Honor Killings of Women

[AbuMubarak]

Title
Question Respected scholars, As-Salamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatu Allah wa
Barakatuh. What does Islam say about honor killings? Does Islam
really have a concept of honor killings, most of the victims here are
females; so does Islam really order to kill females in the name of
honor?


Date 17/Jun/2002

Mufti
Islam Online Fatwa Editing Desk

Answer
Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be
upon His Messenger.

Dear sister in Islam, we do really appreciate your question, which
shows how far you are interested in getting yourself well-acquainted
with the sound teachings of Islam. May Allah bless your efforts in
pursuit of knowledge and may He keep us all firm in the straight
path!

Sister, it's a well-known fact that Islam maintains the protection of
life and does not sanction any violation against it. In the Glorious
Qur'an, Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set
purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and
He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa':
93)

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that
the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The
blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three
[instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a
life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community."
(Reported by Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer
and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario,
Canada, states:

"There is no such concept in Islam that is called "honor killing".
Islam holds every soul in high esteem and does not allow any
transgression upon it. It does not allow people to take the law in
their own hands and administer justice, because doing so will be
leading to chaos and lawlessness. Therefore, based on this, Islam
does not permit such killings.

First of all, in order to sanction killing, it must be through a
binding verdict issued by an authoritative law court. Individuals
themselves have no authority either to judge cases or pass judgments.
Therefore, a Muslim should not sanction such killing because doing so
will be leading to the rule of the law of the jungle. A civilized
society cannot be run by such laws."

Shedding more light on it, Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-
Azhar Fatwa Committee, states:

"Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and
killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso
slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah
is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an
awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93)

The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of
morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary
punishments.

It goes without saying that people are not entitled to take the law
in their own hands, for it's the responsibility of the Muslim State
and its concerned bodies to maintain peace, security, etc., and to
prevent chaos and disorder from creeping into the Muslim society."

Moreover, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti,
member of the North American Fiqh Council, adds:

"In Islam, there is no place for unjustifiable killing. Even in case
of capital punishment, only the government can apply the law through
the judicial procedures. No one has the authority to execute the law
other than the officers who are in charge.

Honor killing could be a wrong cultural tradition. It is unjust and
inhumane action. The murderer of that type deserves punishment."


Allah Almighty knows best.

[kaphirgoyim]

My guess is not. I heard a news blip on the radio that a man in Iran beheaded his seven y.o. daughter because he suspected that she was raped. He did it in protection of his 'fame' and 'honor', or so he said.

Of course, I couldn't find reference to the event in any Iranian news sources, so I guess that means it probably didn't happen anyway.

Rather than debate the authenticity of the story, where do we sit with regard to honor killing? To me, the premise is unfathomable.

[AbuMubarak]

kafir,

the whole thing behind honor killings is one of the most backward practices some muslims follow because of cultural stupidity

i have heard worse stories, even if thats not true

ignorance kills

this does not change the fact of stoning adulterers, gays, and apostates, those are islamic, but this honor killing thing is for the birds

nope, birds dont even do it

[Bilal]

pre Islam culture

The crimes are limited and decreasing because people became more educated and do not need such noisy.

[Peace]

Funny tho how non-Muslims often claim that the concept of God in Islam is vengeful and harsh while that of Christianity is one of Love and forgiveness.

But it seems to me that modern day Christians simply choose to forget parts of their own tradition that are not quite so loving and forgiving. In fact I would argue that the way God is portrayed in the Old Testement in particular is very "Scary!"

I'm not building a polemic against Christianity or any other faith - just an observation :)

Hassan



Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."

[MalcomBanned4?]

CBC did a good show on an Indian woman. Her parents promesed her to an old man (to marry) she maried a young Indian, the parents had her killed. Not sure if that would come under Honor killing or not but they are Hindu

[kaphirgoyim]

>>Funny tho how non-Muslims often claim that the concept of God in Islam is vengeful and harsh while that of Christianity is one of Love and forgiveness. <<

Since we share the same God, it should come to no suprise that our God shares some attributes. He very simply is, and transcends any earthly attributes. It has nothing to do with discrimination (between Islam and Christianity). Those attributes (you suggest) describe human emotion. I am not sure that we can apply them to the supreme being.

[Peace]

Originally posted by kaphirgoyim
Since we share the same God, it should come to no suprise that our God shares some attributes. He very simply is, and transcends any earthly attributes. It has nothing to do with discrimination (between Islam and Christianity). Those attributes (you suggest) describe human emotion. I am not sure that we can apply them to the supreme being.


Oh I agree with you entirely! It's just that it is something I have heard when some people criticise Islam.

I couldn't agree more that God is far beyond our definitions and human emotions and attributes.

The problem is that we have no way of describing Him - except through human language - which of course is tied to this world and is quite inadequate for truly comprehending God.

I think, very often, the descriptions of God throughout the ages tell us more about the time and the culture of the humans at the time than about God ;)

Hassan

[Bilal]

When I hear these questions, I think that there are no crimes in rest of the world except the Islamic world !

[AbuMubarak]

http://www.khilafah.com/1421/category.php?DocumentID=2633&TagID=24



In this article, Dr Nazreen Nawaz, examines Western attitudes towards the honour of women, their dangerous effect in the Muslim World and the manner in which Islam secures the honour of women.



Every society embraces the particular values that it honours, respects, and protects. However, the subject that is given such honour varies according to the viewpoint that the society and the state are established upon. This attitude towards honour will then consequently spread to shape the opinions of the individuals within the society at large.



Within a capitalist state, empty rhetoric is often expressed regarding the honour, care and protection given to the wife, mother, daughter and career woman. However, behind such words, the reality is very clear: the only object worthy of honour, care and protection is money and the values of freedom and democracy. Hence, we observe a situation in Western societies where the use of pornography and images of naked women to sell products has become an acceptable means due to its ability to create massive revenue. Under the guise of personal freedom, that stipulates that an individual should live his life according to his own desires and under his own accountability, we see an epidemic of crimes against women ranging from sexual harassment and rape to domestic violence. Women are encouraged by the male-run fashion industries to wear as little clothing as possible to reveal their beauty to all. We also see that slanderous allegations against the reputation of women have become commonplace in the media and within society at large. It is clear that the view of the woman being an economic commodity for the man, or tool to simply fulfil the desires of man, affects all levels of the society from the politicians, police force, army and doctors, to the simple man on the street. Such is the result of the capitalist ideology.



The antithesis to this situation is the deen of Islam where the true preservation of the honour of the woman is viewed as a life and death matter to be given the utmost care and attention. This is exhibited by the society and state and at all stages within the Muslim woman’s life as a daughter, wife, and mother. The Prophet (saw) said, “Whoever dies protecting his honour dies shaheed.” The woman is one of those honours placed within the palm of the man as an amana (trust) from his Creator Allah (swt) to be protected at all times. This attitude within an Islamic State would also affect every level of the society from the ruler, army, Qadis and to the man on the street.



An international view that has been propagated as to how the woman can achieve respect and honour within the society is to adopt the Western lifestyle, dress and to become a successful career woman. Alongside this, women have been instructed to call for the values of liberation, freedom, and equality and to aid the transformation of the systems of ruling within their countries to become more in tune with the Democratic system of government that secures all freedoms of the capitalist West. In contrast, the image portrayed of Islam is that it dishonours the woman by forcing her to cover in the khimar and jilbab, by encouraging early marriage, by commanding obedience to the father as a daughter and to the husband as a wife and by allowing polygamy for the man. The Western media, as proofs for their claim, repeatedly cite the existent pseudo-Islamic states such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.



The Western world calls for the Muslim woman to lock the Qur’an in the cupboard and disregard the rules and roles that emanate from Islam. It calls for her to uncover her beauty so she may be appreciated by men, to socialise freely with male friends and colleagues so as to elevate her status, to pursue her career at the expense of marriage and her marital duties and to call for further freedoms within her society.



Unfortunately, many of our dear sisters have taken this path, feeling that this will bring them the honour and protection that they desire as Muslim women within society. It is an attack that has been consistent over the past 150 years or so and this concept has corrupted the mentality of the rulers, scholars and intellectuals of this Ummah. Qasim Amin, an Egyptian judge in the 19th century, wrote a book entitled, Al Mara’at al Jadida (Modern Woman). In this, he rebukes Egyptians for glorifying their Islamic past and taking pride in their Islamic culture. He advises the Muslim woman to take the Western woman as her role model in order to elevate her status and the status of Egyptian society. He writes, “This is our real ailment which needs to be eradicated first of all. The first way to get rid of it is that we should make our younger generations acquainted more and more with Western civilisation and its conditions and circumstances ... We will realise the value and importance of Western civilisation and see for ourselves that no reform is possible unless it is based on modern Western knowledge ... For this very reason we project the people of the West as a symbol of perfection, insist on their veneration as an ideal, and appeal to our countrymen to study the position and status of the Western woman.”



With this in mind, it is important for us to examine the true reality of the status of the honour of the woman within the western capitalist states and the consequences of the call for ideas such as freedom and liberation. Has the achievement of a successful career, a free lifestyle, and a greater voice in the parliamentary process and democracy brought her the honour, status, protection and security that she desired?



The Capitalist Western States and the Dishonouring of the Woman



The greatest idol within the capitalist state is money. Consequently, the main question that plagues the minds of the individuals within the society is how to increase their material wealth. As a result, the woman is not viewed as a human being that has certain needs that require fulfilment, including the protection of her honour. Rather, she is viewed as an economic commodity to be exploited by whoever wishes to make money. In existence is a capitalist dominated world where the pornography industry generates $7 billion every year, a figure greater than the whole of the so-called “legitimate film and music industries” combined. In the US, pornography films gross $1 million every day, and in Britain 20 million copies of pornography magazines are sold every year, producing revenue of £500 million. It is therefore clear that men are encouraged to simply view women as objects to gratify their sexual desires. Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks from the adoption of the idea of freedom?



Could it be possible that the successful working woman is not seen in this light due to her material achievements and service within the society, such as the doctor, manager, engineer, secretary or teacher, and rather her male colleagues view her with respect and honour? It is naive to think that in a society that is drenched with the culture of personal freedom and opinion, that the work place or office would be a haven from such degrading mentality and behaviour. If we examine the issue of sexual harassment in the Western states, within those institutions that should theoretically exemplify morality, such as the governments that look after the affairs of the people and the police force and army, we see the true picture of the male view towards their female colleagues. In a survey conducted in the UK among the British Civil Service, 70% of the respondents claimed to have been sexually harassed at work. A survey in nine US states, examining a period of 5 years, stated that 60% of the female lawyers interviewed had been sexually harassed, a third by colleagues, 40% by clients, and 6% by judges. In the 1998 study by the Yale University School of Medical Researchers it was discovered that amongst the female soldiers of the American army serving in the Vietnam or Gulf war, 63% had experienced physical and sexual harassment during their military service, and 43% reported rape or attempted rape. If these are the professionals who claim to uphold the law, then what can be expected from the rest of the society? A successful career within the capitalist state has not given the woman the status that she dreamt of. Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks when she strives day and night to build her career and neglect her family, children, and other Islamic obligations?



Some may claim that Western women achieve harmony and honour in the home, if not in the public arena? This is a delusional idea. The BBC reported that nearly 25% of women in the UK face domestic violence at some stage in their life. Police are called to an incident of domestic violence every 60 seconds and receive 1,300 calls each day related to this. Domestic violence kills two women each week in the UK. Professor Betsy Stanke from University of London was quoted as saying, “What this shows is that men in Britain, like men around the world, also beat their wives.” Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks by adopting the Western lifestyle and culture and by forsaking the Islamic culture?



If we study the ultimate form of dishonour that a woman can experience, that of rape, we find shocking statistics illustrating the reality. In the US, a rape occurs every minute, and in the UK, one-third of women have been sexually abused by the age of 18. Also, there was a 500% increase in the reporting of rape between 1996 and 1997. In addition, the sentence for rape can be as low as 180 hours community service. The recent case of a middle-aged woman raped by a group of youths along a canal in West London clearly illustrates how low the honour of the woman has become within this society. She was raped by a 15 year old and 18 year old, while others watched and encouraged the episode, the youngest being 11 years old. Perhaps more shocking than this was that a girl actually held down the victim while her friends raped the woman. It appears that even women no longer value their honour. It is not surprising that the majority of women in the West do not feel safe on the streets at any time of the day. Is this really the honour that the Muslim woman seeks by calling for the Western capitalist system, democracy and freedom to be implemented over her?



The reason for this horrific reality is clear: the implementation of man-made law. Allah (swt) says:



“If the truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay we have sent them their admonition but they turn away from their admonition” [TMQ Al-Mu’minun: 71].



Allah (swt) also says:



“Whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery. But whoever turns away from My Reminder (That is, neither believes in the Qur’an nor acts on its orders) verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection” [TMQ Ta-Ha: 123-124].



The Current Reality of the Muslim World and the Dishonour of the Woman


However disgusting the statistics may prove, nothing can compare to the distress from understanding the reality of the Muslim world today. Our societies, if not mirroring the status of the Western picture, are rapidly approaching this. This is as a result of the domination of capitalism over our lands, the infiltration of the Western culture based upon freedom and democracy, and the absence of a true Islamic State, the Khilafah, to protect the honour of the Muslim woman.



In February this year, Reuters reported the case of three former Bosnian Serb commanders convicted by the United Nations War Crimes Court for rape and sexual enslavement of dozens of Muslim women in the area of Foca, in Southeast Bosnia, during the Bosnian war. Prosecutors said the three men took women and girls as young as 12 to a variety of “rape houses” for brutal beatings and assaults. Many women were so forcibly abused that they suffered permanent harm. One woman, identified as “witness 75”, was raped for three hours by 15 men. One 15-year-old girl described a knife wielding man who threatened to gouge her with a crucifix and forced her to drink alcohol. He made her assume a Serb name as he raped her. She described the horrific experience of being raped, “I remember he was very forceful. He wanted to hurt me. But he could never hurt me as much as my soul was hurting me.”



Such realities are not few in number. Our sisters continue to suffer such humiliation worldwide from Kosovo, to Palestine to Kashmir, due to the absence of the protection of the Islamic State.



The infiltration of freedom into our lands has brought with it rape, domestic violence, sexual perversion and prostitution engaged in by Muslim men. In Pakistan, a woman is raped every two hours. In March 1998, a case came to the attention of the Pakistani courts of a 14 year old school girl named Naumana Tabbasum who was gang raped in a governmental building in Peshawar by the section officer of the local government department and three of his colleagues. They had threatened to kill her parents if she revealed the truth. Is it not the government that should be the protector of the people and not its enemy? There are numerous reports also of police in Pakistan stripping women naked and parading them in public.



In Bangladesh, prostitution has been legalised, and it is said that the rate of abortion there of girls between 15 and 49 is 28/1000, almost the level of that within the US. Domestic violence is also reaching epidemic levels in the Muslim world. In Pakistan, there is a shocking statistic of domestic violence. It is said that 70% of women are subjected to violence in their homes. A new style is used in the Asian sub-continent called, “stove burning” where the woman is set on fire for reasons ranging from not bearing sons to not having added enough salt to the food. Lahore newspapers report over four cases of women injured per week from such treatment, and two hospitals in Pakistan stated that 500 women had burned to death as a result of such incidents in the past three years.



The reason for such problems is clear: the idea of personal freedom where the man can fulfil his desires and behave in any way he pleases. The consequences on others within society, and the honour of women, are dire. It is evident then that a call for the Western way of life, the adoption of the Western culture and the capitalist system can bring nothing but humiliation, dishonour, and insecurity for the Muslim woman.



The Organisations that Bring the Dishonour of the Muslim Woman to the Muslim Lands



The infiltration of Western culture and the introduction of the capitalist laws within the Muslim lands are not chance events. Calculated moves are taken by the Western states to constantly redefine the Islamic social system and attack the identity of the Muslim woman. They stand guilty of having exported the degradation of the woman within their societies to the sisters of the Muslim countries. The styles used include the Western media, the Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) functioning within Muslim lands and institutions such as the United Nations.



In June of last year, 188 nations from amongst Muslim and non-Muslim countries, and 1250 NGOs world-wide, gathered in New York for an International Women’s Conference entitled “Beijing + 5”. The objective was clear: to accelerate the standardisation of the relationship and roles of the men and women within society of all the nations of the world to be in line with the capitalist values. If we examine certain aims established through the discussions, this is openly apparent:



“Ensure that women of all ages can fully realize their sexuality, free of coercion, discrimination and violence, by developing legislation, disseminating information, and promoting accessible and affordable services.”



“Discourage, through media and other means, customary laws and practices, such as early marriage, polygamy ... ”



In Bangladesh, the NGOs aided the introduction of the legalisation of prostitution and continue to call for the freedom of the women within the society.



We should realise that the underhanded objectives behind such events is to drive the Muslim woman further away from her role and duties defined by Islam and to drive a wedge between her and the obedience to her Creator. Truly, we should understand the danger from taking our solutions from these institutions. It is a call for women to discard their honour and to lead them away from the beauties and rewards of Jannah. Allah (swt) warns us in the Qur’an:



“O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you...” [TMQ Ale-Imran: 118].



Allah (swt) also says:



“O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaytan. And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaytan then verily he commands Al-Fahsha (indecency) and Al-Munkar (evil). And had it not been for the grace of Allah and His Mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins” [TMQ An-Nur: 21].



Islam: Securing the Honour of the Woman



Having established that the call for the adoption of the Western woman’s dress, lifestyle, goals and systems will bring nothing but humiliation to the Muslim woman and her society, it is crucial that we understand that Islam is the only way of life, and that the Khilafah is the only ruling system that brings the woman honour, protection and elevation in society. We can observe how Islam brings the honour, dignity and tranquillity to the woman in three ways: having a correct aim in life, honouring the Muslim woman in society and securing her honour under the Khilafah.



