View Full Version : A revert sister getting a divorce...
I met a revert sister in class. She married a muslim guy against her parents' wish and after 9 months, she is getting a divorce.
I am very sad for her because i feel she is so all alone in all this without any support, not even her husband... who didn't know how to take care of her.:crying:
Lambo5688
05-12-06, 03:53 AM
I met a revert sister in class. She married a muslim guy against her parents' wish and after 9 months, she is getting a divorce.
I am very sad for her because i feel she is so all alone in all this without any support, not even her husband... who didn't know how to take care of her.:crying:
omg that is sad. How old is that revert sister by the way?
She is in her early twenties. I don't know where she can go from here. She can't even go back to her own family. And her husband wants her out of his house.
I am still thinking how I can help her.
(I can't imagine myself in her position)
She is in her early twenties. I don't know where she can go from here. She can't even go back to her own family. And her husband wants her out of his house.
I am still thinking how I can help her.
(I can't imagine myself in her position)
I think you should do everything you can to help her, she's still young and feeble to this new way of life (Deen) and this is when she needs the help of her sisters most. May Allah bless you for doing so.
I may sound stupid but i think you should marry her if your able to :)
I may sound stupid but i think you should marry her if your able to :)
i think thats a good idea :),
Obviously thats if hes a Man.
Mr_Jailer
05-12-06, 07:02 AM
Is it allowed to make pre-arrangements to marry a sister who is still in marriage even tho a divorce is pendin'?
Am I right is assumin' the revert sisters parents are also reverts?
She is in her early twenties. I don't know where she can go from here. She can't even go back to her own family. And her husband wants her out of his house.
I am still thinking how I can help her.
(I can't imagine myself in her position)
Sis! dont rush to take any decision. first you try to find out the correct reason why her husband want to give divorce. afterall she has given up every thing because of him.and the more important thing is she a muslim sis now (mashallah). try to solve there peoblem between them as much as you can. because in early days of marriage,some time it's happned. some people get misundustanding. its normal ( keep subur enshallah allah will solve all the problem & misundustanding) Ameen :lailah:
Is it allowed to make pre-arrangements to marry a sister who is still in marriage even tho a divorce is pendin'?
Am I right is assumin' the revert sisters parents are also reverts?
No her parents not reverts. Only her and her alone. :(
Sis! dont rush to take any decision. first you try to find out the correct reason why her husband want to give divorce. afterall she has given up every thing because of him.and the more important thing is she a muslim sis now (mashallah). try to solve there peoblem between them as much as you can. because in early days of marriage,some time it's happned. some people get misundustanding. its normal ( keep subur enshallah allah will solve all the problem & misundustanding) Ameen :lailah:
Yes. I told her a few times to try to stay in the marriage. That's what marriage is for. I not sure of details. It's less than a year.... but the choice is theirs....
I dun think her husband sees she did things for him, it's for Allah she reverted. But he thinks he can just get rid of her when he feels like it... ie. when he feels he doesn't like her anymore or thinks she's not the wife material he expecting...
No her parents not reverts. Only her and her alone. :(
may allah help her to get back her husband without any troubles (Ameen)
Yes. I told her a few times to try to stay in the marriage. That's what marriage is for. I not sure of details. It's less than a year.... but the choice is theirs....
I dun think her husband sees she did things for him, it's for Allah she reverted. But he thinks he can just get rid of her when he feels like it... ie. when he feels he doesn't like her anymore or thinks she's not the wife material he expecting...
Sis try as much as you people can. & keep subur some man's they get relize after they lose there things. so keep her away for some time and if still he did 'nt get changed.
then she can think for another marriage. (It's just my advice for you. hope you did not feel any thing wrong because if my own sis also there I will give theh same advice as I given here. :lailah:
And try to teach her that Allah will find a way though this for her is she doesn't despair and if she remains patient in what He decreed. Tell her it's a test of her faith and to remain steadfeast. May Allah bless you and bless her with His mercy.
Whoever fear Allah - He will give him a way out. And (He will) provide for him from where he does not expect. Whoever puts his trust in Allah - He will be enough for him... (Surat at-Talaq: 2-3)
And try to teach her that Allah will find a way though this for her is she doesn't despair and if she remains patient in what He decreed. Tell her it's a test of her faith and to remain steadfeast. May Allah bless you and bless her with His mercy.
Whoever fear Allah - He will give him a way out. And (He will) provide for him from where he does not expect. Whoever puts his trust in Allah - He will be enough for him... (Surat at-Talaq: 2-3)
mushallha ...
really good advice raul.
She's upset he can't treat her nicely... she feels it's difficult to stay with him...
it takes 2 to tango, she is not a kid and knew what she was getting herself into.
it takes 2 to tango, she is not a kid and knew what she was getting herself into.
hey you're not being nice...:rolleyes:
.: Anna :.
05-12-06, 10:19 AM
Thats really sad to hear :( will keep her in duas insha allah.
Hmmm if there is ne way she can rebuild the marriage and make a go of it insha allah mayb its the best, as u said it has only been less than one yr so far... mayb they can try 2 give it a fresh start?
.: Anna :.
05-12-06, 10:20 AM
Is it allowed to make pre-arrangements to marry a sister who is still in marriage even tho a divorce is pendin'?
Am I right is assumin' the revert sisters parents are also reverts?
its not allowed 2 propose or mention 2 ne sister that u wd marry her,until her idda is complete afaik...
whether ppl thinking of it to themselves is allowed am not sure.
its not allowed 2 propose or mention 2 ne sister that u wd marry her,until her idda is complete afaik...
whether ppl thinking of it to themselves is allowed am not sure.
yeh.. thats what i was finkin.. she has to be in Iddah... isn;t that 40days?! after which period.. she can re-marry a person of her choice!
Arsalan
05-12-06, 10:24 AM
This is a bad situation, but Allah tests those whom he loves. Your hubby is a git.
1 trying to fix things in marriage
2 declare youself homeless , find accomadation thru local council and live on benefits and try to find job and study
3 go back to parents, be nice and kind, and admit your mistake. juggle your faith and them. Be kind , respectful and honest. Your parents love you iam sure. This would be a better option, but will require courage, and patience and you will have to be very tough to face upto any emotional or phycological abuse they throw at you.
You will have to decieve them too.
Lots of deception sis, it will work out!!!
talib ul islam
05-12-06, 11:17 AM
This is sad, I'm seeing a bad patern of young revert sisters who are encouraged or pushed to marry asap by the community, with total disregard for the normal channels of enquirey etc, sometime even for personal gain (passport) which ultimately leads to divorce, this happened to a friend of my sister, and I have heard of many more sisters who this has happened to.
Medievalist
05-12-06, 01:56 PM
PiELLE:
if your a lady then just keep in contact with her. Ring her every few days, go out for a meal, go shopping together. The kinda things girls do innit.
I dont think being a good friend means you have to talk about her marital problems EVERY time you meet ( not that thats what you're doing cos obv. I dont know but its just a general point). Take her out for a good time, have a laff with her and let her know that you're there innit.
Basically - keep contact with her loads and cheer her up cos when a person feels all alone and they having relationship problems it can be very depressing and very difficult situation. Knowing that there's someone who keeps contact with them - despite the problems that the person is going through - will leave a deep impression on her - fact.
And if you're a bloke:
then introduce your sisters/young aunts/daughters to her. invite her round for a meal - not with you present but so she can have a laff with your womenfolk. and it isnt necessary for your womenfolk to know about her marital problems - infact would be better if they didnt cos she'll tell them if she wants and otherwise will give her break from her worries.
ALLAH grant her what is best and increase her imaan, islaam and ihsaan - ameen
.: Anna :.
05-12-06, 04:25 PM
Medievalist that is excellent advise masha allah.
ameen 2 ur dua
Enigma Dreamer
05-12-06, 04:56 PM
Is it allowed to make pre-arrangements to marry a sister who is still in marriage even tho a divorce is pendin'?
Am I right is assumin' the revert sisters parents are also reverts?
Depends on how long she is divorced. If she is still in her 'idda, then, it isn't permissible to ask for her explicitly, but a hint is cool. If she has finished her 'idda, then, you can marry her.
And Allah (s.w.) knows best.
thanks all for your good advice. i will try my best to help her. she wanted to come and stay with me for a while which i dun think it's a good idea. i have contacted my ustaz and we will try to sort things out with her and her hubby. it would be good if the hubby willing to go for counselling to make the marriage work but knowing men's ego, that would be a dificult step. if no choice, we have to open the case in court and let the authority deal with his conduct. (why does it have to come to this stage)
will keep you all in loop whatz happening. i dun wish to turn this into a saga but hope new couples having similar problems will learn from here.
fundamentally, i think it's important men should be nice to wives. if they can't, they better learn and try and practice.
pls dun do the following:-
1) expect new wife to do housework when both are holding jobs
2) accuse new wife of being unfaithful when all she wants is to start family with hubby
3) run off to car shows and fixing car instead of pampering new wife
4) use vulgarity words and swearing on new wife
5) gets upset when new wife trying to discuss habits while trying to adjust to living in his house
6) restrict new wife's movement immediately about meeting girlfriends
7) thinks she's a revert, she has 70% work to do while he has none
she is his new wife for god's sake.
now i am upset for her.
thanks all for your good advice. i will try my best to help her. she wanted to come and stay with me for a while which i dun think it's a good idea. i have contacted my ustaz and we will try to sort things out with her and her hubby. it would be good if the hubby willing to go for counselling to make the marriage work but knowing men's ego, that would be a dificult step. if no choice, we have to open the case in court and let the authority deal with his conduct. (why does it have to come to this stage)
will keep you all in loop whatz happening. i dun wish to turn this into a saga but hope new couples having similar problems will learn from here.
fundamentally, i think it's important men should be nice to wives. if they can't, they better learn and try and practice.
pls dun do the following:-
1) expect new wife to do housework when both are holding jobs
2) accuse new wife of being unfaithful when all she wants is to start family with hubby
3) run off to car shows and fixing car instead of pampering new wife
4) use vulgarity words and swearing on new wife
5) gets upset when new wife trying to discuss habits while trying to adjust to living in his house
6) restrict new wife's movement immediately about meeting girlfriends
7) thinks she's a revert, she has 70% work to do while he has none
she is his new wife for god's sake.
now i am upset for her.
Sounds like we've got a serious case of Revert Marries Islamically Ignorant Cultural Muslim.
Any Muslim husband who was serious about his deen and knew even a little about Islam would have put this poor girl at the center of his life.
It's very, very sad.
A truly Muslim husband would have made this early part of their marriage a great deal of fun.
It's always enjoyable to introduce someone whom you love to something you consider beautiful. They could have had a blast taking Islamic classes, getting to know other young Muslim couples, etc.
Oh, well.
Sounds like we've got a serious case of Revert Marries Islamically Ignorant Cultural Muslim.
Any Muslim husband who was serious about his deen and knew even a little about Islam would have put this poor girl at the center of his life.
