Shirk

[Ahl al-Kitab]

What is shirk? What does it mean to attribute partners to Allah? I believe that God is a Trinity, would you say that I am guilty of shirk then?

*Side note* I notice that the Qur'an views the Christian Trinity as being God the Father, Jesus the Son and Mary the Mother....At no time in Church history was this belief around, why would the Qur'an have this?

(Should I put this in the comparitive religion section?)

[jamila]

Originally posted by Ahl al-Kitab
What is shirk? What does it mean to attribute partners to Allah? I believe that God is a Trinity, would you say that I am guilty of shirk then?

*Side note* I notice that the Qur'an views the Christian Trinity as being God the Father, Jesus the Son and Mary the Mother....At no time in Church history was this belief around, why would the Qur'an have this?

(Should I put this in the comparitive religion section?)

Yes it does. In fact, at the time of the prophet, the protestant sects had not been formed - though the germs were there. And the two major Mary worshipping sects, Roman Catholocism and Byzantine Orthodoxy, still comprise the majority of Christians (nearly 80%, as far as I am aware. It refers to Christian shirk as taking the son of Maryam to be the son of God. It also warns you not to make God a Trinity. And it tells you not to revere Mary and Jesus as gods beside Allah. If you know anything about the majority of Chrisendom, which comprises of a billion Catholics and a significantly large number of orthodox Christians, you'd know the worship of Mary in practice, and saints as a sideline, is one of the major constituents of these two faiths. Give me ten minutes or so, and I'll dig up the references to trinity and the worship of Mary in the Qur'an with it's commentary.

Oh yes. And the answer to your question is, if you believe God is a Trinity, then you are committing shirk.

Jamila :)

[jamila]

Concerning the holy spirit. Allah says that it supported all the prophets. But what is it? Muslims understand it to be the leader of the Angels, who is entrusted with revelation, and the main one entrusted is Gabriel. However, Allah mentions Harut, Marut and Michael as carriers also, though not of "the message".

Here are some verses concerning the holy spirit.

17.85. They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: "The Spirit is off the command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
17.86. If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration: then wouldst thou find none to plead thy affair in that matter as against Us,-
17.87. Except for Mercy from thy Lord: for His Bounty is to thee (indeed) great.

16.102. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

26.192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:
26.193. With it came down the Truthful Spirit -
26.194. To thy heart, that thou mayest admonish.

Jamila :)

[jamila]

Here are the tafsir concerning trinity, worshipping Mary and Jesus beside Allah, and the Ruh (Holy Spirit):

to al maida
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=14362

to al nissa
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12951
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12973
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=13003
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=13019
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=13035

to al isra, 82-89
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=29571
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=29589
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=29594
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=17&tid=29598

to al nahl, 102
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=16&tid=28221

to al shuaib, 192-194
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=26&tid=37830

Jamila :)

[Ahl al-Kitab]

Concerning Mary...

But professing Christians in the past and present have never claimed (no matter how their practice seems to deny that) that Mary was deity. Mary has never in all of church history been viewed as part of the Trinity. The catholics and the like would never profess to worship Mary, they simply revere her. On top of that, no true Christian holds Mary above any of the other godly people in the Scriptures. Why would the Qur'an say that the Christians worshipped Mary? It's never happend. In fact, the exaltation of Mary didn't happen until well after the Qur'an was written...

[jamila]

Mary

http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/~tttbbs/EPN-2/Articles/Articles-Romn/marywor1.html

http://www.answering-christianity.com/worship_mary.htm

[Ahl al-Kitab]

I know that many people who claim to be Christian venerate Mary. But still, they (and no one else) have never ever in all of church history put Mary in the Trinity. There is no one who would put Mary in the Trinity. My question is not why has the Qur'an claimed that Mary is exhalted to godhood (which sadly some people have done) my question is why does the Qur'an say that Christians put Mary in the Trinity. Ask any person claiming to be Christian about the Trinity, not one will say that Mary is the third member.

[jamila]

Originally posted by Ahl al-Kitab
I know that many people who claim to be Christian venerate Mary. But still, they (and no one else) have never ever in all of church history put Mary in the Trinity. There is no one who would put Mary in the Trinity. My question is not why has the Qur'an claimed that Mary is exhalted to godhood (which sadly some people have done) my question is why does the Qur'an say that Christians put Mary in the Trinity. Ask any person claiming to be Christian about the Trinity, not one will say that Mary is the third member.

Tell me, as a Christian, do you ever pray to the holy spirit.

:rolleyes:"Hail, Holy Spirit, full of peace and knowledge, blessed is your name. Oh, holy spirit, open my heart and loose my tongue ... etc.":rolleyes:

I'd bet you'd feel foolish doing so, wouldn't you. Why? because the spirit is a poor excuse for a deity. At the beck and call of the father and the son, but together with the father and the son is adored and glorified?! My, oh my! Indeed you glorified him above his station, making a slave of Allah (and his prophet, Eisa) a third 'person' of Godhead. Christians confuse themselves over the issue.

In fact, before Trinity was formally adopted as a doctrine, Christianity was split into two schools of thought. The first was unitarian, which recognised Eisa as the created son of God, his special prophet. The second as the born son of God, one in deity with him. A Third school, also unitarian, saw Jesus as God incarnate - the vessel into which God emptied himself, the only God. No room for the deity of the Spirit, who was manifestly a sent message of God that alighted in the mind and heart and opened the believer to revelation.

Then shrines to Mary were added to the Eisa orientated places of worship that played lipservice to the father but relished the cult of the Son. She, especially revered because she was both Wife to the Father, and Mother to the Son. Both the Consort and Mother of God. The trinitarian practice was now in place, but the trinitarian theory was at odds because the practice was so clearly idolitarous.

So who are the three worshipped? What is the 'real' trinity worshipped. Not "the Holy Spirit, The Son and The Father". But Mary, Consort of the Father and Mother of The Son and those entities that she defined the Son and Father, the latter being the third of three.

Now you explain how you worship trinity, especially how you practically worship the Holy Spirit. Perhaps my analysis is totally wrong. :)

Jamila :)