1. Having the Correct Aim in Life



There is no doubt that the greatest honour in life is to be a Muslim. The greatest honour that can be bestowed upon the human being is to be a servant of Allah (swt) and to gain the pleasure and blessings of the Creator with every action performed in accordance with His command. Allah (swt) says:



“But honour belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and to the believers but the hypocrites know not” [TMQ Al-Munafiqun: 8].



Success is ensuring that not one minute passes without securing the rewards of the Hereafter by the pursuance of the fulfilment of the obligations to Allah (swt) in every area of life. Whether in ibadat, as a wife, a mother, daughter, fulfilling the contract of a job, covering her awrah with the khimar and jilbab in the public arena, segregating from the men or carrying the da’wa to make Allah’s (swt) word the highest by the work for the re-establishment of the Khilafah. Allah (swt) says:



“For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise, for them has God prepared forgiveness and a great reward” [TMQ Al-Ahzab: 35].



The greatest tranquillity is in the knowledge of the promise of Allah (swt) of the rewards of Jannah (paradise) for those men and women who restrict themselves to His limits and fulfil all of His obligations in life without discrimination. Truly, this is the greatest honour and success of all, to be in the company of the Prophets, the pure companions, and Insha’Allah to spend eternity in nearness to Allah (swt). Allah (swt) promises:



“The righteous (will be) amid gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water). (Their greeting will be): ‘Enter ye here in peace and security.’ And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury: (They will be) brothers (joyfully) facing each other on thrones (of dignity). There no sense of fatigue shall touch them, nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave” [TMQ Al-Hijr: 45-48].



We see then, for a Muslim woman, to fulfil the duties of wife and mother in Islam is a great honour. For her to obey her husband, or to serve him meals, or bring comfort to his life is not oppressive but an honour; for, she receives the pleasure and rewards of her Creator. The same can be said for the man fulfilling his role as a husband of providing for the family, consulting with the wife over affairs and being constantly observant over her physical and emotional welfare. The Prophet (saw) said, “Among my followers the best of men are those who are best to their wives and the best of women are those who are best to their husbands. To each of such women is set down a reward equivalent to the reward of a 1000 martyrs...”



For the mother to nurture her children physically, emotionally and with the Islamic culture, by feeding them, bathing them, playing with them and smiling at them, is a great honour. The Prophet (saw) has said, “When a woman breast feeds, for every gulp of milk she will receive a reward as if she had granted life to a being, and when she weans her child, the angels pat her on the back saying, ‘Congratulations! All your past sins have been forgiven, now start all over again’” [Riyadh al Salihin]. He (saw) also said, “During pregnancy until the time of childbirth, and until the end of the suckling period, a woman earns reward similar to that of the person who is guarding the borders of Islam” [Al-Tabarani].



2. The Honour of the Muslim Woman in Society



Allah (swt) has commanded the man to view the woman as an honour to be protected at all times, whether it is his mother, wife, daughter or any woman within society. The Prophet (saw) once told Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra), “Shall I not inform you about the best treasure a man can hoard? It is a virtuous wife who pleases him whenever he looks towards her, and who guards herself when he is absent from her.” On another occasion, he (saw) said, “The world and all things in the world are precious but the most precious thing in the world is a virtuous woman.” In his last sermon to the Muslims, he reminded them, “O People, it is true that you have certain rights, with regards to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah’s trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers.”



He (saw) has also said, “Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favour his son over her, God will enter him into paradise.”



A man at the time of the Prophet (saw) came to him and asked, “I have carried my mother single handed around the Ka’ba seven times, does this repay the kindness she showed me as a child?” The Prophet replied, “It does not even repay one contraction of the womb.”



This is the way that Allah (swt) has described the honour of the woman. Within an Islamic society, such an understanding will affect the men within the society at large, who will view the woman as an honour, regardless of whether she has a career or not. They will not belittle the position of the wife and mother but regard it with the highest of esteem.



This can be illustrated by an example at the time of the Khilafah of Umar bin Al-Khattab (ra) when a Jew was found killed. Umar asked the people if they knew about the matter, whereupon a Muslim called Bak’r in Shad’dakh appeared before him and said, “I have killed him.” Umar (ra) was astonished and asked him for the reason. The man explained that a Muslim brother had gone on Jihad and consigned his family members to him to look over in his absence. When he arrived at the house of the brother, he had found the Jew inside reciting poetry slandering the reputation of the brother’s wife by implying that he had spent the night with her in his absence. As a result, he killed him to protect the honour of the woman who had been placed under his protection. On hearing all the details, Umar (ra) exempted him from paying any ransom.



3. Honour of the Muslim Woman Secured by the Khilafah.



Having understood the command of Allah (swt) to ensure the honour and security of the Muslim woman within the society, we should ask ourselves why such a reality is not present today. The examples of how the woman faces shame and humiliation from pornography, to rape, to domestic violence every day in the Muslim lands and societies has already been detailed. The reason is clear, it is due to the absence of the Khilafah system. The question that now needs to be addressed is “How can this reality of the honour of the woman be secured once again within a society?” The answer is simple; it can only be through the re-establishment of the Khilafah. Then, we will have the ability to propagate the correct viewpoint to the individuals within the society through the education system and the media, and we will have the authority to enforce the appropriate punishments upon those who dishonour women. Let us examine two examples to illustrate how the honour of the Muslim woman was protected under the Khilafah of the past, compared to the reality of the world today.



The first example is that of slander against the reputation of an individual. Today, this is not seen as a severe crime, but Islam views this as a serious issue and has prescribed lashings as the punishment for such an action. During the Khilafah of Umar (ra), a slave girl complained to him, in his capacity as the Khalifah, against her master by saying, “My master has accused me of adultery and punished me by forcing me to sit on fire. Thus my private part is burnt.” Umar (ra) asked, “Has your master seen you committing adultery?” She replied in the negative. Umar (ra) asked, “Have you made any confession before him?” She answered “No.” Thereafter, Umar (ra) called that man and asked, “Do you punish like the punishment of Allah?” He said, “I had developed suspicion about the slave girl.” Umar (ra) asked, “Have you seen her committing adultery?” The master denied to have seen her doing so. Umar (ra) asked, “Has she confessed about doing so?” The master again said “No!” Upon this, Umar (ra) said, “I swear by the one who holds my life that had I not heard the Holy Prophet (saw) saying that a slave cannot take ransom from his master and a child from his father, I would have certainly taken revenge on you.” Afterwards, Umar (ra) gave the master 100 lashes and freed the slave girl. Such is how the honour of the woman is protected under the Khilafah through its authority, which ensures the implementation of the hudud of Allah (swt).



The second example is also cited during the Khalifah of Umar (ra). While he was visiting Syria, a Jew came to him and complained that a Muslim had beaten him badly. Umar (ra) asked one of the companions, Suhaib (ra), to find out who was guilty of the action. The accused was Auf bin Malik Ashjai (ra) who was brought in front of Umar (ra) and asked to explain his actions. He replied, “Let it be known to you that the plaintiff was driving away a Muslim lady on his ass and on the way he gave her a jerk so that she would fall from the ass, but when she did not fall he pushed her. When she fell down, he mounted on the lady and lay with his face downward.” The father and husband of the woman confirmed his story. Umar (ra) ordered for the Jew to be killed.



It can be seen clearly from such examples that in order to establish the rule of Allah (swt) in protecting the honour of the Muslims within the society, it requires the presence of the structures of the Khilafah. During the time when the earth was blessed with the cool breeze of the Islamic State, harmony was brought to societies and tranquillity to individuals in turmoil. Women felt secure in their homes and on the street.



It is not a successful career in itself, financial independence or the fewer clothes that are worn, that brings a woman honour and success, but the abiding of the commands of her Creator and the establishment of the Islamic State over her.



The Islamic State brought true honour to the woman who had, for so many years, been viewed simply as a commodity and object to satisfy the desires of men. For 1400 years the woman remained protected, safe and valued. With the loss of her shield, the Khilafah, she has once again become an economic commodity in the palm of the capitalist and an object of desire within the capitalist way of life.



The protection of the honour of the Muslim in the society is not an option but an obligation. The responsibility then is for the believing man and woman to work with all their efforts to re-install the body that will achieve the fulfilment of this obligation within the society: the Khilafah.



Dr. Nazreen Nawaz

[jumpinjackflash]

We all know that in some Islamic nations, there is the practice of honor killings of women who are deemed to be guilty of sexual misbehavior. I would like to know more about the belief behind this practice, so I would like to hear your thoughts on the topic in general and these questions in particular:

1. Does the practice arise from Islamic teaching or from pre-Islamic tribal customs?

2. In what circumstances is honor killing justified?
A. Adultery (i.e. a married womand has sex with someone other than her husband?
B. Pre-marital sex (i.e. an unmarried woman has sex).
C. Rape (i.e. a woman, married or not, is forced to have sex against her will)?

3. Are men ever killed for sexual misbehavior?

Thanks.

[JiHaD_JoE]

i believe that some parts of Honor killings r pre-Islamic, for example, not obeying ure husband. but there r kinds where both man and women get killed for adultry and pre martial sex. men r also eligible for honor killings. for rape for example, the rapist (usually a man) is killed. hope i helped!

[Sitar Romance]

why are women always the target of so-called honor killlings? what about MEN who rape, woo, and seduce women? It disgusts me.

[AbuMubarak]

o boy, here we go again

there is a thread on it, do a search

honor killings are for the birds, no, birds dont even do it

lets try to attack islam with some new material

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Sitar Romance
why are women always the target of so-called honor killlings? what about MEN who rape, woo, and seduce women? It disgusts me. sorry sitar, this is my first reply to you, but i assumed by the name you were muslim

rape, adultery, fornication, murtad, highway robbery, etc are all equally punishable to men, as well as women

the only difference is if a married woman has a baby out of adultery, she cannot prove who the father is, thus she is guilty by the baby, but there is no witness to prove the baby is the mans

maybe in this day and time, dna can be used, you should ask a scholar about that one

where do you learn your islam?

[muawiyah]

Article 340 of the Jordan Penal Code, reads in part, “Anyone catching his wife or one of his immediate family in a flagrant act of fornication with another person, and kills, injures or harms both or either of them, will benefit from the exculpating excuse…”

Here is a traditionalist ruling on this matter according to the principles (usul) of fiqh of the scholars, based on the evidences from Quran, hadith, consensus (ijma`a) and analogy (qiyas). The excerpts from Al-Istidhkar[a] by Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr. Abu ‘Umar Yusuf b. ‘Abdallah b. Muhammad Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr, may Allah have mercy upon him and upon us, a well-known Maliki scholar of Qurtuba (Andalusia in present-day Spain) who died in the last half of the fifth century of the glorious hijra. He was a faqih (jurist), a historian, and a muhaddith (scholar of Prophetic Traditions), although he is more famous as a muhaddith than as a faqih. His Istidhkar is one of two massive commentaries the author wrote on the Muwatta` of Imam Ahl al-Madina, Malik b. Anas, may Allah be well-pleased with him. While the other work – al-Tamhid – is primarily a work of hadith, al-Istidhkar is a veritable encyclopedia of the legal opinions (fiqh) of the early scholars of Islam.

Chapter: "The Legal Ruling (qada`) Regarding One Who Discovers a [non-Mahrim] Man With His Wife"


Malik narrated from Suhayl b. Abi Salih al-Samman, from his father, from Abu Hurayra that Sa'd b. 'Ubada, said to the Prophet (S) "Suppose I discover a man with my wife. Should I leave him be unless I bring four witnesses?" The Prophet (S) said, "Yes"

This hadith includes the following legal principles: The prohibition against applying a legal penalty without legal authority (bi ghayri sultan) and without witnesses; cutting off the means to shedding the blood of a Muslim based merely upon the claim of his accuser, the one seeking the shedding of the accused's blood. the truth of the claim would be known only by [the accuser's] own statement and Allah, may He be glorified and sanctified, has made the life of a Muslim a precious thing, and has made the sin in taking it great as well. Therefore, it [legal punishment] is permissible only under the conditions in which Allah has permitted it. [Application of legal punishments] is exclusively for the government so that it may apply that which Allah has commanded in His book or on the tongue of His Prophet (S).

Malik followed that hadith with an opinion of ‘Ali , may Allah be well-pleased with him, which clarifies the rule.

Malik narrated from Sa'id b. Yahya from Sa'id b. al-Musayyib that "A man from Syria, with the name of Ibn Khaybari, discovered a man with his wife so he killed him, or both of them. Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan was unsure of how to rule in his case, so he wrote a letter to Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, asking him to ask 'Ali b. Abi Talib about that [case]. So he asked 'Ali about it, and 'Ali told him, 'This is not a case in my domain. I beseech you to tell me [its circumstances].' Abu Musa al-Ash'ari said: ‘Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan wrote me a letter directing me to ask you this question.’ Ali said, 'I am Abu Hasan -- if he [Ibn Khaybari] does not produce four witnesses, let him be given with a rope [to the relatives of the deceased]."

Ibn Jurayj, Ma'mar, and al-Thawri, reported it, or its near equivalent, from Yahya b. Sa'id from Sai'd b. al-Musayyib.

Ibn 'Abd al-Barr said: It means, according to him, that he [Mu’awiya] should deliver him [Ibn Khaybari] with a rope around his neck to the relatives of the victim so that they may take qisas against him. It was also said that he meant that [Mu’awiya] should deliver him [Ibn Khaybari] with a rope around his neck to the relatives of the victim so that they may take qisas against him unless he produces four witnesses to an act of adultery whose obligatory punishment is stoning [ii]. . .

. . .The bulk of jurists in the townships, the people of opinion and the people of transmitted knowledge[iii] concur in the opinion of ‘Ali, may Allah be well-pleased with him, bountiful praise to Allah.

‘Abd al-Razzaq mentioned from Ma’mar from al-Zuhri, who said: “A man asked the Prophet, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, saying ‘A man discovers another man with his wife; shall he kill him?’ The Prophet, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, said, ‘No, not without proof.’”

Abu Bakr b. Abi Shayba said: "‘Abda b. ‘Asim told me from al-Hasan, that he said, ‘Punishments are [the responsibility] of the government.”

A similar [opinion] is attributed to Ibn Muhayriz, ‘Ata` al-Khurasani, and ‘Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, and there is no disagreement on this point.

[b]Conclusion

It can be concluded from this citation that Ibn `Abd al-Barr is defining punishments, whether in regard to honor crimes, or other than that, to be the domain of the government, and not something which an individual can take upon himself to perform. To allow it would be to make an individual prosecutor, judge and executioner at one and the same time, and Allah knows best.

NOTES

[a] Al-Istidhkar al-jami’ li-madhahib fuqaha` al-amsar, Beirut, Mu`assasat al-risala, 1414/1993, Vol. 22, pp. 149-54

[ii] “al-zina al-mujib li-l-rajm.” While in the case of Ibn Khaybari, it appears that his wife would have been subject to rajm if he could prove his accusations, it is possible that a legal impediment would have prevented her from being subject to this punishment. The more general point is that not all acts of adultery, zina, are punished by rajm. Thus, even if someone were to have four witnesses to the act, but the adulterers were not muhsan, because they had never been married, for example, this defense would be inapplicable, wa allahu a’lam.

[iii]“wa ‘ala qawli ‘ali radiya allahu ‘anhu jama’at fuqaha` al-amsar wa ahl al-ra`y wa al-athar.”

[i]In addition to the narrow legal rule discussed by Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr in this context, there is a great lesson to Muslims regarding cooperation to further righteousness (al-ta’awun ‘ala al-birr wa-l-taqwa), even among foes. As is well-known, Mu’awiya, may Allah be well-pleased with him, and ‘Ali, may Allah ennoble his countenance, were engaged in a bitter dispute regarding the proper course of conduct to be pursued against those who murdered our master, ‘Uthman b. ‘Affan. Indeed, Mu’awiya refused to give bay’a (allegiance) to our master ‘Ali as a result of this disagreement, which eventually led to armed conflict between the two. Nevertheless, Mu’awiya, when faced with a problem for which he did not know the answer, wrote to the man with whom he was involved in a bitter political dispute, because he knew that Rasulallah, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, had described ‘Ali b. Abi Talib as “the most learned of you in giving legal judgment (“inna aqdakum ‘ali).” Likewise, ‘Ali did not hesitate in giving Mu’wiya sincere advice (nasiha) when he asked, although he no doubt considered his wilaya over Syria at that time to be an act of rebellion against his rule.

I ask Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala to grant us from His mercy the akhlaq of the Salaf as exemplified in this report.

[muawiyah]

Alhamdulliah what a beautiful administration our religion has!

[MalcomBanned4?]

if he [Ibn Khaybari] does not produce four witnesses, let him be given with a rope [to the relatives of the deceased]." If there wasn't 4 witnesses to the killing what were the relitives supposed to do with him and the rope?

[muawiyah]

Originally posted by MalcomBanned4?
If there wasn't 4 witnesses to the killing what were the relitives supposed to do with him and the rope?

Those 4 witness are with regards to the act of fornication/adultery b/w the wife of husband and the alien man, which the Husband must provide in order to justify his killing of the alien man. If he fails to do so, then he is handed over to relatives of the alien man whom he had killed, and these relatives will be given the choice of either pardoning the killer or carrying out the act of retaliation which is executing the killer.

[AbuMubarak]

Title: Who is the one who should carry out the hadd punishment for zina?