It's very, very sad.
A truly Muslim husband would have made this early part of their marriage a great deal of fun.
It's always enjoyable to introduce someone whom you love to something you consider beautiful. They could have had a blast taking Islamic classes, getting to know other young Muslim couples, etc.
Oh, well.
So how does a Revert sister go about to teach an Islamically Ignorant Cultural Muslim to be a good husband without sounding naggy or hurting his ego? It's too much hard work and takes all the fun away from the marriage... :rubeyes:
It would aslo be tough to expect a new young revert wife to do that....
So how does a Revert sister go about to teach an Islamically Ignorant Cultural Muslim to be a good husband without sounding naggy or hurting his ego? It's too much hard work and takes all the fun away from the marriage... :rubeyes:
It would aslo be tough to expect a new young revert wife to do that....
It's not her duty to educate him in Islam.
As a Muslim husband, it's his duty to bring her to a full understanding of Islam's beauty and wisdom.
His pathetic male ego has nothing to do with it.
I suspect the reason this joker married a revert is because a muslimah well-educated in her deen would have kicked his sorry butt to the kerb.
It's not her duty to educate him in Islam.
As a Muslim husband, it's his duty to bring her to a full understanding of Islam's beauty and wisdom.
His pathetic male ego has nothing to do with it.
I suspect the reason this joker married a revert is because a muslimah well-educated in her deen would have kicked his sorry butt to the kerb.
oh dear... i really hope this doesn't happen to me in future too... :rubeyes:but i dun kicking some arse... hehe...
is there a way to prevent this from happening to new revert sisters?
.: Anna :.
06-12-06, 07:26 AM
It's not her duty to educate him in Islam.
As a Muslim husband, it's his duty to bring her to a full understanding of Islam's beauty and wisdom.
His pathetic male ego has nothing to do with it.
I suspect the reason this joker married a revert is because a muslimah well-educated in her deen would have kicked his sorry butt to the kerb.
Hmm Cashew I think u are taking it a tiny bit too much to the other side... I dont agree with saying it is the duty of one of them to teach the other, in a marriage both are to teach each other and helping each other improve, it is not like a one way duty. I see the point which you are making here, and I do agree with the basic point esp if the wife is a new Muslim who had more things to learn and was very eager to learn and if the husband was knowledgable...
but I am not too sure about making this general kind of a statement that the husbands duty to teach and the wifes duty to learn, because in reality it goes both ways.
Hmm Cashew I think u are taking it a tiny bit too much to the other side... I dont agree with saying it is the duty of one of them to teach the other, in a marriage both are to teach each other and helping each other improve, it is not like a one way duty. I see the point which you are making here, and I do agree with the basic point esp if the wife is a new Muslim who had more things to learn and was very eager to learn and if the husband was knowledgable...
but I am not too sure about making this general kind of a statement that the husbands duty to teach and the wifes duty to learn, because in reality it goes both ways.
i can understand that!
btw she wants me to meet her for dinner tonight. what shd i say...?:eek:
izzit ok if i print this out for her to read...?
.: hayat :.
06-12-06, 08:07 AM
thanks all for your good advice. i will try my best to help her. she wanted to come and stay with me for a while which i dun think it's a good idea. i have contacted my ustaz and we will try to sort things out with her and her hubby. it would be good if the hubby willing to go for counselling to make the marriage work but knowing men's ego, that would be a dificult step. if no choice, we have to open the case in court and let the authority deal with his conduct. (why does it have to come to this stage)
will keep you all in loop whatz happening. i dun wish to turn this into a saga but hope new couples having similar problems will learn from here.
fundamentally, i think it's important men should be nice to wives. if they can't, they better learn and try and practice.
pls dun do the following:-
1) expect new wife to do housework when both are holding jobs
2) accuse new wife of being unfaithful when all she wants is to start family with hubby
3) run off to car shows and fixing car instead of pampering new wife
4) use vulgarity words and swearing on new wife
5) gets upset when new wife trying to discuss habits while trying to adjust to living in his house
6) restrict new wife's movement immediately about meeting girlfriends
7) thinks she's a revert, she has 70% work to do while he has none
she is his new wife for god's sake.
now i am upset for her.
i am now upset for her too and i agree with ur points of wht to not do..
.: hayat :.
06-12-06, 08:10 AM
btw she wants me to meet her for dinner tonight. what shd i say...?:eek:
izzit ok if i print this out for her to read...?
so u r a sis or a bro??i think is useful 4 her to read opinions but would be upset cuse of feeling exposed ..does she know u talked abt her here on ummah?
so u r a sis or a bro??i think is useful 4 her to read opinions but would be upset cuse of feeling exposed ..does she know u talked abt her here on ummah?
i is a sis so ok i go dinner with her and give her my shoulder to cry on. ok, i wont print it out then. thanks!
i will try my best to listen and not say too much.
It's not her duty to educate him in Islam.
As a Muslim husband, it's his duty to bring her to a full understanding of Islam's beauty and wisdom.
His pathetic male ego has nothing to do with it.
I suspect the reason this joker married a revert is because a muslimah well-educated in her deen would have kicked his sorry butt to the kerb.
can see your point 100% and i think its a valid one but unfortunately these type of men whether muslim or not, would never listen for one second to anything a woman had to say let alone taking Islamic advice from a "mere" woman.This is why some men love to marry from "back home" find a woman from some village who is too ill educated to know her religion, and they have the same perception about reverts sometimes, im sure the reason why western muslim women are so frowned upon in some cases today, is because we know our religion Alhamdulillah and some men dont like to be reminded of the full facts of Islam by a woman so they just pick the parts that are favourable towards them and leave their wives rights out of the marriage.
.: Anna :.
06-12-06, 09:26 AM
yeah asiya i dnt understand that.
some men actually think it is islamically correct that they "cnt take advice from a woman." they think it is like a humilaition and haraam.. and they say if a woman advices them, they will do the exact opposite :eek:
astaghfirullah... its not from quran or sunnah this attitude but from somewhere certain ppl hve picked it up n it has become fairly rampant :mad:
may Allah guide them :S
yeah asiya i dnt understand that.
some men actually think it is islamically correct that they "cnt take advice from a woman." they think it is like a humilaition and haraam.. and they say if a woman advices them, they will do the exact opposite :eek:
astaghfirullah... its not from quran or sunnah this attitude but from somewhere certain ppl hve picked it up n it has become fairly rampant :mad:
may Allah guide them :S
:rotfl: .. soz i found that funny .. its true and i agree with you but its just stupid and pathetic.
:rotfl: .. soz i found that funny .. its true and i agree with you but its just stupid and pathetic.
yep u got to laugh or your would cry, and it really goes on, been there done that, even u bring the daleel of what you say they will never accept it from you, even if u bring a scolar with the same daleel from Quran and sahih sunnah,he will accept it in front of the scolar, but afterwards when the scolars is gone its all change and that is just the "opinion" of his wife and just to get his own way its fatwa shopping :rolleyes: till he gets the fatawa that allows him to opress her. Better off without such men in my opinion a life of lonliness or a life or misery i know what i choose, hope it all works out for the sister insha Allah may Allah ta ala strengthen her and give her something better amin.
yep u got to laugh or your would cry, and it really goes on, been there done that, even u bring the daleel of what you say they will never accept it from you, even if u bring a scolar with the same daleel from Quran and sahih sunnah,he will accept it in front of the scolar, but afterwards when the scolars is gone its all change and that is just the "opinion" of his wife and just to get his own way its fatwa shopping :rolleyes: till he gets the fatawa that allows him to opress her. Better off without such men in my opinion a life of lonliness or a life or misery i know what i choose, hope it all works out for the sister insha Allah may Allah ta ala strengthen her and give her something better amin.
:( .. that made me sad. Foolish Ignorant men :mad: ... Not all of us obviously :D
Medievalist
06-12-06, 02:16 PM
Looking at this case - I'd say its one of the reasons I couldnt marry a white muslimah. Culturally I'd expect her to be more docile and quiet.
Yes - deen is most important but other things also matter in a marriage. Brothers and Ladies who wish to marry outside their cultures solely on the basis of deen - gud luck to ya but be careful aswell. :)
Al-Saeed Abdi
06-12-06, 02:31 PM
Looking at this case - I'd say its one of the reasons I couldnt marry a white muslimah. Culturally I'd expect her to be more docile and quiet.I understand where you are coming from, although I don't hold the same opinion. But I must differ with you when you imply that non-white Muslimahs are, to quote you "docile and quiet." I believe this description doesn't quite hold true to reality. I personally have come across many not so "docile and quiet" Muslimahs who are very far from being white. I find it a little (well actually very) unjust to assume, or put such a blanket statement on any particular group of Muslims, especially on superficous (spl?) grounds.
Ma'aSalaama
[edited to remove unislamic and idiotic comments].
.: Anna :.
06-12-06, 03:19 PM
Looking at this case - I'd say its one of the reasons I couldnt marry a white muslimah. Culturally I'd expect her to be more docile and quiet.
Yes - deen is most important but other things also matter in a marriage. Brothers and Ladies who wish to marry outside their cultures solely on the basis of deen - gud luck to ya but be careful aswell. :)
Medievalist this is not a correct thing to say. You will find quiet muslimahs who are white, and you will find mouthy muslimahs who are asian, and vice versa, and amongst every community. Marrying from back home does not GUARENTEE u get someone quiet and docile. (but anyway i think u already have found a wife so masha allah im sure u have got that which u were looking for) Still we should not make these kind of generalisations. It is purely ignorant and based on assumptions.
Since you are a practising brother and all, I doubt you have had a lot of chats n contact with so many Muslimahs of any background to be able to make a good observation of who is quiet, who is docile, who is loud etc... Also you have not seen all the people in their marriage homes. Those who are loud mouthed outside, maybe are docile inside. Maybe those who are docile outside, give their husband trouble inside always moaning or whatever.
Basically the point is, in previous thread you did offend n upset alot of the sisters from here with generalisations about different groups, and you were warned about it. Please insha allah do not do this again. (ie I would like to avoid a many pages long argument and drama coming from this, with some sisters again very upset, and unnecessary commotion.)
That is totally up to you, that you want to marry from your own culture yourself and insha allah im sure you will have a very happy marriage, but still it is not really beneficial to make gross generalisations or to "warn" people about marrying reverts or from other cultures.
Since you have never married outside your culture yourself, you dont have an experience in it, so one has to wonder on what is your warning based?
Anyway, insha allah I do not think you have meant to cause any offense with your comment, but i do think some sisters will be offended so I jst wanted to ask if you can take people's feelings into consideration when saying such things.
Also I have to make the point that this thread is for suggestions of helping this revert sister. (which u did make good advice earlier masha allah) so please let us not take this thread which was intented for good, and turn it into another long thing about marrying from own culture or other or back home or whatever etc etc.
