Pakistani Wedding Rasams...

[Lu'Lu]

What do you think of them?

What do you know of them?

Which ones would you say are definitely haraam/bidah?

I'm asking because there is a great deal of fuss made over this in traditional pakistani weddings and there is only so much you can call it bidah. For example, the 'dood pilai' rasam of drinking milk from the same cup is from the sunnah, except the cup is decorated with tacky velvet and gold and the couple have to drink from it in full public view of the guests (even if it is segregated). :S

So do you call it bidah or what? Bearing in mind that paki weddings are mainly for everyone else rather than the bride and groom so whatever they say doesnt really go...and people are likely to get offended if you dont do as they say.

:confused:

[S@Z]

IMO
>
do away with all the rasam apart from the Nikah ceremony and a Wedding reception....


So do you call it bidah or what? Bearing in mind that paki weddings are mainly for everyone else rather than the bride and groom so whatever they say doesnt really go...and people are likely to get offended if you dont do as they say.anything that is not proven by the Qur'an, Ahadeeth and Sunnah classifies as bid'ah (correct me if am wrong, someone)

look at it this way ukht > when you follow the truth, you endure pain and criticism and what not but Alhamdulillah all that endurance becomes a blessing in disguise later on :)

reason out with people that are related to the matter at hand > tell them of what is and is not 'required'

inshaAllah it won't be that difficult...:up:

[ibn suleman]

whats a rasam?

[.: Anna :.]

i guess this means customs?
i dnt really know wat customs u lot have? so do u wnt 2 give more examples? if u cn try 2 placate ur family by doing the stuff which is not wrong like drinking the milk, n other things which they want then mayb u can persuade them 2 drop the more objectionable customs?

[Lu'Lu]

IMO
>
do away with all the rasam apart from the Nikah ceremony and a Wedding reception....

anything that is not proven by the Qur'an, Ahadeeth and Sunnah classifies as bid'ah (correct me if am wrong, someone)

look at it this way ukht > when you follow the truth, you endure pain and criticism and what not but Alhamdulillah all that endurance becomes worthwhile later on :)

reason out with people that are related to the matter at hand > tell them of what is and is not 'required'

inshaAllah it won't be that difficult...:up:

Jzk for ur response. I personally hate it all...but seriously people, esp mothers in law can get really offended and basically..your future as a daughter in law is doomed! Thats why i wanna know if there is some stuff that is definitely against Islam. Because..bidah is an innovation in the religion..so even if they do give it to u in a tacky cup, is that a bidah? Because it did not really state what kind of cup the Prophet (SAW) drank from, so would it matter.


Reasoning is ok with some people, not with others! Trust me...

[S@Z]

whats a rasam?
like a ritual... :scratch:

those 'customs' you have at pakistani weddings, like - mehndi, maayo/haldi (that yellow-goo function), etc.

[Lu'Lu]

i guess this means customs?
i dnt really know wat customs u lot have? so do u wnt 2 give more examples? if u cn try 2 placate ur family by doing the stuff which is not wrong like drinking the milk, n other things which they want then mayb u can persuade them 2 drop the more objectionable customs?

Yes sorry, rasams means customs. I think you're right in that regard..

But for example, theres this really stupid one where they put a mirror in between the bride and groom and make them look into it so thats the first time they can see each other!! I mean :rofl1: If that happened to me I would probably lose all my shyness and burst out laughing and so they would probably hate me even more!

But then..thats a cultural thing..so I cant really say doing that is against islam..i would just be arguing for it being a dumb and ridiculous thing to do which i could NEVER take seriously.

Hate paki culture :(

[S@Z]

Jzk for ur response. I personally hate it all...but seriously people, esp mothers in law can get really offended and basically..your future as a daughter in law is doomed! Thats why i wanna know if there is some stuff that is definitely against Islam. Because..bidah is an innovation in the religion..so even if they do give it to u in a tacky cup, is that a bidah? Because it did not really state what kind of cup the Prophet (SAW) drank from, so would it matter.


Reasoning is ok with some people, not with others! Trust me...ukht - i'll get back to this later inshaAllah (if someone hasn't already by then.. :) )

am very tired and sleepy and sick :(

take care :up:

[.: Anna :.]

i dont think the cup being tacky makes it a bidah, its jst the cup design :s

[ibn suleman]

how abt the slipper nicking thing...

i mean y wud the groom pay for em back :scratch:

just walk barefoot or buy new ones :D

[*asiya*]

seriously if they hung out in a hindu temple at a wedding they would never do any of that stuff again insha Allah. From the hindu dresses to the hindu thrones they sit on etc etc here let me just show u this it says it all...see if u can spot the hindu deitys and the muslim bride and groom....


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAD26H24.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCANVR0RW.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCACD7416.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAWKJ5S6.jpg

and for anyone who wants to tell you sister but its only my culture,tell them no its not, its hindu culture and religious tradition for more than 2000 years and the hindus have the books and paintings to proove it

[Abbas786]

seriously if they hung out in a hindu temple at a wedding they would never do any of that stuff again insha Allah. From the hindu dresses to the hindu thrones they sit on etc etc here let me just show u this it says it all...see if u can spot the hindu deitys and the muslim bride and groom....


