"Whoever disobeys the Messenger after guidance has been clarified to him, and follows other than the path of the believers, We shall give to him what he deserves and broil him in hell, which is the worst abode."
( Al Quran surah An-Nisaa 4:115 )
sis_niqabi
17-08-07, 12:33 PM
lool..
hadith rejectors dont even know how many times to go round the kabah during tawaf
hadith rejectors dont even know how to pray. nor do they know the fiqh of fasting,marriage,zakat and so much more.
hadith rejetors also eat with their left hand,dont make istinjah.
sis_niqabi
17-08-07, 12:35 PM
May Allah guide my kids from people like you
May Allah guide your kids away from the deviancy you are on. Ameen!
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 12:37 PM
hadith rejectors dont even know how to pray. nor do they know the fiqh of fasting,marriage,zakat and so much more.
hadith rejetors also eat with their left hand,dont make istinjah.
hadith rejectors dont know how to bury their dead.
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 12:38 PM
hadith rejectors dont know how to get married
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 12:49 PM
016.044
PICKTHAL: With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.
if the Prophet s.a.w "explained" what was revealed, where do we find the explanation?
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 01:23 PM
Hadith rejectors aint muslim, half hadith rejectors aint muslim, those that dislike the sunnah aint muslim, those that dislike the shari hudood aint muslim, those that say no rulings can be made from ahadith aint muslim either.
If anyone thinks i'm making wrong takfir then they should check the shari rulings and see if what i've said contradicts it.
umm shuyookh
17-08-07, 01:33 PM
Hadith rejectors aint muslim, half hadith rejectors aint muslim, those that dislike the sunnah aint muslim, those that dislike the shari hudood aint muslim, those that say no rulings can be made from ahadith aint muslim either.
If anyone thinks i'm making wrong takfir then they should check the shari rulings and see if what i've said contradicts it.
Brother Lonewolf??? u still there?
sis_niqabi
17-08-07, 01:38 PM
Hadith rejectors aint muslim, half hadith rejectors aint muslim, those that dislike the sunnah aint muslim, those that dislike the shari hudood aint muslim, those that say no rulings can be made from ahadith aint muslim either.
If anyone thinks i'm making wrong takfir then they should check the shari rulings and see if what i've said contradicts it.
All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.
The sect that only relies on the evidence of the Quran is Al-Khawaarij in the former times, but in the present time, there is a group called the Qur’aniyoon (those who rely on the Quran) and who believe in the same belief; there are some of them in few countries. This belief infiltrated them through some orientalists and defeated intellectuals.
Denying the Sunnah is an act that takes the person out of the fold of Islam because the Sunnah explains and clarifies the Quran. Moreover, the Sunnah contains some legislations that were not mentioned in the Quran. Therefore, it is an obligation for whoever believes in the Quran to believe in the Sunnah as Allaah Says (what means): {And whatever the Messenger [Muhammad ] has given you — take it; and what he has forbidden you — refrain from it.}[Quran 59:7]. Allaah further Says (what means): {He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allaah.}[Quran 4:80]. In another verse Allaah Says (what means): {And We revealed to you the message [i.e. the Quran] that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.}[Quran 16:44]. Indeed there are many verses in this context.
Allaah Knows best.
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=91740&Option=FatwaId
Hadith rejectors aint muslim, half hadith rejectors aint muslim, those that dislike the sunnah aint muslim, those that dislike the shari hudood aint muslim, those that say no rulings can be made from ahadith aint muslim either.
If anyone thinks i'm making wrong takfir then they should check the shari rulings and see if what i've said contradicts it.
You must be really stupid. No one here is rejecting hadith
sis_niqabi
17-08-07, 01:41 PM
I hear what is called 'the Qur'aaniyyoon' and they perform three prayers only: Fajr, Maghrib and 'Ishaa'. Are these prayers valid?
Fatwa
All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.
Whoever denies one of the five daily prayers he has indeed committed major disbelief and goes out of the fold of Islam as he has denied something that is confirmed by evidence [from the Book of Allaah or the Sunnah of the Prophet ] and which no one can deny.
Allaah Knows best.
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=91667&Option=FatwaId
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 02:21 PM
hey i dont think the question about mutawatir hadiths was answered.
why don't the hadith rejecters accept those?
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 02:43 PM
You must be really stupid. No one here is rejecting hadith
Read my post again.
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 03:19 PM
You must be really stupid. No one here is rejecting hadith
how about reading these posts,
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2076091&postcount=517
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2076058&postcount=512
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2075976&postcount=507
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2075946&postcount=506
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071359&postcount=278
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071295&postcount=272
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071242&postcount=266
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071233&postcount=265
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2070596&postcount=249
how about reading these posts,
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2076091&postcount=517
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2076058&postcount=512
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2075976&postcount=507
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2075946&postcount=506
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071359&postcount=278
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071295&postcount=272
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071242&postcount=266
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2071233&postcount=265
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2070596&postcount=249
How about you read them.... there is no mention of hadith being rejected. :confused:
umm shuyookh
17-08-07, 05:10 PM
How about you read them.... there is no mention of hadith being rejected. :confused:
brother, calm down and go read those posts again. If you are still confused, read them a second time.:lahawla:
brother, calm down and go read those posts again. If you are still confused, read them a second time.:lahawla:
brother you calm down and read them and tell me where i rejected the hadith. Im not calm because stupid people who dont have an appropriate answer in a discussion just go on and start categorising people as this and that.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 07:13 PM
according to hadith rejectors... men are allowed to beat their wives senseless coz of that ayah in the Quran.
fortunately, those that accept ahadith know better ;)
If you need to be told not to beat your wife then you've got more problems than whether or not you believe in Hadith :rolleyes:
Besides I've told you that I don't reject Hadith so why are you putting words into my mouth?
I've clearly said that I don't believe every Hadith in the Sahih collections is 100% authentic.
The collectors may have had the best of intentions but that doesn't mean that they didn't make mistakes because like you and I they were only human.
Only Allah(swt) is capable of making a flawless book or collection and that is the Quran.
If you say the Hadith collections are flawless then what status are we elevating the collectors to? What is their status if we believe they are infallible?
If they are truly infallible then would you agree if there is conflict that Hadiths collected by them should overrule the Quran??
Do you believe the entire Sahih collections are 100% authentic?
ImaanSeeker
17-08-07, 07:48 PM
If you need to be told not to beat your wife then you've got more problems than whether or not you believe in Hadith :rolleyes:
Besides I've told you that I don't reject Hadith so why are you putting words into my mouth?