And as for Sadf you are banned from this thread completely. Any more words from you, whatever they are and you will be gone... so do keep that in mind.
Medievalist
06-12-06, 04:16 PM
I based my "warning" on the case of this brother and his revert wife.
And as far as Im concerned I havent said anything offensive at all in this thread - if still the militant feminist brigade get into a fluster over it - then that doesnt really mean much to me.
.: Anna :.
06-12-06, 04:29 PM
I based my "warning" on the case of this brother and his revert wife.
And as far as Im concerned I havent said anything offensive at all in this thread - if still the militant feminist brigade get into a fluster over it - then that doesnt really mean much to me.
But how can you when you do not even know the people?!
Its not anything to do with feminism.
Medievalist
06-12-06, 04:40 PM
But how can you when you do not even know the people?!
Its not anything to do with feminism.
Isnt it general knowledge that people need to take cultural differences into account?
Our Ustads always say that if you're involved in your culture within the limits of Islam or culture plays an important part in your life then its one thing to consider when marrying outside your culture.
For example: one of the Mawlanas is married to a Jordanian lady and he was saying how you need to be aware of differences. His in-laws are mashaALLAH really practicing and so is he obviously but still he says somethings seem a little strange. As an example of their religiousity - his wife's step-mother used to keep her niqaab on whenever he was around, she would enquire after his health and the kids but wouldnt show her face and he said that with our cultural background it seemed a little strange but he understood it. On the other - according to the Mawlana in our culture its considered shameless for women to be at home without a scarf on their head when elders are present and wearing jeans and stuff in the home even is frowned upon - but with the arabs they may be solid on purdah outside but will dress how they like at home. Even though they within the limits of Islam - its cultural differences like this which need to be considered innit.
Me for example - I dont like women in skirts or in jeans or in western clothes - thats my preference. So culturally I wouldnt be suited for a lady who wears such clothes even in her home.
and its a lot to do with feminism - the militant feminist brigade think they know what they on about - but unfortunately their lack of logic deludes them.:rolleyes:
.: Anna :.
06-12-06, 04:45 PM
Yes people need to take it into account, but you are not taking into account people's ability to comprimise? If husband does not like a certain clothes type, the wife will probly wear dif things which he does like...etc
Anyway what you have said is a valid point, so I do accept that. Perhaps I have just taken ur first post the wrong way, so forgive me for that insha allah and best we all just leave this angle of the topic aside n back 2 the main topic of advise for this particular case. Apologies for me dragging out the offtopicness slightly more.
Enigma Dreamer
06-12-06, 05:10 PM
Assalaamu aleykum.
There is one thing that people mostly do and which, in my view, is baselss and wrong. This is generalisation. I mean, some say Pakis are too much into culture, their weddings contain a lot of munkar, or things like non-white sisters are 'docile and quiet', e.t.c. In EVERY community, race, e.t.c.-there is always the bad and the good. There is nothing like Paki weddings are full of munkar ora white sisters isn't quite, e.t.c. You will certainly find very Islamic weddings among Pakis, or a white sisters who is modest, quite, e.t.c. Same way you can find a non-white sister who is immodest, loud, e.t.c.
But perhaps the most important thing we need to realise is that it is time these kind of thoughts and believes eveaporate from our minds as Muslimiins. All of us are brothers and sisters and anything that tries to generalise a certain community, race, e.t.c. is misguided and bad.
May Allah (s.w.) guide us all to the right path.
Muttaqi
06-12-06, 05:18 PM
Assalaamu aleykum.
There is one thing that people mostly do and which, in my view, is baselss and wrong. This is generalisation. I mean, some say Pakis are too much into culture, their weddings contain a lot of munkar, or things like non-white sisters are 'docile and quiet', e.t.c. In EVERY community, race, e.t.c.-there is always the bad and the good. There is nothing like Paki weddings are full of munkar ora white sisters isn't quite, e.t.c. You will certainly find very Islamic weddings among Pakis, or a white sisters who is modest, quite, e.t.c. Same way you can find a non-white sister who is immodest, loud, e.t.c.
But perhaps the most important thing we need to realise is that it is time these kind of thoughts and believes eveaporate from our minds as Muslimiins. All of us are brothers and sisters and anything that tries to generalise a certain community, race, e.t.c. is misguided and bad.
May Allah (s.w.) guide us all to the right path.
Well said. Being 'docile', 'loud' or 'quiet' isn't determined by race.
Enigma Dreamer
06-12-06, 05:18 PM
Isnt it general knowledge that people need to take cultural differences into account?
Our Ustads always say that if you're involved in your culture within the limits of Islam or culture plays an important part in your life then its one thing to consider when marrying outside your culture.
For example: one of the Mawlanas is married to a Jordanian lady and he was saying how you need to be aware of differences. His in-laws are mashaALLAH really practicing and so is he obviously but still he says somethings seem a little strange. As an example of their religiousity - his wife's step-mother used to keep her niqaab on whenever he was around, she would enquire after his health and the kids but wouldnt show her face and he said that with our cultural background it seemed a little strange but he understood it. On the other - according to the Mawlana in our culture its considered shameless for women to be at home without a scarf on their head when elders are present and wearing jeans and stuff in the home even is frowned upon - but with the arabs they may be solid on purdah outside but will dress how they like at home. Even though they within the limits of Islam - its cultural differences like this which need to be considered innit.
Me for example - I dont like women in skirts or in jeans or in western clothes - thats my preference. So culturally I wouldnt be suited for a lady who wears such clothes even in her home.
and its a lot to do with feminism - the militant feminist brigade think they know what they on about - but unfortunately their lack of logic deludes them.:rolleyes:
Brother Medievalist, I don't personally see any cultural difference in what you are saying. It is all Islamic. Your preference for a girl who doesn't wear jeans has nothing to do with culture but religion. I don't think wearing jeans, e.t.c has to do with a culture. If a white woman becomes a Muslim, and she surely wants to be a true Muslim, then, needless to say,she will dress Islamically, e.t.c.
And the fact that Arabs dress how they like at home, e.t.c. isn't right. As u said, it has to be under the guidance of Islam.
You know, when ALL follow Islam, there will be NO difference and hence nothing like cultural difference. I mean, when outside, when inside, when with visiitors, e.t.c people do eveything of theirs Islamically, you will have no difference. On the contrary, you will have a homogenous society.
I disagree with everyone who's advised the sister to stick around in a marriage where she is treated with so much disrespect and no amount of discussion or advice to her husband is making any difference. He's trying to chuck her out of the house knowing full well that she has nowhere else to go! Are you all going to wait until she's on the streets before even beginning to think that she can't live there like this anymore?
I think she should use her time to find herself a job, somewhere else to live (either with other sisters or a sympathetic Muslim family perhaps or even on her own if she can afford it). That way, she'll have somewhere to go, some independence and some space away from the situation to clear her head of her troubles at home. If her husband sees any sense and starts finding that his life is lonely and empty without her THEN she can consider her options as to whether he has changed enough to salvage the marriage or whether the problems have grown too much for her to go back to him. If they find at that point that the marriage is unsalvageable, then at least she wouldn't be homeless and would be in a place where she could start rebuilding her life.
Well said. Being 'docile', 'loud' or 'quiet' isn't determined by race.
You're right- it's determined by gender:p :rotfl: (only kidding;) )
I based my "warning" on the case of this brother and his revert wife.
And as far as Im concerned I havent said anything offensive at all in this thread - if still the militant feminist brigade get into a fluster over it - then that doesnt really mean much to me.
You are wrong. This revert sister ain't white! Dun you know that Allah has created different nations so we can get to know one another? If you dun know, check the Holy Quran. BTW, which planet are you from? :(
I think it's offensive to dislike Allah's creations.
And BTW it is not that you couldn't marry a white, you just dun get the chance because of your bias opinion. Even if you have the chance, you would have abused it.
Forgive me if I sounded harsh but what is wrong must be put right.
Assalmualaikum all....
Thanks all for your input, however, let's try not say things without the remembrance of Allah in our heart.
The meeting with the revert sister was a good one. Alhamdulilah... she has strong enough faith to think that a divorce is not a good solution to her 'failing' marriage at the moment even though her heart is hurting very much.
Her wish is for her husband to have stronger faith and better deen.
It is going to be very hard work for a young muslim revert wife to try to guide an ignorant muslim husband.
I would be most greatly if anyone can help with good suggestions how to start dealing with this problem.
May she and her husband find the partner they both deceive. (Same for everyone too!)
Thanks all for all your good advice.
May Allah bless us all.
tahm563
07-12-06, 05:32 AM
Brother Medievalist, I don't personally see any cultural difference in what you are saying. It is all Islamic. Your preference for a girl who doesn't wear jeans has nothing to do with culture but religion. I don't think wearing jeans, e.t.c has to do with a culture. If a white woman becomes a Muslim, and she surely wants to be a true Muslim, then, needless to say,she will dress Islamically, e.t.c.
And the fact that Arabs dress how they like at home, e.t.c. isn't right. As u said, it has to be under the guidance of Islam.
You know, when ALL follow Islam, there will be NO difference and hence nothing like cultural difference. I mean, when outside, when inside, when with visiitors, e.t.c people do eveything of theirs Islamically, you will have no difference. On the contrary, you will have a homogenous society.
I think what brother medivalist was trying to say is arabs dress as they like at home, i.e. jeans, skirts whatever, he meant they wear whatever they want at home in front of their mahrams. Islamically, there is nothing wrong with it. But in asian culture, it is frowned up. For example, I know a very practicing sister who follows the ISlamic dress code outside her home (and follows it very well Mashallah) but she wears whatever she likes at home (skirts, jeans, T-shirts, tops whatever). Had she been a desi, all ladies would look down at her even though she is only dressing like that in front of mahrams. But we have to understand that that's their culture, that's their national dress. You can't expect a revert sister to usually dress in selwar kamiz (unless of course her husband wants her to).
Personally, I won't feel comfortable wearing that sorts of clothes in front of my mahrams, although Islamically I am allowed to. Again, it's a cultural thing for me, I would rather dress in selwar kamiz etc etc.
Isnt it general knowledge that people need to take cultural differences into account?
Our Ustads always say that if you're involved in your culture within the limits of Islam or culture plays an important part in your life then its one thing to consider when marrying outside your culture.
For example: one of the Mawlanas is married to a Jordanian lady and he was saying how you need to be aware of differences. His in-laws are mashaALLAH really practicing and so is he obviously but still he says somethings seem a little strange. As an example of their religiousity - his wife's step-mother used to keep her niqaab on whenever he was around, she would enquire after his health and the kids but wouldnt show her face and he said that with our cultural background it seemed a little strange but he understood it. On the other - according to the Mawlana in our culture its considered shameless for women to be at home without a scarf on their head when elders are present and wearing jeans and stuff in the home even is frowned upon - but with the arabs they may be solid on purdah outside but will dress how they like at home. Even though they within the limits of Islam - its cultural differences like this which need to be considered innit.
Me for example - I dont like women in skirts or in jeans or in western clothes - thats my preference. So culturally I wouldnt be suited for a lady who wears such clothes even in her home.
and its a lot to do with feminism - the militant feminist brigade think they know what they on about - but unfortunately their lack of logic deludes them.:rolleyes:
Our ustaz always say 'when the converts marry, he worries'.
I can see why he say that because there are alot of ignorant muslim men who are interested in only picking the women's faults ie. criticise their appearance, behaviour and esp what they wear.
These men forget their own responsibilites and that is to take good care of the women folk and children in this world... I think it's in the hadith that's what the Prophet (PBUH) said during his last days...
Culture is not religion. Yet alot or people follow culture instead of religion. Where's the
logic in this?
If one follows religion, naturally will respect culture but not the other way.
(Dun forget to be nice!)
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Hmm Cashew I think u are taking it a tiny bit too much to the other side... I dont agree with saying it is the duty of one of them to teach the other, in a marriage both are to teach each other and helping each other improve, it is not like a one way duty. I see the point which you are making here, and I do agree with the basic point esp if the wife is a new Muslim who had more things to learn and was very eager to learn and if the husband was knowledgable...
but I am not too sure about making this general kind of a statement that the husbands duty to teach and the wifes duty to learn, because in reality it goes both ways.
Anna, my point was that the husband, as a Muslim From Birth, had the responsibility of guiding his wife, a new Muslim, into a mature understanding of Islamic faith and practice.
This could have been an experience they shared together.
That this did not happen is what I find so tremendously sad about this story.
They could have had so much fun.
You are young and newly married only once in your life. And there is nothing more wonderful than introducing someone whom you love to something you believe to be beautiful.
They could have read Islamic books together. They could have studied Arabic together. They could have taken Islamic classes, maybe not together, but taken the same class at different times and later discussed what they learned. They could have gotten to know other young Muslim couples.
It's that sort of good fun that young couples share together, those sorts of adventures, that are generally possible only before the little critters arrive. And those sorts of experiences are very important because they bring a young couple even more close.
And please think of the pride this husband could have taken as he watched his wife's knowledge of Islam grow.
It's very sad.
Since I'm now and old and fat person, I have to say that I've often seen people work very very hard at being unhappy.
Doing what it takes to be happy is comparatively easy and so much more pleasant for everyone concerned.
Medievalist
07-12-06, 11:26 AM
You are wrong. This revert sister ain't white! Dun you know that Allah has created different nations so we can get to know one another? If you dun know, check the Holy Quran. BTW, which planet are you from? :(
I think it's offensive to dislike Allah's creations.
And BTW it is not that you couldn't marry a white, you just dun get the chance because of your bias opinion. Even if you have the chance, you would have abused it.
Forgive me if I sounded harsh but what is wrong must be put right.
I take offence to that.
First off ALLAH didnt create different nations so we could get to know one another, according to the Quran it was so we could RECOGNISE one another. Be a bit more cautious about what the Quran says bruv.
Just cos a guy says he has a preference you assume I'd abuse a white wife?
charming.
I also think its offensive to dislike ALLAH's creation :)
If I said I dont wanna marry a chinese girl cos I dont find them attractive - the bandwagon would again roll out and say look he's a racist.
:eek:
just cos people have different tastes doesnt mean they are anti-x people.
grow up
Medievalist
07-12-06, 11:28 AM
Our ustaz always say 'when the converts marry, he worries'.
I can see why he say that because there are alot of ignorant muslim men who are interested in only picking the women's faults ie. criticise their appearance, behaviour and esp what they wear.
These men forget their own responsibilites and that is to take good care of the women folk and children in this world... I think it's in the hadith that's what the Prophet (PBUH) said during his last days...
Culture is not religion. Yet alot or people follow culture instead of religion. Where's the
logic in this?
If one follows religion, naturally will respect culture but not the other way.
(Dun forget to be nice!)
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
culture within the limits of Islam is permitted.
Another member posted summat about jeans and stuff - she CAN wear those in the home with just her husband around but personally I dont like it. I dont like women in western dress - thats a cultural difference jaaiz in Islam but my personal dislike for it means me marrying a woman who dressed that way just to prove my religiousity for a bunch of jokers - aint really wisdom.
i hear this "culture is permitted in islam" a lot whats the daleel for that? because theres nothing i can see in anyones culture, whether asian, arab or european, that brings any benefit to our islam it only brings divisions and bias. The only people i hear saying this are those who wish to retain their jahil ways in regards to only marrying their own race, their own class, etc etc,I would appreciate some specific daleel from Quran and sahih sunnah thats states that adhering to ones jahil culture is something permissible and praiseworthy, this culture crap is what causes more problems in our religion than anything else we are all muslims and Islam is our culture, i find it absolutley shocking that people hide behind "oh its my culture im not a racist"
How can anyone say i will not marry someone from such and such a race because i dont like the look of that race of people? that my brothers and sisters is pure and simple racisim. Allah can put love for anyone from any race in your heart.
May she and her husband find the partner they both deceive. (Same for everyone too!)
I think you meant 'deserve' :rotfl:
.: Anna :.
07-12-06, 05:36 PM
It depends how people define "culture." We can not say a flat statement of "culture" is not allowed in Islam. All aspects of life do have culture attached. Like its culture that people eat certain foods, and cook certain dishes but as long as the food is halal it is permissable... we do not have to eat only Arab food because rasoolallah :saw: was an Arab.
Languages also part of culture, we are permitted to converse with each other in English, Urdu, Tamil, Bengali or whatever...but we read the quran in Arabic and make effort in learning Arabic.
Clothes are part of culture... if a sister wants to wear shalwar kameez in the house, that is part of asian culture, and it is permissable. If a western sister wants to wear skirt and top in her house, which is something in her culture, then it is permissable... but when we go out we were proper hijab.
It is like that, culture is permitted to the extent where it is does not go against Islam. We are not all clones of each other or identical, and there is benefit in wisdom in having the variety and difference.
Also Medievalist what pielle has said is a common translation and is not "wrong". It is in the Asad, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali...
You should not come and say "no it does not say that, it says recognise..."
It does not say "recognise" the word is ta3aarafa, a common meaning of which is "to get to know". Also yes it can mean recognise, and prof Abdel Haleem used the word recognise in his trans. But the point is, what she has said was not "wrong" so why try to jump down her throat? and also just to use a different translation wording of quran to try n prove ur point is kind of low imo, it seems petty? the word has both meanings... you should not come and say "allah did not create different nations and tribes so that we could get to know each other" when Allah himself swt said: wa ja3alnaakum shu3ooban wa qabaa'ila lita3aarafoo.
I suggest u urself shud be careful, than accusing other ppl
Enigma Dreamer
07-12-06, 05:54 PM
I think what brother medivalist was trying to say is arabs dress as they like at home, i.e. jeans, skirts whatever, he meant they wear whatever they want at home in front of their mahrams. Islamically, there is nothing wrong with it. But in asian culture, it is frowned up. For example, I know a very practicing sister who follows the ISlamic dress code outside her home (and follows it very well Mashallah) but she wears whatever she likes at home (skirts, jeans, T-shirts, tops whatever). Had she been a desi, all ladies would look down at her even though she is only dressing like that in front of mahrams. But we have to understand that that's their culture, that's their national dress. You can't expect a revert sister to usually dress in selwar kamiz (unless of course her husband wants her to).
Personally, I won't feel comfortable wearing that sorts of clothes in front of my mahrams, although Islamically I am allowed to. Again, it's a cultural thing for me, I would rather dress in selwar kamiz etc etc.
Assalaamu aleykum.
What you are saying that Arabs wear whatever they like, jeans, skirts, e.t.c @ home is wrong and unislamic. I don't think all the Arabs do that. And you can't wera everything you like @ home. You can only wear what you want when you are with your husband/wife.
Have a look at this.
Question.
What is your opinion of what many women do nowadays, whereby they wear very short clothes when they are with other women and there are no men present? Some of these clothes show a large part of the back and stomach, or they wear these short clothes (like shorts) in front of their children at home?.
Answer.
The Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas issued a statement on this matter, which reads as follows:
Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds, and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon all his family and companions.
The believing women at the beginning of Islam were extremely pure, chaste, and modest, which was the blessing of belief in Allaah and His Messenger and following the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Women at that time used to wear concealing garments, and it is not known that they used to uncover themselves when they met one another or when they met their mahrams. The women of this ummah followed this mode of behaviour – praise be to Allaah – generation after generation until recently, when corruption and impropriety entered the way women dress and behave for many reasons, which we do not have room to discuss here.
Because of the large number of questions that have been sent to the Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas about women looking at women, and what women should wear, the Committee is telling all Muslim women that women are obliged to have an attitude of modesty, which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described as being part of faith and one of the branches of faith. One aspect of the modesty which is enjoined by Islam and by custom is that women should cover themselves, be modest and adopt an attitude and conduct that will keep her far away from falling into fitnah (temptation) and doubtful situations.
The Qur’aan clearly indicates that a woman should not show to other women anything other than that which she shows to her mahrams, that which she customarily uncovers in her own home and when doing housework, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“…and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam)…”
[al-Noor 24:31]
If this is the text of the Qur’aan and this is what is indicated by the Sunnah, then this is what the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah used to do, and the women of the ummah who followed them in truth until the present day. What was usually uncovered in front of the people mentioned in this verse is what women usually uncover when they are at home and when doing housework, which is difficult to avoid, such as uncovering the head, hands, neck and feet.
With regard to going to extremes in uncovering, there is no evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah that this is permissible. This is also the way that leads to a woman tempting or being tempted by other women, which happens among them. It also sets a bad example to other women, as well as being an imitation of kaafir women, prostitutes and immoral women in the way they dress. It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawood. In Saheeh Muslim (2077) it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him wearing two garments dyed with safflower, and he said, “These are from the clothing of the kuffaar – do not wear them.”
It is also narrated in Saheeh Muslim (2128) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, misguided and leading others astray, with their heads like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance may be detected from such and such a distance.”
The meaning of the phrase “clothed yet naked” is that the woman is wearing clothes that do not cover her, so she is clothed, but in fact she is naked, such as when she wears a thin dress that shows the colour of her skin, or a dress that shows the outline of her body, or a short dress that does not cover part of her limbs.
So what Muslim women have to do is to adhere to the guidance followed by the Mothers of the Believers (the Prophet’s wives) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), and the women of this ummah who followed them in truth, and strive to cover themselves and be modest. This is farthest removed from the causes of fitnah and will protect them from the things that lead to provocation of desires and falling into immorality.
Muslim women must also beware of falling into that which Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden of imitating kaafir women and prostitutes, in obedience to Allaah and His Messenger, and in the hope of attaining the reward of Allaah, and for fear of His punishment.
Every Muslim must also fear Allaah with regard to the women who are under his care, and not let them wear things that Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden, such as provocative clothes, or clothes that are revealing or tempting. He should remember that he is a shepherd and will be responsible for his flock on the Day of Resurrection.
We ask Allaah to set the Muslims’ affairs straight, and to guide us all to the straight path, for He is All-Hearing, Ever-Near and Ever Responsive. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions.
Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 17/290
It also says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (17/297):
What a woman is permitted to uncover in front of her children is that which is customarily uncovered, such as the face, hands, forearms, feet and so on.
And Allaah knows best.
Source:http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34745&ln=eng&txt=wear%20in%20front%20of%20mahrams
I think it looks odd to Asian people if they see hijab wearing Arab women outside who then go home and wear (for example) sleeveless tops or things like that around women or their immediate family. A large proportion of Asian families like their daughters to wear shalwar kameez at home and find it scary if a girl wears something like cropped trousers or sleeveless tops (even though it's permitted as long as there are no non mahrams around).
sorry, perhaps this post belongs in the 'when not to wear hijab' thread
.: Anna :.
07-12-06, 07:50 PM
I think it looks odd to Asian people if they see hijab wearing Arab women outside who then go home and wear (for example) sleeveless tops or things like that around women or their immediate family. A large proportion of Asian families like their daughters to wear shalwar kameez at home and find it scary if a girl wears something like cropped trousers or sleeveless tops (even though it's permitted as long as there are no non mahrams around).
sorry, perhaps this post belongs in the 'when not to wear hijab' threadbut its not all cos i do know some asian girls who wear that stuff in their own house... cropped trouser, knee length skirts, vest tops, but outside they were jilbab or niqaab
as western born revert i thought it was pretty bizzare and incredibly insulting when my muslim born arab husband from generations of practising family born and raised in the muslim lands , expected me to walk round in kuffar clothing in the house, everyday stuff like trackies, jeans, t-shirts etc like i was some kind of chav off the street, so its just wrong to say all people wear this or that because of their "culture" out of all the muslim women i know of here, i am one of three who wear khimar and the only one of those three who wears a long jilbab outside always,others wear shalwar khameeze which dont hide the feet ( usually accompanied by high heel shoes) and show the legs and body shape, no khimar, trousers, or tight little scarf wrapped round the neck showing off the chest, and tight jeans, or if they wear a long skirt they would wear flip flops with it and show the feet and they are all from born muslim families for generations, i think we generalise about people far too much.:torture: however we digress..
i hope and pray that Allah guides the sisters husband to the haq and that he repents from his ways and fears Allah ta ala in regards to women amin
.: Anna :.
07-12-06, 08:04 PM
as asians its likely they r hanafi, it seems most are except the sri lankans mainly being shafi... and in hanafi madhhab feet is not awra. so at least think of this reason, than to assume the worst insha allah
as asians its likely they r hanafi, it seems most are except the sri lankans mainly being shafi... and in hanafi madhhab feet is not awra. so at least think of this reason, than to assume the worst insha allah
ya ukhti i wasnt thinking the worst of them, nor should u think the worst of me by thinking i am thinking badly of them :) i was just saying that this is what i see around me so many different ways of dressing and all of them from muslim born people. all im saying my western culture doesnt seem to have contributed at all , as one may assume from some of the posts, to my wearing less clothing than the born muslims, i cover more than they do,despite being from western culture, that was my only point
.: Anna :.
07-12-06, 08:16 PM
no no i did not mean u are thinking the worst but jst trying 2 tell the reason why they are having the feet is probs cos they are hanafi not cos they dnt mind about showing awra insha allah? jst wanted 2 say it incase ur from a non hanafi school n u didnt know their view abt feet so u thought the girls jst being negligent
Enigma Dreamer
07-12-06, 08:57 PM
as western born revert i thought it was pretty bizzare and incredibly insulting when my muslim born arab husband from generations of practising family born and raised in the muslim lands , expected me to walk round in kuffar clothing in the house, everyday stuff like trackies, jeans, t-shirts etc like i was some kind of chav off the street, so its just wrong to say all people wear this or that because of their "culture" out of all the muslim women i know of here, i am one of three who wear khimar and the only one of those three who wears a long jilbab outside always,others wear shalwar khameeze which dont hide the feet ( usually accompanied by high heel shoes) and show the legs and body shape, no khimar, trousers, or tight little scarf wrapped round the neck showing off the chest, and tight jeans, or if they wear a long skirt they would wear flip flops with it and show the feet and they are all from born muslim families for generations, i think we generalise about people far too much.:torture: however we digress..
i hope and pray that Allah guides the sisters husband to the haq and that he repents from his ways and fears Allah ta ala in regards to women amin
Assalaamu aleykum, sister.
What you say is very true. Sister, you should know that many of the born-Muslims, e.t.c. have some cultures that almost have nothing o do with Islam and in some cases, unislamic. Some, because they are Muslims of generations makes them feel everything in their culture is right although sometimes they know it is contrary to Islam's teachings. Problem arises when one tries to mix his/her culture that is against Islam and wants it all look like Islam. This, according to me, is very rampant in the Muslim communities. That is why, according to my view, Some Muslims who are converts tend to be stronger interms of 'Iman than many Muslims who are born Muslims. But then again, there is no generalisation. It is on an individual level. You can see some mashaAllah very good converts. Same way you can see some mashaAllah very good born Muslims.
tahm563
07-12-06, 09:52 PM
Assalaamu aleykum.
What you are saying that Arabs wear whatever they like, jeans, skirts, e.t.c @ home is wrong and unislamic. I don't think all the Arabs do that. And you can't wera everything you like @ home. You can only wear what you want when you are with your husband/wife.
Have a look at this.
Question.
What is your opinion of what many women do nowadays, whereby they wear very short clothes when they are with other women and there are no men present? Some of these clothes show a large part of the back and stomach, or they wear these short clothes (like shorts) in front of their children at home?.
Answer.
The Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas issued a statement on this matter, which reads as follows:
Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds, and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad, and upon all his family and companions.
The believing women at the beginning of Islam were extremely pure, chaste, and modest, which was the blessing of belief in Allaah and His Messenger and following the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Women at that time used to wear concealing garments, and it is not known that they used to uncover themselves when they met one another or when they met their mahrams. The women of this ummah followed this mode of behaviour – praise be to Allaah – generation after generation until recently, when corruption and impropriety entered the way women dress and behave for many reasons, which we do not have room to discuss here.
Because of the large number of questions that have been sent to the Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas about women looking at women, and what women should wear, the Committee is telling all Muslim women that women are obliged to have an attitude of modesty, which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) described as being part of faith and one of the branches of faith. One aspect of the modesty which is enjoined by Islam and by custom is that women should cover themselves, be modest and adopt an attitude and conduct that will keep her far away from falling into fitnah (temptation) and doubtful situations.
The Qur’aan clearly indicates that a woman should not show to other women anything other than that which she shows to her mahrams, that which she customarily uncovers in her own home and when doing housework, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“…and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband’s fathers, or their sons, or their husband’s sons, or their brothers or their brother’s sons, or their sister’s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam)…”
[al-Noor 24:31]
If this is the text of the Qur’aan and this is what is indicated by the Sunnah, then this is what the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah used to do, and the women of the ummah who followed them in truth until the present day. What was usually uncovered in front of the people mentioned in this verse is what women usually uncover when they are at home and when doing housework, which is difficult to avoid, such as uncovering the head, hands, neck and feet.
With regard to going to extremes in uncovering, there is no evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah that this is permissible. This is also the way that leads to a woman tempting or being tempted by other women, which happens among them. It also sets a bad example to other women, as well as being an imitation of kaafir women, prostitutes and immoral women in the way they dress. It was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Narrated by Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawood. In Saheeh Muslim (2077) it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) saw him wearing two garments dyed with safflower, and he said, “These are from the clothing of the kuffaar – do not wear them.”
It is also narrated in Saheeh Muslim (2128) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: people with whips like the tails of cattle, with which they beat the people, and women who are clothed yet naked, misguided and leading others astray, with their heads like the humps of camels, leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise or even smell its fragrance, although its fragrance may be detected from such and such a distance.”
The meaning of the phrase “clothed yet naked” is that the woman is wearing clothes that do not cover her, so she is clothed, but in fact she is naked, such as when she wears a thin dress that shows the colour of her skin, or a dress that shows the outline of her body, or a short dress that does not cover part of her limbs.
So what Muslim women have to do is to adhere to the guidance followed by the Mothers of the Believers (the Prophet’s wives) and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them), and the women of this ummah who followed them in truth, and strive to cover themselves and be modest. This is farthest removed from the causes of fitnah and will protect them from the things that lead to provocation of desires and falling into immorality.
Muslim women must also beware of falling into that which Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden of imitating kaafir women and prostitutes, in obedience to Allaah and His Messenger, and in the hope of attaining the reward of Allaah, and for fear of His punishment.
Every Muslim must also fear Allaah with regard to the women who are under his care, and not let them wear things that Allaah and His Messenger have forbidden, such as provocative clothes, or clothes that are revealing or tempting. He should remember that he is a shepherd and will be responsible for his flock on the Day of Resurrection.
We ask Allaah to set the Muslims’ affairs straight, and to guide us all to the straight path, for He is All-Hearing, Ever-Near and Ever Responsive. May Allaah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon his family and companions.
Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 17/290
It also says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (17/297):
What a woman is permitted to uncover in front of her children is that which is customarily uncovered, such as the face, hands, forearms, feet and so on.
And Allaah knows best.
Source:http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34745&ln=eng&txt=wear%20in%20front%20of%20mahrams
Salam Bro. Jazakallah Khair for reference to this answer. However, I was getting my understanding from here. You might like to read it as well:
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The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation
Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The covering of one’s nakedness (awra) is of utmost importance for a male and female in Islam, thus the Qur’an and Sunna have laid great emphasis with regards to this. We also see the various books of Islamic Jurisprudence (fiqh) discussing the issues relating to the Awra of both the male and female in great detail. In this brief article, I will attempt to shed some light and look comprehensively as to what is a woman’s Awra.
Awra is an Arabic term the plural of which is Awrat. Linguistically, it means a hidden and secret place, and a person’s Awra is that which must be kept hidden. It also refers to everything that causes shame when exposed, thus, the Awra of an individual is the area of the body which (normally) causes embarrassment if exposed. (Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-Arab, 9/370).
In the terminology of Islamic Jurisprudence, Awra refers to the area or part of the body that must be covered with appropriate clothing. In the English language, it is normally translated as ‘nakedness’ or ‘area of the body that must be concealed’. Many people (normally from the Indo/Pak) refer to it as ‘Satar’. For the purpose of simplicity, I will use the term ‘Awra’ in this article, Insha Allah.
The Awra of a woman
A woman’s Awra can be initially divided into two categories:
1) Inside prayer
2) Outside prayer
The latter is then divided into further sub-categories:
a) In seclusion
b) In front of the husband
c) In front of Muslim women
d) In front of Mahram males (unmarriageable kin)
e) In front of non-Mahram males
f) In front of non-Muslim women
g) In front of non-Muslim Mahram males
1) Awra inside prayer (Salat)
A woman’s Awra whilst performing Salat consists of the whole body except the face, hands and feet. Allah Most High says: “O children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel (zeenah) at every time and place of prayer”. (Surah al-A’raf, 31).
The majority of the Companions (Allah be pleased with them all), their followers (tabi’un), Jurists and exegetes of the Qur’an have deduced from this verse (along with the other evidences) the obligation of covering one’s Awra in prayer. (See: Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi, Ahkam al-Qur’an, 4/205, Ma’arif al-Qur’an (English), 3/565).
Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who experiences menstruation (i.e. who has reached puberty, m) except with a head cover (khimar)”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, no. 641, Sunan Tirmizi, Sunan Ibn Majah and others).
The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his renowned Durr al-Mukhtar:
“The Awra for a free woman (i.e. not a slave, m) is her full body including her descending hair according to the correct opinion, except for the face, hands and feet”. (See Radd al-Muhtar, 1/405).
Therefore, a woman must cover herself properly when performing Salat. Everything besides the face, hands and feet must be covered. The face must be covered properly so that no hair is exposed. Also, care should be taken that no part from above the wrists and ankles is exposed.
It must be remembered that the Awra whilst performing Salat must be covered regardless of another person being present or otherwise, and regardless of whether one is performing Salat in dark or light. (Maraqi al-Falah, 210).
The feet, according to the more correct opinion, is not regarded as part of Awra. However, due to the difference of opinion with regards to it, it would be more precautious and advisable to cover them, as it will be explained in detail later.
With regards to the area below the chin, it should be remembered that the limit of the face in length starts from the point where the hairline usually begins to the bottom of the chin, and in breadth the portion between the two earlobes. (Maraqi al-Falah, P. 58)
Keeping this in mind, it becomes clear that the area below the chin is not included in the face, thus it would fall within the legal definition of Awra, and one should try to cover it. However, because of the difficulty in covering it, if a little part of it became exposed, there should not be a problem.
Finally, (in this section), the Awra must be concealed from before entering into Salat and must remain concealed until the end. If quarter of a part/organ that requires concealment is exposed before initiating Salat, then Salat will not be valid from the outset. If however, quarter of the organ which is included in the Awra becomes exposed during Salat, then, if this remains to the duration of reciting Subhan Allah thrice, Salat will become invalid, otherwise, it will be valid. (See: Maraqi al-Falah, P. 242).
Note) One should consult a scholar with regards to how the parts of the body are categorized and divided, for at times, one may regard an organ of the body to be one part, whereas, legally, it may be considered to be two parts.
2) Awra outside prayer
a) Awra in privacy and seclusion
It is necessary (wajib) (and recommended according to another opinion) in the Hanafi school, to cover one’s minimum nakedness (between the navel and knee for both men and women) even when alone. The exception to this is when there is a need, such as taking a shower, relieving oneself, or changing one’s clothes. Even in such situations, it is recommended to minimize the exposure.
The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Modesty is part of faith (iman).” (Sahih al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim).
Ya’la ibn Umayya reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Verily Allah is modest and discreet and He likes modesty and discretion. When one of you takes a bath, one should cover one’s self”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Nasa’I & Musnad Ahmad). This is a command of recommendation when alone.
Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) said in his Durr al-Mukhtar:
“(And to cover one's Awra), this is a general obligation, even when alone, according to the correct opinion, unless it is for a valid reason”.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) writes whilst commenting on the above in his Radd al-Muhtar:
“(al-Haskafi’s statement “Even when alone”) That is: Outside of prayer, it is obligatory to cover one's Awra in front of others by scholarly consensus, and even when alone according to the correct opinion…
Now, the apparent meaning of covering one's Awra when alone outside of prayer (in this context) is that only which is between the navel and knees, such that even women do not have to cover other than that (when alone) even if it is of their Awra in front of others…
(Al-Haskafi’s statement "According to the correct opinion") For Allah Most High, even though He sees the covered just as He sees the naked, sees the one with their nakedness uncovered leaving proper manners and sees the covered exhibiting proper manners. These proper manners (here) are obligatory whenever there is ability to exercise them."
(al-Haskafi’s statement “Unless it is for a valid reason”) Such as, using the toilet or cleaning one self (istinja).” (See: Radd al-Muhtar, 1/405, matlab fi satr al-awra).
Therefore, (according to the more correct opinion), a woman must cover even in privacy between her navel and (including) knees except when there is a need, such as relieving herself, showering, changing her clothes, etc…
b) Awra in front of the husband
In principle, it is permissible for the spouses to look at any part of each others body. As such, there is no Awra in front of the spouse (for this will be exempted from the ruling of concealing in privacy due to need).
Scholars mention however, that although it is permissible for the spouses to look at any part of the partner’s body, it is disliked that they become completely naked during cohabitation. A cover or sheet over the naked bodies would be sufficient.
Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) said: “I never saw the Messenger of Allah’s (Allah bless him & give him peace) private parts”. (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith no. 662).
c) Awra in front of Muslim women
The Awra of a woman in front of fellow Muslim women is the same to that which is a man’s Awra in front of other men, i.e. from the navel up to and including the knees.
It is stated in al-Hidaya:
“A woman may see of another (Muslim, m) woman that which is permitted for a man to see of another man, due to them being from the same sex, and the non-existence of desire (shahwa) between them normally… Similarly, due to the need and requirement of them exposing amongst themselves.” (See: al-Marghinani, al-Hidaya, 4/461).
Therefore, a woman must cover from the navel up to and including her knees in front of other Muslim women.
d) Awra in front of (Muslim) Mahrams (unmarriageable kin)
The Awra of a woman in front of her Mahram men (those with whom marriage is permanently unlawful), such as the father, brother, son, paternal uncle (father’s brother), maternal uncle (mother’s brother), father in-law, grandson, husband’s son (from another marriage), son in-law, etc consists of the area between the navel and knees, and also the stomach and back.
Thus, it will be permissible for a woman to expose the following parts of her body in front of Mahram males: head, hair, face, neck, chest, shoulders, hands, forearms, and legs from below the knees. It will not be permissible to expose the stomach, back or any area which is between the navel and knees. (See: al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya, 5/328 & al-Hidaya, 4/461).
This ruling is based on the verse of the Qur’an in Surah al-Nur:
“They (believing women) must not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husband’s sons, their brothers, their brother’s sons, their sister’s sons or their women…” (24-31).
It will also be permissible for a Mahram to touch those parts that are permissible to expose in front of them, provided there is no fear of temptation or desire.
Imam al-Quduri (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“There is nothing wrong in touching those parts that are permissible to see” (Mukhtasar al-Quduri).
However, it should be remembered that if there is a fear of temptation (fitna), then it will be impermissible to expose these parts even in front of Mahrams, neither will it be permissible to see or touch those areas of a Mahrams body. (See: al-Lubab fi Sharh al-Kitab, 3/218).
e) Awra in front of non-Mahram males
The Awra in front of non-Mahram males (those with whom marriage is unlawful), which includes cousin brother, brother in-law, paternal uncle (one’s father’s sister’s husband), maternal uncle (one’s mother’s sister’s husband), husband’s uncle, husband’s nephew, etc) consists of the whole body except the face, hands and feet. It is similar to that which is considered Awra in prayer (salat).
Imam al-Marghinani (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“It is impermissible for a man to look at the whole body of a non-Mahram woman (due to it being part of Awra, m) except for her face and hands, for Allah Most High says: “Women must not display their beauty and ornaments except what appear thereof” (al-Nur, 31). Sayyiduna Ali and Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) interpreted this verse with the face and hands... This is textual evidence on the impermissibility of looking at her feet (for it is awra, m), but Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah have mercy on him) said that it is permitted to look at her feet due to need”. (al-Hidaya, 4/458).
Imam al-Tumurtashi (Allah have mercy on him) states in Tanwir al-Absar:
“A woman’s Awra consists of her whole body except her face, hands and feet. However, she will be prevented from exposing her face in amongst men due to the fear of temptation (fitna)”.
Therefore, a woman’s Awra in front of non-Mahram men is her whole body except her face, hands and feet.
It must be remarked here that there is a difference between Awra and Niqab or Hijab. Due to the failure of distinguishing between the two, many people become victims of misinterpreting Islamic law in one way or another.
The face according to the scholars is not part of the Awra, yet, as we have seen in the text of Imam al-Tumurtashi, it will be necessary to cover it due to the fear of temptation and incitement. Ibn Abidin states: “(A young woman will be prevented from exposing her face), not because it is part of Awra, rather (for the fear of temptation)”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 1/406).
Thus, our discussion is solely regarding Awra, and not Hijab or Niqab. As far as the decisive ruling with regards to the covering of the face or otherwise is concerned, we leave that for another time.
It is also worth mentioning here that although the Fatwa position in the Hanafi Madhab is that the feet are not included within the Awra, but there is another strong opinion (within the madhhab and according to other Madhabs, such as the Shafi’is), that they are part of Awra, and must be covered. As such, legally, one will not be sinful for exposing them, but it would be advisable as a precautionary measure to cover them.
Moreover, (according to the Fatwa opinion), it is only allowed to uncover the feet up to the ankles. Anything above the ankles is from the Awra without a doubt. Many women wear veils, Burqas and Jilbabs that normally cover the ankles, but reveal the leg area above this while walking (especially in the wind, sitting and coming out of a car, etc), thus they commit the sin of exposing What is considered Awra according to all.
Therefore, we need to emphasise the importance of covering the feet. Covering the feet is just as important as covering the face if not more, for the face is not considered part of Awra, whilst, there is a strong opinion in the Hanafi Madhhab (and the Fatwa opinion in the other madhhabs) that the feet are.
Those who strongly call for and emphasise the necessity of covering the face (not that I object to them) must also realise that the feet are just of the same importance. At times, all the emphasis is laid upon the face, whilst the woman is seen to expose the area above the ankle while walking and there is no realisation that a sin is being committed.
f) Awra in front of non-Muslim women
The Awra of a woman in front of non-Muslim women is, strictly speaking, the same that is in front of non-Mahram men, i.e. the whole body besides the hands, face and the feet.
The verse of Surah al-Nur that we quoted earlier details the list of people besides whom a woman is not allowed to expose her beauty. Such people (as explained earlier) are known to be her Mahrams (unmarriageable kin). Also, in that verse, Allah Almighty states: “their women” (al-Nur, 31) indicating that a woman must only expose herself to her woman and not others.
The exegetes of the Qur’an differ with regards to the interpretation of this statement of Allah. Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“With regards to the statement of Allah “or their women”, there are two opinions. The first is that it refers to those women who are on the same religion (din) as them (i.e. Muslims, m). This is the opinion of the majority of the predecessors (salaf). Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) states: “It is impermissible for a believing/Muslim woman to uncover herself in front of non-Muslim women, and she is only allowed to expose that what is allowed in front of non-Mahram men… Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) wrote to Abu Ubaida ibn al-Jarrah (Allah be pleased with him) to stop non-Muslim women from entering bath areas (hammam) with Muslim women.
The second opinion is that, it refers to all the women (i.e. she may uncover in front of all the women, m). This is the adopted opinion, and the opinion of the predecessors is based on superiority (istihbab)”. (See: Tafsir al-Kabir, 8/365).
As we have seen, that Imam al-Razi (Allah have mercy on him) adopted the second view in that a woman may uncover in front of non-Muslim women to the extent of what she is allowed to uncover in front of Mahram men.
However, many scholars chose the first view, and it is the view that is adopted by the Hanafi School. Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“An unbelieving woman is similar to a non-Mahram man according to the correct opinion. Thus, she is not allowed to see the body of a Muslim woman”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 6/371).
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) explains:
“It is impermissible for a Muslim woman to uncover in front of a Jewish, Christian or a atheist woman except if she is her slave…It is also disliked that a corrupt woman (fasiqa) sees the body of a pious woman, for she may describe her to the men, thus she should avoid taking off her outer garment (jilbab) or scarf (khimar)”. (ibid).
It is evident from the text of Ibn Abidin that the main reason for the impermissibility of uncovering in front of a non-Muslim woman is that she may describe her to other men. If this is feared from a corrupt Muslim woman, then one should avoid uncovering in front of her also.
Therefore, the Awra of a woman in front of non-Muslim women is all her body except her face, hands and feet. Thus, a woman should cover in front of non-Muslim women whenever reasonably possible. However, scholars say that if this is difficult, then it will be permissible to expose some part of the body in front of them.
The ruling of covering in front of non-Muslim women is not as strict as the other situations, for, firstly, there is a difference of opinion between the scholars regarding it, and secondly, it may be at times very difficult to cover in front of women. The great exegete, Imam al-Alusi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“This opinion (of not covering in front of non-Muslim women) is more appropriate these days, for it is almost impossible to cover in front of them”. (Ruh al-Ma’ani).
In conclusion, a woman should cover whenever reasonably possible in front of non-Muslim women, especially when there is fear that she may describe her to other men. Also nowadays, Fitnahs such as lesbianism have become so wide spread that it has become necessary for women to observe caution with non-Muslim women. However, if it is difficult to fully cover, then one may take the concession on not covering and minimising it to the minimum.
g) Awra in front of non-Muslim Mahrams
With regards to a woman’s Awra in front of her Mahrams who are non-Muslim, such as a non-Muslim father, brother, son, etc, I could not find an explicit ruling on the issue in the Hanafi School.
However, it seems that non-Muslim Mahrams are similar to other Mahrams in that a woman may expose herself besides from the navel to the knee and the stomach and back, provided there is no fear of temptation (fitna).
There are two reasons for this:
Firstly, the verse of the Qur’an and the statements of the jurists (fuqaha) are general when discussing Mahrams. They don’t distinguish between a non-Muslim and Muslim Mahram. The Qur’an permits a woman to expose herself (to a degree, as explained above) in front of her father, brother, son, etc without specifying that he be a Muslim.
Secondly, the Fuqaha explicitly mention that a Mahram with whom a woman may go on a journey of Hajj includes also a non-Muslim. Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“A woman may travel for Hajj with her husband or a Mahram, even though if he (Mahram) is a slave or a non-Muslim or (he is considered a Mahram, m) due to breastfeeding. He must have reached puberty and is sane, and a boy who is close to puberty is like the one who has reached puberty, except a fire worshipper and an immoral and corrupt person”.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) explains:
“The reason why travelling with a Mahram who is a fire worshipper is impermissible, is that they (fire worshippers, m) consider marriage with a close relative to be permissible”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 2/464)
Imam al-Kasani (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“A Mahram is one with whom marriage is permanently unlawful… whether this Mahram is a free person or a slave, for slavery is not contrary to the close relationship (mahramiyya), and whether he is a Muslim, a non-Muslim or an atheist (mushrik), for a non-Muslim Mahram normally safeguards her, except that he is a fire worshipper, for he considers marriage with her to be permissible”. (Badai’i al-Sana’i, 2/124).
It is stated in Fath al-Qadir:
“It is permissible for her to travel with all types of Mahrams except a fire worshipper, for he believes marriage with her to be permissible”. (Ibn al-Humam, Fath al-Qadir, 2/422).
In the Shafi’i Madhhab, we have a clear text permitting the uncovering in front of a non-Muslim Mahram. Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“It is not permissible to look at what lies between the navel and knee of one’s close relative (mahram); everything else is permissible, provided there is no desire (shahwah), and even if he is a non-Muslim, because the close relationship (mahramiyyah) makes marriage unlawful, so it is as if they were two males or two females”. (Tuhfat al-Muhtaj ala al-Minhaj).
Therefore, it would be permissible for a woman to uncover besides the area between the navel and knees, and the stomach and back in front of her non-Muslim Mahrams, provided two conditions are met:
1) that there be no desire (shahwah) or fear of temptation (fitna), especially when we live in a age where evils such as incest among the non-Muslims is becoming common,
2) that the non-Muslim close relative not be from among those who believe that it is permissible to marry close relatives,
Finally before parting, I would like to mention in relation to our discussion three points.
Firstly, it should be remembered that all the parts of the body that need to be covered (in the various situations discussed above) must be covered with clothing that is loose and opaque. The clothing must not be close-fitting whereby the figure of the body is visible or transparent by which the colour of the body is able to be seen. If this is not taken care of, then it will not be regarded to be sufficient covering of the Awra.
Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“Clothing that is considered to be sufficient covering is such that, it is not possible to see thorough them”.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) explains:
“(It is not possible to see thorough them), meaning in a way that the colour of the skin can not be visible. This exempts thin and other see-through clothing… However, if the clothing is thick in a way that the colour of the skin is not visible, but it is tight to the body, then this should not prevent the validity of Salat… However, it is still impermissible to see that part of the body”. (See: Radd al-Muhtar ala al-Durr al-Mukhtar, 1/410).
This excerpt of Ibn Abidin explains that if the skin of the body becomes visible in prayer, Salat will become invalid. However, tight clothing would not prevent the validity of prayer, yet it is still necessary not to wear tight-fitting clothing.
Secondly, in all the foregoing occasions where it is permissible to uncover and expose the body, if there is a fear of desire (shahwa) on either side or there is fear of temptation (fitna), then it will be necessary to cover. A woman may make this decision herself in accordance with the surroundings she is in.
Thirdly, it will be permissible to uncover and expose parts of the Awra in cases of extreme need and necessity, such as medication. However, care should be taken that this is limited to only the part that needs treatment. If treatment is needed on the actual private parts, then it would be better to receive treatment from someone of the same sex. However, if this is not possible, then it would be allowed to receive treatment from a specialist of the opposite sex, with taking due care of the injunctions and guidance of Shariah.
Allama Ibn Abidin ( may Allah have mercy on him) states:
“It is permissible for a male physician to view the affected area of a woman for the purpose of medication, provided it is minimised to only the area that actually needs treatment, for necessity is restricted to only the actual need. If the private parts need treatment, then a female should carry out the treatment, as seeing someone of the same sex is less of an evil”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 5/261).
The above was a comprehensive look at the Awra of a woman. The extent of the Awra differs from one occasion to another and from one person to another. The whole concept and idea behind this is that Islam desires its followers to live a life that is chaste and free from any type of corruption or immorality. This is a basis for every sound and pure society. May Allah guide us all to the straight path, and that we are able to act upon the injunctions of Shariah in a manner that is most pleasing to Allah Almighty.
And Allah knows best
Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
Source: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=10&ID=2039&CATE=128
Enigma Dreamer
07-12-06, 09:57 PM
Salam Bro. Jazakallah Khair for reference to this answer. However, I was getting my understanding from here. You might like to read it as well:
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The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation
Answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
The Fiqh of Covering One's Nakedness (Awra): A Detailed Explanation
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The covering of one’s nakedness (awra) is of utmost importance for a male and female in Islam, thus the Qur’an and Sunna have laid great emphasis with regards to this. We also see the various books of Islamic Jurisprudence (fiqh) discussing the issues relating to the Awra of both the male and female in great detail. In this brief article, I will attempt to shed some light and look comprehensively as to what is a woman’s Awra.
Awra is an Arabic term the plural of which is Awrat. Linguistically, it means a hidden and secret place, and a person’s Awra is that which must be kept hidden. It also refers to everything that causes shame when exposed, thus, the Awra of an individual is the area of the body which (normally) causes embarrassment if exposed. (Ibn Manzur, Lisan al-Arab, 9/370).
In the terminology of Islamic Jurisprudence, Awra refers to the area or part of the body that must be covered with appropriate clothing. In the English language, it is normally translated as ‘nakedness’ or ‘area of the body that must be concealed’. Many people (normally from the Indo/Pak) refer to it as ‘Satar’. For the purpose of simplicity, I will use the term ‘Awra’ in this article, Insha Allah.
The Awra of a woman
A woman’s Awra can be initially divided into two categories:
1) Inside prayer
2) Outside prayer
The latter is then divided into further sub-categories:
a) In seclusion
b) In front of the husband
c) In front of Muslim women
d) In front of Mahram males (unmarriageable kin)
e) In front of non-Mahram males
f) In front of non-Muslim women
g) In front of non-Muslim Mahram males
1) Awra inside prayer (Salat)
A woman’s Awra whilst performing Salat consists of the whole body except the face, hands and feet. Allah Most High says: “O children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel (zeenah) at every time and place of prayer”. (Surah al-A’raf, 31).
The majority of the Companions (Allah be pleased with them all), their followers (tabi’un), Jurists and exegetes of the Qur’an have deduced from this verse (along with the other evidences) the obligation of covering one’s Awra in prayer. (See: Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi, Ahkam al-Qur’an, 4/205, Ma’arif al-Qur’an (English), 3/565).
Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Allah does not accept the prayer of a woman who experiences menstruation (i.e. who has reached puberty, m) except with a head cover (khimar)”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, no. 641, Sunan Tirmizi, Sunan Ibn Majah and others).
The great Hanafi jurist, Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his renowned Durr al-Mukhtar:
“The Awra for a free woman (i.e. not a slave, m) is her full body including her descending hair according to the correct opinion, except for the face, hands and feet”. (See Radd al-Muhtar, 1/405).
Therefore, a woman must cover herself properly when performing Salat. Everything besides the face, hands and feet must be covered. The face must be covered properly so that no hair is exposed. Also, care should be taken that no part from above the wrists and ankles is exposed.
It must be remembered that the Awra whilst performing Salat must be covered regardless of another person being present or otherwise, and regardless of whether one is performing Salat in dark or light. (Maraqi al-Falah, 210).
The feet, according to the more correct opinion, is not regarded as part of Awra. However, due to the difference of opinion with regards to it, it would be more precautious and advisable to cover them, as it will be explained in detail later.
With regards to the area below the chin, it should be remembered that the limit of the face in length starts from the point where the hairline usually begins to the bottom of the chin, and in breadth the portion between the two earlobes. (Maraqi al-Falah, P. 58)
Keeping this in mind, it becomes clear that the area below the chin is not included in the face, thus it would fall within the legal definition of Awra, and one should try to cover it. However, because of the difficulty in covering it, if a little part of it became exposed, there should not be a problem.
Finally, (in this section), the Awra must be concealed from before entering into Salat and must remain concealed until the end. If quarter of a part/organ that requires concealment is exposed before initiating Salat, then Salat will not be valid from the outset. If however, quarter of the organ which is included in the Awra becomes exposed during Salat, then, if this remains to the duration of reciting Subhan Allah thrice, Salat will become invalid, otherwise, it will be valid. (See: Maraqi al-Falah, P. 242).
Note) One should consult a scholar with regards to how the parts of the body are categorized and divided, for at times, one may regard an organ of the body to be one part, whereas, legally, it may be considered to be two parts.
2) Awra outside prayer
a) Awra in privacy and seclusion
It is necessary (wajib) (and recommended according to another opinion) in the Hanafi school, to cover one’s minimum nakedness (between the navel and knee for both men and women) even when alone. The exception to this is when there is a need, such as taking a shower, relieving oneself, or changing one’s clothes. Even in such situations, it is recommended to minimize the exposure.
The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Modesty is part of faith (iman).” (Sahih al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim).
Ya’la ibn Umayya reports that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Verily Allah is modest and discreet and He likes modesty and discretion. When one of you takes a bath, one should cover one’s self”. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan Nasa’I & Musnad Ahmad). This is a command of recommendation when alone.
Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) said in his Durr al-Mukhtar:
“(And to cover one's Awra), this is a general obligation, even when alone, according to the correct opinion, unless it is for a valid reason”.
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) writes whilst commenting on the above in his Radd al-Muhtar:
“(al-Haskafi’s statement “Even when alone”) That is: Outside of prayer, it is obligatory to cover one's Awra in front of others by scholarly consensus, and even when alone according to the correct opinion…
Now, the apparent meaning of covering one's Awra when alone outside of prayer (in this context) is that only which is between the navel and knees, such that even women do not have to cover other than that (when alone) even if it is of their Awra in front of others…
(Al-Haskafi’s statement "According to the correct opinion") For Allah Most High, even though He sees the covered just as He sees the naked, sees the one with their nakedness uncovered leaving proper manners and sees the covered exhibiting proper manners. These proper manners (here) are obligatory whenever there is ability to exercise them."
(al-Haskafi’s statement “Unless it is for a valid reason”) Such as, using the toilet or cleaning one self (istinja).” (See: Radd al-Muhtar, 1/405, matlab fi satr al-awra).
Therefore, (according to the more correct opinion), a woman must cover even in privacy between her navel and (including) knees except when there is a need, such as relieving herself, showering, changing her clothes, etc…
b) Awra in front of the husband
In principle, it is permissible for the spouses to look at any part of each others body. As such, there is no Awra in front of the spouse (for this will be exempted from the ruling of concealing in privacy due to need).
Scholars mention however, that although it is permissible for the spouses to look at any part of the partner’s body, it is disliked that they become completely naked during cohabitation. A cover or sheet over the naked bodies would be sufficient.
Sayyida Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) said: “I never saw the Messenger of Allah’s (Allah bless him & give him peace) private parts”. (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith no. 662).
c) Awra in front of Muslim women
The Awra of a woman in front of fellow Muslim women is the same to that which is a man’s Awra in front of other men, i.e. from the navel up to and including the knees.
It is stated in al-Hidaya:
“A woman may see of another (Muslim, m) woman that which is permitted for a man to see of another man, due to them being from the same sex, and the non-existence of desire (shahwa) between them normally… Similarly, due to the need and requirement of them exposing amongst themselves.” (See: al-Marghinani, al-Hidaya, 4/461).
Therefore, a woman must cover from the navel up to and including her knees in front of other Muslim women.
d) Awra in front of (Muslim) Mahrams (unmarriageable kin)
The Awra of a woman in front of her Mahram men (those with whom marriage is permanently unlawful), such as the father, brother, son, paternal uncle (father’s brother), maternal uncle (mother’s brother), father in-law, grandson, husband’s son (from another marriage), son in-law, etc consists of the area between the navel and knees, and also the stomach and back.
Thus, it will be permissible for a woman to expose the following parts of her body in front of Mahram males: head, hair, face, neck, chest, shoulders, hands, forearms, and legs from below the knees. It will not be permissible to expose the stomach, back or any area which is between the navel and knees. (See: al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya, 5/328 & al-Hidaya, 4/461).
This ruling is based on the verse of the Qur’an in Surah al-Nur:
“They (believing women) must not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husband’s sons, their brothers, their brother’s sons, their sister’s sons or their women…” (24-31).
It will also be permissible for a Mahram to touch those parts that are permissible to expose in front of them, provided there is no fear of temptation or desire.
Imam al-Quduri (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“There is nothing wrong in touching those parts that are permissible to see” (Mukhtasar al-Quduri).
However, it should be remembered that if there is a fear of temptation (fitna), then it will be impermissible to expose these parts even in front of Mahrams, neither will it be permissible to see or touch those areas of a Mahrams body. (See: al-Lubab fi Sharh al-Kitab, 3/218).
e) Awra in front of non-Mahram males
The Awra in front of non-Mahram males (those with whom marriage is unlawful), which includes cousin brother, brother in-law, paternal uncle (one’s father’s sister’s husband), maternal uncle (one’s mother’s sister’s husband), husband’s uncle, husband’s nephew, etc) consists of the whole body except the face, hands and feet. It is similar to that which is considered Awra in prayer (salat).
Imam al-Marghinani (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“It is impermissible for a man to look at the whole body of a non-Mahram woman (due to it being part of Awra, m) except for her face and hands, for Allah Most High says: “Women must not display their beauty and ornaments except what appear thereof” (al-Nur, 31). Sayyiduna Ali and Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) interpreted this verse with the face and hands... This is textual evidence on the impermissibility of looking at her feet (for it is awra, m), but Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah have mercy on him) said that it is permitted to look at her feet due to need”. (al-Hidaya, 4/458).
Imam al-Tumurtashi (Allah have mercy on him) states in Tanwir al-Absar:
“A woman’s Awra consists of her whole body except her face, hands and feet. However, she will be prevented from exposing her face in amongst men due to the fear of temptation (fitna)”.
Therefore, a woman’s Awra in front of non-Mahram men is her whole body except her face, hands and feet.
It must be remarked here that there is a difference between Awra and Niqab or Hijab. Due to the failure of distinguishing between the two, many people become victims of misinterpreting Islamic law in one way or another.
The face according to the scholars is not part of the Awra, yet, as we have seen in the text of Imam al-Tumurtashi, it will be necessary to cover it due to the fear of temptation and incitement. Ibn Abidin states: “(A young woman will be prevented from exposing her face), not because it is part of Awra, rather (for the fear of temptation)”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 1/406).
Thus, our discussion is solely regarding Awra, and not Hijab or Niqab. As far as the decisive ruling with regards to the covering of the face or otherwise is concerned, we leave that for another time.
It is also worth mentioning here that although the Fatwa position in the Hanafi Madhab is that the feet are not included within the Awra, but there is another strong opinion (within the madhhab and according to other Madhabs, such as the Shafi’is), that they are part of Awra, and must be covered. As such, legally, one will not be sinful for exposing them, but it would be advisable as a precautionary measure to cover them.
Moreover, (according to the Fatwa opinion), it is only allowed to uncover the feet up to the ankles. Anything above the ankles is from the Awra without a doubt. Many women wear veils, Burqas and Jilbabs that normally cover the ankles, but reveal the leg area above this while walking (especially in the wind, sitting and coming out of a car, etc), thus they commit the sin of exposing What is considered Awra according to all.
Therefore, we need to emphasise the importance of covering the feet. Covering the feet is just as important as covering the face if not more, for the face is not considered part of Awra, whilst, there is a strong opinion in the Hanafi Madhhab (and the Fatwa opinion in the other madhhabs) that the feet are.
Those who strongly call for and emphasise the necessity of covering the face (not that I object to them) must also realise that the feet are just of the same importance. At times, all the emphasis is laid upon the face, whilst the woman is seen to expose the area above the ankle while walking and there is no realisation that a sin is being committed.
f) Awra in front of non-Muslim women
The Awra of a woman in front of non-Muslim women is, strictly speaking, the same that is in front of non-Mahram men, i.e. the whole body besides the hands, face and the feet.
The verse of Surah al-Nur that we quoted earlier details the list of people besides whom a woman is not allowed to expose her beauty. Such people (as explained earlier) are known to be her Mahrams (unmarriageable kin). Also, in that verse, Allah Almighty states: “their women” (al-Nur, 31) indicating that a woman must only expose herself to her woman and not others.
The exegetes of the Qur’an differ with regards to the interpretation of this statement of Allah. Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“With regards to the statement of Allah “or their women”, there are two opinions. The first is that it refers to those women who are on the same religion (din) as them (i.e. Muslims, m). This is the opinion of the majority of the predecessors (salaf). Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) states: “It is impermissible for a believing/Muslim woman to uncover herself in front of non-Muslim women, and she is only allowed to expose that what is allowed in front of non-Mahram men… Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattab (Allah be pleased with him) wrote to Abu Ubaida ibn al-Jarrah (Allah be pleased with him) to stop non-Muslim women from entering bath areas (hammam) with Muslim women.
The second opinion is that, it refers to all the women (i.e. she may uncover in front of all the women, m). This is the adopted opinion, and the opinion of the predecessors is based on superiority (istihbab)”. (See: Tafsir al-Kabir, 8/365).
As we have seen, that Imam al-Razi (Allah have mercy on him) adopted the second view in that a woman may uncover in front of non-Muslim women to the extent of what she is allowed to uncover in front of Mahram men.
However, many scholars chose the first view, and it is the view that is adopted by the Hanafi School. Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:
“An unbelieving woman is similar to a non-Mahram man according to the correct opinion. Thus, she is not allowed to see the body of a Muslim woman”. (Radd al-Muhtar, 6/371).
Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) explains:
“It is impermissible for a Muslim woman to uncover in front of a Jewish, Christian or a atheist woman except if she is her slave…It is also disliked that a corrupt woman (fasiqa) sees the body of a pious woman, for she may describe her to the men, thus she should avoid taking off her outer garment (jilbab) or scarf (khimar)”. (ibid).
It is evident from the text of Ibn Abidin that the main reason for the impermissibility of uncovering in front of a non-Muslim woman is that she may describe her to other men. If this is feared from a corrup