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAD26H24.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCANVR0RW.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCACD7416.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAWKJ5S6.jpg

and for anyone who wants to tell you sister but its only my culture,tell them no its not, its hindu culture and religious tradition for more than 2000 years and the hindus have the books and paintings to proove it

Damn, point made. I never thought of it that way :S

[ur_yusra]

seriously if they hung out in a hindu temple at a wedding they would never do any of that stuff again insha Allah. From the hindu dresses to the hindu thrones they sit on etc etc here let me just show u this it says it all...see if u can spot the hindu deitys and the muslim bride and groom....


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAD26H24.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCANVR0RW.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCACD7416.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAWKJ5S6.jpg

and for anyone who wants to tell you sister but its only my culture,tell them no its not, its hindu culture and religious tradition for more than 2000 years and the hindus have the books and paintings to proove it

Now you now why I wanna wear black :S

[Emelianenko]

Paki wedding rasams = Hindu culture. Khalas.

[Ceren]

seriously if they hung out in a hindu temple at a wedding they would never do any of that stuff again insha Allah. From the hindu dresses to the hindu thrones they sit on etc etc here let me just show u this it says it all...see if u can spot the hindu deitys and the muslim bride and groom....


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAD26H24.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCANVR0RW.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCACD7416.jpg http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l126/asiya_02/imagesCAWKJ5S6.jpg

and for anyone who wants to tell you sister but its only my culture,tell them no its not, its hindu culture and religious tradition for more than 2000 years and the hindus have the books and paintings to proove it


The In dian culture was there BEFORE the advent of Islam.
The Arabic culture was there BEFORE the advent of Islam.

The prophet kept many of the cultural stuff that was done in the pre-Islamic era that was not against the teachings of Islam. So anything that is from the Indian culture that was done before the advent of Islam and is not against Islam shouldn't be prohibited, unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals.

For eg.... If I want to have a wedding and I think that Christian "hosts" (that's how they're called right?) look cool and I want people to stand and eat that thing, then I'm OOBVIOUSLY imitating Christians and that shouldn't be allowed.

We can either reject our culture... or "Islamize" it!!!

I wish people would read from classical scholars (as opposed to this new salafis) what is meant by the hadith of "whoever imitates a people....", and how they applied it to derive rulings.

And Allah knows best.

[Fais]

But for example, theres this really stupid one where they put a mirror in between the bride and groom and make them look into it so thats the first time they can see each other!! I mean :rofl1:

:rotfl: ... Pakis crack me up .. Wait .. :0: .. Im a paki too :crying: .


And they have thats thing where the groom (before the wedding day) has to step on some plates. Basically smash them ...

When my bro was getting married last year they told him to do it .. and he said "No" :rotfl: .. and everyone was looking at him like :eek3: ... :rotfl: ... I was just laughing .. funny people.

BTW the plate smashing thing im talking about comes from the Hindus ... its a relegious thing for them ... Smash your past type of thing :0: and the start of a new life or something like that.

[Fais]

how abt the slipper nicking thing...

i mean y wud the groom pay for em back :scratch:

just walk barefoot or buy new ones :D

lol that happen to my other bro (who got married in the u.k) .. and he said its ok .. you can keep the slipper :rotfl: ... And they was like :0: ...

But then my dad paid for it :smack:

[Al Qadr]

Rasam = tradition?

Ohhh, I think all of em are :torture: or most.
U know when they have that decorated lota n put milk in it n wave it above groom or brides head :eek3: and like when they have candles on the mehndi and all the girls have to walk with the bride 2 b ^o) Hmmm, lots of fings

[Fais]

Rasam = tradition?

Ohhh, I think all of em are :torture: or most.
U know when they have that decorated lota n put milk in it n wave it above groom or brides head :eek3: and like when they have candles on the mehndi and all the girls have to walk with the bride 2 b ^o) Hmmm, lots of fings

LOL .. Yea i know what you talking about ...

[Medievalist]

They've got loads.

New functions they have like mehndi and mayaan and all that are not from our deen but purely and simply from hindu culture.

Then they have the thing where 7 married ladies bring water for the groom to bathe in and he has to cough up money for em.

Then after they married they pass a lota over the head of the bride and try to drink from it and he has to try and stop em.

Then when the sisters do sehrabandi they have to be paid.

Then they have the kusraa who comes and dances for evry1.

Then at rukhsati they hold the Quran over her head.

Then they throw rice back over the head :eek3:

Then when she gets to her -inlaws she sits and reads Quran and then they stuff notes inside the Quran.

Then they take cheezy fotos.

Then the devar sits on her lap and wont move till he gets paid.

Also the grooms saliyan knick his shoes and wont give em til he has coughed up and also the dulhans friends and sisters wont let the dulha into the house until he coughs up, then they wopnt let him sit til he has coughed up.


There are LOADS of rubbishy things in the paki wedding, ALLAH ke fazl se I didnt have most of it. Have to be firm and say no - in the end they have t listen innit.

[Sulaiman Harun]

What do you think of them?

What do you know of them?

Which ones would you say are definitely haraam/bidah?

I'm asking because there is a great deal of fuss made over this in traditional pakistani weddings and there is only so much you can call it bidah. For example, the 'dood pilai' rasam of drinking milk from the same cup is from the sunnah, except the cup is decorated with tacky velvet and gold and the couple have to drink from it in full public view of the guests (even if it is segregated). :S

So do you call it bidah or what? Bearing in mind that paki weddings are mainly for everyone else rather than the bride and groom so whatever they say doesnt really go...and people are likely to get offended if you dont do as they say.

:confused:

Well the mehndi and mayuun rasams are hindu rasams so they are definitely bida'h. Secondly, so much extra money is spent on pakistani weddings which is israaf and this is also haram. Even barat, I think, is a hindu rasam.

[Ebony]

Whats the significance behind the mehndi customs in the Hindu faith? Anyone know?

[Sulaiman Harun]

Not me!!!

[Noor]

on a personal level... I think mehndi parties between sisters are nice thing to do, its just a get together for the bride to have a last time with her friends etc without being married.

And as for the wedding, I think hiding shoes and milk thingie are okay.. sort of like fun and games as long as they don't get outta hand where the groom's sis-in-law demands unreasonable amnt of money.

[Lu'Lu]

Rasam = tradition?

Ohhh, I think all of em are :torture: or most.
U know when they have that decorated lota n put milk in it n wave it above groom or brides head :eek3: and like when they have candles on the mehndi and all the girls have to walk with the bride 2 b ^o) Hmmm, lots of fings

LOL a lota..how lovely...(talking of lotas I once saw a lota in pakistan that had good luck written on the bottom of it.. good luck for what exactly?!!) :wacko:

Anyway yea I get what everyone is saying, but then hindu culture may not necessarily be hindu culture, its indian culture, and pakistan was originally part of india so thats our culture. Do u get me? So things like wearing red etc, is part of our culture, its when you do dodgy things like waving the money round the head thats from the hindus. Its just that, you dont know wear to draw the line.

I know of someone who asked Sh. Haytham al Haddad about a few paki customs and he said that as it is from your culture..its allowed. In the same way for Arabs who wear white, thats from the arab culture and not necessarily an imitation of kuffar.

(but LOL sis Asiya at the pics....could make anyone feel gutted for dressing like that!!! )

[Lu'Lu]

:rotfl: ... Pakis crack me up .. Wait .. :0: .. Im a paki too :crying: .


And they have thats thing where the groom (before the wedding day) has to step on some plates. Basically smash them ...

When my bro was getting married last year they told him to do it .. and he said "No" :rotfl: .. and everyone was looking at him like :eek3: ... :rotfl: ... I was just laughing .. funny people.

BTW the plate smashing thing im talking about comes from the Hindus ... its a relegious thing for them ... Smash your past type of thing :0: and the start of a new life or something like that.

I've also seen in a wedding film where they make the bride and groom grab hold of a kaali murghi (a black chicken) as sooon as they enter the home for good luck. Not only is that a form a of shirk..but man..imagine having to hold that dodgy animal in your wedding clothes and all

LOL and in the film, the dulha was proper scared he had to be forced to hold it! :rotfl:

[Sulaiman Harun]

They also tell brides to throw chawal (rice) backward on people like hindus!!!

[*asiya*]

Whats the significance behind the mehndi customs in the Hindu faith? Anyone know? As in hinduism the wife is considered like a housekeeper and the property of her husband, the mehndi put on her before the wedding means that she doesnt have to take up her duties as the new housekeeper for her husband, and the servant of his mother and father until the mehndi has worn off her hands and feet so its a respite for a new bride so she can be "available" to her husband soley, and not his parents and family at the start of the marriage, once the mehndi has worn off her skin then she has to resume the household duties.


The In dian culture was there BEFORE the advent of Islam.
The Arabic culture was there BEFORE the advent of Islam.

The prophet kept many of the cultural stuff that was done in the pre-Islamic era that was not against the teachings of Islam. So anything that is from the Indian culture that was done before the advent of Islam and is not against Islam shouldn't be prohibited, unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals.

For eg.... If I want to have a wedding and I think that Christian "hosts" (that's how they're called right?) look cool and I want people to stand and eat that thing, then I'm OOBVIOUSLY imitating Christians and that shouldn't be allowed.

We can either reject our culture... or "Islamize" it!!!

I wish people would read from classical scholars (as opposed to this new salafis) what is meant by the hadith of "whoever imitates a people....", and how they applied it to derive rulings.

And Allah knows best.

ceren you may be interested to know that before i became a muslim Alhamdulillah ( and i am a muslim and not a "salafi" and i do not appreciate you throwing this label around as some kind of insult, everytime i say something you and your shaikh al Qaradawi disagree with, i have studied the works of the classical scolars and take my knowledge from ibn taymiyyah, ibn Qayyim al jawziyyah, the 4 imams, ibn kathir and so on)

I taught the hindu belief system according to the vaishnavas, i studied for more than seven years the vedas, including srimad bagavatam, the bahgavad gita, and the upanishads, and I also learn sandscrit, so i am not speaking without knowlede.

It is a fact that these wedding traditions adopted by many asian muslims, are purely hindu Religious ceremonies, they are not merely "culture" they are part of the religious ceremonies, as the hindus like to carry out and immitate what they call "the past-times" of their gods, krishna, radharahni, rama, sita, and so on. So these practices are purely immitating the Religious ceremonies of the hindus.

[paki-pwincess]

[QUOTE=Medievalist;1612159]They've got loads.

Then they have the kusraa who comes and dances for evry1.


just curious are kusray transexuals or are they just like drag queeens that dress up?

[Fais]

just curious are kusray transexuals or are they just like drag queeens that dress up?

A bit of both. Sometimes 1 and sometimes the other.

[Lu'Lu]

I taught the hindu belief system according to the vaishnavas, i studied for more than seven years the vedas, including srimad bagavatam, the bahgavad gita, and the upanishads, and I also learn sandscrit, so i am not speaking without knowlede.

It is a fact that these wedding traditions adopted by many asian muslims, are purely hindu Religious ceremonies, they are not merely "culture" they are part of the religious ceremonies, as the hindus like to carry out and immitate what they call "the past-times" of their gods, krishna, radharahni, rama, sita, and so on. So these practices are purely immitating the Religious ceremonies of the hindus.

SUbhanaAllah sis!!! Tell me more! I was just going to post up asking if there was anyone like a hindu revert who could shed more light on it.

I need to know solid facts so I can hand them over when the need arises!

What do you know about:

Sehra bandi ( the tying of that awful long veil over the groom's face)

Dood pilai (do hindus do it too or it is from the sunnah?)

Doing the money around the head, and all of the other rasams like putting a leaf on girl's hand and putting mehndi on it and yellow stuff on her face.

Surely putting mehndi/henna on is ok? So as long as there is none of the whole fading of mehndi business and so the houswork commences ( in which case why doesnt the girl just keep going over it so that i stays dark? :p

And wearing red? What if you want to wear red just..and not because of culture..would that still be ok?

[Lu'Lu]

[QUOTE=Medievalist;1612159]They've got loads.

Then they have the kusraa who comes and dances for evry1.


just curious are kusray transexuals or are they just like drag queeens that dress up?

Kusray were not born like that...they are bought and 'sold' to provide entertainment and beg for money. They are forcefully operated on which is why they develop the physical characteristics that they do. I read an article about it. Because I always used to think how sad it is that all these poor pakistanis are born like that (stupid I know but thats what we were taught as kids), but thats not the case.

And yeh they are a bit of both...

[heaven2002]

if you want to avoid all the cultural custom stuff then have a really small function with just bride and grooms immediate family and mates and in advance get ur dad to chat to grroms dad and say that ur family aint into cultural hoo-haa and that u want to keep it as simle as posssible to keep it as sunnah as possible. get ur dad to lay the law down! thats what dads are for.

[Ceren]

ceren you may be interested to know that before i became a muslim Alhamdulillah ( and i am a muslim and not a "salafi" and i do not appreciate you throwing this label around as some kind of insult, everytime i say something you and your shaikh al Qaradawi disagree with, i have studied the works of the classical scolars and take my knowledge from ibn taymiyyah, ibn Qayyim al jawziyyah, the 4 imams, ibn kathir and so on)

I taught the hindu belief system according to the vaishnavas, i studied for more than seven years the vedas, including srimad bagavatam, the bahgavad gita, and the upanishads, and I also learn sandscrit, so i am not speaking without knowlede.

It is a fact that these wedding traditions adopted by many asian muslims, are purely hindu Religious ceremonies, they are not merely "culture" they are part of the religious ceremonies, as the hindus like to carry out and immitate what they call "the past-times" of their gods, krishna, radharahni, rama, sita, and so on. So these practices are purely immitating the Religious ceremonies of the hindus.

:salams

I didn't call you a salafi but what I said is that most of the the things I read against "cultural" stuff is from modern scholars.
Please find me a classic hanafi text where cultural customs such as rasams are said to be forbidden.

[Na'eemah]

Hmm Pakistanis do copy Hindu/Sikh traditions. I think part of the reason is because Pakistan and India were one country and they mix and match the traditions by what everyone else in the society did and they havent quite let go of it =S
Maybe some of the reverts kept the Hindu traditions :confused:

[.: Anna :.]

They've got loads.

New functions they have like mehndi and mayaan and all that are not from our deen but purely and simply from hindu culture.

Then they have the thing where 7 married ladies bring water for the groom to bathe in and he has to cough up money for em.

Then after they married they pass a lota over the head of the bride and try to drink from it and he has to try and stop em.

Then when the sisters do sehrabandi they have to be paid.

Then they have the kusraa who comes and dances for evry1.

Then at rukhsati they hold the Quran over her head.

Then they throw rice back over the head :eek3:

Then when she gets to her -inlaws she sits and reads Quran and then they stuff notes inside the Quran.

Then they take cheezy fotos.

Then the devar sits on her lap and wont move till he gets paid.

Also the grooms saliyan knick his shoes and wont give em til he has coughed up and also the dulhans friends and sisters wont let the dulha into the house until he coughs up, then they wopnt let him sit til he has coughed up.


There are LOADS of rubbishy things in the paki wedding, ALLAH ke fazl se I didnt have most of it. Have to be firm and say no - in the end they have t listen innit.

so many of them traditions are like forcing money from the groom or something :s i find it a bit wrong as these ppl are jst get married n he is gna need his money 2 support his wife and family n mayb he needs it for a deposit for a rent or someting, yet ppl come and charge him money to sit down and to have his shoe back?! thats soooo :rolleyes:
:S

[*asiya*]

SUbhanaAllah sis!!! Tell me more! I was just going to post up asking if there was anyone like a hindu revert who could shed more light on it.

I need to know solid facts so I can hand them over when the need arises!

What do you know about:

Sehra bandi ( the tying of that awful long veil over the groom's face)

Dood pilai (do hindus do it too or it is from the sunnah?)

Doing the money around the head, and all of the other rasams like putting a leaf on girl's hand and putting mehndi on it and yellow stuff on her face.

Surely putting mehndi/henna on is ok? So as long as there is none of the whole fading of mehndi business and so the houswork commences ( in which case why doesnt the girl just keep going over it so that i stays dark? :p

And wearing red? What if you want to wear red just..and not because of culture..would that still be ok?

As far as i know the covering of the grooms face is something that arose from the fact that many hindus pre-arrange at birth who their daughters will marry, and so the grooms identity is hidden from the woman until the marriage ceremony is complete so that she cannot dispute the marriage as once she is married there is no escape for her from that. They consider it to be a womans "karma" and if she is unhappy with the marriage then its considered to be a punishment for a crime committed in a previous life, as u may know a hindu woman is considered a lowed "incarnation" than a man, and therefore is considered "unworthy" of living after her husbands death and until very recently ( and still happens amongst some today) she will be expected to throw heself on her husbands funeral pyre ( as they have to be cremated) and burn to death this is considered a great honour for a woman, as they beleive that she will be "reincarnated" to a higher incarnation..audu billah.

Im not indian sister, i was a british born christian,who studied and practised vaishnavism so i dont understand the term "dood pillali" perhaps this is tamil? or punjabi, bengali? or something i only studied sanscrit as all the texts of the vedas are in sandscrit which isnt widely spoken today even in india, let me know in english what it is please insha Allah.

the leaf placed on the hand is because if you look at many of the hindu statues the "wife" of their gods often will be seen with a lotus flower or a "tulasi" leaf imprint on the hand, as they refer to the "lotus feet" of god or the spiritual master,they beleive that gods "wife" incarnated into a tulasi plant ( a type of basil) and every morning they have a ceremony where they dance around the plant to worship it and get its blessings... audu billah.so bascially it is considered a type of blessing to imprint a leaf in henna on the hand to immitate rahdarahnis love for her husband krishna audu billah.The yellow power applied to the forehead, is tilak or sandal wood paste mixed with clay from "aupicious" rivers such as the maimuna and the ganges, it symbolises purity, and hindus use this daily saying mantra while applying it to their faces and especially at religious and wedding ceremonies, so perhaps this is why they have adopted this practice as a mark of a womans "purity" Allahu alam.


Allahu alam about mehndi because I understand there is a narrations where a woman came to deliver something from behind a screen to the prophet Salallahu alleyhi wa salam, and he salallahu alleyhi wa salam could not distinguish by her hand wether it was a man or a woman, and so he told her to colour her fingertips with henna ( this is where the finger tips are dipped in dark red henna usually seen today in nigeria) wa Allahu alam, ( i have had this narrated to me by a scolar and have not seen this hadith myself so Allah knows best.)

Allahu alam i dont see anything wrong with wearing red, i understand that there is a sahih narration where Aisha radiallahu anha wore a red striped wedding dress on her wedding day when she married the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam, and there is a sahih hadith where umm Kulthum the daughter of Muhammad salallahu alleyhi wa salam wore a red silk garment also so no problem with red insha Allah wa Allahu alam.

[*asiya*]

So anything that is from the Indian culture that was done before the advent of Islam and is not against Islam shouldn't be prohibited, unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals.

For eg.... If I want to have a wedding and I think that Christian "hosts" (that's how they're called right?) look cool and I want people to stand and eat that thing, then I'm OOBVIOUSLY imitating Christians and that shouldn't be allowed.

We can either reject our culture... or "Islamize" it!!!

I wish people would read from classical scholars (as opposed to this new salafis) what is meant by the hadith of "whoever imitates a people....", and how they applied it to derive rulings.

And Allah knows best.


It is a fact that these wedding traditions adopted by many asian muslims, are purely hindu Religious ceremonies, they are not merely "culture" they are part of the religious ceremonies, as the hindus like to carry out and immitate what they call "the past-times" of their gods, krishna, radharahni, rama, sita, and so on. So these practices are purely immitating the Religious ceremonies of the hindus.


:salams

I didn't call you a salafi but what I said is that most of the the things I read against "cultural" stuff is from modern scholars.
Please find me a classic hanafi text where cultural customs such as rasams are said to be forbidden.


wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi, you said yourself in your first post and i quote "unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals" so you already hold this belief and i dont need to bring you the opinions of the 4 madhabs on this issue. and i have clearly stated that these are from the Religious ceremonies of the hindus and i should know seeing as i practised this and i know this is from hinduisim ( as the saying goes the people of mecca knows the streets of mecca best) so there is no disagreement on this it is clearly from the hindus, and if you are not implying that i am a "salafi" who takes from "modern scolars" and who does not study from the "clasical scolars" then why bring such a statement at all in reply to my post, its completely unecessary and uncalled for.

[Ceren]

wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullahi, you said yourself in your first post and i quote "unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals" so you already hold this belief and i dont need to bring you the opinions of the 4 madhabs on this issue. and i have clearly stated that these are from the Religious ceremonies of the hindus and i should know seeing as i practised this and i know this is from hinduisim ( as the saying goes the people of mecca knows the streets of mecca best) so there is no disagreement on this it is clearly from the hindus, and if you are not implying that i am a "salafi" who takes from "modern scolars" and who does not study from the "clasical scolars" then why bring such a statement at all in reply to my post, its completely unecessary and uncalled for.

:salams

Sister, you are making claims... I'm just asking for the evidence. I'm not a scholar, I don't think you're a scholar either, so I'm just wondering about this.

As I said before, I think that classical scholars were much more accepting of the land's culture than modern postcolonial scholars. In hanafi fiqh, where there are lots of rulings on this things because of it spread through india, I have usually read that all those practices (such as henna party, being dressed in red, etc, etc.) are considered harmless and thus accepted.

So I personally have not read enough evidence from scholars from my madhab to say that doing those things it's haram.

And Allah knows best.

[nami]

I thought the simplest weddings were the best islamically. I am sure there is a verse about this somewhere as I read it and I'm sure I didn't dream it up. So if you have all these cultural events with music, candles, colours, dancing, free mixing, cars, lots of money, non prophetic traditions, I doubt that can be classified as a simple wedding.

On top of that, should we not want to get married like the prophets did? instead of copying hindus? as the prophets were our examples set by allah, the hindus were not our examples.

[Ebony]

As in hinduism the wife is considered like a housekeeper and the property of her husband, the mehndi put on her before the wedding means that she doesnt have to take up her duties as the new housekeeper for her husband, and the servant of his mother and father until the mehndi has worn off her hands and feet so its a respite for a new bride so she can be "available" to her husband soley, and not his parents and family at the start of the marriage, once the mehndi has worn off her skin then she has to resume the household duties..

Nah sis, by mendhi customs I dont mean the actual application of henna, as the women during the Prophets (saw) time used to apply it to their hands, in order to distinguish their hands from the men.

I mean the oil dripping, shoving sweets in mouth type stuff.

[*asiya*]

Nah sis, by mendhi customs I dont mean the actual application of henna, as the women during the Prophets (saw) time used to apply it to their hands, in order to distinguish their hands from the men.

I mean the oil dripping, shoving sweets in mouth type stuff.

Allahu alam about the oil. They use heated ghee in the fire ceremony at a hindu wedding, this ghee lamp is also passed through the worshippers daily in the temple, you wave your hand over the flame to get the "blessings" from "god" from it, as it has been offered to the "gods" before that, the sweets like burfi, ladu, rasgula and gulabjamons, are said to be "the favorites sweets of their gods" ( all connected with their reverence for the cow, so basically any sweet made from milk products ) is offered to their gods and if you eat one of them, its considered to plant seeds of "love and devotion" in your heart audu billah, this is why u see many sari clad, orange robed vaishnava hindus handing out these sweets in the streets of britian and america as they hope to plant the seeds of love and devotion into your heart, they beleive that anyone who eats the food that has been offered to their "gods" will stop being a "karmi" ( similar to the understanding of kaffur but in a hindu sense) and start being a "devotee"

nothing wrong with eating sweets made by muslims, just because they are nice sweets, but Allahu alam about doing this in the context as part of a wedding ceremony. coming from a background where i have lived and practised these religions Allahu alam maybe its easier for me to see where the divide between something being an act of worship from another religion, and something being just cultural ie: nothing wrong with eating rasgulla and bufi or serving them at a walima and masha Allah theyre delicious alhamdulillah ;)

[Ebony]

Those "gurangaa" people on the streets really bug me :smack:

Try having ghulab jaman with vanilla ice cream sis :D You'll love it (heat the ghulab jaman up a wee bit) :p

[.: Anna :.]

Try having ghulab jaman with vanilla ice cream sis :D You'll love it (heat the ghulab jaman up a wee bit) :pwe had that at one of r wedding parties, bt i dint know that guranga ppl love that aswell :eek: lol, gulab jaman is ma fave :cool:

[*asiya*]

:salams

Sister, you are making claims... I'm just asking for the evidence. I'm not a scholar, I don't think you're a scholar either, so I'm just wondering about this.

As I said before, I think that classical scholars were much more accepting of the land's culture than modern postcolonial scholars. In hanafi fiqh, where there are lots of rulings on this things because of it spread through india, I have usually read that all those practices (such as henna party, being dressed in red, etc, etc.) are considered harmless and thus accepted.

So I personally have not read enough evidence from scholars from my madhab to say that doing those things it's haram.

And Allah knows best.

you made the claim and I agree with that, and i also quoted you, and its clear from your post that is still there anyone can check it that you said this: "unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals"

so i dont know why you are still being so argumentative. I have been a teacher of vaishnava hinduism, i studied and trained in bhakti yoga as it is also known ( audu billah) so i know exactly what i am talking about. so you yourself have stated that it is not permissible to immitate religious rituals of other religions, I have stated only what their religious rituals are,which i would know better than you about, having been there and lived that life, and practised that religion. you can take my word for it, or you can disbelive me consider me a liar audu billah, and go and learn these religions for yourself, and study them and practice them, hang out in the hindu temples and sit with gurus and "spiritual masters" audu billah, and then you will see for youself that what i have "claimed" is true.

I have already stated the wearing of henna, and red garments for women are permissible in Islam and i stated the Islamic daleel for that, I have not once stated that anything is haram, i have only pointed out what is from the hindu religious ceremonies, so you have no argument with me at all :salams

[Ceren]

you made the claim and I agree with that, and i also quoted you, and its clear from your post that is still there anyone can check it that you said this: "unless it's obviously representing another religious rituals"

so i dont know why you are still being so argumentative. I have been a teacher of vaishnava hinduism, i studied and trained in bhakti yoga as it is also known ( audu billah) so i know exactly what i am talking about. so you yourself have stated that it is not permissible to immitate religious rituals of other religions, I have stated only what their religious rituals are,which i would know better than you about, having been there and lived that life, and practised that religion. you can take my word for it, or you can disbelive me consider me a liar audu billah, and go and learn these religions for yourself, and study them and practice them, hang out in the hindu temples and sit with gurus and "spiritual masters" audu billah, and then you will see for youself that what i have "claimed" is true.

I have already stated the wearing of henna, and red garments for women are permissible in Islam and i stated the Islamic daleel for that, I have not once stated that anything is haram, i have only pointed out what is from the hindu religious ceremonies, so you have no argument with me at all :salams


:salams

Sister, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to find the truth!! That's it.

There's a whole branch of fiqh that's about what constitutes "imitation" and what doesn't. Is not simple and even learned scholars have debated these issues.

The issue of... what to do when something comes from another religion/culture, if it's allowed or not, it's, as you have said, important.

I will look tomorrow InSha'Allah a couple of books regarding this and see what they have to say, but from what I've read, for it to be considered "imitation" it needs to imitate something it's ontologically haram, that is particular only to that group and that it's part of the religious rite. And by saying "it's part of the religious rite", it means that without it, the marriage will not be valid.

As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong since most of my information about hinduism comes from my sheikh and I have not practised or studied hinduism deeply), hindu wedding ceremonies historically varied among regions (less now due to globalization) and according to the caste you belonged to.

So even if you don't do the "rasams", your marriage will still be valid according to the hindu laws. That is why the thing is not "intrinsically" religious, but more cultural than anything, that even non-religious hindus would do it.

Please sister don't take this the wrong way, we're all trying to learn here and it's not possible if we don't "debate" between each other.

[*asiya*]

i`ve already stated what is according to the religious ceremony of the hindu wedding ( and yes without it the ceremony will not be valid) as i used to participate in such things audu billah, and so you will not find the specifics of a hindu wedding ceremony and what nullifies the ceremony in any Islamic fiqh book, and im not debating sister i have clearly stated the facts yet somehow you still want to debate them. Have you ever been to a hindu wedding or participated in temple worship of idols? if not then go and study hinduisim then you will have knowledge of what is immitating their ceremonies and which things constitute worship and what are merely cultural traditions with no religious basis. we have both agreed sister that Islamically, it is not permissible to immitate anything of their religious ceremonies so your point was dealt with many posts ago.

[Lu'Lu]

Im not indian sister, i was a british born christian,who studied and practised vaishnavism so i dont understand the term "dood pillali" perhaps this is tamil? or punjabi, bengali? or something i only studied sanscrit as all the texts of the vedas are in sandscrit which isnt widely spoken today even in india, let me know in english what it is please insha Allah.


JZK!!! Ukhti for such an informative post subhanaAllah i knew the rasams were bad... but not that bad!! That is so so useful alhumdulillah I have been searching for answers for ages and I didnt have anything to back up my disapproval except with 'im not gonna go near the guy if he wears a sehra' LOL. So now I know I can use it fully inshaAllah.

As for dood pilai, sorry i didnt clarify..drinking milk from the same cup in front of everyone.I know this is from the sunnah but I thought it would be done privately, not in front of everyone. But upon reading the hadith, it said that the vessel of milk at the wedding of Aaisha (RA) and the Prophet (SAW) was shared with other guests present and so it wasnt really private. I was just wondering if hindus do it too and how they do it! Just to make sure none of it taints the sunnah..

Jazakillah hu khayra once again dearest sis! Really appreciate it

p.s just out of interest, as you were a christian revert, what made you wanna study hinduism in so much depth?

[*asiya*]

yes sis masha Allah thats from the sunnah there is hadith about how RasoolAllah salallahu alleyhi wa salam offered milk to aisha then he turned the cup to drink from the same spot as her masha Allah which is lovely Alhamdulillah :inlove:

oh i was just desperately searching for the truth sis, born into christian family raised catholic, about age 17 became buddist,wasnt satisfied with that because i began to discover as i studied and practised more that its essentially an atheistic belief. Few years later i was still was searching for something that made sense,and because the vedas were so comprehensive and contain so many books, it took me a long time to study that religion and i began to teach it, and as i did i became discontented over the years with so many aspects of it which just didnt sit right in my heart , then i read the Quran one day ( knew nothing much about Islam at all before that day hadnt even spoken to a muslim about Islam) and after reading surah al baqarah it was enough to convince me that this was the true word of Almighty God from God the creator of all things,the God i had been searching for,and i read the rest loved and agreed with it all, it answered all my questions which no other religion had been able to do that far, and so I became Muslim subhanAllah, Alhamdulillah i was guided to Islam subhanAllah, Alhamdulillah :up: :lailah:

[newsgirl]

What some people on this thread have referred to as 'Paki' culture is actually village culture and should not be generalised as a trait of all Pakistani's.

I agree that events like the Mehndi aren't really needed religion wise, but if they are adding enjoyment to the occasion then its fine.

It is possible to have a no frills Pakistani wedding, it depends on the individuals. I am sure the Arabs and the Indonesians have their own quirks when it comes to weddings, it doesn't mean one is better than the other.

Lots of Pakistani's in the UK tend to have a self hating mentality, which puzzles me because the majority of them know nothing about Pakistan. I think this is connected to the fact that most British Pakistani's are from poor rural villages, and only a small minority are from the cities of Pakistan. If you go to Pakistan and to Lahore, Karachi etc you will see a very different kind of Pakistani.

These British Pakistanis who apparently 'hate' their culture need to realise the problem is their own backward families, not the country of Pakistan.

[MG]

What do you think of them?

What do you know of them?

Which ones would you say are definitely haraam/bidah?

I'm asking because there is a great deal of fuss made over this in traditional pakistani weddings and there is only so much you can call it bidah. For example, the 'dood pilai' rasam of drinking milk from the same cup is from the sunnah, except the cup is decorated with tacky velvet and gold and the couple have to drink from it in full public view of the guests (even if it is segregated). :S

So do you call it bidah or what? Bearing in mind that paki weddings are mainly for everyone else rather than the bride and groom so whatever they say doesnt really go...and people are likely to get offended if you dont do as they say.

:confused:


not the Lota again! :smack:

[ADZ w3]

:salams

Pakistani wedding r funny i got one this weekend...but there gona hve music :(...

[neelu]

What some people on this thread have referred to as 'Paki' culture is actually village culture and should not be generalised as a trait of all Pakistani's.


I've seen some incredibly dumb rasms carried out in the cities of Pakistan- this isn't just a village problem.

[angel*]

*shakeshead* i rmrbr when my sis got married, they had all these weird customs like Med pointed out and loads more, it was craaazy! culdnt stop laughing at the stupidity of it all, then like every1 kept telling me 2 go nik my brother-in-law'z shoes and i was like "eew no-way" ha ha the look on the faces of all the biddies was comical!!! Unforunatly wasnt so lucky with the other customs,:( but inshallah when i get married gonna deffo. skip all of them, ok...well most of them anyway:p Infact, now that i think of it doubt id go gte married in Pk either, we only went cuz my brother-in-lawz grandma was there.......:o

[Ebony]

Is there anything which states that the marriage ceremony must ONLY be the nikah and waleemah? And anything else - or extra- is "haram" :rolleyes: ?

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:

:salams


If there wasn't these pakisatni cultural traditions...kusre would be out of a job :rofl1:

And drinking from a lota... i feel really quesy cuz thats the bathroom tool!

:wswrwb: