View Full Version : Why Have Muslims Made Marriage So Difficult?
I'm not a Muslim, so please consider my thoughts and remarks in that light.
If you read about the life of the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, you get the impression that one of its strongest themes is the bond of love and trust between husband and wife.
In fact, I think an important part of the message is that it was a marriage, a successful marriage, that made it possible for the Prophet to bring His message to the world.
And yet, when I read about Islamic marriage in this forum, I have to wonder what many Muslims are thinking.
Although I can find no examples of this in the life of the Prophet, Muslims demand that a potential spouse:
1. Be acceptable to one's parents with regard to nationality, ethnicity, caste, class, and, preferably, village ancestry.
2. Enhance the family's standing among peers.
3. Enhance the family's prospects for desirable marriages for those family members as yet unwed.
4. Meet all the above requirements and in addition be at least somewhat sexually/romantically desirable.
And yet Kadhijah wanted to marry Muhammed because of His outstanding character.
The Prophet's marriages were simple, clear, and direct relationships based on mutual respect, love, and compataibility.
Why have Muslims made Islamic marriage so difficult?
Again and again in this forum I've seen young Muslims say that they're afraid of getting married. And given all the requirements that Muslims have piled onto marriage, this fear seems to me entirely reasonable.
I'm not a Muslim, so please consider my thoughts and remarks in that light.
If you read about the life of the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, you get the impression that one of its strongest themes is the bond of love and trust between husband and wife.
In fact, I think an important part of the message is that it was a marriage, a successful marriage, that made it possible for the Prophet to bring His message to the world.
And yet, when I read about Islamic marriage in this forum, I have to wonder what many Muslims are thinking.
Although I can find no examples of this in the life of the Prophet, Muslims demand that a potential spouse:
1. Be acceptable to one's parents with regard to nationality, ethnicity, caste, class, and, preferably, village ancestry.
2. Enhance the family's standing among peers.
3. Enhance the family's prospects for desirable marriages for those family members as yet unwed.
4. Meet all the above requirements and in addition be at least somewhat sexually/romantically desirable.
And yet Kadhijah wanted to marry Muhammed because of His outstanding character.
The Prophet's marriages were simple, clear, and direct relationships based on mutual respect, love, and compataibility.
Why have Muslims made Islamic marriage so difficult?
Again and again in this forum I've seen young Muslims say that they're afraid of getting married. And given all the requirements that Muslims have piled onto marriage, this fear seems to me entirely reasonable.
u are correct in what u say cashew, and most of the points u have raised are correct.
Some (not all) Muslims are stuck with culture from older generations that have put it there, therefore this clouds islam for them, usually u will find this in the older generations who enforce it on the younger, hence why the younger end up say, she/he has to be this caste or this family, this education etc etc.
Younger muslims these days are trying very hard to get away from these limiting and damaging cultural views.
Islam is simple it is WE who make it difficult for ourselves.
As for point 4 cashew, the Prophet SAW said attraction is like the 3rd or 4th most important point, after things like piousness, character etc.
Cos u cant marry someone and not feel anything for them,no? but there are some who go over the top and expect to have a husband or wife who has to eb drop dead gorjus...
I understand what you're saying. And I agree that romantic attraction is a legitimate and necessary element in marriage.
My point was that the potential spouse must meet all the above requirements and be attractive as well.
Realistically, what are the chances that an individual would fulfill so many requirements and also happen to be physically/romantically attractive?
I understand what you're saying. And I agree that romantic attraction is a legitimate and necessary element in marriage.
My point was that the potential spouse must meet all the above requirements and be attractive as well.
Realistically, what are the chances that an individual would fulfill so many requirements and also happen to be physically/romantically attractive?
realistically hardly any, its not logical to think like that, i have come across a couple of people like this and they couldnt find anyone cos of their long list of requirements, as soon as they chopped things out of their list, alhumdulillah they found someone.
salamz always nice to see people not know what they talking about :D. it was a joke relax. anyway cashew arent u a nut? :D haha man that made me smile anyone else feel free :). anyway cashew u never heard of beauty is in the eye of the beholder? 1 manz something something another mans poison? it is a persons imaan their personality that makes them beautiful. anyone agree? if not wana fight? :D
luv yaz all (who couldnt)
Zeshan
wasalam
.: Anna :.
08-01-07, 09:00 PM
Cashew its true some people are like this, the ones which are too bothered about their culture and what people will say, as u know from the example of the Prophet :saw: and his time that is not the correct way, and masha allah there do exist some people which try to follow the sunnah of the prophet :saw: in all aspects including marriages. As MG said I think this attitude to marriage is improving amongst the younger generation of Muslims. Many of our parents generations who are living in the UK, I think they feel worried about losing their identity connection with their homeland (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Algeria etc etc whichever it may be, I think all are a bit effected by that) so they want to make sure their children hav the identity n sometimes they worry about it much too much. Sometimes people are worried about this more than they are about Islamic identity, but what we have now I think with the youth is a people who do put the Islamic identity infront of the ethnic identity, and so by the time this generation has kids I really think that will make things easier for the next ones in marriage, not restricted in the same sense of nationality, class etc.
But Cashew its not everyone n every family which is like that. We hear alot about it, because people who have problems are likely to bring it up n ask for solutions etc, those who dont have problems in it are not bringing it up to talk about as often. I do know many Muslim people who have got married with little fuss and problems (inc me and my hubby, i wouldnt say we had ne real difficulty alhamdulillah). Often its harder for the older child, once the older bro or sis marries outside of the culturally expected it can be easier for the next ones :)
Cashew its true some people are like this, the ones which are too bothered about their culture and what people will say, as u know from the example of the Prophet :saw: and his time that is not the correct way, and masha allah there do exist some people which try to follow the sunnah of the prophet :saw: in all aspects including marriages. As MG said I think this attitude to marriage is improving amongst the younger generation of Muslims. Many of our parents generations who are living in the UK, I think they feel worried about losing their identity connection with their homeland (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Algeria etc etc whichever it may be, I think all are a bit effected by that) so they want to make sure their children hav the identity n sometimes they worry about it much too much. Sometimes people are worried about this more than they are about Islamic identity, but what we have now I think with the youth is a people who do put the Islamic identity infront of the ethnic identity, and so by the time this generation has kids I really think that will make things easier for the next ones in marriage, not restricted in the same sense of nationality, class etc.
But Cashew its not everyone n every family which is like that. We hear alot about it, because people who have problems are likely to bring it up n ask for solutions etc, those who dont have problems in it are not bringing it up to talk about as often. I do know many Muslim people who have got married with little fuss and problems (inc me and my hubby, i wouldnt say we had ne real difficulty alhamdulillah). Often its harder for the older child, once the older bro or sis marries outside of the culturally expected it can be easier for the next ones :)
hmm... Someone knows geography. Have any Sri Lankan connections by any chance?
Anyways back to the topic. There is nothing wrong with a person having certain expectations from their furture spouse, as long as it is within the limits set by Islam. I dont see any complications with one seeking to marry someone from you own ethinic origin or among the other factors.
This doesnt neccessarily make marriage difficult, however when muslims fail to follow the teaching of Islam that things get complicated. i.e choosing beauty, wealth and status over faith.
However this is far better when you compare with many in the west who are afraid of commitment towards marriage and prefer a unstable relationship
Niqaabi
08-01-07, 09:37 PM
Cashew mashaAllah i think you raised some good point and sadly yes there are some muslims in this world that think like that and behave this way when this was not something that the messenger :saw: thought or behaved.
It is true that if muslims forgot about casts, status, wealth (in terms of marrying a well off person rather then someone who is financially stable), etc like the points you made, then the marriage should inshaAllah be a successful one.
I think some muslims make marriage such a hardship and it starts with the searching stage. I have seen sisters make lists of what their potential husband should be like:
*has to have a degree
*has to know how to drive
*has to be from this country
*has to be a revert
*has to be this height
*has to be this weight
*has to have this length beard
*has to want to live seperate from family/with family
*has to have a job paying over £45k pa
etc etc and the list goes on, and i think to myself, you want all that, well are you all that yourself to be that picky?
For some muslims it is hard because they have very strict parents that have go so far away from islam that marrying someone below their own status would equal disowning. So you can kind of understand when they say they have to be this ethnicity and from this part of the villiage etc, because it is the parents fault.
but basically if people followed the way of the prophet in handling every matter then there wouldnt be this problem with marriage.
have i gone off topic? :S:p
Cashew mashaAllah i think you raised some good point and sadly yes there are some muslims in this world that think like that and behave this way when this was not something that the messenger :saw: thought or behaved.
It is true that if muslims forgot about casts, status, wealth (in terms of marrying a well off person rather then someone who is financially stable), etc like the points you made, then the marriage should inshaAllah be a successful one.
I think some muslims make marriage such a hardship and it starts with the searching stage. I have seen sisters make lists of what their potential husband should be like:
*has to have a degree
*has to know how to drive
*has to be from this country
*has to be a revert
*has to be this height
*has to be this weight
*has to have this length beard
*has to want to live seperate from family/with family
*has to have a job paying over £45k pa
etc etc and the list goes on, and i think to myself, you want all that, well are you all that yourself to be that picky?
For some muslims it is hard because they have very strict parents that have go so far away from islam that marrying someone below their own status would equal disowning. So you can kind of understand when they say they have to be this ethnicity and from this part of the villiage etc, because it is the parents fault.
but basically if people followed the way of the prophet in handling every matter then there wouldnt be this problem with marriage.
have i gone off topic? :S:p
*has to have a degree - fair enough
*has to know how to drive - Reasonable
*has to be from this country - Reasonable
*has to be a revert - :scratch: doesnt make sense
*has to be this height - Okay
*has to be this weight - thats a strange one?
*has to have this length beard - fair point
*has to want to live seperate from family/with family - Okay
*has to have a job paying over £45k pa - that definitely going over the top?
In my opinion most of these issues are seen, and requirements(unrequired-especially cast/village) are not required for a spouse.
gotta admit my brother had many requirement of 'the one'....5 years he spent going to houses, but there he didnt find 'the one'. rearrange what you believe is compulsary, make it according to what islam ask for u t look for in a spouse...surely your requirements will be met.
I agree with ezra, its not too difficult,...unless you mke ot difficult.
OK,you want to go for cast ed aswell as imaan, taqwa and the other few...o n looks ( sorry bout my lack of knowledge..i cant recall the hadith), but one makes it difficult when they make status-in terms of cast, education, nationality etc. compulsory.
It is advised by many scholars that when it comes to status-
wmen should marry someone of equivalent status or above, but that men marry someone of equivalent status or below.
This being because the status of the wife and children will rise and fall according to the husband's position.
''....They (the wives) are your garments and you are their garments....'' Surah al-baqarah 2:187
This quote clarifies that women will be unhappy if they were to marries down, she may come to resent the loss f status, affecting the stability of the family.
Whereas a husbands status reflects upon his family.
This is only advisory-in terms of status though.
And correct if i am wrong in any way.
salaam
Cashew mashaAllah i think you raised some good point and sadly yes there are some muslims in this world that think like that and behave this way when this was not something that the messenger :saw: thought or behaved.
It is true that if muslims forgot about casts, status, wealth (in terms of marrying a well off person rather then someone who is financially stable), etc like the points you made, then the marriage should inshaAllah be a successful one.
I think some muslims make marriage such a hardship and it starts with the searching stage. I have seen sisters make lists of what their potential husband should be like:
*has to have a degree
*has to know how to drive
*has to be from this country
*has to be a revert
*has to be this height
*has to be this weight
*has to have this length beard
*has to want to live seperate from family/with family
*has to have a job paying over £45k pa
etc etc and the list goes on, and i think to myself, you want all that, well are you all that yourself to be that picky?
For some muslims it is hard because they have very strict parents that have go so far away from islam that marrying someone below their own status would equal disowning. So you can kind of understand when they say they have to be this ethnicity and from this part of the villiage etc, because it is the parents fault.
but basically if people followed the way of the prophet in handling every matter then there wouldnt be this problem with marriage.
have i gone off topic? :S:p
No. I think you're right on target.
My point is that the beginning of Islam is, you could argue, really a story about a successful, loving marriage.
It was the great love and trust of this marriage that helped the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, bring His Message to the world.
So, Islam, from its very start, regards marriage as a very wonderful and very powerful relationship.
Please note that when we read about the life of the Prophet and about the beginnings of Islam, we don't encounter a long, unpleasant story about Muhammed having a long list of precise criteria for a spouse, and how difficult it was for Him to find a potential spouse who precisely matched all three-dozen highly specific criteria.
I guess my point is that Muslims have every reason to make getting married a simple thing.
And I see how many young Muslims in this forum really do want to get married as an expression of their faith, and have an Islamically-based family life, and raise Islamically well-educated children.
Their intentions seem entirely good, and yet their parents, or their parents' culture, turn getting married into something very difficult and complicated.
That's unfortunate. I'm glad to hear it's changing.
Al-Saeed Abdi
08-01-07, 09:53 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,i think to myself, you want all that, well are you all that yourself to be that picky?That is so true, some people put themselves in such high pedestal their only going to hurt themselves. This goes with guys, as well as sisters.
Ma'aSalaama
Niqaabi
08-01-07, 09:56 PM
Btw the list i made, it wasnt a pick list where sisters say "well he has this point so i guess he's alright" it has to be every point in that list or its a no to the bro.
cashew, the prophet :saw: saw aisha (r) in his dream 3 times wrapped in cloth, and it was a sign from Allah telling him to marry her, he didnt then turn around and say "oh but i want her to have this and that point, and she has to be this height and this age" etc which is another point sisters make, "he can only be 2 years older or the same age and if he is then he has to at least be a day older then me"
:rolleyes:
Al-Saeed Abdi
08-01-07, 10:00 PM
As Salaamu Alaikum,It is advised by many scholars that when it comes to status-
wmen should marry someone of equivalent status or above, but that men marry someone of equivalent status or below.
This being because the status of the wife and children will rise and fall according to the husband's position.
''....They (the wives) are your garments and you are their garments....'' Surah al-baqarah 2:187
This quote clarifies that women will be unhappy if they were to marries down, she may come to resent the loss f status, affecting the stability of the family.
Whereas a husbands status reflects upon his family.
This is only advisory-in terms of status though.
And correct if i am wrong in any way.Who said this? This seems to go against the core essence of Islam, where all mankind is equal, worshiping Allah (swT) in unison, together as one body. If anything, it is only God consciousness (i.e. piety) that differentiates between us all.
Ma'aSalaama
simple answer: because people have become slaves to the world :rolleyes:
.: Anna :.
08-01-07, 10:04 PM
hmm... Someone knows geography. Have any Sri Lankan connections by any chance? yes :S
Chained_Water
08-01-07, 10:06 PM
Hmm.. lets remember that everyone has their own individual needs from a spouse, so having some "criteria" is not something bad.
What is a problem is when the society, parents, family, whoever.. prevent a person from getting married for no good reason. ..that could be cultural stuff, age, and otehr such reasons.
As Salaamu Alaikum,Who said this? This seems to go against the core essence of Islam, where all mankind is equal, worshiping Allah (swT) in unison, together as one body. If anything, it is only God consciousness (i.e. piety) that differentiates between us all.
Ma'aSalaama
well i wrote that from a book
The muslim womans handbook by Huda Khattab.
Apparently, it is advised by many scholars- it says that the criteria to be taken into acount include not only piety but also lineage, honour, level of education. Scholars adviise that....and then what i hadd said before.
Al-Saeed Abdi
08-01-07, 10:09 PM
well i wrote that from a book
The muslim womans handbook by Huda Khattab.
Apparently, it is advised by many scholars- it says that the criteria to be taken into acount include not only piety but also lineage, honour, level of education. Scholars adviise that....and then what i hadd said before.
This is strange indeed.
Ma'aSalaama
This is strange indeed.
Ma'aSalaama
No I have heard it too. Apparently a girl has a right to seek someone the same financial status as her family or higher as it can cause problems. Because she has the right to be as she was in her father's home. Now whether or not people wish to do that is another thing, as inshaAllah we are all zaahids and zaahidas and dont care for this dunya so money and material things should not matter to us. But for some it is an important issue, and I guess they are allowed to think like that.
Al-Saeed Abdi
08-01-07, 10:30 PM
No I have heard it too. Apparently a girl has a right to seek someone the same financial status as her family or higher as it can cause problems. Because she has the right to be as she was in her father's home. Now whether or not people wish to do that is another thing, as inshaAllah we are all zaahids and zaahidas and dont care for this dunya so money and material things should not matter to us. But for some it is an important issue, and I guess they are allowed to think like that.
Interesting, well Alhmadulilah, risk/sustenance is from Allah (swT), an amana/trust that is given, and can well be taken away without warning. There is nothing clever about running after something so pragmatic.
In regards to the sisters rights, Islam gives her the freedom to stipulate almost anything she wants.
Ma'aSalaama
yes :S
Glad to know i'm not the only one :up:
It is advised by many scholars that when it comes to status-
wmen should marry someone of equivalent status or above, but that men marry someone of equivalent status or below.
I have heard this said many times as well, particularly in Pakistan among people who really should know better.
Unless they provide some form of basis from the Sunnah to prove their point, it's quite possible that the source you read from is mistaken on this issue because there are examples within the Sunnah which are the complete opposite of this. Allahu Alim.
There are times sadly when fatwas are given on issues based upon appeasing the whims and desires of certain communities rather than deriving ahkam from legitimate sources. Such as the so called "learned people" who say that mortgages are halal because they are a "necessity" even though there is ample evidence from Quran and Sunnah to say that it is haraam and they have no evidence to support their claim (lie) that it is halal.
Chained_Water
09-01-07, 09:01 PM
I'd think it is common sense.. if the husbands status is lower than the wifes then it may make it difficult for her to adjust to his level after marriage and moving in with him and may also effect the way she looks at him in terms of respect etc.. she may resent him being of lower status and prefer someone of higher standing than herself so she can look up to him and depend on him.. rather than if he is poorer and of lesser status and she feels she has a role/position her husband should have instead.
It makes sense that scholars give that advice..
Al-Saeed Abdi
09-01-07, 09:08 PM
I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense all, and there simply isn't a connection between ones income/wealth to that of ones status. For example the humble of people have a certain status within society, and so do scholars who are likely to be far from being rich. But that doesn’t make them ‘untouchables’.
There is difference between understanding, and recognising the status of people in society. But to use it as a means to bond people, instead of piety, imaan and ones deen then that truly is sad.
I guess common sense, ain't so common no more.
Ma'aSalaama
Chained_Water
09-01-07, 09:15 PM
Lets not pretend we are in lala land where it makes no difference.. if a woman if going from say a very high social status background to a very poor lower one.. it can have the potential to cause problems because the lifestyle, standard of living, customs, culture will not be what she's accustomed too.. it might also make the husband feel inadequate and under pressure to live up to her previous expectations under her father..
I'm not saying wealth status etc is more important than anything else. I'm saying in the real world people ought to consider real issues that can have practical consequences on their married lives.. and a drastic change in living standards or lifestyle after marriage may result in problems within it.. but it may not of course.
But the advice from scholars is sound.. it's something to consider before choosing a spouse and decide whether it will bother you or not leaving the things you were accustomed to.
i think the wealth thing is more of a requirement of a girls family rather than the girl herself
but it is understandable that they want their daughter to live comfortably
I have heard this said many times as well, particularly in Pakistan among people who really should know better.
Unless they provide some form of basis from the Sunnah to prove their point, it's quite possible that the source you read from is mistaken on this issue because there are examples within the Sunnah which are the complete opposite of this. Allahu Alim.
There are times sadly when fatwas are given on issues based upon appeasing the whims and desires of certain communities rather than deriving ahkam from legitimate sources. Such as the so called "learned people" who say that mortgages are halal because they are a "necessity" even though there is ample evidence from Quran and Sunnah to say that it is haraam and they have no evidence to support their claim (lie) that it is halal.
Yeh the local imam of my musjid also gave me the same advice, to marry into same class etc. He even said if my parents tell me to marry my cousin then I have to, dno if thats true. Allah oalim.
Al-Saeed Abdi
09-01-07, 09:24 PM
It seems that our understanding of 'Social Status' is quite different, although I do agree with the points you've raised, there are many things that require some consideration, from both of the parties involved.
Ma'aSalaama
Chained_Water
09-01-07, 09:26 PM
You don't have to marry anyone.. but when you get given advice on what issues to consider.. it would not hurt to think about them with an open mind before making your decision.
I always find that after discarding bits of advice from elders I always end up looking back and thinking "Well maybe I should have given that more thought" :smack:
Al-Saeed Abdi
09-01-07, 09:27 PM
Yeh the local imam of my musjid also gave me the same advice, to marry into same class etc. He even said if my parents tell me to marry my cousin then I have to, dno if thats true. Allah oalim.
You don't have to marry your cousin, and nor can your parents force you to, and you don't have to marry from the same caste/tribe etc. Some people believe it’s advisable (they have their reasons), but none can say its an obligation, heck personally I won’t even recommend the idea.
Ma'aSalaama
Lets not pretend we are in lala land where it makes no difference.. if a woman if going from say a very high social status background to a very poor lower one.. it can have the potential to cause problems because the lifestyle, standard of living, customs, culture will not be what she's accustomed too.. it might also make the husband feel inadequate and under pressure to live up to her previous expectations under her father..
This argument of "marrying someone who'll provide the lifestyle you're accustomed to" is the EXACT same reason that people give to disuade mixed race marriages. At best it's a lifestyle choice but no one should claim that choice has an Islamic basis without providing evidence (and bearing in mind the fact that there is Sunnah evidence that runs contrary to that advice).
Rameez just remember one thing: Allah (swt) gives us the right to refuse any rishta, even if it is one suggested by parents. It is recommended in Islam to consider parents' feelings in this matter and can accept their choice or reject it- people are not sinful for rejecting their parental choice of spouse. The imam should have reminded you about the reward you get in Islam for taking care of parents and being loyal to them, but he was wrong to say that you "have to" marry whoever they choose.
Its not exactly far fetched or unreasonable to understand why social status/background of the suitor has been pointed out.
If a woman has has a comfortable lifestyle, and has had a certain standard of living that her father has sustained her with, then its understandable she may be used to it, and be expecting these to be provided at the same level by her husband. And it also isn't unreasonable for the parents of the girl to want the best for their daughter, to make sure as they possibly can, that her transition from their home to that of her husband isn't too much of a shock for her.
If its not possible, then it must be made clear to her, that those luxuries and/or standard of living her father had provided her may not be possible for the husband to provide her with. After which she can mull it over.
Yes wealth may diminish and to pick a suitor solely on how his note pressing business is running is very ill-thought, but the advice of the scholars in this matter can't be discarded as meaningless.
I think we're running into a very interesting cultural difference.
In the U.S., we are expected to work for our wealth. We don't much admire people who gain wealth through inheritance or marriage.
I happen to know several very wealthy couples who, when they first married, were quite poor. Since I've known these people for a very long time, I can remember how very poor they once were. (Meat? Once a week, maybe. Usually chicken was a big treat on Friday or Saturday night.)
And these have been very happy marriages, mostly, I think, because the husband and wife were very united as a team. They didn't want to be poor forever, so both husband and wife worked hard to make things work. The kids, too, didn't always have everything they ever wanted, so they were conscious of all the hard work that creates prosperity.
So, my point is, if you want to be "comfortable" right away, fine. That's your choice. But also remember that if you settle for immediate comfort, you may be missing out on a big adventure.
littlebro
10-01-07, 02:05 PM
Salaam,
I have been watching this discussion for a few days and after reading the Cashew's last point had to respond.
I think we're running into a very interesting cultural difference.
In the U.S., we are expected to work for our wealth. We don't much admire people who gain wealth through inheritance or marriage.
Please remember that Islam is not ONE culture, there are many different opinions within Islam each influenced by the individual community in question.
I am of the same opinion as you are, I expect to work hard for my wealth and make my own way in the world, that's why I have good job which pays well. I personally dislike people who mooch of their parents and want everything handed to them. (In fact, our Holy Prophet PBUH disliked this).
I happen to know several very wealthy couples who, when they first married, were quite poor. Since I've known these people for a very long time, I can remember how very poor they once were. (Meat? Once a week, maybe. Usually chicken was a big treat on Friday or Saturday night.)
And these have been very happy marriages, mostly, I think, because the husband and wife were very united as a team. They didn't want to be poor forever, so both husband and wife worked hard to make things work. The kids, too, didn't always have everything they ever wanted, so they were conscious of all the hard work that creates prosperity.
I commend these people and wish I knew more like them. Too many people in society as a whole want everything handed to them, unfortunately this social mindset has dominated the minds of many Muslims who forget what a real marriage is about.
When it comes to marriage people behave very oddly, they have the idea that the perfect spouse is ready and waiting like a packaged meal on a shelf. I've yet to meet a person who year by year, isn't growing as a person, making mistakes, making choices that influence and enhance their character. If i reflect on my own life over the last few years I see a huge amount of change and will continue to change until the day I die.
Having looked at many 'Muslim' marriage websites I continually see a list similar to the one Cashew posted. In the end I know most of these people will give up their search "for the one", I just worry that they will settle with someone and rather than look for the good in them, want to be a team in the marriage, will simply regret and loathe their choice.
So, my point is, if you want to be "comfortable" right away, fine. That's your choice. But also remember that if you settle for immediate comfort, you may be missing out on a big adventure.
Look forward to an interesting discussion.
Salaam and Take Care.
Medievalist
10-01-07, 08:14 PM
Marriage is a lottery. Play the game and hope the decks in your favour.
Abu Muslim
10-01-07, 08:18 PM
Marriage is a lottery. Play the game and hope the decks in your favour.
Gambling is haram *whip*
Marriage is like the last piece of a puzzle, look for that final piece, and once you find it, it's complete (even if it dont fit exactly, as long as it looks like it fits)
hussein296
11-01-07, 03:58 AM
well said and thanks for respecting our beloved prophet may Allah and peace be on him what you have just said is spot on.
the criteria for marrying is how accordingly laid out by Allah The glorious
one being religion other mentioned in hadith is that they are pleasing to look at but beauty is also manifested in many ways.
the problem is mainly comes with with new converts who have come with cultural superstitions with them etc indian sub continent.
in fact so much energy us wasted in finding marriage when suitable male and female but due to class or status being the adopted from hindus culture you find that these alone cause widespread confusion for sincere muslim believers.
we have to bare in mind while islam is perfect religion of Allah the followers out of their ignorance have totally misunderstood it or are plain ignorant,in fact these one reason their is so much confusion and disunity amongst muslims today.how are we to guide mankind when we waste untold hours in issues that prophet peace be on him and companions never wasted time but went ahead and got marriage whoever was suitable for them and concentrated more on solving bigger issues in society etc poverty.
another we also notice here in west marriage is looked as like commodity hence dificulty in finding partners due to parents seekings superfical demands like prospective man or woman to have university degree or to earning over £25000 income or other silly demands which unbelievibly are asked by parents.hence most have decided to go back home to marry bringing a social problem whereby you would find some women who have reached 35 years but who are still unmarried whereby they end up committing zina(adultery) to satisfy the natural need.the parents are much to blame on these.
me.sawda
11-01-07, 07:04 AM
I'd think it is common sense.. if the husbands status is lower than the wifes then it may make it difficult for her to adjust to his level after marriage and moving in with him and may also effect the way she looks at him in terms of respect etc.. she may resent him being of lower status and prefer someone of higher standing than herself so she can look up to him and depend on him.. rather than if he is poorer and of lesser status and she feels she has a role/position her husband should have instead.
It makes sense that scholars give that advice..
It's really such a nice topic. Thanks to Cashew for starting this thread:D
Chained water.. I can't agree fully with you. By our own desire we shouldn't be choosing spouse rather the way our role model Prophet(saw) has chosen his spouse. Cause our desire always doesn't lead us to what's good for us. Our prophet( saw) married Khadiza (ra) who was a top business women then in mecca. Prophet (saw) was her employee. If financial and other status were to look down upon someone prophet(Saw) would have never accepted the proposal, cause wealth isn't the measure to evaluate someone. Wealth is not ever lasting.
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. ( Al Quran (4:19)
Our prophet(saw) were so honorable person in Mecca , he was titiled Al-amin for his truthfulness and honesty.. His character attracted khadiza (ra). It wasn't unwillingly.
So why now a Muslim girl will disgrace her husband if he is not financially equal to her?
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. (4:34)
Criticize/ comment on this .I'm seeking the truth!
Let's be righteous Muslims...
Fi-amanillah
me.sawda
11-01-07, 07:09 AM
Gambling is haram *whip*
Marriage is like the last piece of a puzzle, look for that final piece, and once you find it, it's complete (even if it dont fit exactly, as long as it looks like it fits)
:hidban: :hidban:
:nervous: :sub:
Very nice explanation... ..!!
I think Islam, which of course includes the life of the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, gives young Muslims all the ingredients they need for a very happy and successful marriage.
But...
I think these ingredients require absolute honesty.
The Prophet and, for example, Khadijah, were people who were obviously very open to the world, and, moreover, very open to God's will -- they weren't concerned about personal comfort or safety or status.
And Islam necessarily understands that not everyone can be that way. So, it allows for people to make certain discriminations with regard to the wealth, status, etc., of a potential spouse.
But Islam does not limit people to those choices or discriminations.
Islam clearly and obviously demostrates, "Hey, look. If you're willing to look beyond immediate comforts and safety, if you're truly willing to see this world as nothing more than a bus stop or transit point, there's a vast amount that you can learn and experience that is entirely pleasing to God. There's a big adventure that's waiting for you."
.: Anna :.
11-01-07, 12:48 PM
:up: Cashew, nice post
alialiyan
11-01-07, 02:06 PM
When it comes to marriage people behave very oddly, they have the idea that the perfect spouse is ready and waiting like a packaged meal on a shelf. I've yet to meet a person who year by year, isn't growing as a person, making mistakes, making choices that influence and enhance their character. If i reflect on my own life over the last few years I see a huge amount of change and will continue to change until the day I die.
Having looked at many 'Muslim' marriage websites I continually see a list similar to the one Cashew posted. In the end I know most of these people will give up their search "for the one", I just worry that they will settle with someone and rather than look for the good in them, want to be a team in the marriage, will simply regret and loathe their choice.
I agree with this very much.......there is no such thing as perfect and I think the biggest thing going wrong is we have a lot of fear in marriage and have forgotten if believe in Allah then we will get what is written for us providing we do keep the struggle and dont just sit and say well if it is written it will come. We have to go and find.
As a person I would like to take the positives of a partner and make them my positives and his negitives, I wud like to help him see into positive.
Desipower
11-01-07, 07:15 PM
Its not exactly far fetched or unreasonable to understand why social status/background of the suitor has been pointed out.
If a woman has has a comfortable lifestyle, and has had a certain standard of living that her father has sustained her with, then its understandable she may be used to it, and be expecting these to be provided at the same level by her husband. And it also isn't unreasonable for the parents of the girl to want the best for their daughter, to make sure as they possibly can, that her transition from their home to that of her husband isn't too much of a shock for her.
If its not possible, then it must be made clear to her, that those luxuries and/or standard of living her father had provided her may not be possible for the husband to provide her with. After which she can mull it over.
Yes wealth may diminish and to pick a suitor solely on how his note pressing business is running is very ill-thought, but the advice of the scholars in this matter can't be discarded as meaningless.
i have to agree with this and what CW sis said.
although Islam doesn't say to marry this person or that kind of person. Prophet saws said a man marries for 4 reasons and said emaan is the best of those reasons. There are people who have emaan and all the other things as well like status, wealth, beauty. Let's not forget the daughter ( asma i think?) of Abu bakr ( i think?) that was married to another sahaba that was poor. She used to feed the horses and carry dates on her back and do various other chores. while she lived like a princess at her father's house who was a king among men with his status and wealth.
So all that shouldn't play any part in it. But at the same time lets not kid ourself here becuase very few people are like that. Marrying in the same social class, caste, etc is advised by scholars due to the similarities of the background the two have and higher compatibility and lower chances of divorce.
Look at it this way, how come you talk to only a few you have selected to be your friends. why not be as frank with any other person? the people you chose as your friends have the most in common with you and relate the best with you. therefore you have a very comfortable and strong friendship. in the same token, the more similarities you have in your lifestyles and background, the easier it will be for both sides to adjust to their new life as married couples and easier it will be for their families to meet each other as well.
And lastly, even the prophet saws allowed you to marry in your tribe if that's your preference and you don't want to marry outside your tribe. Quresh were the most noblest of tribes and they married either among each other only or few other noble tribes. Take the syeds (descendants of the prophet saws), most of not all of them marry among other syeds only.
So that's my thoughts on it :)
hussein296
11-01-07, 08:43 PM
salaam aleikum
what you just said actually contradict islam in that islam has no class system or caste,that you mention is from not from islam.but from your tribe culture and the fact the that a scholar mention you should marry from your people is not actually true.but it is true to marry people who are similar to you,also let not forget fatuma prophet married ali r.a when he is was very poor in fact he did not have anything to give as dhowry.
thirdly it being proven to marry further away from your close relations as it umar r.a recomended due to many reasons which have been proven etc marry close relation can have effect on children born from wedlock due to similar dna or others as it happen to present arab population.
what you really should say is that it more suitable that one marry someone who is similar in lifestyle to make marriage life harmonious and easy.that is common sense.in fact i have chosen to marry from my own tribe rather than outside it but i have also choosen someone who is not related to me.
the reasons being we have like and dislike about others etc type of food or smell which are accustomed,these is in fact what really make different nowadays.today their are few difference amongst people in terms of wealth or lifestyle that why it amaze me to see someone living here in west having to choose on basis of wealth or lifestyle it very well known that people are divided to middle class and the very rich with welfare underclass making the third class.the welfare class and middle class is are actually similar except for income earned,so it odd for parents to think their children are special unless they shop in harrods every week and have mansions and penthouse in the city then it make sense to choose someone similar in lifestyle,and Allah knows best.
what islam say about tribe is that it act as some sort of identity where you come from but not a criteria to direct you how to live you life,as those have been given to us by Supreme Lawgiver ALLAH The Glorious.
end of subject for me here salaam.
hussein296
11-01-07, 08:46 PM
I think Islam, which of course includes the life of the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, gives young Muslims all the ingredients they need for a very happy and successful marriage.
But...
I think these ingredients require absolute honesty.
The Prophet and, for example, Khadijah, were people who were obviously very open to the world, and, moreover, very open to God's will -- they weren't concerned about personal comfort or safety or status.
And Islam necessarily understands that not everyone can be that way. So, it allows for people to make certain discriminations with regard to the wealth, status, etc., of a potential spouse.
But Islam does not limit people to those choices or discriminations.
Islam clearly and obviously demostrates, "Hey, look. If you're willing to look beyond immediate comforts and safety, if you're truly willing to see this world as nothing more than a bus stop or transit point, there's a vast amount that you can learn and experience that is entirely pleasing to God. There's a big adventure that's waiting for you."
well said cashew you are actually very much behaving as muslim,also please remove that fat old kuffar on your nickname,kuffar is mostly used for mushrikeen(pagans) not people of the book,take care
Take the syeds (descendants of the prophet saws), most of not all of them marry among other syeds only.
Syeds are expected to intermarry with other Syeds due to backwardness and jahiliya in their ranks. There is no Islamic basis for this practice if anything it is unislamic that they consider themselves to be so exclusively above the Ummah when in truth their rank is no different from any other Muslim (except according to how much taqwa each individual has).
The biggest joke going round is this rumour that Syeds are "descendants of the Prophet (saw)", cos if that was true, how come the Prophet (saw) was Arab and the Syeds are Pakis? Descendants mari tui!
.: Anna :.
11-01-07, 08:57 PM
Let's not forget the daughter ( asma i think?) of Abu bakr ( i think?) that was married to another sahaba that was poor. She used to feed the horses and carry dates on her back and do various other chores. while she lived like a princess at her father's house who was a king among men with his status and wealth.
Yup it is Asmaa bint Abi Bakr (r) and her husband was Az Zubayr (r) :)
.: Anna :.
11-01-07, 08:58 PM
The biggest joke going round is this rumour that Syeds are "descendants of the Prophet (saw)", cos if that was true, how come the Prophet (saw) was Arab and the Syeds are Pakis? Descendants mari tui!
lool yeh i agree with ya on that one :p
Desipower
11-01-07, 09:52 PM
Syeds are expected to intermarry with other Syeds due to backwardness and jahiliya in their ranks. There is no Islamic basis for this practice if anything it is unislamic that they consider themselves to be so exclusively above the Ummah when in truth their rank is no different from any other Muslim (except according to how much taqwa each individual has).
The biggest joke going round is this rumour that Syeds are "descendants of the Prophet (saw)", cos if that was true, how come the Prophet (saw) was Arab and the Syeds are Pakis? Descendants mari tui!
you said that every one is equal and there's no distinction in Islam of anyone. And at the same time you said syed's can't be descendent's of the Prophet saws becuase he was an arab and they are pakis?
a bit self contradictory don't you think?
.: Anna :.
11-01-07, 10:42 PM
Yeh but desi girl it is a bit unlikely dont u think, that somehow alllll the descendants of the prophet :saw: seem 2 end up in Pakistan? :p Seriously u dnt think some of them hav got 2 b fakes?
Desipower
11-01-07, 10:54 PM
Yeh but desi girl it is a bit unlikely dont u think, that somehow alllll the descendants of the prophet :saw: seem 2 end up in Pakistan? :p Seriously u dnt think some of them hav got 2 b fakes?
i'm sure there are fakes out there, no doubt about that. But it is also unlikely that there won't be any descendants in pakistan. After all, it was the arabs who invaded india and Arabs did marry other races as well. So it would be wrong to say there aren't any real descendants of the prophet in pakistan.
.: Anna :.
11-01-07, 11:03 PM
I dont think Neelu is saying there are none, and also I am not saying none but definitely there is a disproportionate amount of ppl in indian subcontinent calling themselves sayed. Also its not correct that they only can marry between themselves, and alot of people seem to think a lot of the sayed status but all have 2 remember that lineage n background will not b of ne help 2 them, and none is better than another except by taqwa. But those who reli are sayed, the only thing they hav 2 b aware of is that they are not allowed 2 accept zakah/sadaqa money or food cos it was not allowed 4 the prophet :saw:'s house
Desipower
12-01-07, 01:32 AM
I dont think Neelu is saying there are none, and also I am not saying none but definitely there is a disproportionate amount of ppl in indian subcontinent calling themselves sayed. Also its not correct that they only can marry between themselves, and alot of people seem to think a lot of the sayed status but all have 2 remember that lineage n background will not b of ne help 2 them, and none is better than another except by taqwa. But those who reli are sayed, the only thing they hav 2 b aware of is that they are not allowed 2 accept zakah/sadaqa money or food cos it was not allowed 4 the prophet :saw:'s house
I don't know how many are really syeds and how many fakes nor can anyone else make that assumption. It is true that we are all equal in the eyes of Allah and one that is better is the one in his emaan and taqwa. But i do recall reading a hadith of prophet :saw: stating that if you wanted to marry within your tribe only then that is allowed. Of course you can't go saying its haraam to marry outside and we are better then others or what not. But if someone feels safer marrying within their own tribe then they are entitled to that right.
And whether anyone denies it or not we do have status in this duniya, some do come from noble tribes where as others don't and that can't be ignored. That does not mean one can look down upon his/her brother/sister and think of themselves better but it does mean someone came from a noble heritage and tribe and they are most of the time passed down those noble traits as well that others don't normally carry.
I"m getting a very negative vibe from you and neelu against all this as if you two have something against such people? I agree that in Islam we all are equal and one who is better is one who has taqwa and stronger emaan. But at the same time difference among people do exist that makes one better than other on a social and society level. The Quresh were a better tribe, the answers were better, the rajput in Asia were better. Not becuase they all had money but they all came from better heritage and possessed traits and characteristics that set them aside from the others.
hussein296
12-01-07, 01:57 AM
salaam again
first of all the syed are from india plus Ahlul bayt are hashimite arabs with qureish being the main name used in quran,so i can say with open eyes that syed in india are not from household of Rasul may Allah peace be on him,secondly they are creation of upper caste hindus who converted to islam but wanted to maintain their high lineage,thirdly it is true islam does accept the difference in terms of wealth and lifestyle but it leave at that full stop.for islam came to remove injustice and class system that is alien to spirit of islam.
in fact their are hadith which says those who are wealthy are last to enter jannah as their wealth is a test from Allah The Glorious,while poor are accounted faster due to hardship endured which is also a test.
it is okay to marry from people who are similar to you as marrying from people who are more wealthy is problematic.
secondly these is different than saying that my girl cannot marry low caste due to her being higher caste,well islam never classify people in caste rather these is way of life for pagans hindus,it high time muslims from indian sub continent to reject it.
their story going on bbc about lower caste in india who number millions about 70% of population are beginning to convert to islam while others are converting to christianity.how are we goner win these people over when other muslims are practicing these oprressive system of classifying people into caste.
also main principle of islam is to see these life as bus stop to greater life to come,so 0 muslims overlook your different and hasten to Allah ways that is more pleasing than wasting time on humiliating each by either calling other names or by dividing amongst yourselves while deen(religion) has been finilised for you by All Wise Creator.
$HugoBoss$
12-01-07, 01:15 PM
I guess it really depends how strict our parents would be on this issue. My parents are strict but they gave me the freedom to choose from. I'm in med school right now and i would love to marry a girl in the same field that also holds islamic and family values, there's a lot out there and of course i found her :D ;) . It would be nice to follow the prophet's teachings and how to live life in general with islamic values. There are always obstacles carefully planned and set by shaitan, he doesn't want you to succeed, he'd rather see you burn in hell right????
Thats why most people say "i want my husband to be tall and handsome and he should have lots of money" well those type of people only think about the dunya and not the akirah. :rolleyes:
In conclusion islamic and family values are the key elements for a marriage to be successfull in both husband and the wife's character. Regardless of your upbringing or pressure from parents, we should try our best to follow the prophet's way of life or at least make a decent attempt to. :up:
If you are Syed and you want to marry another Syed whats the issue in that? :rolleyes: Its their personal preference, for whatever reason, whether others like it or not. Same way as some prefer to marry within their own ethnicity.
If the recommended aspects are sought after (deen, wealth, looks, lineage) then to further whittle down prospective spouses, people may have other additional aspects/characteristics/traits they look for. Each to their own.
Desipower
13-01-07, 06:04 PM
If you are Syed and you want to marry another Syed whats the issue in that? :rolleyes: Its their personal preference, for whatever reason, whether others like it or not. Same way as some prefer to marry within their own ethnicity.
If the recommended aspects are sought after (deen, wealth, looks, lineage) then to further whittle down prospective spouses, people may have other additional aspects/characteristics/traits they look for. Each to their own.
Exactly sis! :up: and i'm finding myself a desi prince becuase that's MY preference :D
littlebro
13-01-07, 06:25 PM
Exactly sis! :up: and i'm finding myself a desi prince becuase that's MY preference :D
"O Mankind, We have created you from a single pair of a male and female and made you nations and tribes in order for you to recognize one another; verily the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is most conscious of Him." (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)
Surely then, if you choose someone just because they are of a particular caste then you are disobeying Allah All Mighty?
Desipower
13-01-07, 06:29 PM
"O Mankind, We have created you from a single pair of a male and female and made you nations and tribes in order for you to recognize one another; verily the noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the one who is most conscious of Him." (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)
Surely then, if you choose someone just because they are of a particular caste then you are disobeying Allah All Mighty?
Surely Allah has given US the right to choice who we marry and who we don't. No one is stopping you from marrying whoever you want, but don't bother telling others who they can or cannot marry. We all have our preferences. And if we feel comfortable marrying in a certain group only then that's what we'll do.
littlebro
13-01-07, 06:50 PM
Surely Allah has given US the right to choice who we marry and who we don't. No one is stopping you from marrying whoever you want, but don't bother telling others who they can or cannot marry. We all have our preferences. And if we feel comfortable marrying in a certain group only then that's what we'll do.
Salaam,
Hold on a second ... you've just taken my point and thrown it aside. Your comments have nothing to do with what I said, and I certainly did not tell you want to can and cannot do - that's no ones right, I simply quoted the Holy Qu'ran.
Allah has give us free will and free choice but has also stated we should not judge others based on material things such as caste. Therefore my point was that is not Islamic to exclude people based on status or class.
Selecting based on caste/status/money/race etc is not Islamic, it is cultural - please do not throw the two things together.
W' Salaam
Desipower
13-01-07, 07:20 PM
Salaam,
Hold on a second ... you've just taken my point and thrown it aside. Your comments have nothing to do with what I said, and I certainly did not tell you want to can and cannot do - that's no ones right, I simply quoted the Holy Qu'ran.
Allah has give us free will and free choice but has also stated we should not judge others based on material things such as caste. Therefore my point was that is not Islamic to exclude people based on status or class.
Selecting based on caste/status/money/race etc is not Islamic, it is cultural - please do not throw the two things together.
W' Salaam
Hold a second there bro,
do not assume or accuse of me neglecting Islam becuase my preference excludes people i'm not interested in. Islam has us the right to choose who we marry and who don't. And if someone feels safe and comfortable marrying in a certain group only then they have the right to do so. Allah has given us a free will to choose who we marry.
littlebro
13-01-07, 07:57 PM
Hold a second there bro,
do not assume or accuse of me neglecting Islam becuase my preference excludes people i'm not interested in. Islam has us the right to choose who we marry and who don't. And if someone feels safe and comfortable marrying in a certain group only then they have the right to do so. Allah has given us a free will to choose who we marry.
Salaam,
At which point did I accuse you of anything? I'm interested in a debate, that means I put my point forward and you respond to that point. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be safe but making a choice based on a bloodline that may or may not be real?
As I said before everyone is free to make their own choice but lets change the scenario a little bit. You are at a job interview and you are up against a "white" English person, now imagine you loose out because the other person makes the employer feel safe, they only want to work with a certain group (not far fetched is it?). Now how does that make you feel, bad right? I'm sure we all respect that Islam is based on unity, and only this will help us grow stronger as a faith and show others what it means to be Muslim. If WE are divided then what hope do we have in todays world? How many times do we all look at someone in the street and pass judgment? He looks bad news, that begger must have been a bad person to be where they are. All I'm saying is as Muslims we need to be open minded and forget all the cultural things that clash with Islam, I'm not accusing you, heck I sometimes catch myself making rash judgments.
desi I did not mean any of my posts to be a personal attack, all I wanted to do was expand on the topic and really look at the issue at hand.
Take Care
Desipower
13-01-07, 08:00 PM
Salaam,
At which point did I accuse you of anything? I'm interested in a debate, that means I put my point forward and you respond to that point. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be safe but making a choice based on a bloodline that may or may not be real?
Is anyone here claiming to be making choice based on bloodline? And even if someone PREFERS to it then nothing wrong with that.
littlebro
13-01-07, 08:18 PM
Is anyone here claiming to be making choice based on bloodline? And even if someone PREFERS to it then nothing wrong with that.
*sigh*
If you PREFER ham and beer to chicken and milk is that OK too?
Desipower
13-01-07, 08:37 PM
*sigh*
If you PREFER ham and beer to chicken and milk is that OK too?
You prove to me first it's HARAAM (like beer and ham) to marry someone who is a Muslim but of certain group?
Is anyone here claiming to be making choice based on bloodline? And even if someone PREFERS to it then nothing wrong with that.
:rotfl:
hussein296
14-01-07, 01:39 AM
salaam aleikum
desi lilttlebro is quite right to say that criteria is for choosing in islam is quite different than caste system which is very alien and wrong from viewpoints.
secondly no one here is saying or forcing anyone to marry who they seem is suitable for them,just dont use islam to backup you up when it contadict islamic guidance as most scholars who are tribalminded do.
thirdly in order for muslim to progress they have to submit to what Allah The Wise has decreed,which is to make choice according to his direction,that is exactly why we are muslim in first place which is strive to please Allah and live according to his instruction as directed by revelation.
anyone can intepret islam according to their agenda but it does not mean
they are right.
take people who are lower caste in india under what criteria are they low?
heaven forbid it certain not islam>
how are we goner guide people who are oppressed on basis of being born into a lower caste when we choose same criteria as pagan hindu religion<it a folly to think that caste system is sanctioned by islam in anyway>
in fact muslims must do their best to oppose these oppressive system which is very widespread amongstmuslim from indian sub continent and also in middle east
Also knows that their are many indications how muslims are expected to live their life according tomany narrated hadiths and ayas of quran>it been shown that those who carry these concept in their are from jahilliyah>
but anyway good luck to your choice> these is just a topic muslims have to discuss to remove deap seated prejudice which is hindering unity amongst muslims>
salaam
Desipower
14-01-07, 03:00 AM
salaam aleikum
desi lilttlebro is quite right to say that criteria is for choosing in islam is quite different than caste system which is very alien and wrong from viewpoints.
secondly no one here is saying or forcing anyone to marry who they seem is suitable for them,just dont use islam to backup you up when it contadict islamic guidance as most scholars who are tribalminded do.
thirdly in order for muslim to progress they have to submit to what Allah The Wise has decreed,which is to make choice according to his direction,that is exactly why we are muslim in first place which is strive to please Allah and live according to his instruction as directed by revelation.
anyone can intepret islam according to their agenda but it does not mean
they are right.
take people who are lower caste in india under what criteria are they low?
heaven forbid it certain not islam>
how are we goner guide people who are oppressed on basis of being born into a lower caste when we choose same criteria as pagan hindu religion<it a folly to think that caste system is sanctioned by islam in anyway>
in fact muslims must do their best to oppose these oppressive system which is very widespread amongstmuslim from indian sub continent and also in middle east
Also knows that their are many indications how muslims are expected to live their life according tomany narrated hadiths and ayas of quran>it been shown that those who carry these concept in their are from jahilliyah>
but anyway good luck to your choice> these is just a topic muslims have to discuss to remove deap seated prejudice which is hindering unity amongst muslims>
salaam
Perhaps someone can list the Islamic criteria here as to how to select a spouse and then we'll go from there.
There's a difference between allowed and not allowed. Not allowed is to marry a kuffar man. Allowed is to marry a Muslim man. And then which Muslim man you want to marry is upto you to decide. Yes, someone has a choice to pick an arab, desi, black/white, revert, or whatever. If someone feels comfortable with a certain group member then they are free to choose from there. SO no one needs to preach islam and their forced idea of marrying someone from otherside of the world cuz is not from the same culture/group as you.
:rotfl:
are you single?
hussein296
14-01-07, 03:31 AM
salaam aleikum
well these tread was actually started by someone called cashew who is not a muslim but meintioned interesting subject Re: Why Have Muslims Made Marriage So Difficult? (hope he was not winding us up):rolleyes:
i am alhamdulilah married to someone who is from same tribe but that is my choice but at same time i never judge people on what caste they are.
well anyway good luck to your choice let close these topic here.as their is no intelectual benefit can be gained since we discussed these subject inside out.salaam aleikum :up:
Desipower says:
And whether anyone denies it or not we do have status in this duniya, some do come from noble tribes where as others don't and that can't be ignored. That does not mean one can look down upon his/her brother/sister and think of themselves better but it does mean someone came from a noble heritage and tribe and they are most of the time passed down those noble traits as well that others don't normally carry.
I find this a remarkable statement from an orthodox Muslim.
Did the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, teach the equality of all humans regardless of birth, clan, caste, colour, ethnicity, or nationality?
What are these "noble traits" that some Muslims magically inherit by virtue of birth?
This sounds to me exactly the same as the Hindu caste system. In what way could it possibly be different?
.: Anna :.
14-01-07, 11:32 AM
yeh Cashew its not islamically correct what she has said so just ignore :p :D
This sounds to me exactly the same as the Hindu caste system. In what way could it possibly be different?
It is. And this is where you get some Muslims (Indo/Pak) that practise the caste system to this day.
littlebro
14-01-07, 01:00 PM
Desipower says:
And whether anyone denies it or not we do have status in this duniya, some do come from noble tribes where as others don't and that can't be ignored. That does not mean one can look down upon his/her brother/sister and think of themselves better but it does mean someone came from a noble heritage and tribe and they are most of the time passed down those noble traits as well that others don't normally carry.
I find this a remarkable statement from an orthodox Muslim.
Did the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, teach the equality of all humans regardless of birth, clan, caste, colour, ethnicity, or nationality?
What are these "noble traits" that some Muslims magically inherit by virtue of birth?
This sounds to me exactly the same as the Hindu caste system. In what way could it possibly be different?
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) taught us (or tried to) that the only nobility is the love for Allah, it should come first. On the day of judgment we will be stripped of everything but our deeds and if those don't measure up no bloodline/rank/wealth will help.
Those who love Allah = Noble and pious
Those who pride worldly affairs over Allah = Not
To be honest, I'm not surprised some people are having a hard time digesting this as cultural bias and "virtue" of caste has been drummed into the minds of some areas of society so much they can't tell the difference between Religion and Culture.
Salaam O’Alaikum
It is. And this is where you get some Muslims (Indo/Pak) that practise the caste system to this day.
You are right but what is even more disturbing as we can see is that the prejudice is disguised with pseudo-Islamic terminology.
Cashew I think some of the posts here that you've taken issue with actually answer your question. This prejudice we're referring to is precisely why Muslims have made marriage so difficult.
In summary, I think a big difficulty is the generation gap. Our parents/grandparents generation grew up in often Asian culture and the criterion that went with it was acceptable to them as the gold standard when it came to finding a spouse. Now they try to apply the same standards to their kids who grew up here and have a partially different set of values- whether they are western values due to growing up here, or whether they're more Islamic values due to becoming educated and learning more about the deen, nevertheless in both cases the criterion is different from parents. Instead of picking one set of criterion in place of another, I notice a large proportion of Muslims would like to keep everyone happy, so they look for a spouse who fulfils their own individual aspirations as well as the more cultural/traditional aspirations of the parents even though the different aspirations are a contradiction in terms. For example, this is why you'll often get practising brothers who wouldn't mind marrying into another race/culture, but choose not to because they're afraid of upsetting their racist parents, even though they know their parents are wrong. This often results in a clash which can lead to marital problems unless substantial adjustments and compromises are made on ALL sides. Culturally, the assumption is that it's the woman who has to do all the adjusting, but no one person can 'adapt' to the situation alone successfully- there has to be give and take all round.
DesiP, why all the sudden interest in my marital status :wacko: Anyway it's none of your business :rolleyes:
Desipower
14-01-07, 06:25 PM
Desipower says:
And whether anyone denies it or not we do have status in this duniya, some do come from noble tribes where as others don't and that can't be ignored. That does not mean one can look down upon his/her brother/sister and think of themselves better but it does mean someone came from a noble heritage and tribe and they are most of the time passed down those noble traits as well that others don't normally carry.
I find this a remarkable statement from an orthodox Muslim.
Did the Prophet, may peace and blessing be always upon Him, teach the equality of all humans regardless of birth, clan, caste, colour, ethnicity, or nationality?
What are these "noble traits" that some Muslims magically inherit by virtue of birth?
This sounds to me exactly the same as the Hindu caste system. In what way could it possibly be different?
There is a major difference between pakistan and hindu caste system.
Hindu caste system is based on purity, one caste is more pure than the other. Brahims being on top of the chain and the untouchable on the bottom that are so impure. Pakistan caste was more based on trade of the family. It's more based on class system, the diplomats and royalty, the working class, and of that sort. So no one can say one is more pure than the other.
By that i mean they present better traits than others. For instance, one of royalty is taught from young age the responsibility of looking after his people, he is taught manners and skills the other class of people would not possess and they possess skills and traits and manners and walks of life that the royalty would not. Thus the marriage between the two would not be compatible and more likely to fail since there's too much dissimilitaries between the two. These traits and then passed down generation to generation making one group of people more respectable than the other as acknowledged by society for the way they live their lives.
So it's rather a question of which caste (pakistan version) is more compatible with yours that the marriage will be more compatible. But that too is old as most people have blended into a same group so the caste really doesn't apply that much today.
Anyways i was talking about preference here. If someone wants to marry someone from his/her own culture or country then that is an option they can choose, and people here are misquoting hadiths and ayahs to say you have to choose someone else. Yes, Allah created us into tribes to get to know each other and no one is disagreeing with that. But if someone wants to marry in their own culture as their preference then that is not haraam either.
I'm sorry if i had given the impression one is better than other in anyway other then faith as that would be incorrect. I was stating that some tribes are better as in better compatible for you becuase of the higher education and moral upbringing they instill in their children. For instance, a teacher will be stricter one how he raises his child then a business man who cares about money only and will neglect to give the child moral vaules.
DesiP, why all the sudden interest in my marital status :wacko: Anyway it's none of your business :rolleyes:
Well with your train of thought i was going to ask why are you still single and if you had any luck finding a guy with such an vast pool of choices.
hussein296
14-01-07, 08:10 PM
cashew how are you,let me first let you know that what some people are saying here contradicts islam.
first if pakistanis have caste sytem well it no different than hindu system,that actually is news to me.one thing i always notice is deep seated racism towards others muslims e.g blacks,bengalis
these in term make other like bengalis look down on black muslims and so on until we no longer have anything in common meaning (islam) to unite us.
these is very strange indeed i remember one story about sahaba who insulted bilal r.a. (who was ethiopians) the sahaba was rebuked by rasul aley salatu wasalaam,who also described people who are racist or tribalist as lowest common denomitor and are jahilliyin.
it is true Allah has made some people rich and wealthy while others poor that is purely financial status which is also a test.Allah has also given us direction in spending wealth.so really rich according to islamic system is etc a man who Allah has give wealth who invest it on employing people and circulating it amongst muslims and others,so technically his wealth is moving around while enriching others and for every charity paid out of it he is rewarded.
unlike modern version where we have certain oil rich muslims who have billions sitting in high interest accounts while human being around him both muslim and others dying of hunger.that is not rich
so in general people do not understand islamic concept when they use certain criteria to justify their racism.
cashew Islam is perfect religion of Allah (god) The All Wise ,the religion is perfect and universal how people interpret may be right and wrong so accept while islam is perfect people are not,they tend to be deviate slowly until they end up with paganism,these story has been repeated numerous times in quran Al qareem,but due to familiriaty it ignored at their own peril.
so that also explain present day problem muslims face.:coolbro:
So all these contradictions are result of these.
secondly Allah also say he would replace these people who are better and it easier for ALLAH to DO SO.
all i ask ALLAH not make me of those who after revelation have chosen paganism for guidance in the many areas of their life,also islam is complete so one cannot chose to follow one part and reject others.:up:
littlebro
15-01-07, 09:51 PM
I was stating that some tribes are better as in better compatible for you becuase of the higher education and moral upbringing they instill in their children. For instance, a teacher will be stricter one how he raises his child then a business man who cares about money only and will neglect to give the child moral vaules.
What?? That statements backs up your claim that some people are better and more righteous just because of their bloodlines. I'm sorry, but your last statement is the most ridiculous thing you have said in this entire discussion.
You seriously believe that some tribes are more educated that the other? You believe that one is has better morals than another? What about a teacher who neglects her children or the business man who donates money to charity?
Faith and morals are individual to each person, just because one member of the family is good or bad that won't mean the others are the same. And some members of a tribe maybe good but all of them? Your comment is no different to a Christian saying all Muslims are evil because a handful decided to plot an attack! If this is the type of thinking we have then Muslims are in for a hard ride.
I am all for compatibility but what you have said amounts to racism, I really am shocked by this.
W'Salaam.
Desipower
15-01-07, 10:23 PM
What?? That statements backs up your claim that some people are better and more righteous just because of their bloodlines. I'm sorry, but your last statement is the most ridiculous thing you have said in this entire discussion.
You seriously believe that some tribes are more educated that the other? You believe that one is has better morals than another? What about a teacher who neglects her children or the business man who donates money to charity?
Faith and morals are individual to each person, just because one member of the family is good or bad that won't mean the others are the same. And some members of a tribe maybe good but all of them? Your comment is no different to a Christian saying all Muslims are evil because a handful decided to plot an attack! If this is the type of thinking we have then Muslims are in for a hard ride.
I am all for compatibility but what you have said amounts to racism, I really am shocked by this.
W'Salaam.
I think you just fail to understand my point of view and continue to guesstimate it and dwell on that, thinking of ways to go against it.
No one is perfect regardless of what their background is. No one is a better Muslim than one who lives according to the Sunnah and the Quran and no one is a better believer than one who has taqwa.
What i'm saying is some tribes like families do a better job in enlisting proper adaabs and islamic and societal values than others and therefore some tribes or caste were better than others as some families are better than others becuase of what they pass onto their kids.
I also mentioned that may not be the case today becuase of the "melting pot" theory.
Lastly, a preference to marry someone of your own culture or background is a matter of choice and preference. And last i checked, everyone is entitled to that right by Islam to choose as they see fit.
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