I've clearly said that I don't believe every Hadith in the Sahih collections is 100% authentic.
The collectors may have had the best of intentions but that doesn't mean that they didn't make mistakes because like you and I they were only human.
Only Allah(swt) is capable of making a flawless book or collection and that is the Quran.
If you say the Hadith collections are flawless then what status are we elevating the collectors to? What is their status if we believe they are infallible?
If they are truly infallible then would you agree if there is conflict that Hadiths collected by them should overrule the Quran??
Do you believe the entire Sahih collections are 100% authentic?
so in other words, you pick and choose which hadith seems authentic to you?
if you see a hadith mandating the beard, you make it a false hadith because you don't want to grow a beard.
If you follow hadith its great. If you dont its no SIN. So yea you can pick and choose cause at the end of the day its not FARD
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 07:54 PM
so in other words, you pick and choose which hadith seems authentic to you?
Why not answer the question?
Do you believe they are all 100% authentic?? And if yes then based on what?
Peacenik
17-08-07, 09:16 PM
Why not answer the question?
Do you believe they are all 100% authentic?? And if yes then based on what?
LoneWolf, I'm surprised and shocked you say you don't believe in all Sahih Hadiths.
How can you say such a thing ?
Have you spent a lifetime like the Compilers of such Hadiths ?
Have you painstakingly verified, un-verified, re-verified, checked, double-checked the Hadith, to make sure they're authentic ?
Like the Compilers ?
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 09:21 PM
If you follow hadith its great. If you dont its no SIN. So yea you can pick and choose cause at the end of the day its not FARD
if you follow the hadith good for you, if you don't then you're a kaafir.
simple as that.
Peacenik
17-08-07, 09:22 PM
if you follow the hadith good for you, if you don't then you're a kaafir.
simple as that.
Be careful, Bro.
Calling someone an unbeliever without proof is a very, very bad thing.
Ibn-e-Muslim
17-08-07, 09:29 PM
if you follow the hadith good for you, if you don't then you're a kaafir.
simple as that.
ouch that hurts
Muslim = who follows Quran and sunnah
Kafir = who does not follow Quran and sunnah
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 09:32 PM
LoneWolf, I'm surprised and shocked you say you don't believe in all Sahih Hadiths.
I said I don't believe them ALL to be 100% authentic, when something is collected in verbal form 150 years after the event. There will always be some discrepancies no matter how diligent the collector.
The Prophet knew the danger of following Hadith that are spread verbally which is why we have the following Hadith...
Book 042, Number 7147: (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/042.smt.html#042.7147)
Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur'an, he should efface that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire.
The Prophet was a far more intelligent man than either of us, he knew what he was talking about!!
But then again can we be sure even this Hadith is authentic?
At the very least it should give food for thought for those who believe in the 100% authenticity of all Sahih Hadith.
The Prophet didn't agree with the isnad method of Hadith recording :coolbro:
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 09:37 PM
still no comments on mutawatir hadiths ???
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 09:50 PM
Be careful, Bro.
Calling someone an unbeliever without proof is a very, very bad thing.
go and search the internet for a fatwa to prove that hadith rejectors are muslim, see if you can find one then come back and tell me i'm wrong.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 10:06 PM
still no comments on mutawatir hadiths ???
Who was the question to?
Mutawatir Hadith are stronger than Hadith with fewer reporters but it's important to look at the isnad. Is there a point when the same name is mentioned in all or most of the Hadith?
If the isnad relay for two Hadith with different initial reporters, at some point features the same name then that Hadith should only be counted once. This is because you have to account for the factor that the person featured in all the isnads may have consolidated the matn to ensure consistency before passing it on!
Any Mutawatir Hadith that is reported 5 or more times with completely independent isnad's is pretty strong in my book!!
Besides I've told you that I don't reject Hadith so why are you putting words into my mouth?i didn't call you a hadith rejector :smack: pay attention!
urban_rose
17-08-07, 10:31 PM
Lone Wolf should change his avatar....
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 10:33 PM
Who was the question to?
Mutawatir Hadith are stronger than Hadith with fewer reporters but it's important to look at the isnad. Is there a point when the same name is mentioned in all or most of the Hadith?
If the isnad relay for two Hadith with different initial reporters, at some point features the same name then that Hadith should only be counted once. This is because you have to account for the factor that the person featured in all the isnads may have consolidated the matn to ensure consistency before passing it on!
Any Mutawatir Hadith that is reported 5 or more times with completely independent isnad's is pretty strong in my book!!
do u have access to all the hadiths, to het 5+ reports of the same hadith? or do u rely on sumone elses work?
and do you verify the isnads urself?
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 10:36 PM
do u have access to all the hadiths, to het 5+ reports of the same hadith? or do u rely on sumone elses work?
and do you verify the isnads urself?
What is this? 2000 questions?
I've answered plenty of yours, now my turn!
Do you believe the Sahih collections are 100% authentic and why?
Do you believe the collectors were infallible and if you don't then how does that sit with your belief in relation to the hadith?
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 10:37 PM
Lone Wolf should change his avatar....
Because?? :confused:
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 10:38 PM
What is this? 2000 questions?
I've answered plenty of yours, now my turn!
Do you believe the Sahih collections are 100% authentic and why?
Do you believe the collectors were infallible and if you don't then how does that sit with your belief in relation to the hadith?
hey my beliefs are in line with many notable scholars throughout history, so u wanna know what i believe go read up on one them :up:
see the thing is with u, i cant find anyone like you, so thats why i have loadsaa questions innit.
so u didnt answer...
do u have access to all the hadiths, to het 5+ reports of the same hadith? or do u rely on sumone elses work?
and do you verify the isnads urself?
Abu Mus'ab
17-08-07, 10:40 PM
Because?? :confused:
Because we don't want to see what you look like duh :rolleyes:
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:01 PM
hey my beliefs are in line with many notable scholars throughout history, so u wanna know what i believe go read up on one them
Answer my questions and then we'll move on, otherwise I guess we're stuck in a circle.
It really is bad manners that I've been answering your questions so nicely but you wont answer mine ;)
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:03 PM
Because we don't want to see what you look like duh :rolleyes:
I'm not the only one with a photoshopped pic so perhaps you should start with the ones who had a pic up before me ;)
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:05 PM
Answer my questions and then we'll move on, otherwise I guess we're stuck in a circle.
It really is bad manners that I've been answering your questions so nicely but you wont answer mine ;)
oh dear seems we are, i have no need to justify my beliefs because they are what ahlus sunnah follow, whereas what u say is "strange"
but hey for ur purposes and what u think we believe for the time being,
i "blind follow", so now ur turn
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:11 PM
oh dear seems we are, i have no need to justify my beliefs because they are what ahlus sunnah follow, whereas what u say is "strange"
but hey for ur purposes and what u think we believe for the time being,
i "blind follow", so now ur turn
Stop beating around the bush. Answer the questions I asked.
I've been answering yours in detail, a bit of common courtesy please ;)
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:12 PM
Stop beating around the bush. Answer the questions I asked.
I've been answering yours in detail, a bit of common courtesy please ;)
see the interesting thing is it seems, that u are avoiding my questions,
but hey im sure u wudnt be, right?
Do you believe the Sahih collections are 100% authentic and why?
Because scholars who have spent their entire lives verifying these collections and each others' analysis say so. To disbelieve that the sahih collections are 100% authentic is illogical, it's like saying a high schooler taking algebra knows something hundreds of years of mathematics professors haven't.
Why don't you look at the Intro to Hadeeth Sciences link posted a page or two ago? Do you prefer posting your own opinions, which are based on your own desires, rather than seeking knowledge?
Tic~Tac-Toe
17-08-07, 11:15 PM
:1popcorn:
A more accurate analogy is, a high school kid taking algebra is saying the foundational principles of mathematics are flawed. Not only is the unanimous agreement of mathematics scholars against him, but he has no proof for his belief whatsoever.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:21 PM
see the interesting thing is it seems, that u are avoiding my questions,
but hey im sure u wudnt be, right?
Interesting that I have been answering everything you've asked so far (in detail) but the moment I ask you a question you avoid it.
Then you say I'm avoiding your questions.
Do you ever read your posts back to yourself? :D
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:23 PM
Interesting that I have been answering everything you've asked so far (in detail) but the moment I ask you a question you avoid it.
Then you say I'm avoiding your questions.
Do you ever read your posts back to yourself? :D
ah see, when u ask a question in reply to a question that is avoiding the question :D
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:23 PM
To disbelieve that the sahih collections are 100% authentic is illogical, it's like saying a high schooler taking algebra knows something hundreds of years of mathematics professors haven't.
Please tell me you didn;t just say that :confused:
Tic~Tac-Toe
17-08-07, 11:23 PM
A more accurate analogy is, a high school kid taking algebra is saying the foundational principles of mathematics are flawed. Not only is the unanimous agreement of mathematics scholars against him, but he has no proof for his belief whatsoever.
im a little confused wiv dis...dw i usually am....but was u referrin to lone wolf
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:25 PM
ah see, when u ask a question in reply to a question that is avoiding the question :D
You really are quite sad.
Learn how to articulate what you believe then come back and tell me what you believe, then we will continue.
I'm willing to answer questions as long as there is give and take but I'm not going to sit here and answer your questions till kingdom come without you reciprocating!
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:27 PM
You really are quite sad.
Learn how to articulate what you believe then come back and tell me what you believe, then we will continue.
I'm willing to answer questions as long as there is give and take but I'm not going to sit here and answer your questions till kingdom come without you reciprocating!
lets see..
insult :up:
refusing to answer question :up:
hmmm..shall we draw conclusions,
but hey u want my beleiefs...how much do u wanna read..cos i can copy and paste hundreds of articles...
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:29 PM
but hey u want my beleiefs...how much do u wanna read..cos i can copy and paste hundreds of articles...
I wanna know what you believe in your own words.
I don't want copy and paste from someone else!!
im a little confused wiv dis...dw i usually am....but was u referrin to lone wolf
Yep. A person with only a basic understanding of a subject has no right to say its foundational principles are false without evidence. This is an insult to the long history of scholars who have worked to rigorously verify the foundational principles of the subject.
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:29 PM
I wanna know what you believe in your own words.
I don't want copy and paste from someone else!!
ah see, i believ what loadsa other people believe, so i can use their words, u however have a problem that u cant do that.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:33 PM
ah see, i believ what loadsa other people believe, so i can use their words, u however have a problem that u cant do that.
If it's what you believe and if you sincerely comprehend your beliefs. Then it's not difficult to put those beliefs into words.
Or are you saying you dont understand you beliefs or comprehend them enough to put them down in your own words?
ImaanSeeker
17-08-07, 11:33 PM
Yep. A person with only a basic understanding of a subject has no right to say its foundational principles are false without evidence. This is an insult to the long history of scholars who have worked to rigorously verify the foundational principles of the subject.
lone wolf has no respect for any ulama, so your point is a moot point.
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:35 PM
If it's what you believe and if you sincerely comprehend your beliefs. Then it's not difficult to put those beliefs into words.
Or are you saying you dont understand you beliefs or comprehend them enough to put them down in your own words?
nice try, u still havent answered my questions :D
if u want me to say, for the purposes here then, yes i have "blind belief"
Please tell me you didn;t just say that
I'm sorry. It's only logical.
And your statement that for 150 years hadeeths were transmitted only through hearsay is totally incorrect.
If you don't believe the sahih hadeeths are correct (especially without evidence as in your case), that makes you a rejector of hadeeth. It looks like you're just judging the entire collection of hadeeth based off some self-made assumptions of how hadeeths were collected.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:37 PM
nice try, u still havent answered my questions :D
if u want me to say, for the purposes here then, yes i have "blind belief"
for the purposes? i'm not interested in that.
Just tell me what you believe and why. Surely you can do that. Why do you continually refuse to answer my two simples questions?
What are you so afraid of? I answered loads of yours!
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:39 PM
for the purposes? i'm not interested in that.
Just tell me what you believe and why. Surely you can do that. Why do you continually refuse to answer my two simples questions?
What are you so afraid of? I answered loads of yours!
still avoiding huh :D
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:39 PM
I'm sorry. It's only logical.
And your statement that for 150 years hadeeths were transmitted only through hearsay is totally incorrect.
If you don't believe the sahih hadeeths are correct (especially without evidence as in your case), that makes you a rejector of hadeeth. It looks like you're just judging the entire collection of hadeeth based off some self-made assumptions of how hadeeths were collected.
I'll get back to you as soon as ibn suleiman gives me a detailed response to my questions.
Lone Wolf
17-08-07, 11:42 PM
still avoiding huh :D
Look forget it.
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who can't even articulate what he believes but constantly badgers me with questions!
I promise that I'll answer your questions if you answer mine first. If you arent able to answer my questions then stop acting like a child!
That's my last reply to you on this subject until you answer my questions ;)
End of!
I'll get back to you as soon as ibn suleiman gives me a detailed response to my questions.
He follows over a thousand years of Islamic scholarship. If that's what you're looking for, I don't think that can fit into a few posts on this message board. The real question is: Why do you believe in what you do?
ImaanSeeker
17-08-07, 11:44 PM
Look forget it.
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who can't even articulate what he believes but constantly badgers me with questions!
I promise that I'll answer your questions if you answer mine first. If you arent able to answer my questions then stop acting like a child!
That's my last reply to you on this subject until you answer my questions ;)
End of!
list your questions, we'll answer them.
ibn suleman
17-08-07, 11:44 PM
Look forget it.
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who can't even articulate what he believes but constantly badgers me with questions!
I promise that I'll answer your questions if you answer mine first. If you arent able to answer my questions then stop acting like a child!
That's my last reply to you on this subject until you answer my questions ;)
End of!
:D
so u want me to write out teh follwing in my own words?
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/asb7.html
ur answers are all there..
u still havent answered my questions....
Omar Mukhtar
18-08-07, 12:10 AM
Dont u guys get tired.
Sunni Student
18-08-07, 12:19 AM
Dont u guys get tired.
thats what am thinking :scratch:
~Jafrene~
18-08-07, 02:31 PM
i would love to marry someone with a beard for his deen, but if he cant grow it for any reason then its nt his fault.
if you follow the hadith good for you, if you don't then you're a kaafir.
simple as that.
I think your trying to say is if someone deny's it. Not following it does not mean you deny it. Its an optional not fard.
Abu Mus'ab
18-08-07, 08:08 PM
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=137537
Redmist
18-08-07, 08:20 PM
I think its wrong that sisters say that he must have a beard or else. Beard is good and praiseworthy but to reject someone on the basis that they have no beard is absurd. You do get a lot of guys with beards who are the filthyiest guys on earth and you do get guys without beards who are decent and good guys, just like to point that out.
A beard is not an automatic sign of piety.
mnaeemaq
19-08-07, 07:44 AM
Well, I am beard...what do you think??:)
*Al-Qadr*
19-08-07, 11:43 PM
Well, I am beard...what do you think??:)
lollllll your a beard? :rubeyes:
sis_niqabi
20-08-07, 01:14 PM
I think its wrong that sisters say that he must have a beard or else. Beard is good and praiseworthy but to reject someone on the basis that they have no beard is absurd. You do get a lot of guys with beards who are the filthyiest guys on earth and you do get guys without beards who are decent and good guys, just like to point that out.
A beard is not an automatic sign of piety.
you are right it's not the only sign of piety. but some of us sisters here believe that the beard is wajib.
for me the beard is the hijab. many brothers would not marry a non-hijabi. just like many of us women would not marry a non-beardo.
you are right it's not the only sign of piety. but some of us sisters here believe that the beard is wajib.
for me the beard is the hijab. many brothers would not marry a non-hijabi. just like many of us women would not marry a non-beardo.
its a choice we men respect
I think its wrong that sisters say that he must have a beard or else. Beard is good and praiseworthy but to reject someone on the basis that they have no beard is absurd. You do get a lot of guys with beards who are the filthyiest guys on earth and you do get guys without beards who are decent and good guys, just like to point that out.
A beard is not an automatic sign of piety.
How could following Islam be absurd? a beard is not a sign of piety but it is a good sign that he has bothered to study his deen, enough to know that a beard is fard for a man, just as hijab is for a woman. I would never consider a brother with no beard, unless he couldnt grow one, thats different.
How could a muslim woman stand there every morning and watch her husband do a haram action by shaving his beard... haram is haram, if he had a drink of beer every morning what would be the difference ? none as far as i can see. its all haram.
How could following Islam be absurd? a beard is not a sign of piety but it is a good sign that he has bothered to study his deen, enough to know that a beard is fard for a man, just as hijab is for a woman. I would never consider a brother with no beard, unless he couldnt grow one, thats different.
How could a muslim woman stand there every morning and watch her husband do a haram action by shaving his beard... haram is haram, if he had a drink of beer every morning what would be the difference ? none as far as i can see. its all haram.
thats where your wrong... and i have a very strong feeling that your never going to think and actually consider yourself being wrong for once so good luck.
sis_niqabi
20-08-07, 01:38 PM
How could following Islam be absurd? a beard is not a sign of piety but it is a good sign that he has bothered to study his deen, enough to know that a beard is fard for a man, just as hijab is for a woman. I would never consider a brother with no beard, unless he couldnt grow one, thats different.
How could a muslim woman stand there every morning and watch her husband do a haram action by shaving his beard... haram is haram, if he had a drink of beer every morning what would be the difference ? none as far as i can see. its all haram.
exactly!
Allah's Apostle said, "Cut the moustaches short and leave the beard (as it is)."(Sahih Bukhari No. 5513)
Ibn Umar said: The Prophet of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.(Sahih Muslim No. 498)
Ibn Umar said: The Prophet of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) ordered us to trim the moustache closely and spare the beard.(Sahih Muslim No.499)
sis_niqabi
20-08-07, 01:43 PM
A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one's private parts with water.The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth. (Sahih Muslim No. 502)
thats where your wrong... and i have a very strong feeling that your never going to think and actually consider yourself being wrong for once so good luck.
sorry how am i wrong about the fact that the beard is fard an obligation for all men and that it is haram to shave the beard ?
let me show you the authentic evidence from the Quran and sahih sunnah :up: then you will no longer be confused about this issue. thanks.
The Beard
It obligatory for a man to have a beard, he must not shave it. Shaving the beard is haraam because of the saheeh ahaadeeth that clearly state this, and because of the general application of texts that forbid resembling the kuffaar. One of these reports is the hadeeth of Ibn 'Umar who said that,
"the Messenger of Allah salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
" Be different from the mushrikeen let your beards grow and trim your moustaches." According to another report: " Trim your moustaches and let your beards grow."
There are other hadeeth which convey the same meaning, which is to leave the beard as it is and let it grow long, without shaving, plucking or cutting any part of it. Ibn Hazm reported that there was scholarly consensus that it is an obligation (fard) to trim the moustache and let the beard grow.
He quoted a number of ahaadeeth as evidence, including the hadeeth of Ibn 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) quoted above, and the hadeeth of Zayd ibn Arqam in which the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
"Whoever does not remove any of his moustache is not one of us." (Classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: "The Qur'aan, Sunnah and ijmaa' (scholarly consensus) all indicate that we must differ from the kuffaar in all aspects and not imitate them, because imitating them on the outside will make us imitate them in their bad deeds and habits, and even in beliefs, which will result in befriending them in our hearts, just as loving them in our hearts will lead to imitating them on the outside.
Al-Tirmidhi reported that the Messenger of Allah salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
"He is not one of us who imitates people other than us. Do not imitate the Jews and Christians."
According to another narration he said, "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." (Reported by Imaam Ahmad)
'Umar ibn al-Khattaab rejected the testimony of the person who plucked his beard. Imaam Ibn 'Abd al-Barr said in al-Tamheed: "It is forbidden to shave the beard, and no one does this except men who are effeminate" i.e., those who imitate women.
"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had a thick beard" (reported by Muslim from Jaabir).
It is not permitted to remove any part of the beard because of the meaning of the texts which forbid doing so.
The beard (Arabic: liyah) is defined as the hair which grows on the cheeks and the jaws. It includes the hair of the temples, the growth underneath the lower lip, the hair of the chin, and the hair that grows on the lower side of the jaws.
Growing the beard is wajib (an obligation) and not optional, it is for all males who are capable of doing so. This has ample evidence in the Sunnah (as will be shown below) and is the unanimous opinion of the ulamaa of Islam. One should not be misled by a few contemporary shaykhs, and by their providing shaky fatwas to support their action. By doing that they make people follow them into the wrong way.
The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam said,
"Allah does not pull the knowledge abruptly from the hearts of people, but he takes away the knowledge by taking [the lives of] the `ulamaa (true scholars). When no `ulamaa are left, people will take ignorant persons for leaders. They will give them fatwa (religious verdicts)without knowledge. By doing this, they will go astray and lead others astray as well." ( sahih Al-Bukhari )
when the Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
"He who revives a good sunnah (the way of Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam) will be rewarded for it, in addition to receiving rewards equal to the rewards of those who follow him into it. Whereas he who starts a biddah (a bad sunnah ) will be burdened with it, in addition to receiving burdens equal to the burdens of those who follow him into it. " ( sahih Muslim )
Shaving the beard results in a series of Islamic violations, as is obvious from Allah's Book and His Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam, Sunnah. The following is a list just a few of such violations.
The first is disobedience to Allah. Shaving the beard is a disobedience to Allah as this next hadith clearly shows. Allah has commanded the muslim men to wear their beards.
"The ruler of Yemen, appointed by the Persian emperor Kisraa, sent two envoys to the Messenger to summon him. When they came into his presence, he noticed that they had shaved their beards and grew their moustaches. He hated to look at them (because of their odd appearance) and he said: Woe be to you ! who told you to do so? They replied: " Our lord " (Referring to the emperor Kisraa.) The Messenger then said, "My Lord, Allah may He be exalted and glorified, has commanded me to leave alone my beard and to trim my moustache." Recorded by Ibn Jar ra-abar. (Hasan, al-Albani.)
Shaving the beard is also disobedience to the Messenger,salallahu alleyhi wa salam. In many hadiths, the Messenger,salallahu alleyhi wa salam,commanded men to leave alone their beards. These hadiths and ayats also show the obligation of obeying the messanger in regards to a command.
" Trim the moustache and save the beard " . (sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim)
Obeying the Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam, in that, is equivalent to obeying Allah who said
“He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah.” (An Nisaa 4:80)
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error”
al-Ahzaab 33:36
shaving the beard is also a deviation from the Appearance and Guidance of the Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam.
"The Messenger used to have a large beard. " ( sahih Muslim )
One should strive to imitate Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam in his practices, as Allah said;
" In the Messenger of Allah is a good example for you to follow. " ( Al-Ahzab 33:21)
And the Messenger said, "Verily, the best guidance is Muhammad's guidance." ( sahih Muslim )
Shaving the beard is a deviation from the way of believers. All of the prophets alleyhi salam , the sahabah (Prophet's companions), the great `ulemaa, and the righteous early Muslims of this Ummah (Nation) grew their beards. There is no report of a single one of them ever shaving his beard. This is their way.The way of the muslim men.
Allah says in the Quran,
"Whoever disobeys the Messenger after guidance has been clarified to him, and follows other than the path of the believers, We shall give to him what he deserves and broil him in hell, which is the worst abode." ( An-Nisaa 4:115 )
Shaving the beard is an imitation of the disbelievers. This has been emphasized in several hadiths of the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam. For example:
"Cut the moustaches and grow your beards. Be different from the Magians" (followers of a religion that dominated in Persia.)
( sahih Muslim )
The Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said,
" Cut your moustaches and leave your beards alone! Be different from the people of the scripture." ( sahih Muslim )
and he salallahu alleyhi wa salam also said,
" Be different from the Mushrikin (those who worship other than Allah, trim your moustaches and save your beards!" (sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim)
We have been commanded to be different and distinct from the disbelievers, as in surah al-Fatihah. In addition, Allah said,
“Follow not the whims of those who have no knowledge (of Islam)." (Al-Jathiyah 45:18)
And His Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
“Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” (Abu Dawud, classed as sahih )
Changing the creation of Allah is a serious matter as we see in the following hadith,
" The Messenger declared that the women who change what Allah has created (such as plucking the eyebrows or filing their teeth or tattooing their bodies) seeking by that to improve their appearance, are cursed by Allah" (sahih Al-Bukhari and Muslim) ( In this hadith women are specifically mentioned but the curse applies both to men and women who change the creation of Allah...)
The beard is a major distinction between men and women. Shaving it removes this distinction, and is thus a means of imitating women. The Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
"Allah curses those men who imitate the women, and He curses those women who imitate the men." ( sahih Al-Bukhari )
Shaving the Beard also Contradicts the Pure Fitrah (Nature) Allah's Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam mentioned ten qualities as indicative of a good, clean nature of a Muslim. Two of these qualities are to trim the moustaches and to grow the beard. The Messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam also tells us that,
"every child is born with a clean, pure fitrah, which later may get deformed by the influence of the environment and the up-bringing." (sahih Al- Bukhari and Muslim )
In the footsteps of the disbelievers, many Muslims' fitrah is now, unfortunately, so much deformed that they seem to find a clean-shaven man more handsome and masculine than one with a beard - exactly the opposite of what the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam declared in the above hadiths.
This fitrah never changes with time: Allah said,
"The pure nature according to which Allah has created people. There is no change in Allah's creation.” Ar-Ruum 30:30 )
For shaving their beards, some men give the strange excuse that their wives prefer them without one! As if their purpose in this life is to follow the deformed inclinations of their wives instead of the clear-cut commands of Allah and His Messenger!
Others claim that growing their beard results in irritability and scratching. This cannot result from abiding by the pure fitrah, but would result (if true) from neglect of the proper cleaning, washing, ghusl and wudu as instructed in the Sunnah.
‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab rejected the testimony of the person who plucked (shaved) his beard. Imaam Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in al-Tamheed: “It is forbidden to shave the beard, and no one does this except men who are effeminate” i.e., those who imitate women.
All the `ulamaa of al sunnah wa jam`aa, including the Four Imams, agreed that shaving the beard is haram ( forbidden ). They considered shaving it an impermissible mutilation, as has been reported about Umar bin Abdil-Aziz. They used to consider the person who shaved his beard effeminate.The ulema would not accept the witness of the one who shaved his beard, nor would they allow him to lead the salat. (prayers)
Letting the beard grow is an obligation (fard); it does not come under the category of sunnah Mu`akkadah, optional or mustahaab Sunnah as defined by the fuqahaa’.The is because the hadiths about the beard are in the specific form of an order and we must obey the messenger salallahu allayhi wa salam,his orders must be obeyed as the order of Allah suibhanna wa ta ala must be obeyed. And Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam informs us that Allah subhanna wa ta ala has ordered, indeed commamnded that the beard be left alone.
"The ruler of Yemen, appointed by the Persian emperor Kisraa, sent two envoys to the Messenger to summon him. When they came into his presence, he noticed that they had shaved their beards and grew their moustaches. He hated to look at them (because of their odd appearance) and he said: Woe be to you ! who told you to do so? They replied: " Our lord " (Referring to the emperor Kisraa.) The Messenger then said, "My Lord, Allah may He be exalted and glorified, has commanded me to leave alone my beard and to trim my moustache."
Recorded by Ibn Jar ra-abar. (Hasan, al-Albani.)
To say the beard is only sunnah, and not obligatory, one has to show some sort of sahih proof (ie: hadith)that the prophet salalahu alleyhi wa salam shaved his beard off, or that he allowed his companions to do this,this is the denfinition of a non obligatory sunnah action.
There is no such evidence,there is only the evidence in the contrary that the prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam ordered the Muslim man to leave his beard and therefore the hukum of this sunnah order, is an order of actions and is something that is obligatory,fard, and none of the ulema the ta`baeen or the companions were in disagreement about this.
Whoever shaves his beard is imitating the Majoos (Zoroastrians), going against the Fitrah (natural disposition of man), changing the creation of Allah,immitating women and disobeying the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam who said " leave your beard! "
The one who neglects an act that is an obligatory Sunnah will be punished.
Allah subhanna wa ta ala says in the Quran ,
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error”
al-Ahzaab 33:36
Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Haakim reported with a saheeh isnaad from al-Miqdaam that the Messenger of Allaah salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allah,(the Quran) and what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haram, we take as haram.’
then he salallahu alleyhi wa salam said
"But listen! take heed ! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allah forbids!"
(Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi also reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).
Obeying the commands of the messanger,salallahu alleyhi wa salam is equal to obeying Allah subhanna wa ta ala,
The Prophet Salallahu alleyhi wa salam said, "All of my Ummah Will Enter Jannah Except Those Who Refuse"
The Companions Asked "But Who Would Refuse!"
He, Salallahu alleyhi wa salam Replied "Whoever Obeys Me Will Enter Paradise and Whoever Disobeys Me Has Refused to Enter Paradise" Sahih Al Bukhari
The scholars also use the word “Sunnah” in contrast to bid’ah (reprehensible innovation) and say “Ahl al-Sunnah” (those who adhere to the Sunnah) to distinguish them from the followers of misguided kaafir sects such as the Jahamiyyah, or innovators who are not kaafirs, such as the Ash’aris and others. The obligatory Sunnah in this sense has to be followed. Following the way of Ahl al-Sunnah is obligatory, and whoever departs from their way is doomed.
Imaam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: the Sunnah is like the ship of Nooh: whoever boards it will be saved and whoever stays behind will be drowned.
Nay! O Muhammad - by your Rabb - they will never be true believers until they accept you as a judge in their disputes, then they do not find any resentment in their hearts against your verdicts and accept them with complete submission. (4:65)
Obeying the obligatory commands and orders of Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam fron the sahih sunnah, is as obligatory as obeying Allah subhanna wa ta ala
Narrated Aisha, The Rasulullah Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam said:
“Ten things are part of the fitrah: cutting the moustache, letting the beard grow, cleaning the teeth with a siwaak, rinsing the nose with water, cutting one’s nails, washing between the finger-joints, plucking the armpit hairs, shaving the pubic hair and cleaning one’s private parts with water.”(Reported by Imaan Ahmad, Muslim and the four authors of Sunan)
Sahih Al-Bukhari 9:651
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri Rasulullah Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam said,
"There will emerge from the East some people who will recite the Qur'an, but it will not exceed their throats and who will go out of (renounce) the religion (Islam) as an arrow passes through the game, and they will never come back to it unless the arrow, comes back to the middle of the bow (by itself) (i.e,its impossible)." The people asked, "What will their signs be?" He said, "Their sign will be the habit of shaving (their beards)."
(Sahih Fateh Al-Bari, Page 322, Vol. 17)
Imam Shafi (Rahimahullah) in his Kitabul Umm states, "To shave the beard is Haram ". (Shari Minfiaj dar Shara Fasl Aqueeqa).
It is quoted in Al Ibaab’, that Imaam Ibn Ar’rifaah says that Imaam Shafi, has categorically stated that shaving the beard is haram. (From the book "Al Ibaab")
Al Azraiy (Rahimahullah) says that the position in the Shafi madhab is that to shave the beard without a valid medical reason is haram. Similar verdict of prohibition has been issued by Zarakhshi, Baihaqi in his book, Shu’ab Al Iman, and by his teacher Qa’ffal Shashi in Muhasin As Shar’iyyah. (From the book "Shu’ab Al Iman")
Imam Malik (Rahimahullah)
Sheikh Ahmad Nafarawi Maliki in the commentary of Imam Abu Zayed's booklet states, "to shave the beard is without doubt haraam according to all 4 Imams", it is also mentioned in 'Tamheed' which is a commentary of "Muatta" Sunnan Imam Malik (Rahimahullah) that "to shave the beard is haram and among males the only ones to resort to this practice are the hermaphrodites."
(From the book "Tamheed")
Maliki Fiqh in Kitabul Ib’daa
To shave the beard is haram and to trim it in such a manner that it changes one’s natural and normal facial features is also haram. It is also quoted in Kitabul Ib’daa’, that "without doubt the four Madhabs are agreed that the beard should be lengthened and that shaving it is haram." (From the book "Kitabul Ib’daa")
Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (Rahimahullah)
The Hanbalies in their famous Al-KhanWa Hambli Fatawa Kitab state that "to grow the beard is essential and to shave it is Haram." Also in the Hambali Mathab books "Sharahul Muntaha' and "Shari Manzoomatul Aadaab", it is stated "The view is that it is haram (prohibited to shave the beard)".
Hanabli Fiqh..
From the book Hanabi Fiqh Shar’hul Muntahaa’
It is narrated in Shar’hul Muntahaa’ and Shar’hul Manzoomatul Adaab, "the accepted view is that it is haram to shave the beard." Some Ulama like the author of ‘Insaf’, have categorically stated that it is haram. There is no report from anyone to the contrary.
Sheikh ibn Abdur Rahman Al Banna
"Shaving the beard is strictly haram. This is in the Hanabli Madhab."
(From his book "Fathur Rabbani")
Shaikhul-Islam Ibn Taimiyah (Rahimahullah)
Stated that: "Shaving the beard is haram".
[Al-Ikhtiyarat Al-Ilmiyyah, page 6].
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The Qur’aan, Sunnah and ijmaa’ (scholarly consensus) all indicate that we must differ from the kuffaar in all aspects and not imitate them, because imitating them on the outside will make us imitate them in their bad deeds and habits, and even in beliefs, which will result in befriending them in our hearts, just as loving them in our hearts will lead to imitating them on the outside."Al-Tirmidhi reported that the Messenger of Allaah salallahu alleyhi wa salam said, “He is not one of us who imitates people other than us. Do not imitate the Jews and Christians.”
According to another version: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” (Reported by Imaam Ahmad)
‘Umar ibn Al-Khattaab rejected the testimony of the person who plucked his beard.
Imaam Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said in al-Tamheed: “It is forbidden to shave the beard, and no one does this except men who are effeminate” i.e., those who imitate women.
"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had a thick beard" (reported by Muslim from Jaabir).
It is not permitted to remove any part of the beard because of the general meaning of the texts which forbid doing so. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/133)
Imaam Ahmad Bin Hanbal, Imaam Abu Hanifah and Ath-Thawri (Rahimahullah) said
"All agreed that if the beard is removed, it is an act of mutilation. If someone was to remove an other mans beard by force he would have to pay the full "diyah" or blood money for this cruel act just as if he had removed an eye or a limb of the victum."
This is based upon the Sahih Hadith from Imaam Bukhari "Rasulullah (Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam) forbade robbing and taking propery by force and he forbade mutilation ." Imaam Ahmed Bin hanbal and Imaam Abu Hanifah agreed this includes a mans beard.(Sahih Bukhari)
Ibn Hazm (Rahimahullah) Said, "All the scholars of Islam have agreed that shaving of the beard is a form of mutilation, which is forbidden. As Allah (SWT) says in the Quran " No change let there be in Khalq*illâh (creation of Allâh) , that is the straight religion, but most of men know not." (Sura 30:Ayah 30)
Shaikh Al-Baani said, "It is not permissible for the Muslim to remove any hair from the beard except what the Lawgiver has allowed. It is reported from one of the companions who narrated the hadeeth, "Leave the beard and trim the moustaches" (sahih al Bukhari)
Trimming the beard is against the Sunnah, whether or not the man's beard is pleasing to him, and whether or not it is pleasing to others, for all of Allah's creation is handsome, as in the saheeh hadeeth, where the Prophet (Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam) saw a man with a long waist-shirt and ordered him to have his izaar halfway up his shins; the man gave the excuse that he had a defect in his ankles, so the Prophet (Sallallaahu alayhi Wasallam) said, "All of Allah's creation is handsome." (saheeh- Ahmad and others) This phrase is actually of Qur'anic origin of. Sajdah 32:7).
According to His Wisdom, Allah has differentiated between men and women, created man with a beard and created women without a beard; He did not do this without reason.
What is the ruling on one who trims his beard and makes all parts of it even in length?
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.
It is obligatory to leave the beard alone and let it grow, and not do anything to it, because it is proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Trim the moustache and let the beard grow; be different from the mushrikeen.” (Saheeh, agreed upon, narrated from Ibn ‘Umar).
Al-Bukhaari narrated in his Saheeh from ‘Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
“Cut the moustache and leave the beard alone; be different from the mushrikeen.”
Muslim narrated in his Saheeh from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said:
“Trim the moustache and let the beard grow; be different from the Magians (Zoroastrians).”
All of these ahaadeeth show that it is obligatory to leave the beard alone and let it grow, and that it is obligatory to trim the moustache. This is what is obligatory as taught and enjoined by the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam.
This was the example set by the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam and his companions to be different from the mushrikeen and to avoid resembling them or resembling women.
With regard to the report narrated by al-Tirmidhi (may Allah have mercy on him), that the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam used to trim something from the length and breadth of his beard, this is a daif (false) report according to the scholars, and it is not a saheeh report from the Prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam and Some people clung to this hadeeth to prove their point, but it is a report which is not saheeh, because its isnaad includes ‘Umar ibn Haaroon al-Balkhi, who was accused of lying.
It is not permissible for the believer to pay any attention to this false hadeeth, or to take what some scholars say as an excuse to disobey Allah and his messenger salallahu alleyhi wa salam. The obligatory Sunnah applies to everyone, and Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allaah”
[al-Nisa’ 4:80]
“Say: ‘Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allaah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way)’”
[al-Noor 24:54]
“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”
[al-Nisa’ 4:59]
Kitaab Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Maqaalaat Mutanawwi’ah li Samaahat al-Shaykh al-‘Allaamah ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him), vol. 4, p. 443 (www.islam-qa.com)
Allah subhanna wa ta ala says,
“It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error”
al-Ahzaab 33:36
May Allah subhanaa wa ta ala guide us to abide by His Deen, and to adhere to His Messenger's salallahu alleyhi wa salam Sunnah, and to be among those whom he blessed in this life and the hearafter.Amin
:lailah: no muslim man alive can read this and then claim is is not fard for him to leave his beard alone, and that includes trimming it to a fists length there is no sahih daleel to say this was the regular habit of the messenger of Allah salAllahu alleyhi wa salam,this is based on a daif hadith, and according to the sahabba, the tabiyeen, the madhabs, ibn taymiyyah, and any other true scolar of Islam who speaks only from what Allah and his messenger have said that, u want to name, it is an order that all muslim men leave their beards alone, and trim their moustaches.
Abu Mus'ab
20-08-07, 02:05 PM
sorry how am i wrong about the fact that the beard is fard an obligation for all men and that it is haram to shave the beard ?
According to people that reject the ahadith it is permissable to shave the beard :rolleyes:
sis_niqabi
20-08-07, 02:07 PM
According to people that reject the ahadith it is permissable to shave the beard :rolleyes:
and they are committing kufr+haraam. they reject hadith (kufr) and they are shaving their beards (haraam)
Tic~Tac-Toe
20-08-07, 02:21 PM
question: r u ment to follow the quran or hadith
question: does it mention the beard topic in the quran
thanks
question: r u ment to follow the quran or hadith
question: does it mention the beard topic in the quran
thanks
Allah says in the Quran to obey the orders of the messenger, now as the Quran is a book containing only the words of Allah, then the commands of the messenger Muhammad salAlllahu alleyhi wa salam, who Allah ta ala states in the Quran, does not speak from his own desires, are found in the authentic hadith.
As a muslim u must obey Allah and his messenger. Please read the article above, as u will find there all of the ayats where Allah commands you to obey his messenger salAllahu alleyhi wa salam in what he orders you to do. It is disbelief ( kufr) for a muslim to not accept both the Quran and sahih sunnah.
sis_niqabi
20-08-07, 02:32 PM
question: r u ment to follow the quran or hadith
question: does it mention the beard topic in the quran
thanks
we follow both. we follow the Quran and the Sunnah.
Is this poll asking whether or not people would accept a marriage proposal from a non-beardo, or is it asking would you tolerate living with a husband who has no beard because there's a difference..
I think it is important that the sister do not confuse the issue on this matter.
There are two things being discussed here, and they are being mixed.
1. The legality and Islamic stance on beard. On which the most affirmed account from our pious predecessors is that it is wajib. The length one fist. The ullama differ on the length with regards whether that length is wajib or not, but the actual beard is wajib on many different fronts. There are many dalael (reasons) for why it is so, from not looking like women, to not being like Jews and Christians, to this is a trait of my ummah etc.
2. Beard and choice of a husband, in many countries beard is part of the culture, as in many countries the hijab, or abaya is part of the culture. In both cases beard or abaya, it does not sanction the virtue or piety of the person. In some areas of the world like the java islands men find it difficult to grow beards. Therefore if a sister is going to reject marrying a brother simply because he doesnt have beard, then her reason needs to be Sharaee(from the shariah), that is "you are not practicing the sunnah of Rasoolullah".
Ultimately if everything is equal between two brothers, except one has a beard and the other shaves, you would go for the one with the beard, if his beard is for deen.
As for brothers with beards and sisters with hijab, hijab is fard, a sister who doesnt cover is not the same as a brother who doesnt have beard. A sister who doesnt cover in hijab is like a brother walking in his underwear. Because hijab is covering of awrah, and zeena. We have to be very careful how we draw parallels. and Allah knows best.
Tic~Tac-Toe
20-08-07, 04:30 PM
so i cn continue shaving yh
so i cn continue shaving yh
read this please. no you canot shave it is haram
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2083602&postcount=606
Tic~Tac-Toe
20-08-07, 07:34 PM
read this please. no you canot shave it is haram
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2083602&postcount=606
das bare lng, i read wht hekmaa sed, as it woz quoted:
1. The legality and Islamic stance on beard. On which the most affirmed account from our pious predecessors is that it is wajib. The length one fist. The ullama differ on the length with regards whether that length is wajib or not, but the actual beard is wajib on many different fronts. There are many dalael (reasons) for why it is so, from not looking like women, to not being like Jews and Christians, to this is a trait of my ummah etc.
das bare lng, i read wht hekmaa sed, as it woz quoted:
1. The legality and Islamic stance on beard. On which the most affirmed account from our pious predecessors is that it is wajib. The length one fist. The ullama differ on the length with regards whether that length is wajib or not, but the actual beard is wajib on many different fronts. There are many dalael (reasons) for why it is so, from not looking like women, to not being like Jews and Christians, to this is a trait of my ummah etc.
its not long, just read the bits in bold if u cant be bothered to read the rest.
akhi hekkma says according to the Quran and sahih sunnah, it is haram to shave it too.it is an obligation, something that you must do.
Tic~Tac-Toe
20-08-07, 07:55 PM
its not long, just read the bits in bold if u cant be bothered to read the rest.
akhi hekkma says according to the Quran and sahih sunnah, it is haram to shave it too.it is an obligation, something that you must do.
is tht wht wajib means a must do i thought it meant u hve a choice on tht matter
Saeed Al-Muslim
20-08-07, 07:57 PM
so i cn continue shaving yh
No, it's a sign of homosexuality. One who shaves his beard is a Fasiq/Evildoer and we are not allowed to pray behind such a man.
Wajid is much like Fard, it's something that is an obligation upon us.
Ma'aSalaama
Asalamu alaykum
..Beards are so cool :up:
Would I marry a non-beardo? Depends if he's a non-beardo on purpose or not..
Tic~Tac-Toe
20-08-07, 08:00 PM
No, it's a sign of homosexuality. One who shaves his beard is a Fasiq/Evildoer and we are not allowed to pray behind such a man.
Wajid is much like Fard, it's something that is an obligation upon us.
Ma'aSalaama
whts the diff, if any?
Asalamu alaykum
There is no difference..they both mean Obligatory. I guess they are two different words because there are two types of Fardh. Fardh 'ayn ( all muslims must do it, like salah) and Fard Kifaaya (if some muslims do it, the rest are off the hook..like praying salatul janaza on someone)
Rie_Maya
22-08-07, 08:52 PM
I read this on another forum:
The Shafi`i mashhur says shaving the beard is makruh,
The Maliki school if you want an easier route than Hanafis and Hanbalis says that you can just have a trimmed goatee.
And another reliable position of the Maliki school (not the mashhur) is that the beard is Sunnah (strongly reccomended) and not obligatory.
There are scholars in Morocco and North Africa without beards at all. In fact some of the greatest Qaris did not have beards - such as Qari `Abdul Bassit `Abdul Sammad.
Thus the beard is not an absolute obligation in the Shari`ah - with the reliable Shafi`i position allowing it's shaving as well as a reliable but not mashhur Maliki position. And you do not have to follow a single madhab in every matter.
Obviously this is without sources - does anyone have any souces to back up the Maliki opinion that it is Sunnah ????
Oh and I personally don't like beards....:rubeyes: I have very sensite skin! :rolleyes: