Lineage

[Ibn Khattab]

whats the importance of this when choosing a spouse?

i remember at a talk recently one of the sheikhs said its better to marry someone from a high lineage, like the Prophet S did.

what is lineage as in the definition and how important is it?

(8 marks)

[bint]

i think it means...

piety? oh gosh i dunno

*goes to do hmwrk on shekh google*

[Ebony]

Not too sure about high lineage, but I understood it to refer to someone from a "good" background (family wise). Maybe thats what they mean by "high" :scratch:

[Ibn Khattab]

i remember he mentioned something about various Sahabah R who married people from high nobility or something.

its got me proper confused lol

[Abu Mus'ab]

whats the importance of this when choosing a spouse?

i remember at a talk recently one of the sheikhs said its better to marry someone from a high lineage, like the Prophet S did.

what is lineage as in the definition and how important is it?

(8 marks)
Linage is of two types,

1: How many muslim ancestors you had (i.e your father and grandfather and great grad father etc etc)

2: From a noble tribe (like the Quraysh)

This comes under the chapter of kuff, a person wo has one father in islam is not the kuff of a person who has two or more fathers in islam.

Linage is not really important, it's not a must, you do it if you want to or yo don't do it if you don't want to.

[ibn suleman]

see this
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=84306&ln=eng


do i get full marks :D

[Abu Mus'ab]

i remember he mentioned something about various Sahabah R who married people from high nobility or something.

its got me proper confused lol
What's his name? this shiekh's name.

[Barracuda]

Linage is of two types,

1: How many muslim ancestors you had (i.e your father and grandfather and great grad father etc etc)

2: From a noble tribe (like the Quraysh)

This comes under the chapter of kuff, a person wo has one father in islam is not the kuff of a person who has two or more fathers in islam.

Linage is not really important, it's not a must, you do it if you want to or yo don't do it if you don't want to.
True indeed.:up:

[Ibn Khattab]

see this
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=84306&ln=eng


do i get full marks :D

safety, will check it out :up:

What's his name? this shiekh's name.

sheikh Fullaan Al Muslim

[.: Anna :.]

i think it means...

piety? oh gosh i dunno

*goes to do hmwrk on shekh google*nah it doesnt mean that at all :p because those with good lineage still may not be pious but those from humble lineage and background could be very pious, its not connected...

hmm but wen i hear of lineage in regards 2 marriage first thing coming 2 mind is these family trees ppl keep to show their line back 2 prominent people, like to rasoolallah :saw: and sometimes ppl are saying "we are sayyids, and to marry we need the family to show us their family tree aswell as a proof of being sayyid"

[Salman Al-Farsi]

If one reads about the marriages of the Prophet (saw) and the background of his noble wives, it becomes quiet clear what he meant when he advised the Muslims to marry for taqwah, wealth, lineage etc.

[Medievalist]

Lineage is an important factor in nikah.

The Ulama should be consulted in this regard.

Abu Mus'ab has given a good introduction mashaALLAH.

The Ulama of Indo-Pak have written papers on which families are compatible with which and this is important to an extent.

The say Sayyid - Siddiqi, Farooqi, Gani and Alawi are compatible.

Chaudhry, Raja and Qurayshi are compatible

[Ibn Khattab]

Lineage is an important factor in nikah.

The Ulama should be consulted in this regard.

Abu Mus'ab has given a good introduction mashaALLAH.

The Ulama of Indo-Pak have written papers on which families are compatible with which and this is important to an extent.

The say Sayyid - Siddiqi, Farooqi, Gani and Alawi are compatible.

Chaudhry, Raja and Qurayshi are compatible

what about khans? who they compatible with?

[Ebony]

Compatible on what grounds? What the occupation of their fore-fathers were? :scratch: (Isn't that how/where the caste system thats prevalent in Pak/India comes from? Rai's only marry Rai's, Rajputs with Rajputs, Shaykhs with Shaykhs etc)

[Medievalist]

what about khans? who they compatible with?

I dont knw - dont you pathans have your own tribal rankings?

[Redmist]

I think with the lineage thing its best if you marry someone of similar family background to yours, so theres no problems with the familys getting on.

You dont wanna marry a too high lineage family when ur family isnt that high as this will cause problems!

[Al-Irhaab]

Lineage is an important factor in nikah.

The Ulama should be consulted in this regard.

Abu Mus'ab has given a good introduction mashaALLAH.

The Ulama of Indo-Pak have written papers on which families are compatible with which and this is important to an extent.

The say Sayyid - Siddiqi, Farooqi, Gani and Alawi are compatible.

Chaudhry, Raja and Qurayshi are compatible

this is soooooo outdated its unbelievable :smack:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

what about khans? who they compatible with?

they are compatible with Khanums. :rolleyes:

[Rie_Maya]

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

What about us Reverts then that probably have absolutely none of this lineage rubbish???

Isn't it about being Muslim that counts???

This sounds to me like yet another caste system on the go which I understood to be haram in Islam....

[Medievalist]

this is soooooo outdated its unbelievable :smack:

Silence is salvation.

1. The caste based lineage compatibility may not be applicable in UK - but these rules were always urfan anyway **roll eyes*8

2. But the blood-based lineage is still applicable. A Sayyida cannot run off and marry a Ghayr Sayyid - that is beneath her. for an example.

[Al-Irhaab]

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

What about us Reverts then that probably have absolutely none of this lineage rubbish???

Isn't it about being Muslim that counts???

This sounds to me like yet another caste system on the go which I understood to be haram in Islam....

the lineage system went out of the window so long ago... it was there for a specific reason and was never supposed to be the focus..... :rolleyes:

the prophet (saw) said a woman can be married for many reasons for her deen, he beauty, her wealth, her nobility.... marry for her deen and allah (SwT) will increase her in everything .... aw kama qala nabbiyuna (saw)

[Al-Irhaab]

Silence is salvation.

fatawa is for a time and place.... :rolleyes:

do u know who sheikh al hadith maulana bilal is married to?

[Salman Al-Farsi]

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

What about us Reverts then that probably have absolutely none of this lineage rubbish???

Isn't it about being Muslim that counts???

This sounds to me like yet another caste system on the go which I understood to be haram in Islam....

Please do ignore all this and the influence of hiduism which crept into Islam in the sub-continent during what I call the 'incorporation'.

The Prophet (saw) said the best of you are those who marry the ones with Taqwa (piety). :up:

[Medievalist]

fatawa is for a time and place.... :rolleyes:

do u know who sheikh al hadith maulana bilal is married to?

Its not important who the housepeople of Mawlan Bilal Sahib is :rolleyes:

No-one is saying that its an obligation to marry in your compatibility. According to us it was never an obligation to marry on a compatible level.

The only time it becomes a real issue is when the girl marries without her walee's consent and he is beneath her rank - then our Hanafi Ulama say the walee can break that nikah.

This applied then, it applies today.

If a Ghay Sayyid marries a Sayyida without her Walee's permission - then even in Birmingham the Walee can break that because she has married beneath herself and it is ba'is e sharam for the Sayyid family.

[Medievalist]

Please do ignore all this and the influence of hiduism which crept into Islam in the sub-continent during what I call the 'incorporation'.

The Prophet (saw) said the best of you are those who marry the ones with Taqwa (piety). :up:

**roll eyes**
Kafa'at was there before Islam even reached the sub-continent :coolbro:

[Abu Mus'ab]

this is soooooo outdated its unbelievable :smack:
Al-Irhaab a modernist? :rubeyes: *cough* yeah i know what you mean, which is why i never mentioned any of this before because i knew what it would evolve into.

[Ebony]

Its not important who the housepeople of Mawlan Bilal Sahib is :rolleyes:

No-one is saying that its an obligation to marry in your compatibility. According to us it was never an obligation to marry on a compatible level.

The only time it becomes a real issue is when the girl marries without her walee's consent and he is beneath her rank - then our Hanafi Ulama say the walee can break that nikah.

This applied then, it applies today.

If a Ghay Sayyid marries a Sayyida without her Walee's permission - then even in Birmingham the Walee can break that because she has married beneath herself and it is ba'is e sharam for the Sayyid family.

:scratch:

So is then lineage only an issue that can be used when a marriage that occurred w/o permission of the wali can be dissolved/broken? Purely on grounds of it being a besti? :scratch:

Because the rest of this compatibility lark, smells faintly of the caste system :-|

[peace2u]

How does being a sayyid make you above any other person? That only spreads racism/tribalism and fitnah amongst the muslim community.



Peace

[Al-Irhaab]

Al-Irhaab a modernist? :rubeyes: *cough* yeah i know what you mean, which is why i never mentioned any of this before because i knew what it would evolve into.

no one knows who their lineage is from now.... and the status that a lineage has is gone.... you cant say now so and so lineage has more status because the fact of the matter is no one cares no more... u can be descended from marasis and have more nobility in the eyes of people then if ur the grandsons of the mughals....

the only time id differ with this is if someone was descended from ahlul bayt which i can understand but even then ... these pakis claim to be ahlul bayt like no mans buisness....

[Al-Irhaab]

Its not important who the housepeople of Mawlan Bilal Sahib is :rolleyes:

No-one is saying that its an obligation to marry in your compatibility. According to us it was never an obligation to marry on a compatible level.

The only time it becomes a real issue is when the girl marries without her walee's consent and he is beneath her rank - then our Hanafi Ulama say the walee can break that nikah.

This applied then, it applies today.

If a Ghay Sayyid marries a Sayyida without her Walee's permission - then even in Birmingham the Walee can break that because she has married beneath herself and it is ba'is e sharam for the Sayyid family.

u can marry who u want in birmingham and there wont be no sharm because of his or her cast.... these rules and fatwa were made given to a certain reality... some of the ulema need to wake up and realise that... especially unfortunately those descended from the gujjerat side of al hind....

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Its not important who the housepeople of Mawlan Bilal Sahib is :rolleyes:

No-one is saying that its an obligation to marry in your compatibility. According to us it was never an obligation to marry on a compatible level.

The only time it becomes a real issue is when the girl marries without her walee's consent and he is beneath her rank - then our Hanafi Ulama say the walee can break that nikah.

This applied then, it applies today.

If a Ghay Sayyid marries a Sayyida without her Walee's permission - then even in Birmingham the Walee can break that because she has married beneath herself and it is ba'is e sharam for the Sayyid family.

lol @ ba'is e sharam :rolleyes:

unfortunately halal and haram is replaced with izzat ba'izti.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

How does being a sayyid make you above any other person? That only spreads racism/tribalism and fitnah amongst the muslim community.



Peace


it absolutely doesn't, not nowdays anyway.

[Ebony]

What about for the majority of those from the Indian subcontinent? Their lineage isn't completely Muslim, some of their ancestors were Sikh, Hindu, Parsee's and whatever else.

I sense some hindufication in this :nerdsis:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

**roll eyes**
Kafa'at was there before Islam even reached the sub-continent :coolbro:

Whats the shari' definition of Kafa'at and who defined it?

JazakAllahu khayr

[Niqaabi]

How does being a sayyid make you above any other person? That only spreads racism/tribalism and fitnah amongst the muslim community.



Peace
It doesnt sis, especially when these 'sayyids' are 'related to the prophet' :saw:
I think some people just use the whole lineage to show a bit of proudness "im better than you". Like this girl she was saying how "in a way im sorta bigger/better cos im related to the prophet" so i mentioned that Abu Talib was also related to the prophet :saw: but he's in the highest of hell.
funny thing is, her first name is sayyeda not even her last :rolleyes:

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams


Sis where have you read Abu Talib is in the highest of hell, please don't mind me asking this - it's the first i've come across something as strong as that statement.

Sometimes the past should be left as it is.

:wswrwb:

[Niqaabi]

Im talking about the prophet's uncle, on his death bed he did not take his shahadah so he will be sent to the highest of hell where the fire will touch his ankles but the hotness will reach his brain.
I'll find a hadeeth for you or something inshaAllah.

[Abu Mus'ab]

u can marry who u want in birmingham and there wont be no sharm because of his or her cast.... these rules and fatwa were made given to a certain reality... some of the ulema need to wake up and realise that... especially unfortunately those descended from the gujjerat side of al hind....
Bruv Imam abu hanifah rahimahullah wasn't from india, there are ahadith on kuff, though they're dhaeef they still exist.

[muslimah85]

Lineage is an important factor in nikah.

The Ulama should be consulted in this regard.

Abu Mus'ab has given a good introduction mashaALLAH.

The Ulama of Indo-Pak have written papers on which families are compatible with which and this is important to an extent.

The say Sayyid - Siddiqi, Farooqi, Gani and Alawi are compatible.

Chaudhry, Raja and Qurayshi are compatible
Pah. A practising muslim is compatible with another. Lineage is rubbish. Thats why problems occur :eek3:

[Abu Mus'ab]

Wouldn't this thread be better off in the muslim section?

[Medievalist]

Its obvious people have not understood.

Some accuse this fiqh of kafa'at to be hinduism, others to be outdated, others to think its pre-islamic.

To each their own.

If anyone cant see how a Sayyid has more noble lineage than a Ghay Sayyid then thats their minds tinkerings.

:salams

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Medievalist doesnt have access there, and I really would like answer to my question.

[Niqaabi]

:start:

:salams


Sis where have you read Abu Talib is in the highest of hell, please don't mind me asking this - it's the first i've come across something as strong as that statement.

Sometimes the past should be left as it is.

:wswrwb:
Narrated Al-Musaiyab:
When Abu Talib was in his death bed, the Prophet went to him while Abu Jahl was sitting beside him. The Prophet said, "O my uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah, an expression I will defend your case with, before Allah." Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Umaya said, "O Abu Talib! Will you leave the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib?" So they kept on saying this to him so that the last statement he said to them (before he died) was: "I am on the religion of 'Abdul Muttalib." Then the Prophet said, " I will keep on asking for Allah's Forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden to do so." Then the following Verse was revealed:--
"It is not fitting for the Prophet and the believers to ask Allah's Forgiveness for the pagans, even if they were their near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the (Hell) Fire." (9.113 (http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall&searchstring=9:113)) The other Verse was also revealed:-- "(O Prophet!) Verily, you guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He will ......." (28.56 (http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?version=pickthall&searchstring=28:56)) (Sahih Bukhari 5.223 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.223). also Sahih Bukhari 2.442 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/023.sbt.html#002.023.442), Sahih Bukhari 6.197 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.197), Sahih Bukhari 6.295 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.295))
Muhamamd claimed that Abu Talib is spared the bottom of Hell Fire because of him:
Narrated Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib: That he said to the Prophet "You have not been of any avail to your uncle (Abu Talib) (though) by Allah, he used to protect you and used to become angry on your behalf." The Prophet said, "He is in a shallow fire, and had It not been for me, he would have been in the bottom of the (Hell) Fire." (Sahih Bukhari 5.222 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.222). also Sahih Bukhari 8.227 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/073.sbt.html#008.073.227))
In another hadith, however, Muhammad was not so sure, but instead was only hoping that his intercession will allow Abu Talib to escape worst punishment:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That he heard the Prophet when somebody mentioned his uncle (i.e. Abu Talib), saying, "Perhaps my intercession will be helpful to him on the Day of Resurrection so that he may be put in a shallow fire reaching only up to his ankles. His brain will boil from it." (Sahih Bukhari 5.224 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.224). also Sahih Bukhari 8.569 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html#008.076.569))

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Its obvious people have not understood.

Some accuse this fiqh of kafa'at to be hinduism, others to be outdated, others to think its pre-islamic.

To each their own.

If anyone cant see how a Sayyid has more noble lineage than a Ghay Sayyid then thats their minds tinkerings.

:salams


This is what happens when superiority is given to 'scholars' over Quran and sunnah.. I am afraid, the 'Asl gets lost and what remains is taqleedism and call for ikhtilaf when there simply isnt one.

[Abu Mus'ab]

Medievalist doesnt have access there, and I really would like answer to my question.
Then give him access to there *Roll Eyes*

if you want i can scratch out my notes on kuff, it's the hanafi madhab, from the kitaab hidaayah, kitaabun nikaah, baabul awliyaah wal ikfaa.

To note they say "al kafaa mu3tabarun fin nikaah" kuff is considered in nikah, not al kafaa fardhun fin nikaah, or waajibun fin nikaah, or even sunnatun fin nikaah, they just say mu3tabarun, it is acceptable.

but if you want me to get all that for you then tell me, but on condition that you move this thread and give med access *Roll Eyes*

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I dont have previlege to give access.

[insomniac]

they are compatible with Khanums. :rolleyes:


:rotfl:

[Medievalist]

Fortunately we all do taqleed. Its only the uneducated who claim not to do taqleed whereas in reality without taqleed we would even be able to write our own names.

**roll eyes**

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Fortunately we all do taqleed. Its only the uneducated who claim not to do taqleed whereas in reality without taqleed we would even be able to write our own names.

**roll eyes**

but not to the point where it becomes ambigious and people can't understand if they are actually doing taqleed with Islam or something else.

besides, that does not answer my questions I have raised in this thread. Please do answer.

[Ibn Khattab]

I dont knw - dont you pathans have your own tribal rankings?

see this tribal rankings is what destroys an islamic marriage. its very cultural subhanallah, my tribe is higher than your so do this or ill tell our clan elders to beat up your clan elders.

look at the SahABAH R. Bilal R was a black abysinnian slave with no status whatsoever, and yet Islam gave him the title, The Caller Of Salah for the muslims.

he was higher in the eyes of Allah SWT than abu jahl, who was supposedly more higher in rank then Bilal.

what does this tell you, that this tribal rankings bakhwaas goes out the window cos people are judged by the levels of iman and taqwa that they have.

[Abu Mus'ab]

I dont have previlege to give access.
But you're an admin *Roll Eyes*

Alright this is the hadith in question, "qurayshu ba3dhuhum liba3dhin ikfaa batnan bi batnin, wal 3arbu ba3dhuhum liba3dhin ikfaa qabeelatun biqabeelatin, wal muwaali ba3dhuhum liba3dhin ikfaa rajulun birajulin" it's from Al Hakim

The other hadith concernig it is narrated by Ali bin urwah from ibn jareeh and this hadith is dhaeef, it is also narrated by uthmaan tarathani (sp?) and this too is dhaeef, and again it's narrated by ibn umar taken out from abu ya3la and ibn adi and it's weakness is muttafiqun ilayhi and it's taken from daaraqutni.

That's the ahadith that refers to it, it's not neded to copy the part from the kitaab itself because that is what i said in my first post, that ikfaa is considered in marriage.

[Medievalist]

I refer you to the muqallideen ulama.

Also Im at work so cant do anything in regards to finding references for you.

:o

Also any answers I can give is from the hanafi fiqh kitabs. If that is sufficient then good good - if not then I ask to be excused :)

[Abu Mus'ab]

see this tribal rankings is what destroys an islamic marriage. its very cultural subhanallah, my tribe is higher than your so do this or ill tell our clan elders to beat up your clan elders.

look at the SahABAH R. Bilal R was a black abysinnian slave with no status whatsoever, and yet Islam gave him the title, The Caller Of Salah for the muslims.

he was higher in the eyes of Allah SWT than abu jahl, who was supposedly more higher in rank then Bilal.

what does this tell you, that this tribal rankings bakhwaas goes out the window cos people are judged by the levels of iman and taqwa that they have.
You is good, the people that oppose ikfaa in nasab quote the part about hazrat bilaal radhiallahu ta'aala anhu when rasoolullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told him "قُلْ لَهُمْ إنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَأْمُرُكُمْ أَنْ تُزَوِّجُونِي" say to them that verily rasoolullah sallallahu alyhi wa sallam ordered that you marry me, and the daleel that we give in response that is what i quoted above " قُرَيْشٌ بَعْضُهُمْ أَكْفَاءٌ لِبَعْضٍ بَطْنٌ بِبَطْنٍ ، وَالْعَرَبُ بَعْضُهُمْ أَكْفَاءٌ لِبَعْضٍ قَبِيلَةٌ بِقَبِيلَةٍ وَالْمَوَالِي بَعْضُهُمْ أَكْفَاءٌ لِبَعْضٍ رَجُلٌ بِرَجُلٍ" that the quraysh are the kuff for the quraysh etc etc

And this is quoted in mabsoot of imam sarakhsi rahimahullah.

[Abu Mus'ab]

I refer you to the muqallideen ulama.

Also Im at work so cant do anything in regards to finding references for you.

:o

Also any answers I can give is from the hanafi fiqh kitabs. If that is sufficient then good good - if not then I ask to be excused :)
i already quoetd two hanafi fiqh kitaabs, mabsoot and hidaayah.

[MMS]

Lineage is an important factor in nikah.

The Ulama should be consulted in this regard.

Abu Mus'ab has given a good introduction mashaALLAH.

The Ulama of Indo-Pak have written papers on which families are compatible with which and this is important to an extent.

The say Sayyid - Siddiqi, Farooqi, Gani and Alawi are compatible.

Chaudhry, Raja and Qurayshi are compatible

lol to me they all filthy riffraff :outta:

[Medievalist]

i already quoetd two hanafi fiqh kitaabs, mabsoot and hidaayah.

yes hidaayah and there was another kitab aswell which I cant remember atm.

[Medievalist]

lol to me they all filthy riffraff :outta:

harsh.

I dont like raja either :p

[neelu]

2. But the blood-based lineage is still applicable. A Sayyida cannot run off and marry a Ghayr Sayyid - that is beneath her. for an example.:wacko:

:rotfl:

[Al-Irhaab]

Bruv Imam abu hanifah rahimahullah wasn't from india, there are ahadith on kuff, though they're dhaeef they still exist.

bro im not arguing with the hanafi ruling on marriage and the fatawa that were given... what im saying is that the fatawa were given due to the status quo at the time... where one lineage had status over another and one tribe had status over another.... whether that existed amongst the quraysh or amongst the people of india.... but today in the reality concerned ie uk this doesnt exist any more.... there is no difference between the casts or the tribes in terms of nobility....

[Al-Irhaab]

Fortunately we all do taqleed. Its only the uneducated who claim not to do taqleed whereas in reality without taqleed we would even be able to write our own names.

**roll eyes**

taqleed is done on the basis that the reality in which the original fatawa was given in is the same....

for some strange reason the some of the ulema in the uk claim to do taqleed then when it comes to issues which they find slightly controversial they start to avoid the kitaabs and make quotes from 'quran and sunnah' their taqleed seems to desert them when it comes to matters which are lets say not in their best interest...

its like when they negate all of the rulings of dar al harb from al-hidaya because all of a sudden its 'not applicable' :rolleyes:

[MMS]

harsh.

I dont like raja either :p

lolll :p :coolbro:

[muslimah85]

If a Ghay Sayyid marries a Sayyida without her Walee's permission - then even in Birmingham the Walee can break that because she has married beneath herself and it is ba'is e sharam for the Sayyid family.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

[muslimah85]

The only time it becomes a real issue is when the girl marries without her walee's consent and he is beneath her rank - then our Hanafi Ulama say the walee can break that nikah.
.

:rotfl:

[Medievalist]

there is no difference between the casts or the tribes in terms of nobility....

but you've already accepted that Ahlul Bayt have excellence over the rest.

If thats the case - then what doe you say if a Sayyida runs away with a Ghayr Sayyid in Birmingham - would you say that the father does not have right to annul that nikah?

What about in village in india? does it apply there?

[muslimah85]

I dont knw - dont you pathans have your own tribal rankings?
do you do standup comedy? :D

YES we all have lineage. Mine is pathan. My family have all married out of the lineage? Should they get a beating? or is their Nikah invalid. Bollocks.

Some of the stuff you say is utter nonsense. Its un-educated rubbish (in a nice way as possible :))

[Medievalist]

do you do standup comedy? :D

YES we all have lineage. Mine is pathan. My family have all married out of the lineage? Should they get a beating? or is their Nikah invalid. Bollocks.

Some of the stuff you say is utter nonsense. Its un-educated rubbish (in a nice way as possible :))

:salams

[muslimah85]

If thats the case - then what doe you say if a Sayyida runs away with a Ghayr Sayyid in Birmingham - would you say that the father does not have right to annul that nikah?


of course not. Was Bilal ra's lineage the same as the prophets? Would he have forbidden him from marrying from within his family? I think not.

The father has no say unless in terms of deen. The rest dosnt make a difference.

[Medievalist]

of course not. Was Bilal ra's lineage the same as the prophets? Would he have forbidden him from marrying from within his family? I think not.

The father has no say unless in terms of deen. The rest dosnt make a difference.

:salams

[muslimah85]

:salams
Mash'Allah shut you up didn't it? :)

[RashidD]

:wswrwb: Med...

[Niqaabi]

Mash'Allah shut you up didn't it? :)
:rotfl:
m85 your so bad :p
*mean girls theme* @)

[muslimah85]

:rotfl:
m85 your so bad :p
*mean girls theme* @)
:mujahida:

ignorant comments deserve to be shot down :D

[Al-Irhaab]

:mujahida:

Crap deserves to be shot down :D

u shld watch who u call crap i mean im sure he can start maligning u just as easy.... and what he says can actually be backed up by some evidence :rolleyes:

[muslimah85]

u shld watch who u call crap i mean im sure he can start maligning u just as easy.... and what he says can actually be backed up by some evidence :rolleyes:
rubbish in the sense of what he said not who he is .

Alot of people speak rubbish here ;D

PS : If he could back it up he would have ;) he had nothin to reply :)...Work it out for yourself :D

[Al-Irhaab]

crap in the sense of what he said not who he is .

Alot of people speak rubbish here ;D

PS : If he could back it up he would have ;) he had nothin to reply :)...Work it out for yourself :D

hes already backed it up with the hadith pasted by abu musab and the quotes from the book of fiqh.... i might disagree with his application but thats not to say that he doesnt have something to back it up....

and the reason why he went quiet is because he thought its better then wasting his time arguing with someone who doesnt understand fiqh or the rulings of fiqh.... and he actually said salam to u which u didnt bother replying to but thought of it as backing down :rolleyes:

[Niqaabi]

u shld watch who u call crap i mean im sure he can start maligning u just as easy.... and what he says can actually be backed up by some evidence :rolleyes:
Well im sure if he brings his evidence forward m85 will retract what she said, but even to me i find it strange a wali can break the marriage based on the guy being 'beneath her'.

[Abu Mus'ab]

Mash'Allah shut you up didn't it? :)
Not quite, he's doing what the ayah of the qur'an says "when the ignorant come to them they say (to the jaahils) salaam"

[muslimah85]

Well im sure if he brings his evidence forward m85 will retract what she said, but even to me i find it strange a wali can break the marriage based on the guy being 'beneath her'.
sis think about it. Thats all based in hinduism Astagfirrulah if yuu chose to marry another brother from another family and backward people pointed oput to him being inferior in status would you even bare to consider that or would you look at his deen?

Astagfirullah what he's saying is just soo wrong. Anyone can see that :(

[.: Anna :.]

inshaallah can we avoid making an argument out of it... the discussion was fine, we dont all need to agree but bringing in words like "crap" "nonsense" etc lowers the conversation a bit, so insha allah let's not :)

[muslimah85]

Not quite, he's doing what the ayah of the qur'an says "when the ignorant come to them they say (to the jaahils) salaam"
which he should apply to himself inshallah. His ignorance as to two believers marrying regardless of their caste/lieage is beyond anyones comprehension. That has no place in Islam.

Insh'Allah Allah will guide him :)

[Al-Irhaab]

Well im sure if he brings his evidence forward m85 will retract what she said, but even to me i find it strange a wali can break the marriage based on the guy being 'beneath her'.

sorry lets understand the fiqh ruling before finding it strange....

the actual ruling is that if a woman gets married WITHOUT the permission of the wali then the wali can break the nikah based on the fact that she is not competent to contract marriage without her guardian and save her from harm... one of the ways in which she can harm herself (according to the ulema of the past) is if she marries someone of lower lineage etc other ways are if his deen is mashed etc etc....

now according to the ulema YOU follow the marriage is fasad anyway its not valid....

and i think abu musab quoted some hadith before and some fiqh rulings from the books of ulema...

[Ibn Khattab]

can we have sajids opinion on this please?

edit: is it me or do i always kill off threads

[Unique Muslimah]

can we have sajids opinion on this please?

edit: is it me or do i always kill off threads
:rotfl:
Poor Ibn Khattab..

[Niqaabi]

Abu Musab said he got those rulings from a 'hanafi kitaab'. Now according to hanafi madhhab you dont need a wali to get married? So how would the wali break the nikkah if his permission isnt needed in the first place?

[Al-Irhaab]

Abu Musab said he got those rulings from a 'hanafi kitaab'. Now according to hanafi madhhab you dont need a wali to get married? So how would the wali break the nikkah if his permission isnt needed in the first place?

the wali is not part of the shuroot for nikah.... but if he deems the nikah to be detrimental to the daughter he has the ability to get a qadhi to revoke the nikah.... so yes u do need a wali to get married but if someone marrys without a wali then the marriage is still valid.... but thats not to say its permissible for someone to run off and get married without telling their dad :rolleyes:

[Eemaan]

sheesh, i dont have time to read 86 posts, got roti to eat.:(

someone want to wrap it up for me pls?

*belly rumbles*

[Niqaabi]

the wali is not part of the shuroot for nikah.... but if he deems the nikah to be detrimental to the daughter he has the ability to get a qadhi to revoke the nikah.... so yes u do need a wali to get married but if someone marrys without a wali then the marriage is still valid.... but thats not to say its permissible for someone to run off and get married without telling their dad :rolleyes:
If someone marries without a wali its valid, so if someone 'runs away' and gets married without a wali how is that different?
If the wali does not agree to the marriage can she get married or not? regardless of her 'running away'.

And i was actually thinking about this in the sense they only find out this 'lineage' business after they married, does the wali have the power to divorce them based on his lineage even though they both want to be married.

[Niqaabi]

sheesh, i dont have time to read 86 posts, got roti to eat.:(

someone want to wrap it up for me pls?

*belly rumbles*
ghay sayyid wants to marry sayyida but her dad wont let them so he's marrying khanum instead but khan wants to marry khanum but he's marrying a begum.
:confused:
@)

[Eemaan]

ghay sayyid wants to marry sayyida but her dad wont let them so he's marrying khanum instead but khan wants to marry khanum but he's marrying a begum.
:confused:
@)

thats so sad :crying2: poor sayyid

*buggers off*

[Abu Mus'ab]

which he should apply to himself inshallah. His ignorance as to two believers marrying regardless of their caste/lieage is beyond anyones comprehension. That has no place in Islam.

Insh'Allah Allah will guide him :)
You should refrain from speaking about things which you don't know about, what he's saying is backed up by hundreds of ulema.

Insh'Allah Allah will guide us all.

[Al-Irhaab]

If someone marries without a wali its valid, so if someone 'runs away' and gets married without a wali how is that different?
If the wali does not agree to the marriage can she get married or not? regardless of her 'running away'.

And i was actually thinking about this in the sense they only find out this 'lineage' business after they married, does the wali have the power to divorce them based on his lineage even though they both want to be married.

the two examples u gave are the same?

for your ulema if a woman gets married without her walis permission the nikah is not valid full stop....

for the hanafi ulema the woman gets married without her walis permission the nikah is valid.... so if they have consumated the marriage etc its not zina... however the wali can apply to the qadhi to have the nikah annulled if he believes it is detrimental to the girl.... one of these conditions that the uleama at the time in the reality they lived in stated was of lineage....

once the wali has agreed to the marriage and consented to it in front of witnesses etc etc he cannot ask for it to be revoked no... regardless of what he knew or did not know...

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Let's put this discussion in context just to avoid argumentation. Everyone should remember this discussion is taking place because we want to remove minconceptions in shape of general misunderstandings and juristic errors, and to learn some rules of fiqh.

To simply matters, some hanafi jurists hold the opinion that a virgin Muslimah can marry herself off (without wali's permission) as long as they are of the same status or equivalence in lineage. According to some jurists this does not complete the contract of marriage, rather makes it Fasid (void/incomplete) until the Wali approves even after marriage. On the contrary, according to the first view if she marries without wali's permission someone not of equivalence than the Wali has the right to break the marriage.

This view is NOT based on any evidences from Qur'an and Sunnah, the 'asl is most likely based on the hadith of Prophet (saw):bu Hurayrah (ra) reported that the Prophet said: ''A woman is married for four things: her wealth, lineage, beauty and Islamic character (Deen). So gain success with the one who possesses a good character (Deen)''. From this hadith, It is generaly preferred that she is of noble descent and lineage i.e. brought up in beneficence, Taqwa (God fearing) and distinction. But that does not mean they are stipulations for marriage, rather they are recommended and preferred. Otherwise, a man has the right to choose the wife he pleases and the woman has the right to choose the husband she pleases.

From the text from al-hidayah provided by Abu Mus'ab we have an agreement that equivalence is NOT a condition for marriage, a preference maybe. However its important to understand that the first opinion where actual discussion stems from has no Shari' basis. This opinion is actually Ijtihad bi al-ray based on Istihsan Istislah (a hanafi usul) which is to do with 'public interest' at the time of the ruling. Some later hanafi jurists who were not Mujtahideen but rather according to hanafi classification Ashab al-Tarjeeh they added some da'if and fabricated ahadith to support this Ijtihad which had become irrelevant due to absence of manat (reality). Any such evidence would be scrapped and not considered due to exsitence of nass against this opinion such as: Allah Azz wa jal saying: ''Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has more Taqwa'' [Al- Hujurat: 13]

Our Prophet Sayeduna Mohammed (saw) gave his cousin Zaynab bin Jahsh (ra), who was from the exalted people of the Quraish, in marriage to Zayd bin Haritha (ra) who was a freedman. Abdullah b. Burayda (ra) narrates on the authority of his father that a young girl came to the Messenger of Allah (saw) and said: ''My father married me off to his nephew in order to raise his lowly status''. So the Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage. She responded: ''I accept what my father has done, but I wanted to inform the (other) women that fathers do not have any authority to give their daughters in marriage against their wishes''. The meaning of her statement: 'in order to raise his lowly status' is that her father wanted to raise his nephew's social standing by marrying her to him. This means that the father gave her in marriage against her wish because she did not consider him suitable for her, not because she thought he was not a match for her, indeed he was her cousin but because she did not agree to the marriage.

Abu Hatim al-Muzani reports that the Messenger of Allah said: ''When someone whose character and morals are agreeable to you approaches you for marriage give your daughter to him in marriage. If you do not then there will be tribulation and immense corruption in the earth''. They said:'' Oh Messenger of Allah , even if he has some deficiency''?. He said: ''When someone comes whose character and morals are agreeable to you and approaches you for marriage, give your daughter to him in marriage''. He said this three times. Also Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated this hadith. His version reads: The Messenger of Allah said: ''When someone proposes for your daughter and his character and morals are agreeable to you, then give to him in marriage. If you do not there will be tribulation and immense corruption in the earth''. And this hadith has been narrated through other lines of transmission as well. Abu Hurayrah (ra) narrated that Abu Hind cupped the Prophet from the crown of his head (for treatment). The Prophet said: ''Oh sons of Bayadha, marry Abu Hind (one of your women) and seek a women for his marriage''.

Hanzala b. Abu Sufyan al-Jumahi (ra) narrates that his mother said: ''I saw the sister of Abdur-Rahman b. Awf as a wife to Bilal''. All of these evidences clearly show that matching between spouses has no consideration or value. Any woman who consents to a man becoming her husband, she can marry as she wishes, and any man that consents to a woman becoming his wife, he can marry without considering the issue of matching.

Furthermore, The stipulation of matching contradicts the saying of Sayeduna Mohammed (saw) : ''An Arab is not better than a non-Arab except in Taqwa (God fearing)''. And it contradicts the definite text of the Qur'an:

''Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is that (believer) who has more Taqwa'' [Al- Hujurat: 13]

InshaAllah, if anyone has any daleel in support of equivalence/matching, please do bring forward.

[Niqaabi]

Ok you said what i was thinking because you cant just change your mind like that when its something serious as marriage.

Now why is it that the wali can break the marriage but his permission isnt sought for the two to be married in the first place?
I can understand what your saying from a non-hanafi view but if a hanafi girl doesnt need her walis permission then how can he break the nikkah by just going to a qadhi?

[Abu Mus'ab]

Ok you said what i was thinking because you cant just change your mind like that when its something serious as marriage.

Now why is it that the wali can break the marriage but his permission isnt sought for the two to be married in the first place?
I can understand what your saying from a non-hanafi view but if a hanafi girl doesnt need her walis permission then how can he break the nikkah by just going to a qadhi?
Because not all the hanafi ulema say you don't need a wali.

Imam Muhammad rahimahullah says that you need the permission of the wali.

[Al-Irhaab]

Ok you said what i was thinking because you cant just change your mind like that when its something serious as marriage.

Now why is it that the wali can break the marriage but his permission isnt sought for the two to be married in the first place?
I can understand what your saying from a non-hanafi view but if a hanafi girl doesnt need her walis permission then how can he break the nikkah by just going to a qadhi?

the problem is ur not understanding the difference between the fact that the woman needs the permission of her wali to get married but if she does get married without his permission the marriage is still valid....

the wali has the right to ASK to break the nikah because it requires his permission in the first place... so because his permission was not got, he can judge if the marriage is suitable or not and if he deems it not suitable then he can ask for it to be annulled... thats not to say aswell that the qadhi will necessarily agree with him ...

[Salman Al-Farsi]

the problem is ur not understanding the difference between the fact that the woman needs the permission of her wali to get married but if she does get married without his permission the marriage is still valid....

the wali has the right to ASK to break the nikah because it requires his permission in the first place... so because his permission was not got, he can judge if the marriage is suitable or not and if he deems it not suitable then he can ask for it to be annulled... thats not to say aswell that the qadhi will necessarily agree with him ...

Just to add to that, if the father broke the wedding because the guy is not of the same lineage or lower than them, he would be exteremly sinful.

[Niqaabi]

the problem is ur not understanding the difference between the fact that the woman needs the permission of her wali to get married but if she does get married without his permission the marriage is still valid....

the wali has the right to ASK to break the nikah because it requires his permission in the first place... so because his permission was not got, he can judge if the marriage is suitable or not and if he deems it not suitable then he can ask for it to be annulled... thats not to say aswell that the qadhi will necessarily agree with him ...
Sorry if im being slow today got lots of work and loootsss on my mind but im still confused.

If a hanafi girl marries without her wali's permission its still valid but it is preferred for her to get his permission right? But she doesnt need it.
Now if this did happen, the wali can ASK for it to be annulled but if it isnt then the two can still stay married?
Or does the marriage become invliad after the wali asks? Cos this is what i cant understand.

[umar7]

salam alaykum

any of you smart guys willing to head over to my thread and answer my questions. it was kinda tied to this one. i asked it acuse of some confusion i got from thsi one. it's inthe learning about islam section.

titled "Ahlul Bayt"

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Sorry if im being slow today got lots of work and loootsss on my mind but im still confused.

If a hanafi girl marries without her wali's permission its still valid but it is preferred for her to get his permission right? But she doesnt need it.
Now if this did happen, the wali can ASK for it to be annulled but if it isnt then the two can still stay married?
Or does the marriage become invliad after the wali asks? Cos this is what i cant understand.

If she marries without wali's permission the nikah itself is fasid... according to some hanafi jurists she requires permission from wali.

I think it is important to understand what fasid means, its the technical term which cannot be translated accurately. Fasid is used in Islamic contract law, the nikah in islam is treated as a contract (similar to business contract) and therefore the word fasid is used. When having a fiqhi discussion or to understand opinions of the madhaib its important to use thier terminologies. Fasid means incomplete or irregular, in a business or trade contract, or voidable (not void). For example, if I buy 50 cd's from you for £10 and you offer me cd covers for free. But, at the time of exchange, you do not have covers for all 50 cd's. At this time the contract is valid because the subject of contract was me buying cds and paying you £10. However the contract is fasid until you deliever the rest of the covers. This means the cds are mine and £10 is yours but if you fail to deliever the rest of the covers, there is a dispute which can be taken to qadhi. On the other hand if you deliever rest of the covers.. the contract is now complete.

I hope this explains better, if you now apply the term fasid to hanafi marriage as discussed above.

[Niqaabi]

Yeh it does. So just so there isnt a misunderstanding.
The girl and guy gets married without wali, but later if wali says he agrees the marriage stays valid? Unless he says no only then it becomes fasid?

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Yeh it does. So just so there isnt a misunderstanding.
The girl and guy gets married without wali, but later if wali says he agrees the marriage stays valid? Unless he says no only then it becomes fasid?

According to this particular hanafi opinion, if a guy and girl get married without permission of wali, the marriage is valid but its fasid (voidable/incomplete) and remains valid but incomplete until the wali has approved. This is because permission of wali is not considered Rukn of Nikah contract by these hanafee jurists and nikah without this condition remains valid. According to other jurists nikah without permission of Wali is Batil (void) instead of Fasid (voidable).

[Niqaabi]

great jazakAllahu khair!

[neelu]

For this post, I have just one word to sum up my opinion of this lineage debate. It is....

JULAYBIB (RA)

[Cashew]

u shld watch who u call crap i mean im sure he can start maligning u just as easy.... and what he says can actually be backed up by some evidence :rolleyes:


Of course it can be backed up with evidence!

The Bhagavad Gita very clearly explains the wisdom and tradition behind Med's statements --

Gita Ch. 18, V.41:

"Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras,
O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities
born of their own nature."

If you'd like, I can bring more evidence from the Gita to support Med's claims. There's a lot to back him up!

By the way, lower-caste Muslims should listen to the Gita and stop whining and accept their karma with humility.

[Ibn Khattab]

Of course it can be backed up with evidence!

The Bhagavad Gita very clearly explains the wisdom and tradition behind Med's statements --

Gita Ch. 18, V.41:

"Of Brahmanas, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas, as also the Sudras,
O Arjuna, the duties are distributed according to the qualities
born of their own nature."

If you'd like, I can bring more evidence from the Gita to support Med's claims. There's a lot to back him up!

By the way, lower-caste Muslims should listen to the Gita and stop whining and accept their karma with humility.

eh :wacko: ? lower caste muslims? bruv u gone bonkers :rubeyes:

[Abu Mus'ab]

eh :wacko: ? lower caste muslims? bruv u gone bonkers :rubeyes:
Nah he's just gone nuts, cashew nuts *Roll Eyes*

[Cashew]

I was joking.


But I think that when Muslims behave as though the Gita were their holy book, then something odd must be going on.

I can show you more stuff from the Gita that justifies caste and explains how people can lead a virtuous life by performing the duties required of their caste.

Consider this:

In orthodox Hinduism, there's no place for anyone who wasn't born a Hindu. A non-Hindu, even if he or she practices Hinduism, is casteless, or ritually impure. A Hindu who marries a non-Hindu becomes casteless.

According to Med's caste-defined system for Muslim marriage, there's no place for a convert in Pakistani Islam, no matter how pious or devout.

[Ibn Khattab]

I was joking.


But I think that when Muslims behave as though the Gita were their holy book, then something odd must be going on.

I can show you more stuff from the Gita that justifies caste and explains how people can lead a virtuous life by performing the duties required of their caste.

Consider this:

In orthodox Hinduism, there's no place for anyone who wasn't born a Hindu. A non-Hindu, even if he or she practices Hinduism, is casteless, or ritually impure. A Hindu who marries a non-Hindu becomes casteless.

According to Med's caste-defined system for Muslim marriage, there's no place for a convert in Pakistani Islam, no matter how pious or devout.

truesay the bres got a point.

Cashew when are you going to do your shahadah inshallah?

[Al-Irhaab]

Just to add to that, if the father broke the wedding because the guy is not of the same lineage or lower than them, he would be exteremly sinful.

subhanallah what answer would a man give to allah (Swt) that he stopped his child marrying someone pious because they had lower status then him.... and even more he caused annulment of marriage because of this reason.... may allah (Swt) save us all from this disease....

[neelu]

subhanallah what answer would a man give to allah (Swt) that he stopped his child marrying someone pious because they had lower status then him.... and even more he caused annulment of marriage because of this reason.... may allah (Swt) save us all from this disease....

His answer would be that at least he didn't let his daughter "marry beneath her" :wacko:

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams


Regarding the Sayyid issue many people do not know about or even bother to read up yes even today there are still Sayyids or descendant’s of the Prophet Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him and his family and they have continued their line by marrying Sayyids.

The Syeds descend from Bibi Fatima’s side and through her children and until this day people produce family trees as proof that they are Sayyid.

One can choose whether they want to continue the line – have Sayyid children or marry a non Sayyid and not continue the line – the choice is theirs, yes sometimes there is peer pressure and disapproval but that happens with cross cultural marriages too.

Don’t get me wrong but it does seem irritating you have people spouting off oh yeah cross culture marriages are so inlove :inlove: but it’s interesting to see how many marry within their own community or even family.

It’s nice to marry a Muslim from different backgrounds but lets face it there are cultural differences that really put a strain on the marriage at times and different traditions and customs that seem daunting- only the brave truly risk it. Anyone who has married in a different culture will probably have experienced clashes, we live in an un-ideal world and sometimes we can’t take the pressure or risk or just go with their parents thinking.


It’s not a discussion people should take lightly as if marriage is this was massive joke (lol we’re getting wed blab la) – we might think of someone as suitable and if that’s the case talk to your parents how many times have I seen cross culture marriages go sour because people think they ‘own’ their lives- they plan everything – the meet ups, the talk – the whole lot except for the money for the wedding and then they get the parents involved in the final stage and the parents feel betrayed,

A marriage between two cultures such as Pakistani and Arab or gujerati may seem nice based on each other’s Eeman but most people like to make a show they’re doing something different like it’s oh so cool to marry someone like different :rolleyes:

There is a big differenced form thinking something and actually doing it. We all are aware of 'big talk'

:wswrwb:

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams


Amir ul Mumineen – Ali Ibn Abu Talib when he desired to marry he asked his brother Aqil who is a well known genealogist to ask him to search for a lady being the descendant of heroes so that she would give birth of a courageous, immaculate hero whose mission would be supporting his brother in Kerbala.


Aqil advised Imam Ali to propose to Umm-Ul-Banin from the tribe of Kelab because her fathers and people had been the foremost among others in fields of heroism and courage. Imam Ali agreed and Aqil went to ask the ladies father and ask her hand for Imam Ali.

Aqil was a well known genealogist and was a reference to whom people would submit in field of genealogy. He could discern the sources of glory, distinguish the Arab tribes and tell between the deep-rooted ones and the disreputable.

(I got this from a book titled ‘Al Abbas – peace be upon him’ by Badr Shahin :) Alhamdulillah it was quite interesting to read something like this :love:

:wswrwb:

[Zaid the Great]

Just to elaborate on the sayyid issue...

down in the peninsula we call the descendants of Hassan (ra) 'shareef' and the descendants of hussain (ra) 'sayyid'.

these titles have no islamic basis as far as im aware. :rolleyes:

[Freshie]

Freshie no like it this idea because freshie no marry it another freshie. :smack:
Freshie marry it good lineage sister with british passport :D :help:

:1peace:

[Zaid the Great]

Freshie no like it this idea because freshie no marry it another freshie. :smack:
Freshie marry it good lineage sister with british passport :D :help:

:1peace:

looooooool:D :D

[neelu]

Let's put this discussion in context just to avoid argumentation.
This view is NOT based on any evidences from Qur'an and Sunnah, the 'asl is most likely based on the hadith of Prophet (saw):bu Hurayrah (ra) reported that the Prophet said: ''A woman is married for four things: her wealth, lineage, beauty and Islamic character (Deen). So gain success with the one who possesses a good character (Deen)''. From this hadith, It is generaly preferred that she is of noble descent and lineage i.e. brought up in beneficence, Taqwa (God fearing) and distinction.


If these criterion are SO important that a father could use this as a reason to try and break up a marriage, then never mind lineage, can he use beauty as a reason and say his daughter should leave her husband cos' he's too ugly? Don't tell me that's absurd cos' it's no more a crazy assumption than most of the rest of this thread.

however the wali can apply to the qadhi to have the nikah annulled if he believes it is detrimental to the girl.... one of these conditions that the uleama at the time in the reality they lived in stated was of lineage..

[.: Anna :.]

A marriage between two cultures such as Pakistani and Arab or gujerati may seem nice based on each other’s Eeman but most people like to make a show they’re doing something different like it’s oh so cool to marry someone like different :rolleyes:

There is a big differenced form thinking something and actually doing it. We all are aware of 'big talk'

:wswrwb:
I dont think it is sensible to say that majority of people marry from other cultures because they think its "oh so cool" :S

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams

I dont think it is sensible to say that majority of people marry from other cultures because they think its "oh so cool" :S

It sometimes stems from internet - i know in this ideal world we wanna broaden our expectations and marry far out but that's not the case all the time is it habibti? Sometimes other pressure persuades us to back down as the culture divide is too great in our estimation.

Sweetness, i meant to say they don't actually get married- it's just a plan that sort of crumbles- if that makes sense :) you know kids online experimenting.

:wswrwb:

[Nasibah]

[QUOTE=Ibn Khattab;1789349]whats the importance of this when choosing a spouse?

i remember at a talk recently one of the sheikhs said its better to marry someone from a high lineage, like the Prophet S did.

[B]I don't know about "high" lineage, but its better to marry someone who comes from the a good family.

Lineage is important but his/her deen is the MOST important.

Insha-ALLAH this should give us some idea of what to look for when considering marriage.

There follows a description of the most important qualities which should be present in the man whom you choose or accept to be your husband and the father of your children, if Allaah decrees that you will have children.

Religious commitment. This is the most important thing to look for in the man you want to marry. The husband should be a Muslim who adheres to all the laws and teachings of Islam in his daily life. The woman’s guardian (wali) should strive to check out this matter and not rely only on outward appearances. One of the most important things to ask about is the man’s prayer (salaah); the one who neglects the rights of Allaah is more likely to neglect the rights of others. The true believer does not oppress or mistreat his wife; if he loves her, he honours her, and if he does not love her, he does not mistreat or humiliate her. It is very rare to find this attitude among those who are not sincere Muslims. Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings):

“and verily, a believing slave is better than a (free) Mushrik (idolater), even though he pleases you” [al-Baqarah 2:221]

“Verily, the most honourable of you with Allaah is that (believer) who has At-Taqwaa [i.e. he is one of the Muttaqoon (the pious)]” [al-Hujuraat 49:13]

“Good statements are for good people (or good women for good men) and good people for good statements (or good men for good women)” [al-Noor 24:26]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“If there comes to you one whose religious commitment and attitude pleases you, then marry [your female relative who is under your care] to him, for if you do not do that, there will be tribulation on earth and much corruption.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1084).

As well as being religiously committed, it is preferable that he should come from a good family and a known lineage. If two men come to propose marriage to one woman, and they are equal in terms of religious commitment, then preference should be given to the one who comes from a good family that is known for its adherence to the commands of Allaah, so long as the other person is not better than him in terms of religious commitment – because the righteousness of the husband’s close relatives could be passed on to his children and his good origins and lineage may make him refrain from many foolish and cheap actions. The righteousness of the father and grandfather are beneficial to the children and grandchildren. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord” [al-Kahf 18:82].

See how Allaah protected their father’s wealth for the two boys after the father died, as an honour to him because of his righteousness and taqwaa. By the same token, if the husband comes from a righteous family and his parents are good, Allaah will make things easy for him and protect him as an honour to his parents.

It is good if he has sufficient wealth to keep him and his family from having to ask people for anything, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Faatimah bint Qays (may Allaah be pleased with her), when she came to consult him about three men who had proposed marriage to her, “As for Mu’aawiyah, he is a poor man who has no wealth…” (Narrated by Muslim, 1480). It is not essential that he should be a businessman or rich, it is sufficient for him to have an income that will keep him and his family from having to ask people for anything. If there is a choice between a man who is religiously committed and a man who is wealthy, then the religious man should be given preference over the wealthy man.

It is preferable that he should be kind and gentle towards women, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Faatimah bint Qays, in the hadeeth quoted above, “As for Abu Jaham, his stick never leaves his shoulder”, referring to the fact that he used to beat women a lot.

It is good if he is sound of body and healthy, free of faults, sickness, etc., and not disabled or sterile.

It is preferable that he should have knowledge of the Qur’aan and Sunnah; if you find someone like this it is good, otherwise you should realize that this is something rare.

It is permissible for the woman to look at the man who comes to propose marriage, and for him to look at her. This should be in the presence of her mahram, and it is not permitted to look more than is necessary, or for him to see her alone, or for her to go out with him on her own, or to meet repeatedly for no reason.

According to Islam, the woman’s wali (guardian) should check on the man who proposes marriage to the woman who is under his guardianship; he should ask those whom he trusts among those who mix with him and who know him, about his commitment to Islam and his trustworthiness. He should ask them for an honest opinion and sincere, sound advice.

Before and during all of this, you must turn towards Allaah and pray to Him to make it easy for you and help you to make a good choice and to grant you wisdom. Then after all these efforts, when you have decided on a particular person, you should pray Istikhaarah, asking Allaah for that which is good. For more details on Salaat al-Istikhaarah, please see Question # 2217. Then after you have done your utmost, put your trust in Allaah, for He is the best of helpers, may He be glorified.

Adapted from Jaami’ Ahkaam al-Nisaa’ by Shaykh Mustafaa al-‘Adawi.

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Your sister in Islam
Nasibah.

[neelu]

A marriage between two cultures such as Pakistani and Arab or gujerati may seem nice based on each other’s Eeman but most people like to make a show they’re doing something different like it’s oh so cool to marry someone like different :rolleyes:

But I think it IS cool!;)

[Ibn Khattab]

man marriage is just way too cool,
anyone who dont think so is a fool.
Interacial marriages is the way forward,
coz at the moment its just awkward.

[Cashew]

There are times in this forum when it seems that there are Muslms who believe that the message of the Prophet (pbuh) is really nothing more and nothing less than, "How to Create Your Own Perfect Little Rural Pakistani Village No Matter Where You Are in the World!"