Question:


Is killing of a woman allowed for the sake of family honour ,if she is found guilty of anything that is not good for the family's name and honour ,for example she is blamed for adultery and is not proved yet or found to have relation with a na-mahrum(not related to her) ,If not kindly state some verses from Quran-e-Majeed and some Ahadiths which render such killings incorrect unless being processed through the court of Islamic Law? Did any such incident occur in the days of The Holy Prophet(P.B.U.H) and how was it dealt with?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

One of the gravest of major sins with which a person can meet his Lord is the sin of killing a soul whose killing Allaah has forbidden.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of Allaah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him”

[al-Nisa’ 4:93]

It was narrated that Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about major sins, and he said: “Associating others with Allaah, disobeying one’s parents, murder and bearing false witness.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2510; Muslim, 88.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The believer will continue to have a good chance of salvation so long as he does not shed haraam blood.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6469.

It is not permissible to accuse chaste women of zina. Zina can only be proven by the testimony of four men who see the act take place with their own eyes, and see the penis enter the vagina, or by the unforced confession of the man or woman who committed zina.

Anything other than that is accusing a Muslim woman of zina, for which the person should be given eighty lashes.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever. They indeed are the Faasiqoon (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”

[al-Noor 24:4]

It was narrated that Abu Hurayrah and Zayd ibn Khaalid al-Juhani (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… Go tomorrow, O Unays, to this woman and if she admits (to adultery) then stone her.” He said: I went to her the next day and she admitted it, so the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ordered that she be stoned.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2575; Muslim, 1698.

Allaah has specified the punishments for men and women who commit zina. The hadd punishment is stoning if they have been married and one hundred lashes for one who has not been previously married.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allaah, if you believe in Allaah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment”

[al-Noor 24:2]

It was narrated from Jaabir that a man from (the tribe of) Aslam came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was in the mosque and he said, “I have committed adultery.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Prophet had turned his face, and testified against himself four times. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "Are you mad?” He said, “No.” The Prophet said, “Are you married?" He said, "Yes.” So he commanded that he be stoned in the Musalla (Eid prayer place). When the stones troubled him, he ran away, until he was caught in al-Harrah and killed.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4969; Muslim, 1691.

If it is asked: who is it that should carry out this hadd punishment for zina?

The answer is:

No one should carry out the hadd punishments without the permission of the ruler. If there is no ruler who rules according to sharee’ah then it is not permissible for the ordinary people to carry out the hadd punishments. Whoever does that is sinning, because carrying out the hadd punishments requires examining the matter and requires shar’i knowledge in order to know the conditions of proof.

The ordinary people have no knowledge of such things, and the carrying out of one of the hadd punishments by the ordinary people leads to many evils and the loss of security, whereby people will attack one another and kill one another or chop off one another’s hands on the grounds that they are carrying out hadd punishments.

Al-Qurtubi said:

There is no dispute among the scholars that qisaas (retaliatory punishments) such as execution cannot be carried out except by those in authority who are obliged to carry out the qisaas and carry out hadd punishments etc, because Allaah has addressed the command regarding qisaas to all the Muslims, and it is not possible for all the Muslims to get together to carry out the qisaas, which is why they appointed a leader who may represent them in carrying out the qisaas and hadd punishments.

Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 2/245, 246.

Ibn Rushd al-Qurtubi said:

With regard to the one who should carry out this punishment – i.e., the hadd punishment for drinking alcohol – they agreed that the ruler should carry it out, and that applies to all the hadd punishments.

Bidaayat al-Mujtahid, 2/233.

Al-Shawkaani said:

It was narrated from Abu’l-Zinaad from his father that the fuqaha’ of the people of Madeenah used to say that no one should carry out any of the hadd punishments except the ruler, unless it is a man carrying out the hadd punishment for zina on his male or female slave. Nayl al-Awtaar, 7/295, 296.

The family of the woman should prevent her from committing immoral actions and should prevent the things that lead to that, such as going out, speaking to non-mahram men, and everything that may enable her to commit evil. If the only way is to detain her and tie her up, then they have the right to do that, so they should detain her in the house.

But as for killing her, they should not do that. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about a married woman who had children and who formed an attachment to a man and committed immoral actions with him. When she was found out, she tried to leave her husband: did she have any right to her children after doing this? Was there any sin on them if they cut off relations with her? Was it permissible for the one who has proof of that to kill her secretly? If someone else did that would he be sinning?

He replied:

Praise be to Allaah.

Her sons’ and male relatives’ duty is to prevent her from committing haraam actions, and if the only way they could do that is by detaining her, then they should detain her. If it means that they have to tie her up, then they should tie her up. But the son should not beat his mother, and with regard to treating her kindly, they have no right to do otherwise. It is not permissible for them to cut off ties with her so that she is free to do evil actions, rather they should try to prevent her from doing evil as much as possible. If she needs provision and clothing they should provide that for her. And it is not permissible for them to carry out the hadd punishment – execution or otherwise – on her, and they will be sinning if they do that.

Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 34/177-178.

It so happened that some women committed zina at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and no one in their families killed any of these women. One of them was al-Ghaamidiyyah (may Allaah be pleased with her).

It was narrated that Buraydah ibn al-Haseeb said: A woman from Ghaamid, a branch of al-Azd, came and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, purify me!” He said, “Woe to you! Go back and seek the forgiveness of Allaah and repent to Him.” She said: “I think that you intend to send me back as you sent Maa’iz ibn Maalik back.” He said, “What has happened to you?” She said that she had become pregnant as a result of zina. He said: “Is it you (who has done that)?” She said: “Yes.” He said to her: “(You will not be punished) until you give birth to that which is in your womb.” A man from among the Ansaar sponsored her [i.e., paid for her needs etc] until she delivered (the child). Then he (that Ansaari) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “The Ghaamidi woman has given birth to a child.” He (the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said: “Then we will not stone her and so leave her child with no one to nurse him.” One of the Ansaar stood up and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, let me be responsible for ensuring that he is nursed.” Then she was stoned to death.

Narrated by Muslim, 1695.

So the attitude of the family of the woman asked about here, claiming that she deserves to be executed, is wrong in other ways as well, such as:

1 – They do not have the attitude if one of their sons or brothers commits zina. This is like the actions of the people of the Jaahiliyyah who allowed themselves to commit zina but not their women. And these people feel that their honour has been besmirched and their protective jealousy comes to the for if their women commit sin, but there is no protective jealousy on their part if one of their sons or brothers does the same thing. Indeed some fathers boast about their son’s evil actions and encourage him to do it.

2 – They have opened the door for women to fall into sin, by allowing women to attend mixed schools, have bad friends, watch haraam things and sit in reprehensible gatherings. This has led to women’s hearts becoming deadened and attracted to immoral things. Some of them do not arrange marriages for their daughters or sisters and they stipulate impossible conditions, then they want to punish them when they are the ones who deserve punishment more.

3 – They don’t only kill for the sin of zina, rather they do that even if the woman only spoke to or got to know a non-mahram man, for which there is no hadd punishment of killing in sharee’ah.

4 – They open the door for everyone who wants to kill his sister or daughter on the grounds of nonsensical excuses, when the reason for killing her may be her wealth, or because she knows things about them that they want to conceal, or other such reasons.

From time to time we hear claims from the kaafir west or the deviant east that everyone who kills his sister or daughter does so because of honour. That is because many laws let the killer off if he kills any family member for this reason.

Even though this claim may be true, we should not be deceived by these people and their claims, because the purpose of these claims is to remove gheerah (protective jealousy) from the hearts of the woman’s family, and to open the door for women to commit immoral actions.

What the guardians of women must do is to fear Allaah regarding those who are under their care, and prevent them from committing immoral actions or doing the things that lead to that, and not be either careless or too strict.

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

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[AbdulRahman]

Honour Killing

from excellent "Tariqul Islam" website - a response by Ustadh Abdullah

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tariqul-Islam/






Ustadh Abdullah's response,

As Salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah to all,
Sorry that I've taken so long to respond to members' questions. I've been away and I'm still suffering from jetlag. So I'll try my best to find the appropriate responses to your inquiries in sha Allah.

As for "honor killings", Islam knows no such thing. As a matter of fact, culture plays a pivotal role in such acts, and such a concept is foreign to Islam. What this means is that the parent who kills his/her child is a sinner, and is subject to suitable punishment for the crime committed according to the Shariah.

Islam gives the parent more leeway in disciplining one's children for recalcitrance than it extends to non-parents. This can clearly be seen when we find Islam punishing the child who kills his/her parents with the penalty of death while on the other hand it does not punish the parent with death for the same crime. This results from the Prophet's statement - may Allah bless and grant him peace, "The parent (or father) shall not be killed because of his child." Although most limit this distinguished position to the father, some also extend it to the child's mother.

Consequently, if it happens that a father goes overboard in the disciplining of his child, the judgment of Islam is that he will not be punished for murder if he inadvertently kills him/her. However, he is still liable for abuse and excess in discipline and the Islamic judge has the right to punish him accordingly.

The ruling that the parent should not be punished for murdering his child is accepted by most Schools of Law absolutely. However, the view of Imam Malik is that this doesn't apply if a man happens to slit the child's throat. That is, if this is what led in the child's death, the parent will be killed for the murder of his child.
The reason is that it is clear that death didn't result from a mistake in excessive discipline. Rather, the act turned into a crime of passion, since slitting one's throat is usually a sign that the murderer intends to displace another's soul and cause them excessive suffering and pain.

And as for the scenario mentioned above, even if there had been the claim that the man's daughter had apostatized from Islam by departing with her Christian lover and taking on Western values, it would not be sufficient to justify such a killing, since the girl would merely be guilty of fornication, which demands only the hadd punishment of 100 lashes unless she believed it to be permissible to marry a non-Muslim, something that clearly contravenes the unanimous consensus of all Muslims. In this case, she would be a non-believer whose blood is lawful to taken but only by the established Islamic authority.

Vigilantism is forbidden in Islam. The Prophet (pbuh) has told us that "There is no harm (done), nor any reciprocation of harm." And Imam Nawwawi clarifies in his commentary on his 40 Hadith collection that this means that a person is not to take the law into his own hands if it happens that someone harms him/her. Rather, the matter must be refered to one who has the authority to exact justice for them to avoid the backlash of consecutive and perpetual acts of retaliation. This can only occur when the matter is entrusted to a neutral party who both parties involved respect and fear alike. This neutral party is the government.

Add to that that the person must be allowed time to repent from his/her wrong doing. This can only be guaranteed by an established and commonly-acknowledged public order.

And Allah knows best

[reachin'out]

There is no honour

in killing

[AbuZayd Al-Britaani]

Honor Killings

Mohammed Fadel PhD, JD.
© 2000

Article 340 of the Jordan Penal Code, reads in part, “Anyone catching his wife or one of his immediate family in a flagrant act of fornication with another person, and kills, injures or harms both or either of them, will benefit from the exculpating excuse…” In response to recent moves by King Abdullah II of Jordan to eliminate this part of the code, one “Islamic” group responded, “those who are voicing their concern for the lives of a group of women, they ought to show concern for their lives as chaste women with their honor protected, otherwise, what is life worth for a woman who profaned her honor and stained the reputation of everyone related to her? Who would repair the moral damage that she has inflicted upon her family? Her killing would probably be a salvation for her from the misery of living with her sin.”




This response outraged many Muslims. For that reason, I decided to research the Islamic ruling on the matter of “honor killings”, which are usually applied one-sidedly to women, but rarely if ever to men.



Here is a traditionalist ruling on this matter according to the principles (usul) of fiqh of the scholars, based on the evidences from Quran, hadith, consensus (ijma`a) and analogy (qiyas).

I have taken excerpts from Al-Istidhkar[i] by Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr. Abu ‘Umar Yusuf b. ‘Abdallah b. Muhammad Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr, may Allah have mercy upon him and upon us, a well-known Maliki scholar of Qurtuba (Andalusia in present-day Spain) who died in the last half of the fifth century of the glorious hijra. He was a faqih (jurist), a historian, and a muhaddith (scholar of Prophetic Traditions), although he is more famous as a muhaddith than as a faqih. His Istidhkar is one of two massive commentaries the author wrote on the Muwatta` of Imam Ahl al-Madina, Malik b. Anas, may Allah be well-pleased with him. While the other work – al-Tamhid – is primarily a work of hadith, al-Istidhkar is a veritable encyclopedia of the legal opinions (fiqh) of the early scholars of Islam.



Chapter: "The Legal Ruling (qada`) Regarding One Who
Discovers a [non-Mahrim] Man With His Wife"


Malik narrated from Suhayl b. Abi Salih al-Samman, from his father, from Abu Hurayra that Sa'd b. 'Ubada, said to the Prophet (S) "Suppose I discover a man with my wife. Should I leave him be unless I bring four witnesses?" The Prophet (S) said, "Yes"

This hadith includes the following legal principles: The prohibition against applying a legal penalty without legal authority (bi ghayri sultan) and without witnesses; cutting off the means to shedding the blood of a Muslim based merely upon the claim of his accuser, the one seeking the shedding of the accused's blood. [In this case] the truth of the claim would be known only by [the accuser's] own statement and Allah, may He be glorified and sanctified, has made the life of a Muslim a precious thing, and has made the sin in taking it great as well. Therefore, it [legal punishment] is permissible only under the conditions in which Allah has permitted it. [Application of legal punishments] is exclusively for the government so that it may apply that which Allah has commanded in His book or on the tongue of His Prophet (S).

Malik followed that hadith with an opinion of ‘Ali [b. Abi Talib], may Allah be well-pleased with him, which clarifies the rule.

Malik narrated from Sa'id b. Yahya from Sa'id b. al-Musayyib that "A man from Syria, with the name of Ibn Khaybari, discovered a man with his wife so he killed him, or both of them. Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan was unsure of how to rule in his case, so he wrote a letter to Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, asking him to ask 'Ali b. Abi Talib about that [case]. So he asked 'Ali about it, and 'Ali told him, 'This is not a case in my domain. I beseech you to tell me [its circumstances].' Abu Musa al-Ash'ari said: ‘Mu'awiya b. Abi Sufyan wrote me a letter directing me to ask you this question.’ Ali said, 'I am Abu Hasan -- if he [Ibn Khaybari] does not produce four witnesses, let him be given with a rope [to the relatives of the deceased]."

Ibn Jurayj, Ma'mar, and al-Thawri, reported it, or its near equivalent, from Yahya b. Sa'id from Sai'd b. al-Musayyib.

Ibn 'Abd al-Barr said: It means, according to him, that he [Mu’awiya] should deliver him [Ibn Khaybari] with a rope around his neck to the relatives of the victim so that they may take qisas against him. It was also said that he meant that [Mu’awiya] should deliver him [Ibn Khaybari] with a rope around his neck to the relatives of the victim so that they may take qisas against him unless he produces four witnesses to an act of adultery whose obligatory punishment is stoning [ii]. . .

. . .The bulk of jurists in the townships, the people of opinion and the people of transmitted knowledge[iii] concur in the opinion of ‘Ali, may Allah be well-pleased with him, bountiful praise to Allah.

‘Abd al-Razzaq mentioned from Ma’mar from al-Zuhri, who said: “A man asked the Prophet, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, saying ‘A man discovers another man with his wife; shall he kill him?’ The Prophet, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, said, ‘No, not without proof.’”

Abu Bakr b. Abi Shayba said: "‘Abda b. ‘Asim told me from al-Hasan, that he said, ‘Punishments are [the responsibility] of the government.”

A similar [opinion] is attributed to Ibn Muhayriz, ‘Ata` al-Khurasani, and ‘Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz, and there is no disagreement on this point.




Conclusion

It can be concluded from this citation that Ibn `Abd al-Barr is defining punishments, whether in regard to honor crimes, or other than that, to be the domain of the government, and not something which an individual can take upon himself to perform. To allow it would be to make an individual prosecutor, judge and executioner at one and the same time, and Allah knows best.






NOTES

[i] Al-Istidhkar al-jami’ li-madhahib fuqaha` al-amsar, Beirut, Mu`assasat al-risala, 1414/1993, Vol. 22, pp. 149-54

[ii] “al-zina al-mujib li-l-rajm.” While in the case of Ibn Khaybari, it appears that his wife would have been subject to rajm if he could prove his accusations, it is possible that a legal impediment would have prevented her from being subject to this punishment. The more general point is that not all acts of adultery, zina, are punished by rajm. Thus, even if someone were to have four witnesses to the act, but the adulterers were not muhsan, because they had never been married, for example, this defense would be inapplicable, wa allahu a’lam.

[iii]“wa ‘ala qawli ‘ali radiya allahu ‘anhu jama’at fuqaha` al-amsar wa ahl al-ra`y wa al-athar.”





In addition to the narrow legal rule discussed by Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr in this context, there is a great lesson to Muslims regarding cooperation to further righteousness (al-ta’awun ‘ala al-birr wa-l-taqwa), even among foes. As is well-known, Mu’awiya, may Allah be well-pleased with him, and ‘Ali, may Allah ennoble his countenance, were engaged in a bitter dispute regarding the proper course of conduct to be pursued against those who murdered our master, ‘Uthman b. ‘Affan. Indeed, Mu’awiya refused to give bay’a (allegiance) to our master ‘Ali as a result of this disagreement, which eventually led to armed conflict between the two. Nevertheless, Mu’awiya, when faced with a problem for which he did not know the answer, wrote to the man with whom he was involved in a bitter political dispute, because he knew that Rasulallah, may Allah grant him abundant blessings and peace, had described ‘Ali b. Abi Talib as “the most learned of you in giving legal judgment (“inna aqdakum ‘ali).” Likewise, ‘Ali did not hesitate in giving Mu’wiya sincere advice (nasiha) when he asked, although he no doubt considered his wilaya over Syria at that time to be an act of rebellion against his rule.

I ask Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala to grant us from His mercy the akhlaq of the Salaf as exemplified in this report.


Mohammed Fadel is an American-Muslim of Egyptian origin with a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages from the University of Chicago, dissertation in Islamic law, and a J.D. from the University of Virginia.

[Rasheed the 2nd]

Mash'Allah i have read with interest all of the above responses and thank excessively the studies made by those who gave detailed analysis of the question and its conclusion. Jazak'Allah Khair and may Allah reward the righteous.

[Justcurious]

I hear this latest honour killing has been received with turmoil in Turkey. What is the role of the religion in these killings or are they just an ancient tradition?

-------

Turkish police nab 14 over 'honour killing'
ISTANBUL - Turkey was in emotional turmoil on Wednesday amid reports that police had arrested a man who strangled his 14-year-old daughter to maintain family 'honour' after she was abducted and repeatedly raped by a stranger.

Thirteen relatives who ordered the father to carry out the murder were also arrested.



Most newspapers ran front-page stories on the killing, which provoked outrage in Turkey, where parliament passed a law last year to toughen penalties for so-called honour killings.

The girl, Nuran Halitoglu, was abducted late last month while on her way to a supermarket in Avcilar, a working-class district of the country's largest city, Istanbul.

Her kidnapper, a man in his 20s, repeatedly raped her before she escaped from the house where she had been held for four days.

The family, which comes from Van in eastern Turkey, then held a meeting and ordered the father Mehmet and his son Alaattin to kill the girl in order to lift what they saw as a stain on their honour, according to the newspaper reports.

The daily Milliyet said the young girl was strangled with electrical flex in a relative's house and her body buried in a forest.

After reporting his daughter's disappearance in an attempt to throw police off the scent, the father confessed to killing her. He said he would also have killed the rapist had the man not been in police custody.

Turkey has drawn fire from the European Union for failing to ensure the equality of men and women before the law, a serious obstacle to its aspirations to join the EU. -- AFP




http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,248229,00.html

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Honour killings have no place at all within the Muslim religion and is strictly forbidden ...

For more information, please kindly download this informative and detailed Honour Killings against Islam PDF (www.mcb.org.uk/honour_killings.pdf), which should clear all your doubts ...

Turkey has long been astray from Islam, even hijab was forbidden in their ratrace to get inside the EU ...

For the young sister who passed away, my blessings of Paradise are upon her :( ...

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Xaxerian
Honour killings have no place at all within the Muslim religion and is strictly forbidden ...

For more information, please kindly download this informative and detailed Honour Killings against Islam PDF (www.mcb.org.uk/honour_killings.pdf), which should clear all your doubts ...

Turkey has long been astray from Islam, even hijab was forbidden in their ratrace to get inside the EU ...

For the young sister who passed away, my blessings of Paradise are upon her :( ...

Umm, hijab has nothing to do with the EU

It was banned by Ataturk long before the EU even existed.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

It was allowed post-Ataturk, but was only recently banned ... there were tons of protests at the decision.

I happened to read the reports, the hijab ban was quite recent.

The military government of Turkey is running a ratrace to get inside the E.U., and in their haste to join them, they have gone on a secular rampage ... hence the hijab ban.

[Justcurious]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xaxerian
[b]Honour killings have no place at all within the Muslim religion and is strictly forbidden

-----

Why would something self-evident have to be forbidden? Is the rule also made with regard to bank robberies, other thefts, rape cases, forgery, etc. It should be self-evident to everybody that they are not allowed.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

But yes, not all people regard self-evident matters such as honour killings, murders, bank robberies, and thefts as wrong.

As well depicted by the sad state of honour killings.

It is in their culture. Passed on from generation to generation. Therefore they have not yet found it is immoral and indecent.

Therefore such a horrifying trend has to be forbidden.

So that people can understand the values of life correctly and be free from their own cultural indecencies such as cruelties like honour killings ...

Islam managed the aforementioned reformation by preaching morality and integrity to Arabia and the rest of the world.

[Kaiser]

Simple, anyone cought by doing a honour killing, gets executed in return, along with those who supported the person.

[.: Anna :.]

NO thats not islamic....its really sad :( poor girl :crying:

may Allah grant her Jannah :( ameen

[Ebony]

as if the girl hadnt gone thru enough..2 be abducted and raped is devastating enough.
u wud think her family wud show her support..i swear..sometimes all ppl think about is their reputation..wt will ppl think

maybe they shud think about the welfare of the family 1st and the opinions of others 2nd.

Ws

[.: Anna :.]

Originally posted by Ebony
as if the girl hadnt gone thru enough..2 be abducted and raped is devastating enough.
u wud think her family wud show her support..i swear..sometimes all ppl think about is their reputation..wt will ppl think

maybe they shud think about the welfare of the family 1st and the opinions of others 2nd.

Ws

very true sis :crying:
and anyway...people shudnt think badly of girls 4 bein raped anyway, its hardly their fault :rolleyes: its shudnt even damage their families reputation neway
ppl shud hav some compassion :( :crying:

[Kaiser]

Thats why people like that deserve to be shot by a firing squad.

And stupid cultural things like that should be forbidden with the punishment of death for anyone following it, only by force and terror could sick things like that be rooted out of a society that understands not laws, nor morals.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

It's a sad story all right :( ...

May the Almighty bless her among the finest in Paradise, in eternal peace and harmony :) ...

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Originally posted by Kohr-Ah
Thats why people like that deserve to be shot by a firing squad.

And stupid cultural things like that should be forbidden with the punishment of death for anyone following it, only by force and terror could sick things like that be rooted out of a society that understands not laws, nor morals.

I agree.

If only Turkey was under Islamic rule via the Shareaah ...

[.: Anna :.]

Originally posted by Xaxerian
It's a sad story all right :( ...

May the Almighty bless her among the finest in Paradise, in eternal peace and harmony :) ...

ameeen

kohr...actually wud the sharia punishment 4 this, b death?? (for the ppl who killed her i mean)
cos its taking life 4 no just cause is it not? n thats death, right??

[Ebony]

Originally posted by anna2000uk
very true sis :crying:
and anyway...people shudnt think badly of girls 4 bein raped anyway, its hardly their fault :rolleyes: its shudnt even damage their families reputation neway
ppl shud hav some compassion :( :crying:

sometimes cultural traditions are so engrained into their lives tht they dnt give these things a 2nd thought.
they may constantly go on and on about 'maintaining the family honour'
these ppl need to be educated about their ignorant ways

hw can some1 kill their own child is wt i dnt understand?. fair enough, some kids r annoying and drive u up the wall, but u wouldnt want to murder them and having a 'reason' 2 do it..is jst bewildering!

Ws

[.: Anna :.]

Originally posted by Ebony
sometimes cultural traditions are so engrained into their lives tht they dnt give these things a 2nd thought.
they may constantly go on and on about 'maintaining the family honour'
these ppl need to be educated about their ignorant ways

hw can some1 kill their own child is wt i dnt understand?. fair enough, some kids r annoying and drive u up the wall, but u wouldnt want to murder them and having a 'reason' 2 do it..is jst bewildering!

Ws

yahdahum Allah...ameen

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by Xaxerian
I agree.

If only Turkey was under Islamic rule via the Shareaah ...

The thing that makes me wonder is: why didnt a thousand years of Islamic Sharia rule, eliminate it ?

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

It virtually came BACK again.

Kemal Ataturk and his anti-Islam nonsense.

Either that or the possibility that the Shareeah was not depicted in a true and pure light.

The Noble Qu'ran specifically states that these types of merciless and savage killings are forbidden.

So does the Shareeah.

[Zaman]

People only look one way.

---
The shariah punishment would be this (correct me if im mistaken): The Rapists would be killed. Therefore the Family Honor would be maintained and there would be no reason to harm the girl or rush to marry her off. Life would go on as normal.
---

But let me ask you all (Muslims) this .... If your Sister, or your Daughter or your Mother (God-Forbid) had sex with someone - outside of marriage - and there was no Shariah or Islamic State to punish her and the other person .... WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

I dont mean if they were raped, that is a different matter, but if they CHOSE to do zina, then what would you do?

Would you go on living normally? Or would your self-respect, Dignity and Honor push you to avenge the insult ? What sort of Justice would you seek ?

[just a thought, not a pleasant one, but that is the basis for Honor Killings - so before you go throwing everyone in the same boat just consider this, and i hope no-one ever has to go through this, what has been mentioned, ever inshallah]

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Certainly anyone can make mistakes.

We should try to amend them by helping and teaching our sisters.

[Khuzamah]

Originally posted by Zaman
People only look one way.

---
The shariah punishment would be this (correct me if im mistaken): The Rapists would be killed. Therefore the Family Honor would be maintained and there would be no reason to harm the girl or rush to marry her off. Life would go on as normal.
---

But let me ask you all (Muslims) this .... If your Sister, or your Daughter or your Mother (God-Forbid) had sex with someone - outside of marriage - and there was no Shariah or Islamic State to punish her and the other person .... WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

I dont mean if they were raped, that is a different matter, but if they CHOSE to do zina, then what would you do?

Would you go on living normally? Or would your self-respect, Dignity and Honor push you to avenge the insult ? What sort of Justice would you seek ?

[just a thought, not a pleasant one, but that is the basis for Honor Killings - so before you go throwing everyone in the same boat just consider this, and i hope no-one ever has to go through this, what has been mentioned, ever inshallah]

well that would be a sin on them...
Is there any reason to get a sin on yourself aswell by killing them?? bearing in mind that it is not lawful 4 just any random person 2 attempt 2 carry out sharia punishments themselves...
and also, since people cannot be taken 2 account 4 other people's sins, is there really any reason 2 feel PERSONALLY that u are 2 b ashamed for this? although it is a bad thing.... they are the one who has just done that, so surely it should be THEIR honour at stake not urs, whether they are ur family or not.
I don't really think ur argument is enough to justify these kinds of murders, which are HARAM.
If someone did do that, in your family...probably is best 2 get them 2 see what they have done is really wrong, so that inshallah they are able 2 do tawba 2 Allah sincerely & maybe he will actually forgive them for it, but to just go ahead n kill them will probably not achieve anything, if u ask me

[Khuzamah]

oh yeah.... why just the emphasis on sisters?? Its just as bad for a man 2 commit zina u know...why just mention like daughters, what about sons? its just as bad... but noone goes around murdering their sons for it, do they? :(

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

:(

[Zaman]

if this happens in your family i think you will feel entirely different on the matter -

i guess it depends on your background but anyone who has Dignity and a strong Family background can not bear such a stain on their Honor or noble Reputation - and thats a fact.

for example...If some tramp went with your sister are you telling me you would do nothing but lend a hand of advice? please.

I firmly believe that such people (both the man/woman) should be "punished" ... Shariah or No Shariah.

Maybe its hard for you to think of this in the West but certainly in Muslim countries (where the Government/Laws are lax) it should not go unpunished.

Any decent honourable Family would not allow it to go unpunished and the fact that the entire family would become a laughing stock of the entire town if they did nothing are big pressures when it comes down to it.

You can no longer walk down the Bazar, because someone will laugh, crack jokes, make fun and mock you, your family and your Honor. It is unbearable and many give preference to DEATH rathre then to live a DOG LIFE such as this.

Also what of society? It destroys the very heart of it and Kids growing up think "oh there are no consequences if i do such and such" -

sometimes it takes more then words to uphold the Good and forbid the Evil.

wasalaam

[Kaiser]

Yeah, but I sure wouldnt kill anyone for it.

[Raven]

Originally posted by Kohr-Ah
Yeah, but I sure wouldnt kill anyone for it.

Plus, who determines when there has been a misdeed. Vigilante justice means there would be a high probability of a different set of rules.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Allah, the Most Glorious, decides on the judgement of a person's deeds ... His is the BEST justice of all!

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Xaxerian
Allah, the Most Glorious, decides on the judgement of a person's deeds ... His is the BEST justice of all!

Although I respect everybody's beliefs, in this case I'm a bit hesitant. Allah's wishes are subject to interpretations even among so-called believers, for which reason I support the present practice used in most countries, i.e., people act as judges.

[Ebony]

Zaman..r u saying tht u agree with honour killings?

oh yeh..jst kill them..tht solves evrything. rather tht doesnt solve anything..thts jst u brushing the issue under the carpet.

nxt time, i want to see an article where a father kills his son cz he's impregnated the girl nxt door (cows will fly b4 tht happens!)

Ws

[Zaman]

Originally posted by Ebony
Zaman..r u saying tht u agree with honour killings?
Ws

why dont you read what i am saying instead of asking me what im saying? :confused:

Recap:

I said i agree with a punishment. That is should never go unpunished.

I said i can to degree understand why people do "Honor Killings".

I said if it hits home, and it happens in your family (May Allah forbid that day) then you too may come closer to understanding why some people chose to do it.

In the abscence of Shariah, while we strive to implement it, if someone kills somone - would you let it pass without retaliation? Would society condone that evil? i think not. They would be punished. Likewise for this.

So what is the punishment?
The Islamic punishment for Zinaa is Lashes and Stones! is it not? For a unmarried it is 100 lashes and for a married it is stoning to death.

May i add that.... seldom does the condemned survive the 100 lashes if done properly.

As for your example that no father would do it to his son.... may i remind you that Omar (ra) punished his son with lashes for drinking alcohol (a sin considered less in degree, to Zina) and that he did it himself... killing him before he finished the 70 lashes.

[Khuzamah]

yes but people aren't supposed to carry out sharia punishments themselves....the scholars have agreed on this haven't they? its not down 2 individuals 2 implement the sharia punishments...therefore these "honour"killings can not be justified under sharia can they?? :confused:
I dont really get ur point of view zaman...
you reckon people would look down on the family cos of the actions of the girl or whatever, well in this case its rape so if people look down on her for that then I don't agree with that anyway, but even if it was w/ consent, which I can understand people are likely to look down on cos its haram, do you think people will all of a sudden stop looking down on it just because the dad or someone else kills her, which is also haram? that just means you have got 2 major haram acts goin on in the family...
HOW does that make it better? & you know once u do that...EVERYONE is gonna know what the girl in ur family did anyway, without that it could even be possible 2 keep it fairly quiet, she can do sincere tawba & u never know, Allah might keep her sin hidden.
And anyway...I'm from a non muslim family, so I kinda do know what it feels like if people in ur family do that... it doesn't mean I go around killing them though, you cant really justify it

[Zaman]

Originally posted by Khuzamah

And anyway...I'm from a non muslim family, so I kinda do know what it feels like if people in ur family do that... it doesn't mean I go around killing them though, you cant really justify it

Now i understand completely your viewpoint and how you arrived at it.

I presume, ofcourse, that your family is non-muslim? therefore No i do not expect you to go around punishing them.

[Khuzamah]

Originally posted by Zaman
Now i understand completely your viewpoint and how you arrived at it.

I presume, ofcourse, that your family is non-muslim? therefore No i do not expect you to go around punishing them.

yeah, I'm the only muslim in my family.

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Kohr-Ah
The thing that makes me wonder is: why didnt a thousand years of Islamic Sharia rule, eliminate it ?

A thousand years of Shariah rule did not eliminate the existance of criminals, it merely reduced it. Shariah rule does not control people's minds, let after the rule has been disbanded.

[abdulhakeem]

Saudi presenter shows beaten face (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=35590)

Islam's Wife-Beating (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=33857)

Pakistan: Women MPs term Hudood law un-Islamic (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=30290)

[Sultan]

The greatest problem in the muslim world today is illitracy.

Because village idiots can't read, they fall back on backward pre-islamic culture and traditions which still persist as a criteria for defining what's right and wrong.

The first immediate step that must be taken to revive the ummah is to increase literacy and teach pure Islam directly from Quran and Sunnah-an islam that is not polluted by cultural baggage.

[amana]

Originally posted by Ebony
sometimes cultural traditions are so engrained into their lives tht they dnt give these things a 2nd thought.
they may constantly go on and on about 'maintaining the family honour'
these ppl need to be educated about their ignorant ways

hw can some1 kill their own child is wt i dnt understand?. fair enough, some kids r annoying and drive u up the wall, but u wouldnt want to murder them and having a 'reason' 2 do it..is jst bewildering!

Ws


Here`s one of the westrner`s democratic, freedom culture.

Witch one is the best?



Monday April 26, 2004 7:01 PM


By WILEY HALL

Associated Press Writer

BALTIMORE (AP) - Twelve-year-old Nicole Townes is out of a coma but still struggling to recover after being pummeled and stomped at a birthday party in a beating that was shocking not just because of its savagery, but because it was meted out by other girls.

Authorities say it is symptomatic of a disturbing trend around the country: Girls are turning to violence more often and with terrifying intensity.

``We're seeing girls doing things now that we used to put off on boys,'' former Baltimore school Police Chief Jansen Robinson said. ``This is vicious, `I-want-to-hurt-you' fighting. It's a nationwide phenomenon and it's catching us all off guard.''

Police and prosecutors said Nicole's beating Feb. 28 began when a boy at the party, acting on a dare, kissed the girl on the cheek. The other children exploded with ``eeeewws'' and laughter, according to the police report.

The 36-year-old mother of the birthday girl apparently was offended, because the boy was supposed to be her daughter's boyfriend. So the mother allegedly urged her daughter to ``handle your business,'' an order police said meant the girl was supposed to defend the family's honor.

Nicole was scratched, pummeled, kicked and stomped by as many as six women and girls, police said. She was in a coma for nearly three weeks and is still hospitalized. Her family said she may have permanent brain damage.

Charged in the assault were the birthday girl, 13; her mother; her 19-year-old sister; and three other girls, ages 13, 14 and 15. Police also charged a 24-year-old woman who lived with Nicole with child abuse and neglect for leaving the girl at the party.

``We're just stunned and disgusted and we still can't understand how such a thing could have happened,'' said the family's pastor, the Rev. Durrell Williams of the Full Gospel Deliverance Church. Williams described Nicole as a timid girl, ``not one of your fighters.''

Around the country, school police and teachers are seeing a growing tendency for girls to settle disputes with their fists. They are finding themselves breaking up playground fights in which girls are going at each other toe-to-toe, like boys.

Nationally, violence among teenage boys - as measured by arrest statistics and surveys - outstrips violence among teenage girls 4 to 1, according to the Justice Department. But a generation ago, it was 10 to 1. Schools report a similar pattern in the number of girls suspended or expelled for fighting.

Experts say the trend simply reflects society - girls are more violent because society in general is more violent and less civil. Some say that the same breakdowns in family, church, community and school that have long been blamed for violence among boys are finally catching up to girls.

And some believe the violence is also fueled by the emergence of movies and video games such as ``Tomb Raider'' in which women wreak violence with the gusto of male action heroes.

The assault on Nicole illustrates how some parents are almost as immature as their children, said Rosetta Stith, principal of a Baltimore public school for teen mothers.

``You keep hearing that phrase, `Handle your business,' `Handle your business,''' Stith said. ``Now I ask you - What business could a 13-year-old possibly have? But for a lot of girls, it's all about respect, defending your turf, fighting for your man.''

Last May, girls were videotaped beating and kicking other girls during a hazing at well-to-do Glenbrook High School in suburban Chicago. And fighting among girl gangs in cities such as Los Angeles and Chicago has educators and community workers scrambling for solutions.

``It's a high-priority topic that resonates with any school, any principal today,'' said Bill Bond, who heads a project on school safety for the National Association of Secondary School Principals. ``I've been to 17 association meetings this year and the topic has been addressed at every meeting.''

Lauren Abramson, director of the Community Conferencing Center, a Baltimore agency that resolves disputes through mediation, said one difference between boys and girls is that gossip is more likely to be at the bottom of a dispute between girls.

``Gossip as a source of violence is understudied and little understood,'' Abramson said. ``But time and again, when we bring the parties together, get them to talk and dig into what started it all, it invariably comes back to something somebody heard somebody else said.''

Phil Leaf, director of the Center for the Prevention of Youth Violence at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, said society should not have been caught by surprise by the surge in girl violence.

``In retrospect, we can see girls falling prey to the same influences as boys,'' Leaf said. ``A decade or so ago, we were worried about the lack of male role models in the home. Today, there is a dearth of effective female role models as the mothers who used to be there are forced back into the job market or get rendered ineffective through abuse of drugs and alcohol.''

Leaf said the situation in Baltimore and other cities reminds him of the William Golding novel ``Lord of the Flies'': ``We're seeing the effects of children growing up in a world without adults.''

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0%2C1282%2C-4023124%2C00.html

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Ebony
nxt time, i want to see an article where a father kills his son cz he's impregnated the girl nxt door (cows will fly b4 tht happens!)

Ws

I just can't imagine that happening.

[amana]

Originally posted by Ebony
Zaman..r u saying tht u agree with honour killings?

oh yeh..jst kill them..tht solves evrything. rather tht doesnt solve anything..thts jst u brushing the issue under the carpet.

nxt time, i want to see an article where a father kills his son cz he's impregnated the girl nxt door (cows will fly b4 tht happens!)

Ws


Ebony,

actully that used to be the cases in Sicily and south Italy.

If some male had sex with a strange girl, the girl parents would contact the boy parents, and ask eather the boy marrie the girl or his parents kill him. If the boy parents wouln`t regulate the situaction, the girl parent would kill the boy. And the two family, would be anemy for generation and generation to come.

Today people overcome this barbaric action. But it was very honorable thing to do back then, though.

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by Zaman
if this happens in your family i think you will feel entirely different on the matter -

i guess it depends on your background but anyone who has Dignity and a strong Family background can not bear such a stain on their Honor or noble Reputation - and thats a fact.

for example...If some tramp went with your sister are you telling me you would do nothing but lend a hand of advice? please.

I firmly believe that such people (both the man/woman) should be "punished" ... Shariah or No Shariah.

Maybe its hard for you to think of this in the West but certainly in Muslim countries (where the Government/Laws are lax) it should not go unpunished.

Any decent honourable Family would not allow it to go unpunished and the fact that the entire family would become a laughing stock of the entire town if they did nothing are big pressures when it comes down to it.

You can no longer walk down the Bazar, because someone will laugh, crack jokes, make fun and mock you, your family and your Honor. It is unbearable and many give preference to DEATH rathre then to live a DOG LIFE such as this.

Also what of society? It destroys the very heart of it and Kids growing up think "oh there are no consequences if i do such and such" -

sometimes it takes more then words to uphold the Good and forbid the Evil.

wasalaam

That's vigilante justice Zaman, an act worthy of condemnation. Luckily, I am buff, so if anyone make fun of my family I kick their a$$.

JK.

No actually, those people who "mock" are worthy of Allah (SWT) condemnation.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Originally posted by Justcurious
Although I respect everybody's beliefs, in this case I'm a bit hesitant. Allah's wishes are subject to interpretations even among so-called believers, for which reason I support the present practice used in most countries, i.e., people act as judges.

Allah's wishes are dependent and subject to His Will ... not the interprations among believers.

Whenever the Almighty says "Be" unto anything He wishes, it will happen ...

[ClashCityRocker]

Originally posted by Zaman

But let me ask you all (Muslims) this .... If your Sister, or your Daughter or your Mother (God-Forbid) had sex with someone - outside of marriage - and there was no Shariah or Islamic State to punish her and the other person .... WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

I dont mean if they were raped, that is a different matter, but if they CHOSE to do zina, then what would you do?

Would you go on living normally? Or would your self-respect, Dignity and Honor push you to avenge the insult ? What sort of Justice would you seek ?

umm... what about MEN? are you saying its fine for men to sleep around with anyone, but women cannot sleep with whoever they like?

the expectation that women should be clean, sweet, innocent and virginal is pathetic, laughable and so backward. women should be able to do whatever they want, and if they do something bad, then its THEIR OWN FAULT.

Allah knows what is in our hearts and minds!

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by ClashCityRocker
umm... what about MEN? are you saying its fine for men to sleep around with anyone, but women cannot sleep with whoever they like?

No one is saying that its fine for men to sleep around. When someone in autralia gets killed it doesnt hurt as much as if someone in your own family gets killed does it? similarly if a female relative commits zinna it hurts much more than if a male relative commits it simply because the females hold the honour of the family and the boys dont. In pakistan if someone commits zinna the family demand blood revenge from the family of the boy who commited it. And in some cases they even execute the girl. Less ignorant (or less violent) families provide the option of marriage in replace of blood. But really the only soloution is sariah punishment (70 lashes on both the boy and girl)

[Zaman]

Originally posted by amana
Ebony,

actully that used to be the cases in Sicily and south Italy.

If some male had sex with a strange girl, the girl parents would contact the boy parents, and ask eather the boy marrie the girl or his parents kill him. If the boy parents wouln`t regulate the situaction, the girl parent would kill the boy. And the two family, would be anemy for generation and generation to come.

Today people overcome this barbaric action. But it was very honorable thing to do back then, though.

Damn Straight, amana, i give respect to the Italians and the Sicilians. Infact Catholics i respect in that manner - if you mess around with a catholic girl her brother will come for your blood.

ClashCityRocker... it was a EXAMPLE - you want me to sit there writing out every possible person who can comit Zina? ofcourse it goes for men and women. If you cant imagine a father punishing his son then either you havent got a veyr good imagination or you havent seen enough of the world.

Call it "vigilante justice" or any other name you want - makes no difference. In the abscence of Shariah/Khilafah there will always be those of us vigilant in seeking Justice for the Crimes forbidden by Allah. In promoting the Good and forbidding the Evil.

The Evil have to be made a example of- else how can you distinguish it from halal? Again i ask you What would YOUR (personal) reaction be?

I agree ... Islamic punishment of 70 lashes but if done properly they will not survive inshallah and remember 70 is only for those who are unmarried. If one or both are married then the punishment is stoning to death.

[Kaiser]

Umm 70 lashes, that will mostly kill the person and by the post it seems them dying is a good thing.

I dont agree in the slightest with punishments like that, esp if they are both unmarried.

[Ebony]

it seems as if boys get off with this.
bearing in mind tht for this case, the girl wsnt commiting Zinaa, she ws RAPED.

her family is obviously ignorant. some1 shud stone her father 2 death

Ws

[Tahiyah]

how can killing your child restore honour? she is tortured by rape, then killed for it? how is this any less barbaric then the killing of innocent female infants in the pre-islamic era?

how can you be embarassed through your childs rape?! kill yourself if your that bothered by it.

how arrogant and selfish! how satanic! kill the $%#@* evil fool that killed his child and rid the earth of his type!

i am so annoyed that this type of behavior is thought to be islamic. islam doesnt murder innocent children.

sick, disturbed, arrogant, hell-bent on control, MEN do.

[Kaiser]

Yeah, if it bothers your honour that much, kill yourself instead of someone whos innocent and is the victim.

[fides]

Amen sisters, wake up to the mindset that will kill you like a piece of property.

Why does this damage the honor of men? Because they think you are their property. They think they own you, and can take your life.

[Raven]

Originally posted by Ebony
it seems as if boys get off with this.
bearing in mind tht for this case, the girl wsnt commiting Zinaa, she ws RAPED.

With all due respect, doesn't rape have to be proved by 4 male witnesses? If it can't be proven, doesn't it just count as Zina?

[Chained_Water]

Originally posted by Raven
With all due respect, doesn't rape have to be proved by 4 male witnesses? If it can't be proven, doesn't it just count as Zina?

no i don't see how it can :rolleyes: bearing in mind you need FOUR witness for the zina to be proved too..

[Ebony]

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5903

Why is rape victim expected to produce atleast 4 witnesses in order to have her rapist convicted? Why is she accused of adultery incase she cant and given a punishment of stoning to death?

Assalamualaikum, you may have come across the news item in the paper in which a married woman who was raped by her husbands brother (at that time her husband was in jail) in Pakistan. Her inlaws refused to believe her and accused her of commiting adultery with a totally different person (that way getting back at her and some enemy of theirs)and got her arrested. She was convicted of adultery by the court and sentenced to be stoned to death. A lot of women and general public protested this and finally she was released. Her husband believes her and accepts the child (which came as a result of the rape incident) as his. All of this happened only becos the lady couldnt produce 4 witnesses to prove rape (said to be according to Islam). Isnt this expecting too much of a woman who already has to live with the shame of being raped? Please tell me if this is the case in Islam?? Thanking you, Jazakallah Khair.

Answer 5903 2002-06-14

According to the Islamic law, Hadd is defined as a specific punishment for
committing a specific crime which is the right of God and human beings.
(Hidaaya vol.2 pg.506; Ilmiyyah)

Islam propagates respecting life, wealth and honour. The Prophet Muhammad
(may the peace and blessings be upon him) declared in his farewell
pilgrimage, 'Behold, Verily your blood, your wealth and your honour is
sanctified like the sanctity of this day (the tenth of Dhul-Hijjah - last
month of the lunar calendar when Muslims perform Hajj and sacrifice
animals), this month (Dhul-Hijjah) and this city (Makkah).' (Bukhari vol.1
pg.234; Qadeemi) All three are sanctified by a believer.

The purpose of punishments is to deter criminals from committing crimes that
will effect the safety of one's life, wealth and honour. The punishment of
cutting the hands for theft is a means of protecting one's wealth. The
punishment of lashing a person for false accusations is a means of
protecting one's integrity. Similarly, the punishment of stoning a married
person to death for committing adultery is a means of protection from all
the evils that emanate from the evil of adultery which leads to breaking of
families, abortion, illegitimate children, etc. Each one of these evils have
become an unbearable burden even to the first world countries.

THE PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN ISLAM
The punishment for adultery has two categories: Adultery committed by an
unmarried person or a married person. This distinction becomes necessary
because the punishment varies for both. Punishment of adultery for an
unmarried person is 100 strokes of lashes. (Qur'aan - Chapter 24 verse 2)
Punishment of adultery for a married person is stoning to death, if he/she
is; a) A free person (not a slave), b) Sane, c) Physically mature, d)
Muslim, e) Married, f) Had intimacy with his spouse. (Hidaaya vol.2 pg.507;
Ilmiyyah) This punishment was unanimously upheld by all the Islamic Jurists
based on the order and practice by Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him).

The crime must be proven beyond the shadow of doubt as the Prophet Muhammad
(Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) is understood to have stated, 'Hudood will
fall off due to doubts.' (Tirmidhi vol.1 pg.268; HM Saeed)

The laws of evidence in Islamic law are strict. If the witnesses are not
honourable as stipulated in Islamic law or there is any inconsistency in any
one of the witnesses statements, the accused will not be convicted. In fact,
the witnesses will be punished for making a false allegation. (Shaami vol.4
pg.8; HM Saeed). If the Qaadhi (presiding Muslim judge) is satisfied that
the allegation is true and proven beyond the shadow of doubt will he issue
the decree of punishment for adultery.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Camperdown



http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=4017&dgn=4

Question :


Does a woman have to defend herself if someone wants to rape her, and is she allowed to use a weapon for that purpose?

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

A woman who is being forced to commit zinaa [unlawful sexual activity] is obliged to defend herself and should not give in even if she kills the one who wants to do that to her. This self-defence is waajib (obligatory), and she is not at fault if she kills the one who wants to force her into zinaa. Imaam Ahmad and Ibn Hibbaan reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever is killed defending his property is a shaheed (martyr), whoever is killed defending himself is a shaheed, whoever is killed defending his religion is a shaheed, and whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed.” In the commentary on this hadeeth it says: “whoever is killed defending his family is a shaheed” refers to the one who defends the honour of his wife and female relatives.

If a man is obliged to defend his wife and fight off the one who wants to rape her – even if this leads to his own death – then this obligation applies even more to the woman herself, who must defend herself and not give in to the aggressor who wants to violate her honour, even if she is killed, because if she is killed she will also be a shaheedah, just as her husband will be a shaheed if he was killed defending her honour. Shahaadah (martyrdom, the status of shaheed) is a high status which is only achieved by the one who dies in the way of obedience to Allaah and that which He loves, which indicates that Allaah loves this kind of defence, a man’s fighting to defend his wife’s honour and a woman’s fighting to defend herself. But if she is unable to defend herself, and the evil aggressor overpowers her and rapes her by force, then she should not be subjected to any punishment (hadd or ta’zeer); rather, the punishment should be carried out on the evil aggressor.

It says in al-Mughni by Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali: “Concerning a woman who was pursued by a man, and she killed him to protect herself, Ahmad said: ‘If she knew that he wanted [to rape] her, and she killed him to protect herself, then she is not at fault.’ Ahmad mentioned the hadeeth which al-Zuhri reported from al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad, from ‘Ubayd ibn ‘Umayr, in which it said that a man had visitors from [the tribe of] Hudhayl, and he wanted [to rape] a woman, so she threw a rock at him and killed him. ‘Umar said, ‘By Allaah, there is no diyah for him ever’ i.e., she did not have to pay the ‘blood money’ for him. If it is permissible to defend one's money, which one can give away, then a woman defending and protecting herself and her honour which cannot be given away, is clearly more permissible than a man defending his money. If this is clear, then she is obliged to defend herself if she can, because letting someone overpower her [rape her] is haraam, and by not defending herself, she lets him overpower her.” [al-Mughni, 8/331]

And Allaah knows best. Al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah, 5/42-43.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Turuq al-Hukmiyyah, 18: “(Section) … A woman who had committed zinaa was brought to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him), and he asked her about it and she admitted it, so he commanded that she should be stoned. ‘Ali said: ‘Maybe she had a reason.’ So he said to her, ‘What made you do that?’ She said, ‘I had a partner who shared livestock with me; his camels had water and milk, and mine had none. I got thirsty, so I asked him to give me something to drink, but he refused unless I let him have his way with me. I refused three times, but I was so thirsty that I thought I was going to die, so I gave him what he wanted, and he gave me something to drink.’ ‘Ali said: ‘Allaahu akbar! “… But if one is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [al-Baqarah 2:173 – interpretation of the meaning].’”

In Sunan al-Bayhaqi it says: “From Abu ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sulami, who said: ‘A woman was brought to ‘Umar who had been extremely thirsty, and had passed by a shepherd and asked him to give her something to drink; he had refused to give her something to drink unless she let him have his way with her. [‘Umar] consulted with the people as to whether he should have her stoned. ‘Ali said, ‘She was forced to do it. I think you should let her go.’ So he did so. I say: this is what should be done. If a woman is in desperate need of food and drink from a man, which he will not give her unless she lets him have his way with her, and she is scared that she will die without them, so she lets him have his way with her, then she is not to be punished. If it were asked, is it permissible for her in this situation to let him have his way with her, or does she have to suffer [her hunger and thirst] with patience, even if she dies? The answer is that her case is like that of a woman who is forced to commit zinaa, to whom it is said, ‘Either you let me have my way with you, or I will kill you.’ The woman who is forced to do this should not be punished; she can save herself from being killed in this manner, but if she bears it (i.e., being killed) with sabr (patience), this is better for her. (But she does not have to put up with with being killed). And Allaah knows best.”



Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

[Kaiser]

The thing is that in the case of rape and all, dont think theres gonna be 4 witnesses who saw it happen, unless it happens in public.

[Justcurious]

Plain question: "Why is rape victim expected to produce atleast 4 witnesses in order to have her rapist convicted?"

Judging from the length of the reply, impossible to answer!

I read the answer, but still couldn't find any. Can you tell me, in simple terms, why?

[Kaiser]

Well, according to what I understand from some of these posts, the woman gets punished with death no matter what the situation.
The difference being the method of how she is killed.

[Chained_Water]

this thread is really disturbing..

on the one hand we have muslims implying its worse for a woman to commit zina than it is for a man.. I'd like to see some proofs from Quran or Sunnah to support that view..

then some muslims being sympathetic to parents MURDERING their own children simply because that child commits a sin..
WHY o why do so many muslims have this huge complex about the virginity of women..? and I don't think that's an exagerated statement at all, I mean we've had the threads about how in some muslim countries its standard practice for bedsheets to be checked for blood after "the first night" when a women gets married.. sicko's

and then people have this sypathetic view towards murderous parents.. its hurts you more if your daughter gets impregnated than if your son impregnates a girl? if that's true you have serious issues.. Allah(swt) hasn't made separate rules in this respect for men and women, zina is forbidden to both males and females and the punishments for sex outside marriage are same for them under Shariah.. when there is no Shariah and trials do not take place to PROVE the sin being committed, then any old fool cannot go around killing women..

you can't just say its worse for a woman and be sympathetic towards her parents for killing her.. it's true, they wouldn't kill their son for it half the time.. so do they even give a crap that she's disobeyed Allah(swt)? NO.. cuz if they did they'd care just as much about the son doing it.. do they punish her for disobeying Allah(swt)? NO.. they punish her for damaging their honour!? SO they THEMSELVES disobey Allah(swt) by committing murder, to restore their "honour".. how totally stupidly nuts is that?

all parties in these kind of incidences should learn to fear Allah(swt).. and put his commandments before their own desires or their own human pride.. how does murdering your child restore your honour? I really don't understand how that works in their heads.

last of all, muslims should also realise, it's not for them to decide what is and isn't a suitable punishment for adulterers and fornicators.. it's been made clear by Quran and Sunnah.. and if you have problems with it, take it up with Allah(swt) ..astaghfirullah.. where punishments are clear its not our place to say such and such is too harsh.. it's been decreed.. and we are not in a place to change the law, but to follow it.

[Chained_Water]

justcurious.. it's to make sure the verdict reached is correct beyond a shadow of a doubt.. the punishments are severe, so the standard of proof required for both adultery and rape is just as high

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Chained_Water
justcurious.. it's to make sure the verdict reached is correct beyond a shadow of a doubt.. the punishments are severe, so the standard of proof required for both adultery and rape is just as high

In other words, a man also has to have four witnesses in case something is levelled against him?

[fides]

Originally posted by Ebony
http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5903

Why is rape victim expected to produce atleast 4 witnesses in order to have her rapist convicted? Why is she accused of adultery incase she cant and given a punishment of stoning to death?

Assalamualaikum, you may have come across the news item in the paper in which a married woman who was raped by her husbands brother (at that time her husband was in jail) in Pakistan. Her inlaws refused to believe her and accused her of commiting adultery with a totally different person (that way getting back at her and some enemy of theirs)and got her arrested. She was convicted of adultery by the court and sentenced to be stoned to death. A lot of women and general public protested this and finally she was released. Her husband believes her and accepts the child (which came as a result of the rape incident) as his. All of this happened only becos the lady couldnt produce 4 witnesses to prove rape (said to be according to Islam). Isnt this expecting too much of a woman who already has to live with the shame of being raped? Please tell me if this is the case in Islam?? Thanking you, Jazakallah Khair.

Answer 5903 2002-06-14

According to the Islamic law, Hadd is defined as a specific punishment for
committing a specific crime which is the right of God and human beings.
(Hidaaya vol.2 pg.506; Ilmiyyah)

Islam propagates respecting life, wealth and honour. The Prophet Muhammad
(may the peace and blessings be upon him) declared in his farewell
pilgrimage, 'Behold, Verily your blood, your wealth and your honour is
sanctified like the sanctity of this day (the tenth of Dhul-Hijjah - last
month of the lunar calendar when Muslims perform Hajj and sacrifice
animals), this month (Dhul-Hijjah) and this city (Makkah).' (Bukhari vol.1
pg.234; Qadeemi) All three are sanctified by a believer.

The purpose of punishments is to deter criminals from committing crimes that
will effect the safety of one's life, wealth and honour. The punishment of
cutting the hands for theft is a means of protecting one's wealth. The
punishment of lashing a person for false accusations is a means of
protecting one's integrity. Similarly, the punishment of stoning a married
person to death for committing adultery is a means of protection from all
the evils that emanate from the evil of adultery which leads to breaking of
families, abortion, illegitimate children, etc. Each one of these evils have
become an unbearable burden even to the first world countries.

THE PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN ISLAM
The punishment for adultery has two categories: Adultery committed by an
unmarried person or a married person. This distinction becomes necessary
because the punishment varies for both. Punishment of adultery for an
unmarried person is 100 strokes of lashes. (Qur'aan - Chapter 24 verse 2)
Punishment of adultery for a married person is stoning to death, if he/she
is; a) A free person (not a slave), b) Sane, c) Physically mature, d)
Muslim, e) Married, f) Had intimacy with his spouse. (Hidaaya vol.2 pg.507;
Ilmiyyah) This punishment was unanimously upheld by all the Islamic Jurists
based on the order and practice by Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him).

The crime must be proven beyond the shadow of doubt as the Prophet Muhammad
(Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) is understood to have stated, 'Hudood will
fall off due to doubts.' (Tirmidhi vol.1 pg.268; HM Saeed)

The laws of evidence in Islamic law are strict. If the witnesses are not
honourable as stipulated in Islamic law or there is any inconsistency in any
one of the witnesses statements, the accused will not be convicted. In fact,
the witnesses will be punished for making a false allegation. (Shaami vol.4
pg.8; HM Saeed). If the Qaadhi (presiding Muslim judge) is satisfied that
the allegation is true and proven beyond the shadow of doubt will he issue
the decree of punishment for adultery.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai, Camperdown

...



Did this guy even answer the question?

All I see is a discussion of the punishment, nothing about the required 4 witnesses.

[Zaman]

Originally posted by Ebony
it seems as if boys get off with this.
bearing in mind tht for this case, the girl wsnt commiting Zinaa, she ws RAPED.

her family is obviously ignorant. some1 shud stone her father 2 death

Ws

Im not refering AT ALL to the origional case (about the turkish father) he should be punished for murdering a innocent child.

If you (and Tahiyah) actually READ what i write instead of writing for the sake of it you will recall that i said in the case of the Turkish Girl who was raped she should never have been punished at all - how can you punish someone for a crime they did not do?

Rather the two Rapists who forced her and stole her Viginity (and the Honor of her family in so doing) should be found and killed.

The punishment for Rape is Death.

Kohr Ah - according to Shariah Sex outside marriage is punishable by Lashes. A affair after you are married is punishable by stoning to death (for the married person(s).

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Xaxerian
[b]Honour killings have no place at all within the Muslim religion and is strictly forbidden .../B]

After one post after another it's beginning to look more that the religion is involved nevertheless...

[Zaman]

I request you all... if you ARE going to post in this thread at least take the time to read it from begining and READ EVERY WORD I WROTE before accusing me of things i did not say - which is a Sin in itself.

let me just answer these accusations then inshallah we can continue our debate... because the issue is debatable -


Originally posted by Chained_Water
this thread is really disturbing..

The disturbing thing about this thread is i have learnt people like to post without reading what someone has to say, they probably skim-read it and then pass judgement without understanding.

on the one hand we have muslims implying its worse for a woman to commit zina than it is for a man.. I'd like to see some proofs from Quran or Sunnah to support that view..

Oh really? Such as who? I certainly didnt. Which Muslim would imply that? Anyone who knows what Zina is knows that it can never be a 1-way thing. Because if it is then its Rape.

then some muslims being sympathetic to parents MURDERING their own children simply because that child commits a sin..
WHY o why do so many muslims have this huge complex about the virginity of women..? and I don't think that's an exagerated statement at all, I mean we've had the threads about how in some muslim countries its standard practice for bedsheets to be checked for blood after "the first night" when a women gets married.. sicko's

Like who? Proove it. who mentioned anything about bedsheets? I do however stress the importance of Virginity before you marry for the first time. Your first Wife/Husband should be a Virgin - provided you are both MARRYING for the first time.

and then people have this sypathetic view towards murderous parents.. its hurts you more if your daughter gets impregnated than if your son impregnates a girl? if that's true you have serious issues.. Allah(swt) hasn't made separate rules in this respect for men and women, zina is forbidden to both males and females and the punishments for sex outside marriage are same for them under Shariah.. when there is no Shariah and trials do not take place to PROVE the sin being committed, then any old fool cannot go around killing women..

I agree with you, but out of interest WHO said such a thing? That its okay for Men but evil for Women? Please show us WHERE.

you can't just say its worse for a woman and be sympathetic towards her parents for killing her..

Who said that? again false accusations. I seriously wonder if you READ ANYTHING? or just decided to throw in your 2 cents from what other ppl have written.

it's true, they wouldn't kill their son for it half the time.. so do they even give a crap that she's disobeyed Allah(swt)? NO.. cuz if they did they'd care just as much about the son doing it.. do they punish her for disobeying Allah(swt)? NO.. they punish her for damaging their honour!? SO they THEMSELVES disobey Allah(swt) by committing murder, to restore their "honour".. how totally stupidly nuts is that?

How do you KNOW they wouldent kill their Son Half the time? Have you ever been in that situation? I gave the example of Omar (ra) who KILLED HIS SON OVER ALCOHOL - which is considered less a crime then Zina. You are passing judgement on Muslims without any kind of proof and being Sexist.

all parties in these kind of incidences should learn to fear Allah(swt).. and put his commandments before their own desires or their own human pride.. how does murdering your child restore your honour? I really don't understand how that works in their heads.

If your Child comits Zina - what is the Islamic punishment? first tell me this.

last of all, muslims should also realise, it's not for them to decide what is and isn't a suitable punishment for adulterers and fornicators.. it's been made clear by Quran and Sunnah.. and if you have problems with it, take it up with Allah(swt) ..astaghfirullah.. where punishments are clear its not our place to say such and such is too harsh.. it's been decreed.. and we are not in a place to change the law, but to follow it.

Exactly. Now you are coming to the point. Now if you could tell us all what are the Islamic punishments according to the Laws of Allah? because i keep on repeating them but they are falling on deaf ears - and instead ppl find nothing better to do but throw false accusations at me.

If i have said something Unislamic, Barbaric, Disgusting, Revolting ... etc etc please Quote it here - otherwise control your fingers!

[Khuzamah]

Zaman you know she didn't even mention your name, yet you're coming accross really defensive...

Lets not get into arguments about who said what and bla bla bla :) cos whats the point?

[Zaman]

Originally posted by Khuzamah
Zaman you know she didn't even mention your name, yet you're coming accross really defensive...

Lets not get into arguments about who said what and bla bla bla :) cos whats the point?

Exactly, and i know she didnt mention any names - and i respect her for that - but lets be honest... among ourselves... who else could she possibly be refering to? :rolleyes:

Still i will let it pass, i understand we all have our views on certain sensitive issues like these, and i appreciate the fact that there can be misunderstandings.

wsalaam.

[Chained_Water]

*yawn* if you want to keep ranting and raving zaman go ahead.. looks like you're having fun :rolleyes:

if you read my post maybe YOU'LL notice I haven't said such and such has said this or that.. i said a "sympathetic view" and "implying it's worse for women" ..is that levelling accusations at you? all i said is thats what is coming across in this thread, whether its intended i do not know

it's simply the impression i got reading some posts.. there seems to be more softy understanding tone in some posts than condemning the act of the parents..

why don't you reread my post and where you see me accusing YOU of anything.. then ask me why..

until then feel free to keep ranting and raving to your hearts content.. but rest assured i have much better things to do than accuse you of anything :)

[Chained_Water]

Originally posted by Justcurious
In other words, a man also has to have four witnesses in case something is levelled against him?

basically there have to be four witnesses to the act.. if a man is accused of rape the woman has to produce four witnesses..

if the man and woman are accused of adultery.. those who are accusing them have to produce four witnesses..

again this is because of the severity of the punishments and how big a sin it is.. there has to be no doubt at all.. if there is any doubt.. than the accused won't be punished.

so even if there are four witnesses, if they are of dubious character and deemed untrustworthy, so if there's doubt if the truth of any of their testimonies.. then the accused won't be punished..

[Zaman]

Originally posted by Chained_Water
*yawn* if you want to keep ranting and raving zaman go ahead.. looks like you're having fun :rolleyes:

if you read my post maybe YOU'LL notice I haven't said such and such has said this or that.. i said a "sympathetic view" and "implying it's worse for women" ..is that levelling accusations at you? all i said is thats what is coming across in this thread, whether its intended i do not know

it's simply the impression i got reading some posts.. there seems to be more softy understanding tone in some posts than condemning the act of the parents..

why don't you reread my post and where you see me accusing YOU of anything.. then ask me why..

until then feel free to keep ranting and raving to your hearts content.. but rest assured i have much better things to do than accuse you of anything :)

lol - OK. We will call it a day. :)

[Raven]

Originally posted by Chained_Water
basically there have to be four witnesses to the act.. if a man is accused of rape the woman has to produce four witnesses..

if the man and woman are accused of adultery.. those who are accusing them have to produce four witnesses..

again this is because of the severity of the punishments and how big a sin it is.. there has to be no doubt at all.. if there is any doubt.. than the accused won't be punished.

so even if there are four witnesses, if they are of dubious character and deemed untrustworthy, so if there's doubt if the truth of any of their testimonies.. then the accused won't be punished..

You do realize one possible scenario of this, right?

A woman could be raped and get pregnant. People can prove she had intercourse via the pregnancy. If she cannot prove she was raped, wouldn't she be punished for having intercourse?

[Chained_Water]

no, the baby doesn't count as a witness.. her word would count for more.. i'm sure we have explanations and fatwa's on this somewhere on the forum..

basically there are still not four witnesses.. so no she can't be punished.. because there is doubt.. and when there is doubt, there is no punishment

[Chained_Water]

Originally posted by Zaman
lol - OK. We will call it a day. :)
wow a smile, lol :D

[Tahiyah]

Originally posted by Zaman

If you (and Tahiyah) actually READ what i write instead of writing for the sake of it you will recall that i said in the case of the Turkish Girl who was raped she should never have been punished at all - how can you punish someone for a crime they did not do?



and Tahiyah? umm... dont be putting nothin on me. i didnt even read the thread. my comment and disgust was due to the original post alone.. i didnt even notice what you said.. until now.

i expressed such frustration because i am so annoyed with these absurd actions being related to Islam.

and i am not so sure about this 4 witnesses thing in the case of rape. i am sure this applies to adultery, not rape. Allahu Alim. I will have to look it up and get back at ya on that one.

these days its not hard to prove a rape, if a woman knows or is able to find her attacker, simple dna testing will prove it. (thats why its so important for women to get immediate medical attention following a rape).

as far as adultery is concerned, the four witnesses law is a good thing. it makes it hard to prove, and the four witnesses have to see the actual act of the intercourse. some people of the prophets (saw) time even came to Rasool (saw) and confessed to adultery and he would turn his head from them and ignore them. and they would repeat it, and he would say, perhaps you only fondled so and so.. the person would say no... i am an adulterer, the prophet would say, perhaps it was only a kiss. this shows you that the prophet desired for the person to repent and conceal what he did wrong.

revealing he was an adulterer meant he wanted to be stoned to death so he could be forgiven for the act.

this is abrahamic law... stoning for adultery goes way back, its not something that was revealed only in the time of Rasool (saw).

rape is another story.

[abdulhakeem]

Originally posted by abdulhakeem
Amnesty International launches global campaign to stop violence against women - a 'cancer' and 'human rights atrocity'

5th March 2004

Violence against women is a "cancer" eating away at the core of every society, in every country of the world, Amnesty International Secretary General Irene Khan said today (5 March), as she launched the organisation's new global campaign to stop violence against women.

Speaking at a press conference in London, Irene Khan said:

"Violence against women is a human rights atrocity. From the battlefield to the bedroom, women are at risk. Governments are failing to address the real 'terror' of our world that millions of women face every day."

Publishing a new report outlining the endemic scale and urgency of the problem, Amnesty International emphasised that at least one in three women in the world will suffer serious violence in their lifetime.

The 122-page report, It's in our hands - Stop violence against women, shows that whether in times of peace or war, women are being subjected to atrocities simply because they are women. The report challenges governments to act - both to enact new laws and enforce existing ones that are often ignored - to prevent millions of women being beaten, raped, murdered, assaulted, mutilated and even denied the right to ever exist.

The human rights organisation is highlighting the true scale of violence against women - from rape in conflict zones to conflict in the family - and calling for urgent action to prevent further deaths, injuries and discrimination.

'Cultural' practices such as female genital mutilation (already affecting 135 million girls and women globally, with two million more at risk every year) and so-called 'honour' killings (thousands of deaths in dozens of countries every year) are major factors in violence against women around the world, and Amnesty International is calling for these to be generally acknowledged and treated as human rights crimes.

The human rights organisation's campaign is insisting that 'living in safety is a universal right, not a privilege' for women. Cases highlighted by Amnesty International include:


Kavira Muaulu (Democratic Republic of Congo)
Kavira, a farmer in her 50s, was raped in May 2003 by a soldier who broke into her home near a military camp in Mangangu, near Beni in north-Kivu province in Congo. After she lodged a complaint against the perpetrator he returned with other soldiers, seized her in her fields, tied her up and beat her, knocking out a tooth and injuring her jaw. The rapist had been ordered by his military commander to pay Kavira three US dollars in compensation, an order that was ignored. Kavira persisted with her complaints to a local district governor. Soldiers returned and bayoneted Kavira in the stomach. Kavira's case is not unusual. The UN estimate that 5,000 women in south-Kivu were raped in the five months to February 2003 alone, averaging 40 rapes a day.
Fatima (Iraq))
Fatima (not her real name), 19-years-old, was shot in the legs by her husband in May 2003 after she tried to leave an abusive situation and return to her own family. Fatima was married at the age of 12, treated as a servant and regularly beaten in her husband's family home. Numerous people witnessed the shooting. However, no action has been taken against the husband, even after Fatima was treated in hospital for her injuries.
Irene Khan said:

"Violence threatens women in multiple forms during conflict. From the female child soldiers who are routinely raped by their own troop, and the civilian women and girls who are mutilated, raped and murdered as a weapon of war, to the escalation in violence in the family as troops return home - armed conflict is having a devastating and desperate impact on women that goes far beyond the inherent violence of war."

Up to 70 per cent of the world's female murder victims are killed by male partners, and Amnesty International is linking violence in the family (often called 'domestic violence') with other harmful community-based practices and acts of violence that see girls and women being abused and killed on every continent.

Irene Khan said:

"Behind closed doors and in secret, women are subjected to violence by their partners and close relatives, too ashamed and afraid to report it and seldom taken seriously when they do."

In the UK, for example, violence against women in the family is at crisis point, with one call to the emergency services a minute and two women killed every week. Recent statistics show that less than three in 100 incidents reported to the police result in conviction, and Amnesty International is urging the UK authorities to implement and support programmes to change entrenched attitudes as well as laws.

Amnesty International paid tribute to the brave work undertaken by women's organisations around the world in recent decades and also stressed the key role of men in forwarding its campaign to stop violence against women.

Irene Khan said:

"As a human rights organisation we will mobilise our members and supporters around the world. We will engage men as well as women. Men must play a crucial part if we are to end violence against women.

"Violence against women is not normal, legal nor acceptable and should never be tolerated or justified. It can and must be stopped."

Selected key statistics
One in three women in the world will suffer violence in their lifetime
Each year two million girls aged between five and 15 are introduced into the commercial sex market and 700,000 women and girls are trafficked for sexual exploitation
At least 1,000 women and girls a year are killed in 'honour crimes' in Pakistan alone - despite under-reporting a minimum of one new case a day (on average) is reported by the Pakistani newspapers
In India there are approximately 15,000 dowry deaths per year, mostly disguised as kitchen fires
'Honour' defences (partial or complete) are legal in Peru, Bangladesh, Argentina, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, the West Bank and Venezuela
Around 135 million girls and women globally are estimated to have undergone female genital mutilation - a further two million girls a year are at risk of undergoing FGM
FGM occurs in 28 African countries, though only 14 African countries have adopted laws banning the practice
97% of married women in Egypt aged 15 to 49 have undergone FGM In and around Juarez, Mexico at least 370 women (many low-paid workers in assembly plants for multinational companies) have been murdered in the last 10 years - nearly 140 of these were sexually tortured before they were killed
Between 250,000 and 500,000 women, or about 20% of women, were raped during the 1994 Rwanda genocide
In Bosnia and Herzegovina 20,000-50,000 women were raped during five months of conflict in 1992
94% of the households displaced by conflict in Sierra Leone surveyed by Physicians for Human Rights had experienced sexual assaults, including rape, torture and sexual slavery
One in five women in the world will be the victim of rape or attempted rape in her lifetime
Marital rape is recognised specifically as a crime in only 51 countries according to UNIFEM information
In the USA a woman is raped every 90 seconds
In Chile only 3% of all raped women report the incident to the police
In South Africa in 2000 52,975 rapes were reported, with the 12-17-year age group being the most vulnerable - the rape conviction rate is 7%
In the UK there were 14,000 recorded rapes in 2003 (8% up on 2002); only one in five rape attacks are reported to the police; 167 women are raped every day
79 countries have no (or unknown) legislation against domestic violence a UNIFEM survey has found
About 70% of female murder victims are killed by their male partners
In 1999 in the USA, over half a million women were the victims of domestic violence; a woman is assaulted (usually by her husband/partner) every 15 seconds and four women die each day as a result of violence in the family - approximately 1,400 women a year
Domestic violence accounts for more death and ill-health than cancer or traffic accidents in Europe
The Russian government estimates that 14,000 women were killed by their partners or relatives in 1999, yet the country has no law specifically addressing domestic violence
In the UK one in four women will experience violence at the hands of a partner during their lives, the emergency services receive one call a minute about violence in the family and two women a week are killed
China's last census (2000) revealed a ratio of new-born girls to boys at 100:119 (the biological norm is 100:103)
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/deliver/document/15231

'One in Five' Women Abused by Partner (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32723)

[AbuMubarak]

personally, i think abortion is worse than honor killings

and abortion is legal in america

go figure

[Tahiyah]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
personally, i think abortion is worse than honor killings

and abortion is legal in america

go figure


abortion is sometimes necessary. an honour killing is never necessary.

[Tahiyah]

stop changing these threads around like this, its so annoying!!!!

[AbuMubarak]

no one is changing them, there are many with the same theme

sorry to annoy you

[Tahiyah]

are you combining the posts? i could of sworn that this was in the general thread under an honour killing in turkey?

[Tahiyah]

Originally posted by Raven
With all due respect, doesn't rape have to be proved by 4 male witnesses? If it can't be proven, doesn't it just count as Zina?

Raven..

I looked around for this information and finally found it. Yay! this is a very educational read. please, muslims and non muslims take the time to read the following article. its very clear on the islamic "perspective" of rape, incest, zinah and even spousal rape:


Rape & Incest: Islamic Perspective

Incest and rape are not new in this day and age; these problems have always existed and will continue to exist if not confronted face on. If you have ever worked with an incest, sexual abuse or rape survivor you will never be able to forget the devastating impact it has on all aspects of their life, nor will you be able to sit back and do nothing about this issue. These are serious crimes that corrode the fabric of family and society and cannot go un-addressed, since these problems do exist in Muslim families it is about time that we address it openly and take action to put an end to it.

To fully understand this issue we need to examine what Islâm teaches us about the value of human life.

Islâm views human life as a sacred gift from God. The Qur’ân repeatedly stresses the sanctity of life (hurmat al hayat). The life of every single individual regardless of gender, age, nationality or religion is worthy of respect. In verses referring to the sanctity of life, the term used is ‘nafs’ (soul, life); and there is no distinction made in that soul being young or old, male or female, Muslim or non-muslim.

Sûrah al An'am 6.151:
"Do not take any human being's life, (the life) which God has declared to be sacred - otherwise than in (the pursuit of) justice: this has He enjoined upon you so that you might use your reason."
(Also check: Sûrah al Isra 17.33 & Sûrah al Ma'idah 5.32)

Qur’ânic teachings encompass every aspect of life; hence it does not limit the definition of life to the physical body only, but includes the mental, emotional and spiritual aspects as well. There are about 150 verses that define the term ‘nafs’ in various ways making it clear that the concept of ‘life’ is not limited to mere physical existence.

Historically, Islam has addressed serious issues openly and sought to correct actions that constitute harm or ‘zulm’ (ie: cruelty and abuse) to the dignity of humankind. Human life and respect for it has been stressed unstintingly, regardless of age or gender. As a general rule, Islâm forbids all ‘zulm’, be it physical, mental, emotional or spiritual:

Sûrah al An'am 6.120
”Abandon all harm (ithm), whether committed openly or in secret.”
(Check Sûrah al A`raf 7:33)

Sûrah al 49:11-12 points out categorically that emotionally abusive language and behavior is not acceptable.
"You who believe do not let one (set of) people make fun of another set. Do not defame one another. Do not insult by using nicknames. And do not backbite or speak ill of one another."

In the last address to his community, the Prophet (saw) said: "Your lives and properties are forbidden to one another till you meet your Lord on the Day of Resurrection… Regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust… Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you... You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity." The Prophet (saw) did not prohibit only the unlawful encroachment of one another’s life and property, but also honor and respect.

Considering that human life is to be valued and cruelty is forbidden, what is the Islamic perspective on incest and rape?

According to Islâm, a woman has to be respected and protected under all circumstances, whether she belongs to your own nation or to the nation of an enemy, whether she follows your religion or belongs to some other religion or has no religion at all. A Muslim cannot outrage her under any circumstances. All promiscuous relationships have been forbidden to him, irrespective of the status or position of the woman, whether the woman is a willing or an unwilling partner to the act. The words of the Holy Qur’ân in this respect are: "Do not approach (the bounds of) adultery" (17:32). Heavy punishment has been prescribed for this crime, and the order has not been qualified by any conditions. Since the violation of chastity of a woman is forbidden in Islam, a Muslim who perpetrates this crime cannot escape punishment. (Maudoodi)

The Quran has, in various ways and in different contexts; impressed on men that they must observe the limits set by God (Hudûd Allah) in respect to women and must not encroach upon their rights in either marriage or divorce. In all situations it is the men who are reminded, corrected and reprimanded, over and over again, to be generous to women and to be kind, compassionate, fair and just in their dealings with women. Even in divorce, when the chances of anger and vindictiveness are high, it is stressed that men are to separate with grace, equity and generosity.

Forbidding cruelty against children and women is apparent from rulings against female infanticide and rights of inheritance given even to an unborn child; and the kindness mandated even when divorcing your wife. There are numerous ahâdîth about the rights of children to respect and dignity. The same holds true for respect and the unprecedented rights given to women.

Relevant verses from the Quran:
Sûrah an Nâs 4.119
'O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will...'

Sûrah an Nûr 24.33
'... And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your slave women into whoredom if they are desirous of marriage, and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled (to submit in their helplessness), God will be much forgiving, a dispenser of grace (to them).

During the time of the Prophet (saw) punishment was inflicted on the rapist on the solitary evidence of the woman who was raped by him. Wa'il ibn Hujr reports of an incident when a woman was raped. Later, when some people came by, she identified and accused the man of raping her. They seized him and brought him to Allah's messenger, who said to the woman, "Go away, for Allâh has forgiven you," but of the man who had raped her, he said, "Stone him to death." (Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud)

During the time when Umar (raa) was the Khalifah, a woman accused his son Abu Shahmah of raping her; she brought the infant borne of this incident with her to the mosque and publicly spoke about what had happened. Umar (raa) asked his son who acknowledged committing the crime and was duly punished right there and then. There was no punishment given to the woman. (Rauf)

Islamic legal scholars interpret rape as a crime in the category of Hiraba. In ‘Fiqh-us-Sunnah’, hiraba is described as: ‘a single person or group of people causing public disruption, killing, forcibly taking property or money, attacking or raping women (hatk al ‘arad), killing cattle, or disrupting agriculture.’

The famous jurist, Ibn Hazm, had the widest definition of hiraba, defining a hiraba offender as: ‘One who puts people in fear on the road, whether or not with a weapon, at night or day, in urban areas or in open spaces, in the palace of a caliph or a mosque, with or without accomplices, in the desert or in the village, in a large or small city, with one or more people… making people fear that they’ll be killed, or have money taken, or be raped (hatk al ‘arad)… whether the attackers are one or many."

Al-Dasuqi held that if a person forced a woman to have sex, his actions would be deemed as committing hiraba. In addition, the Maliki judge Ibn ‘Arabi, relates a story in which a group was attacked and a woman in their party was raped. Responding to the argument that the crime did not constitute hiraba because no money was taken and no weapons used, Ibn ‘Arabi replied indignantly that "hiraba with the private parts" is much worse than hiraba involving the taking of money, and that anyone would rather be subjected to the latter than the former.

The crime of rape is classified not as a subcategory of ‘zina’ (consensual adultery), but rather as a separate crime of violence under hiraba. This classification is logical, as the "taking" is of the victim’s property (the rape victim’s sexual autonomy) by force. In Islam, sexual autonomy and pleasure is a fundamental right for both women and men (Ghazâlî); taking by force someone’s right to control the sexual activity of one’s body is thus a form of hiraba.

Rape as hiraba is a violent crime that uses sexual intercourse as a weapon. The focus in a hiraba prosecution is the accused rapist and his intent and physical actions, and not second-guessing the consent of the rape victim. Hiraba does not require four witnesses to prove the offense, circumstantial evidence, medical data and expert testimony form the evidence used to prosecute such crimes.

Islamic legal responses to rape are not limited to a criminal prosecution for hiraba. Islamic jurisprudence also provides an avenue for civil redress for a rape survivor in its law of "jirah" (wounds). Islamic law designates ownership rights to each part of one’s body, and a right to corresponding compensation for any harm done unlawfully to any of those parts. Islamic law calls this the ‘law of jirah’ (wounds). Harm to a sexual organ, therefore, entitles the person harmed to appropriate financial compensation under classical Islamic jirah jurisprudence. Each school of Islamic law has held that where a woman is harmed through sexual intercourse (some include marital intercourse), she is entitled to financial compensation for the harm. Further, where this intercourse was without the consent of the woman, the perpetrator must pay the woman both the basic compensation for the harm, as well as an additional amount based on the ‘diyya’ (financial compensation for murder, akin to a wrongful death payment).

Islamic law, with its radical introduction of a woman’s right to own property as a fundamental right, employs a gender-egalitarian attitude in this area of jurisprudence. In fact, there is a hadith specifically directed to transforming the early Muslim population out of this patriarchal attitude of male financial compensation for female sexual activity. During the time of Prophet Muhammad, a young man committed zina with his employer’s wife. The father of the young man gave one hundred goats and a maid as compensation to the employer, who accepted it. When the case was reported to the Prophet, he ordered the return of the goats and the maid to the young man’s father and prosecuted the adulterer for zina (Abu Daud 1990, 3: Bk. 33, No. 4430; Bukhâri 1985, 8:Bk. 81, Nos. 815, 821, 826).

Early Islam thus established that there should be no tolerance of the attitude that a woman’s sexual activity is something to be bartered, pawned, gossiped about, or owned by the men in her life. Personal responsibility of every human being for their own actions is a fundamental principle in Islamic thought.

Marital Rape
The Quran is very clear that the basis of a marital relationship is love and affection between the spouses, not power or control. Rape is unacceptable in such a relationship.

Sûrah al Baqarah 2.223
'Your wives are your tilth; go then unto your tilth as you may desire, but first provide something for your souls*, and remain conscious of God, and know that your are destined to meet Him...'
* Note in Muhammad Asad's translation: 'a spiritual relationship between man and woman is postulated as the indispensable basis of sexual relations.'

Sûrah ar Rum 30.21
"And among His wonders is this: He creates for you mates out of your own kind, so that your might incline towards then, and He engenders love and tenderness between you: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think!

Sûrah al Baqarah 2.187
"... They are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them."

Sûrah al Nisa 4.19
"... And consort with your wives in a goodly manner, for if you dislike them, it may well be that you dislike something which God might yet make a source of abundant good."

"Is there recognition of marital rape in Islam?
In the context of jirah, it would appear so: where there is any physical harm or disease caused to a spouse, there may be a claim for jirah compensation. The law of jirah provides for compensation for physical harm between spouses, and supports Islamic legislation against domestic abuse. Even in these discussions of appropriate jirah compensation, the question of the injured party’s consent plays a central role. Some Islamic jurists considered consent to be presumed by virtue of the marital relationship, while others maintain that where harm occurs, it is an assault, regardless of the consent, and therefore compensation is due. In our modern era, one might take these precedents and their premium focus on consent and apply the Islamic principle of sexual autonomy to conclude that any sex without consent is harmful, as a dishonoring of the unwilling party’s sexual autonomy. Thus, modern Islamic jurists and legislators, taking a gender-egalitarian perspective, might conclude that Islamic law does recognize marital rape, and assign the appropriate injunctions and compensation for this personally devastating harm." (Qureshi)

An often misquoted and abused hadith that is used to tyrannize women is that women cannot and should not say no to their husband when he approaches them Women are advised not to turn away from their husbands except if they have their period or any other reasonable excuse. So much so that she is to break her voluntary fast if her husband approaches her. And if they do angels will curse them. However, this hadith is not quoted with the complementary one that advises men of the same consideration.

In the same manner men are advised that meeting the needs of their wives takes precedence over voluntary worship. Narrated Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As: "Prophet Muhammad (saw) said, “O Abdullah! I have been informed that you fast all the day and stand in prayer all night?” I said, ‘Yes, O Allah's Apostle!’ He said, “Do not do that! Observe the fast sometimes and also leave them at other times, stand up for the prayer at night and also sleep at night. Your body has a right over you and your wife has a right over you.” (Bukhâri)

To a certain degree these ahâdîth are used to confuse and distract from the issue, since rape does not have anything to do with permission or lack of permission. In a marriage abusive or forced sexual activity cannot be justified by abusing this hadith. Rape is defined as unwanted, violent and forced sex, whether this occurs in a marital context or outside it. The definition of rape does not change because of the relationship.

It is important to not confuse the issue of mutual rights that a couple has on each other with the misguided, distorted and misogynist assumption that women become a husband's property. Islam does not allow for or tolerate ownership of human beings. Human dignity does not allow that any one person has the right to own, mind/body/soul, another human being... and Islam demands that all human beings respect the humanity of everyone.

Incest & Child Abuse
The Quran clearly outlines those with whom marriage is not permitted, we can extrapolate from it that any sexual relation with these would be unacceptable.

Sûrah an Nisa 4:23:
Prohibited for you (in marriage) are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, the sisters of your fathers, the sisters of your mothers, the daughters of your brother, the daughters of your sister, your nursing mothers, the girls who nursed from the same woman as you, the mothers of your wives, the daughters of your wives with whom you have consummated the marriage - if the marriage has not been consummated, you may marry the daughter. Also prohibited for you are the women who were married to your genetic sons. Also, you shall not be married to two sisters at the same time - but do not break up existing marriages. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

This includes your foster parents, siblings and children.

Al Hasan reports: ‘If somebody commits illegal intercourse with his sister, his punishment is the same as for any other person who commits such a crime’. (Bukhâri Vol. 8 pp 526)

Thus, these same laws mentioned above in cases of rape would be equally applicable, and incest can be prosecuted as a crime within the bounds of Islamic law.

According to Islam, all aspects of life, ie: the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual, are sacred and must be respected. No gender or relationship has been given the power or right to hurt or harm the other. Domestic violence, rape and incest are all violent and criminal abuses that are outside the bounds of what is permitted in Islam and there is absolutely no justification for it whatsoever.



References:
-Ghazâlî; “Ihya Ulum ud Din”
-Hasan, Riffat; “Religious Human Rights in Global Perspective: Religious Perspectives” John Witte, Jr. and Johan D. van der Vyver Eds. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 1996
-Maudoodi, Abu al Ala; “Human Rights in Islam” The Islamic Foundation UK 1976, 1993
-Qureshi, Asifa LLM; “Her Honor: An Islamic Critique of the Rape Laws of Pakistan from a Woman-Sensitive Perspective”
-Rahman, Afzal ur; "Role of Muslim Women in Society" Seerah Foundation, London, 1986
-Rauf, Muhammad Abdul; “Umar al Faruq” Al Saadawi Publications, 1998

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Tahiyah
abortion is sometimes necessary. an honour killing is never necessary.

actually in the case of adultery it is.

[Tahiyah]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
actually in the case of adultery it is.



stoning in the case of adultery is to restore honour? hows that work? if a persons spouse commits adultery and is then stoned to death.. this will give the person honour? i wouldnt feel honoured. i'd be mad cause he committed the act, but i wouldnt feel honoured by his death. i dunno, maybe its different for men?

isnt stoning done to clean the person of the sin of adultery?

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Tahiyah
stoning in the case of adultery is to restore honour?...

isnt stoning done to clean the person of the sin of adultery?

you just answered your own question.

[Tahiyah]

oh... so its to restore your own honour?

[Ali_Khan]

:rolleyes:

i give up.

[Tahiyah]

awww come on, dont give up on me now, we've only just begun brother.. i dont give up on you, (i am on a quest to soften your heart):p

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Honour killings is against Islam.

For more information, kindly consult this extremely informative Honour Killings against Islam PDF (http://www.mcb.org.uk/honour_killings.pdf).

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

The recent tragic murders of two young British Muslim women have once again focused media and public attention on the subject of honour killings. The MCB office has received a steady stream of media enquiries seeking clarification on the stance of Islam on this subject. We have made it very clear to reporters and would like to take this opportunity to re-state that honour killings are in no way, shape or form condoned by Islam. On the contrary, Islam categorically denounces vigilantism, rather encouraging mercy, justice and the rule of law.

For more information and the full PDF from which the aforementioned reference is derived from, kindly download the highly informative Honour Killings: A Crime against Islam PDF. (http://www.mcb.org.uk/honour_killings.pdf)

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Tahiyah
awww come on, dont give up on me now, we've only just begun brother.. i dont give up on you, (i am on a quest to soften your heart):p

What on earth are u on about? Anyway if u actually read what u said u would realise u gave the answer to your question by saying this:

"isnt stoning done to clean the person of the sin of adultery?"


:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Tahiyah]

ugh.. i give up too. :1peace:

[Ebony]

hw likely is it tht a rape wud occur in the presence of 4 witnesses?
if tht ws the case, wouldnt those witnesses come2 the aid of the girl instead of watching?

:scratch:

[Ebony]

http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hk.html

Position Paper on "Honor Killings"

Due to recent media attention, the problem of “honor killings” has come under increasing global scrutiny. In various countries throughout the world, particularly in the Middle East and parts of South Asia, women who bring dishonor to their families because of sexual indiscretions are forced to pay a terrible price at the hands of male family members. Attempted murder and other forms of corporal punishment have been reported. The most severe manifestations of punishment affect only a small percentage of women, even though the notion of family honor and shame is extremely important in most communities of the Muslim world. Women from other faith groups may also be subject to similar attitudes from within their own communities in those countries. Clearly, the prevailing view that devalues and belittles women is derived from sociocultural factors that are justified by a distorted and erroneous interpretation of religion, especially of Islam.

Islam recognizes and celebrates the inherent dignity bestowed by God upon all human beings regardless of race, ethnicity, gender or religion. The Qur’an is explicit in its emphasis on the equality of women and men before God:


And their Lord has accepted of them and answered them, “Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, whether male or female, you are members, one of another…” (3:195; see also 33:35)

Individual accountability before God is stressed throughout the Qur’an, beginning with the story of Adam and Eve: as a result of their transgression (committed together and simultaneously) they were banished from Paradise and made to toil on Earth. God chose to forgive them both and so their sin is not inherited by subsequent generations. Similarly, as exemplified in the following verse:


Whoever chooses to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good; and whoever goes astray, goes but astray to his own hurt; and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden (17:15)

It is clear that one individual, no matter how guilty, cannot transfer that guilt to another. So for a woman who does engage in illicit sexual activity (zina), she and she alone bears the consequences as determined by God.


The problem of “honor killings” is not a problem of morality or of ensuring that women maintain their own personal virtue; rather, it is a problem of domination, power and hatred of women who, in these instances, are viewed as nothing more than servants to the family, both physically and symbolically.


Islam is clear on its prohibition of sexual relationships outside of marriage. This prohibition does not distinguish between men and women, even though, in some countries, women are uniformly singled out for punishment of sexual crimes while the men, even rapists, may be treated with impunity. In order for a case to even be brought before a Muslim court, several strict criteria must be met. The most important is that any accusation of illicit sexual behavior must have been seen by four witnesses; and they must have been witness to the act of sexual intercourse itself. Other forms of intimacy do not constitute zina and therefore are not subject to any legal consequences even though they are not appropriate and are considered sinful.


On the other hand, a woman falsely accused of zina has in her support the Qur’an, which spells out harsh consequences for those accusers who are unable to support their allegations with four witnesses. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was known for his clemency, even if the accusations met the criteria, for he recognized the seriousness of the matter. In addition, there is no evidence whatsoever that he condoned any form of retribution that singled out women and he was swift to ensure that those accused of any crime received due process to guarantee justice.


Unfortunately, the legal safeguards to protect women and men from indiscriminate and unlawful enforcement of presumed Islamic injunctions have been forgotten. Indeed, the legal system and law enforcement agencies including police officers and prison guards, have been implicated in the perpetuation of the problem by their willful lenience towards men who have carried out an assault in the name of “honor” and by their abuse and denigration of women who stand accused.


Muslims today must unequivocally reject this distortion of Islam that is used to violate the most basic Islamic rights of human decency, integrity and justice. Unwillingness on the part of the Muslim community to address these issues in a forthright and unapologetic manner is borne out of an inherent distrust of perceived “Western” attempts to taint the image of Islam in the interest of global politics. This is no excuse for us to turn a blind eye to injustices committed against Muslims and others, especially when the perpetrators are members of the same faith.

Confronting the problem of “honor killings” and other crimes that disproportionately affect women requires a change in attitude that pervades all levels of society where such attacks occur. Muslim leaders can provide an important example to their followers by taking an unequivocal stand against behavior that is in direct violation of Islam. In addition, legal reform must occur with the intention to protect the victims and punish the perpetrators, all totally possible within a legitimate Islamic legal framework. Concomitant attention must be paid to meeting basic human needs and solving problems stemming from poverty and illiteracy that are often at the root of disturbing social trends that seek out the most disenfranchised to serve as scapegoats.


O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: For God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do. (4:135)

[Chained_Water]

how likely is it that even adultery would happen in the presense of four trustworthy muslim witnesses.. let alone rape..

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Tahiyah
abortion is sometimes necessary. an honour killing is never necessary. abortion is always killing of an innocent, honor killing may have validity in some cases

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Chained_Water
thi
then some muslims being sympathetic to parents MURDERING their own children simply because that child commits a sin..
WHY o why do so many muslims have this huge complex about the virginity of women..? i am not in support of honor killings, and each one has its own particulrars

further victimizing a rape victim by ostrization is purely dumb to me

choking the life out of your child for committing zina or being a stripper, or having a kafir boyfriend, or something along those lines, i could understand, though i would not do that to my own daughters, nor advocate anyone doing that to their daughters

part of respect is honor, if you honor your parents, it pains you to see them hurt, you would prefer to be hurt

also, you dont see the queen of england changing a flat tire, not because she cant, but the people under her respect her (that is a gross generalization, i have no idea what these royal people do, other than date muslim men)

as someone who came into islam from kufr, i cherish the virginity of muslim women, and Allah cherishes it so the degree that there is a punishment for slander of muslim women

the way a society treats its women is a sign of how they respect her

some societies let their women walk around naked, and thus dont mind if they fornicate, have boyfriends, live with men, become lesbians, abortions, dress like sluts---they call this freedom

islam, as dictated by Allah and His Messenger, demands the highest respect of women, men dont want to marry a tramp, they want to marry virgins, but they cant find them, so they settle for whats available (western men)

i want for my boys and girls to be virgins, not just the girls

so virginity (for boys and girls) is very important for me

maybe not to others

[outlandish]

why always the fuss about women,why dont they kill some men too if he sleeps around or does something bad,for which they think its necessary to kill that women
such double standards,hypocrites ppl:rolleyes:
islam's laws werent made to punish women only either,their both for men AND women to respect, not just single women out and let men free

[reachin'out]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
abortion is always killing of an innocent,

yes
honor killing may have validity in some cases

no

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by outlandish
why always the fuss about women,why dont they kill some men too if he sleeps around or does something bad,for which they think its necessary to kill that women
such double standards,hypocrites ppl:rolleyes:
islam's laws werent made to punish women only either,their both for men AND women to respect, not just single women out and let men free outlandish, i dont have a problem with the same thing being applied to men

fair is fair

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
abortion is always killing of an innocent,
Originally posted by reachin'out
yes




honor killing may have validity in some cases
Originally posted by reachin'out



no
that was more of a rhetorical answer to tayiha's post, than an actual legal response

[outlandish]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
outlandish, i dont have a problem with the same thing being applied to men

fair is fair
yes but these ppl dont think as such,saw it many a times in pakistan too, if a guy did something everyone used to say ohh he is a kid,he will grow up,but if women did same,entire life she is blamed for it..

[AbuMubarak]

i wasnt talking about "these people"

and yes, there are a lot of cultural inconsistencies, even on mtv

ever notice how naked the women are, but the men have on big baggy clothes?

women are different, i know thats not what they say, but they are, and every society treats them differently, some good, some not good

but to me what is absurd is when people try to say they arent different

[Chained_Water]

women are different...?

haha that sounds so funny.. almost like saying men are different.. :rolleyes:

what is the point here? that men* as a general rule in all societies are unjust to women..

in pakistan its beating the hell out of them or killing them for honour, or treating them like they are somehow inferior to your son's... and all that being considered a norm

in the U.S its having them strip naked and dance around poles in music video's and treating them like sex objects.. and that being considered a norm..

well, it's sad, just plain sad, that in so many cases the same muslims who will rant on about paradise being at the feet of your mother will treat women unjustly..

*men not meaning every single man on the face of the earth.. just a whole lot of them

[outlandish]

yes so true sis Chained water,men and women are afcourse different,but many take different to mean women are automatically inferior to men,or less intelligent whatsoever. SO they use religion as an excuse to mistreat her,while its religion not being understood properly,but ppl's narrowminded thinking,which takes things without understanding them. Islam has always respected women,such ppl make islam look bad even. The kafirs will afcourse do what they do best,their society lacks all the morals and values, so why expect anything good from them,but the muslims even doing it,while knowing it all,is plain stupid.
And yes its the so called religious ones doing it most of the time as well...

[abdulhakeem]

Experts: Men distort religion to justify 'honor' killings

Thursday, December 9, 2004

STOCKHOLM - Men all over the world distort the teachings of Islam and Christianity to justify abusing their wives and daughters, leading to thousands of "honor" killings a year for which courts provide virtual impunity, experts say.

UN estimates show that more than 5,000 women are murdered every year in "honor"-related violence, but the real number could be much higher, said experts at an international conference near Stockholm, which ended Wednesday.

Horror stories of women and even girls as young as seven being beheaded, burned to death, maimed, beaten, raped, forced into suicide or mentally abused underscored that patriarchal violence against women pays no heed to religion.

In many cases it is rooted in cultural and tribal beliefs.

"Islam as a reason for the honor killings is rubbish," Nilofar Bakhtiar, adviser to Pakistan's prime minister on Women's' Development, told Reuters.

She blamed such violence in Pakistan on "the feudal tradition, the culture and the tribal system." She said that men found it "very convenient to say that what they don't want to do is against Islam and what they want to do is in the name of Islam."

While most cases are reported in Muslim countries, "honor" violence also occurs among Christian families, delegates said.

"After we got married, Hell started," a Christian woman from the Middle East, identified only as Maria, said in a video tape.

Beaten and raped for questioning her husband's business practices, she fled to Sweden when he threatened to sell her into prostitution.

While traditional Islamic Sharia law does impose stricter dress codes on women and stresses their household duties, one Muslim cleric at the conference said the Koran condemned abuse of the weak but its teachings had been distorted over time.

"We must educate imams and young people," said Imam Abdal Haqq of the Swedish Islamic Society. "We must free ourselves from these honor killings and the 'Islamophobia' they create."

God the Father…

But some experts believe any male-dominated religion, in which God and his prophets or apostles are male figures, creates conditions for the subordination and abuse of women.

Predominantly Catholic Poland, although free from "honor killings," has a problem with violence against women, rooted in the strong influence of the Catholic church on public life, Polish minister for gender equality Magdalena Sroda said.

"Catholicism does not directly support or oppose violence against women. But there are indirect links through culture which is strongly based on religion," Sroda told Reuters.

"It is a structure based on patriarchal domination of God the Father and the less important role of women can be seen for example in the letters of Saint Paul," she said.

Asma Jahangir, UN Special Rapporteur on religious freedom, said many courts condoned patriarchal violence by letting the perpetrators get away with "a slap on the wrist."

"In 405 documented cases of honor killings in Afghanistan so far this year only 20 arrests were made," she said.

Zorayha Rahim Sobrany, deputy minister for Women's Affairs in Afghanistan, said the concept of women's equality to men was slow to take root, but that progress was being made.

"We need time. We must move step by step. If you go too fast, the reaction is that people close themselves," she said.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=Focus&oid=64807

[abdulhakeem]

Do ‘honour killings’ have any basis in Islam?


By Pia Ohlin - STOCKHOLM
2004-12-08


Experts tell conference in Stockholm honour killings have no basis in Islam or any other religion.


So-called honour killings are most common in Muslim countries but they have no basis in Islam or any other religion for that matter, experts said as an international conference on the subject wound up in Stockholm on Wednesday.

Honour killings are often seen by relatives as the only way of avenging a family's honour if a woman is thought to have brought shame on her family by being unchaste.

But while such killings are regular occurrences in certain parts of the Middle East and Asia, experts stressed that Islam does not condone or support such crimes.

"Islam does not support these kinds of killings," said Guldal Aksit, Turkey's state minister responsible for women's issues.

Nilofar Bakhtiar, an advisor to Pakistan's prime minister on women's affairs, agreed.

"Islam gives freedom to women to choose their husband, and the freedom to divorce... There are lots of similarities between Islam and international law when it comes to women's rights," Bakhtiar said.

She said only extremists or fundamentalists would interpret Islam as condoning honour killings.

In such cases, "Islam is not being represented in the true sense," she said.

Several of the delegates said honour crimes were the result of ignorance and a misinterpretation of what honour really means.

"There is no honour in any crime," said Bakhtiar.

Aksit stressed that the factors underlying the problem varied from country to country and said it "can not be attributed to religion".

The phenomenon is increasingly being seen in Western countries, where it often affects second-generation immigrants torn between the more liberal society they have grown up in and the strict, traditional upbringing their immigrant parents want to maintain.

In Sweden, two cases have hit the headlines in recent years, including that of a 26-year-old Kurdish woman who had campaigned in the Scandinavian country against the practice and who was shot dead by her father because she had had a relationship with a Swedish man.

Some 200 government officials, experts and representatives of non-governmental organisations (NGOs) on Wednesday wound up their conference on patriarchal violence and honour crimes hosted by the Swedish government.

Delegates on Tuesday said that the practice could only be eradicated by improving women's role in society. Educating and empowering women gives them a stronger place in the family, experts said.

Statistics on the frequency of the honour killings remain shadowy, as the brutality usually occurs in the family's home and goes unreported to authorities.

The Stockholm conference is aimed at increasing the exchange of information and experiences and foster cross-border engagement and dialogue. A final declaration was to be presented later Wednesday.


http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=12085

[Moayidd]

women are different...?

haha that sounds so funny.. almost like saying men are different.. :rolleyes:

what is the point here? that men* as a general rule in all societies are unjust to women..

in pakistan its beating the hell out of them or killing them for honour, or treating them like they are somehow inferior to your son's... and all that being considered a norm

in the U.S its having them strip naked and dance around poles in music video's and treating them like sex objects.. and that being considered a norm..

well, it's sad, just plain sad, that in so many cases the same muslims who will rant on about paradise being at the feet of your mother will treat women unjustly..

*men not meaning every single man on the face of the earth.. just a whole lot of them
You are right about the amount of men who mistreat women.
Concerning honor killings, I often wonder how they can maintain the cultural ideas when they conflict so obviously with the Qur'an and our prophets (Saaws) teachings ?
Is there a different penatly for adultary based on Gender in the Qur'an?
How do they think ? Or do they ?


Peace,
Moayidd