What a'qida are you?

[Marwan]

I was hoping to get a census on this. No sarcastic remarks, please. This is important, as future articles I post will be based on this poll.

[Ibn al-Mubarak]

Most of the people here probably dont even know what those options mean so what is the point?

[maya ayam]

:| knowledege limited.

[.: Rashid :.]

yeah i dunno what 3 of them mean :p

-Rashid

[M14454D]

Huh?!

[Enigma Dreamer]

I would ask this bro/sis to delete this thread and if they can't, request bro Sajd to do it as soon as possible. I don't think it serves any good purpose. We are all one ummah. That is why we are on ummah.com! Please let us stop the divide as much as we can.
JazaakhumuLlahu kheiran, brothers and sisters.

[Marwan]

The purpose of the thread is not to create fitna. This is why I didn't include any questions like, "why do you think your a'qida is the best?"

The purpose was to collect a statistic for future purposes. If I post a thread about Sh. Abdul Qadir Jilani, can I include his famous critiques of the A'sharis? Or would that offend some posters here?

That's all.

[Marwan]

:| knowledege limited.

I think the compedium of muslim texts had the best article on the topic, without resorting to partisan hackery:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/introduction/aqeedah_alqari.html

[Salman Al-Farsi]

none of the above :S

[Abu Hurairah]

I would ask this bro/sis to delete this thread and if they can't, request bro Sajd to do it as soon as possible. I don't think it serves any good purpose. We are all one ummah. That is why we are on ummah.com! Please let us stop the divide as much as we can.
JazaakhumuLlahu kheiran, brothers and sisters.
I see no cause to remove or lock this thread at all.

It does not from the outset seem to be a thread creating any fitnah nor is Akhy Marwan known for doing so- just vote/ post or avoid doing so, khalas.

[awwabah]

salam alaykum,

I pick flowers from each and every garden so long as they agree with the Quran and sunnah.

I'm just a Muslim :up:

what's athari?

[al-ghazalli]

Athari Aqeedah is basically what the authenthic Hanbali Ulema follow, if one looks into the books of the hanablis in Aqeedah and Fiqh it will always state "bi la kayr wa la ma`na" (without asking how and without delving into its meaning) They explained this is how the Hanabilah approach the Mutashabihat in that they take it for face value and leave it alone.

As for Maliki's and Shafi they usually follow Ashari Aqeedah

Hanafi's are mainly Muturidi.

Imam Imām as-Safārīnī’a (Rahimullah) who represents the mu`tamad in the hanbali madhab stated that Ahl as-Sunnah is represented by the Ashari, Mutruidi and Athari Aqeedah" and this has been agreed upon by all tradition Scholars.


With Allah is all Success.

[awwabah]

once again, jazak Allah khairan,

May Allah increase your knowledge and make it useful for His ummah allahum aameen

wa salam alaykum wa rahmatu Allah wa barakatuh

[Marwan]

Athari Aqeedah is basically what the authenthic Hanbali Ulema follow, if one looks into the books of the hanablis in Aqeedah and Fiqh it will always state "bi la kayr wa la ma`na" (without asking how and without delving into its meaning) They explained this is how the Hanabilah approach the Mutashabihat in that they take it for face value and leave it alone.

As for Maliki's and Shafi they usually follow Ashari Aqeedah

Hanafi's are mainly Muturidi.

Imam Imām as-Safārīnī’a (Rahimullah) who represents the mu`tamad in the hanbali madhab stated that Ahl as-Sunnah is represented by the Ashari, Mutruidi and Athari Aqeedah" and this has been agreed upon by all tradition Scholars.


With Allah is all Success.

Would it sound fishy to you if I said I was A'thari and Hanafi? :D

Jazakumullah khayr brothers & sisters for your patience. Seeing that we have a little of each in this forum, including those staying on the fence on this one, I will make sure to be more cautious when I post threads in the future and not post things based on a whim.

[al-ghazalli]

Would it sound fishy to you if I said I was A'thari and Hanafi?

Jazakumullah khayr brothers & sisters for your patience. Seeing that we have a little of each in this forum, including those staying on the fence on this one, I will make sure to be more cautious when I post threads in the future and not post things based on a whim.


lol sidi you make me laugh...I would find it strange but i'm sure its happened before, one of my Shaykhs (May Allah Preserve Him) is Maliki and refuses to make tawil of Allah's attributes so I guess he's athari :P

But Sidi giving someone honest neishia is not forbidden as long as its does with hikmah. But the difference between these three groups is not big as some would like us to believe, the difference occurs in secondary aspects of aqeedah such as to make tawil or to leave it alone or the difference is in semantics.



And with Allah is all Success.

[kalaliah]

As Salaamu Waalaikum:D

Masha'allah that you started this poll because from the different responses i actually learned something new!

I'm from Philadelphia and the muslims here mostly follow the manhaj of the Salafi which is also the methodology I follow as well masha'allah:D

But here we're taught that's the only methodology that adheres to Quran & Sunnah correctly BUT allahu Aalam

So insha'allah if anyone would like to share the differences between the methodologies it would help my learning process alot!

Jazakallahu Khayran:inlove:

[al-ghazalli]

But here we're taught that's the only methodology that adheres to Quran & Sunnah correctly BUT allahu Aalam

As Salam Alukum

In the Name of Allah the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate

Bismillah wal Hamdulilah was Salatu was Salam 'ala Sayyidina Rasul Allah.

Before I mention the main difference I do wish for this to be turned into some thread on flaming for I've seen many topics on this on different forums and lets just say its not to pretty.

Unfortunately the Salafi Ulema tend to make things black and white in Islam such as the aspects of Aqeedah. To them the Asharis and Muturidis are Jahmis for they feel we deny Allah's attributes as for their issue with the Athari it is one of Tafwid al-Mana.

Our main difference in Aqeedah with the Salafi's in the issue of Mutashabihat (such as Allah's eye, face) etc

The Asharis and Muturidi have allowed the use of tawil (figurative interpretation) as Shaykh al-Islam Imam Nawawi states in his sharh of Sahih Muslim and in al-Majmu;

"The most well-known of the school of the theologians (mutakallimin) says that the divine attributes are interpreted figuratively according to what befits them. Others say that they are not interpreted but that one refrains from speaking concerning their meaning, and defers its actual knowledge (yuwakkilu `ilmaha) to Allah, all the while holding the belief that Allah is transcendent above all things and that the attributes of the created are negated concerning Him, so that it said, for example: We believe that the Merciful is established over the Throne, and we do not know the reality of the meaning of this nor what is meant by it (la na`lamu haqiqata mi`na dhalika wa al-murada bihi), while we do believe that "There is nothing like Him whatsoever" (42:11) and that He is exalted far above the most elevated of created things. That is the way of the Salaf or at least their vast majority, and it is the safest because one is not required to probe into such matters. Therefore, if he believes in Allah's transcendence there is no need for him to probe this nor to think about what is neither obligatory nor even needed to know. However, if there is a need for interpretation (ta'wil) in order to refute innovators and their like, then they (the Salaf) went ahead and applied interpretation. This is the correct understanding of what has reached us from the scholars concerning this subject, and Allah knows best."

Nawawi repeats in many places of his Sharh Sahih Muslim this un equivocal characterization of "the vast majority of the Salaf" or even "most or all of them" as people who applied figurative interpretation of the divine attributes in the Qur'an and the Sunna at the appropriate time and places. Rejecting all notions of artificial divisions between the methods of Muslims, he shows that there is no difference between the intentions of the Salaf and those of kalam scholars -- Ash`aris -- regarding the sound application of figurative interpretation -- if there is a need, as he says, in order to refute innovators and their like.

As for the Salafi's they believe in Allah's attributes but while the rest stay silent on the meaning of it, they take it literally and say its haqqaqi. This is where the differ from the vast majority and this is why some Ulema are highly critical of them.

As for the average person the best advice is to follow the majority when someone asks you about Allah's attributes you believe in them without asking how nor dwelling onto its meaning ("bi la kayr wa la ma`na")

This is how the Hanbali's approach it also as read Imām as-Safārīnī’a mentions in his ) poem Lawāmi’ al-Anwār al-Bahiyyah wa Sawāti’ al-Asrār al-Athariyyah which is an explanation of his own poem in Atharī creed tittled ad-Durrah al-Madiyyah fi Aqīdah al-Firqatil Mardiyyah.

You will notice also that the Salafi's invented a phrase called invented Tafwid al-Kayf ("relegation of the 'how'") so when you look through the Athari books published in Saudi such as Imām as-Safārīnī’a books So in every single instance where the Hanbali scholars say "bi la kayf wa la ma`na" they say "Oh what he really meant was tafwid of the kayf".

This is what was explained to me by Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdullah Al-Subayyil Raees of the Shu'oon Al-Haramain and the most Eldest , Most respectable Imam of Masjidul Haraam and the head of the affairs of the both masajid of Haramain.

And with Allah is all Success.

[kalaliah]

Waalaikum Salaam:D

Jazakallahu Khayran Akhee:inlove:

Most of the Ilm you gave me is above my head because I'm still learning my deen & so far i only have Ilm of beginners Aqeedah & Ilm of my Salah Al-humduillah so as far as the school of thoughts I'm oblivious to all besides Salafi masha'allah

But I'm going to make Du'a that Allah Ta'ala gives me the taufiq on this matter Ameen

Shukraan for your assisitance though it is most appreciated:inlove:

[faqir]

This is what was explained to me by Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdullah Al-Subayyil Raees of the Shu'oon Al-Haramain and the most Eldest , Most respectable Imam of Masjidul Haraam and the head of the affairs of the both masajid of Haramain.

And with Allah is all Success.


as-salamu alaikum

I tend to agree with the Ash'aris.

I have a question for sidi al-ghazalli.

Is the above mentioned shaikh a Mufawwid? If so, have you got any proof from his works or perhaps his talks? I doubt any salafi would believe this is the case without clear cut proof from you.

[al-ghazalli]

Walakum As Salam wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

Is the above mentioned shaikh a Mufawwid? If so, have you got any proof from his works or perhaps his talks? I doubt any salafi would believe this is the case without clear cut proof from you.

The Shaykh (May Allah Preserve Him) follows the authenthic athari aqeedah, he is pure hanabli to the bone. Unfortunately for the statement that I mentioned it was told to me personally when I went to Saudi Arabia and sat in his study circle.

But this should be no secret the Shaykh has mentioned this many times, to the horror of many Salafis :) Sidi Faqir if you are familiar with Shibli Zaman then I think you would know what I am talking about.


And with Allah is all Success.

[faqir]

One more question I'd like to ask sidi al-ghazalli as he seems to be familiar with Safarini's works. How do you explain the following statement from the Safarini's own sharh to his poem:


al-Saffarini says: ‘Some scholars said: (the saved sect) meaning, Ahl al-Hadeeth, i.e. the Atharis, the Ash’aris and the Maturidis.

I say: The wording of the Hadeeth, i.e. his statement: ‘except one sect’, contradicts the idea of multiplicity, and thus I said:

This text (about the saved sect) cannot be applied to any sect
Save the Ahl al-Athar’ (1/76)



has Safarini contradicted himself?

[faqir]

as-salamu alaikum

did you record the talk where he -Subayyil- said this?

do you have any names or examples of true Mufawwid Hanbali scholars in existence today who are well-known and you can produce proof that this is the case.

forgive me for being skeptical but i doubt such people exist.

[al-ghazalli]

I would honestly have to ask around Sidi, the Athari aqeedah is not my primiary area of study but most likely this is a distortion of the Imam's word. I would have to email some hanbali Ulema but the only thing they sometimes take really long to reply back.

If you can get a hold of Shibli ask him and inshallah I will also try to ask him.

[faqir]

Yes please do that sidi, I don't know Shibli Zaman but have only heard of him - if he is an authority on these matters then please do ask him. Ideally, however, it would be better for you to get a response from a shaikh.

[kalaliah]

As Salaamu Waalaikum

Umm....al-ghazalli I'm confused so enlighten me please!

Do you totally disagree with the Salafi Manhaj?
Because one of your comments kinda seemed that way but Allahu Aalam

[Marwan]

Well, even Sh. Abu Isma'il once said:

Ana Hanbaliyun Mahayiytu fa in amut Fa wasiyati li al-Nasi an yatahanbalu "I am a Hanbali as long as I live, and when I die My legacy to the people is to become Hanbalis" I think it exists within all of us. We say, "al-Hamdulillah, all of us are Muslim" but deep down inside we all want everyone to be a little more like ourselves.:D

[al-ghazalli]

Walakum As Salam wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh

did you record the talk where he -Subayyil- said this?

no we were at his house, invited for dinner.


Shaykh Musa Fuber is a Hanbali scholar, I have heard some allege that he follow Ashari aqeedah but I very much doubt that. Allahu Alam.

The Ulema at www.aslein.net. are 100% Athari you could contact them inshallah.

I can understand why you are so skeptical..especially when the petro dollars of certain states distort and rob the grave of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (Rahimullah)...Its very hard these days to find the Hanbali Ulema unless you go to the remote parts of Yemen, their are some in egypt.

The Hanablis that I know of follow Mutakallimun of the Fudala' al-Hanbilah such as Ibn al-Jawzi, The Tamimi family, and the Rizqullah family.

[faqir]

aslein.net - it seems a wonderful forum which seems to be linked with the wonderful shaikh Sa'id Fawdah, is it not? but, as far as I know he is an Ash'ari and not "athari" or "hanbali" which probably goes for most of the posters there??

i have absolutely no contact with any mufawwid Hanbalis - as you appear to have contact I would appreciate if you could contact your shuyukh.

Jazakallahu khairan.

don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Hanbalis - I've just never met one !

[faqir]

I should like to add, if anyone here wants to learn about the Ash'ari Creed and debate with some knowledgable Ash'aris then I recommend you visit the site mentioned by the brother above:

http://www.aslein.net

you'll have lots of fun :D

[kalaliah]

As Salaamu Waalaikum

I thought this was a learing Area? I mean Al-humduillah for all the Nasihah & Ilm but it seems like I'm not getting any responses that can help cause their all over my head!!!

Where I'm from when we have Talim we're taught in stages & on our level of understanding AL-humduillah but I'm not getting that here BUT masha'allah

May Allah Ta'ala give me the Taufiq anyways Ameen

Jazakallahu Khayran for ALL who helped in my learning endeavors Ameen

[al-ghazalli]

As Salaamu Waalaikum

Umm....al-ghazalli I'm confused so enlighten me please!

Do you totally disagree with the Salafi Manhaj?
Because one of your comments kinda seemed that way but Allahu Aalam

Syedia forgive for I missed your post completely, I have some major concerns about what the Salafi Ulema teach the ordinary layman, but it is not my intention to point out their faults.

It is up to the Ulema to advise the layman and be critical of each other. I am nobody so I do not have that right.

Secondly my Ulema have forbidden debates since it hardens the heart.

And with Allah is all Success.

[kalaliah]

As Salaamu Waalaikum

Good Morning al-ghazalli....I Love You Fisabi'illah Akhee no need to ask for forgiveness.....Insha'allah Ta'ala I'll will reach your level of understanding of all the school of thoughts & can understand your opinions Ameen

[Selamat]

I can't vote, there's no Mutazilah option.

[al-ghazalli]

As Salam Alikum

In the Name of Allah the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate

Bismillah wal Hamdulilah was Salatu was Salam 'ala Sayyidina Rasul Allah.

Sidi Faqir you stated;

al-Saffarini says: ‘Some scholars said: (the saved sect) meaning, Ahl al-Hadeeth, i.e. the Atharis, the Ash’aris and the Maturidis.

I say: The wording of the Hadeeth, i.e. his statement: ‘except one sect’, contradicts the idea of multiplicity, and thus I said:

This text (about the saved sect) cannot be applied to any sect
Save the Ahl al-Athar’ (1/76)

My understanding was correct and the Noble Imam (Rahimullah) did not contradict himself, the run on sentences that you gave are not from the same text.

Imām as-Safārīnī’a (Rahimullah) stated; Some Imams stated that they-meaning the Safe Sect-are the Ahl al-Hadith, meaning the People of Athar, Ash`ari and Maaturidi. I would say, The essence of the hadith and its wording, in which it is mentioned, ‘one sect,’ negates multiplicity.”

Lawaa’ih ul-Anwaar as-Sanniyyah, V. 1, pp. 140-142

This shouldn’t spell any contradiction, as the statement of those Imams that Imam as-Saffaarini, may Allah have mercy upon him, include the other two Jama`ahs within Ahl ul-Hadith, which is the Safe Sect, that one big group. There would be no contradiction if one analysed it carefully.

Another point to keep in mind is that the Imam was denying other groups besides these being amongst the Orthodox, which is understood. Thus, one would not class the cults, such as the Mu`tazilah and the like as Orthodox. So there is one firqah, but there are tawaa’if or jama`ahs within that one. It is the same with fiqh, the fundamentals are agreed but the branches are where the differences lie.

In addition to this, Imam as-Saffaarini, may Allah have mercy upon him, calls the Maaturidis and Ash`aris Orthodox again when he says,

“Thus the Attributes of the Essence are agreed upon according to Muslim Orthodoxy, the People of Athar, the Ash`aris and the Maaturidis.”

Lawaa’ih ul-Anwaar as-Sanniyyah, V. 1, pp. 259-261

The Imam in this book alone calls the Hanbalis, Maaturidis and Ash`aris Orthodox more than three times. Thus, there would be no contradiction with the Imam’s words and it’s text. Moreover, the Imam is commenting on his own text, so what would be the point of contradicting himself? If he wrote poetry and then explained himself, that is his explanation. Someone who is the author of something would have more right to comment upon it then someone who is not the author.

With the other quote, the Imam states,

Muslim Orthodoxy is three groups, the People of Athar, their Imam is Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Ash`aris, their Imam is Abul Hasan al-Ash`ari, the Maaturidis, their Imam is Abu Mansur al-Maaturidi. And as far as the astray cults, they are many indeed and this is part of what will be explained further, by the Success of Allah.”

Lawaami` ul-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah, V. 1, pp. 72-75

Three pages after, the Imam states,

“Some Imams stated that they-meaning the Safe Sect-are the Ahl al-Hadith, meaning the People of Athar, Ash`ari and Maaturidi. I would say, The essence of the hadith and its wording, in which it is mentioned, ‘one sect,’ negates multiplicity, thus I said, ‘The text is not applied to any sect except the People of Athar.’ ”

Lawaami` ul-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah, V. 1, pp. 75-76

But what did the Imam say about this poetry that he recited? He stated,

“ ‘The text is most certainly not being applied to any firqah’ is referring to the resplendent of light, the illuminated lamp who puts out darkness who narrated it. And all the while this group for certain and without doubt does not agree with, testify to the truth of or speak of any firqah from the seventy three sects but only is upon the People of Athar. And whatever remains besides them judge by the intellects and contradict that which has been given in the text from the Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him. But in fact these texts should be met with acceptance for the texts in their truthfulness and their narration are admitted by them.”

Lawaami` ul-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah, V. 1, pp. 75-76

Please keep in mind that in the pages after the Imam headlines the major cults and sects, not mentioning Ash`aris or Maaturidis as being among them. In this work, he also notes them as being Orthodox numerous times. Thus once again, the Imam’s words are not so much a contradiction as they are a statement of the position of the Orthodox but the Imam also states his position. As mentioned in the first forty pages, he puts forward the case that the Hanbalis are not just part of Muslim Orthodoxy, but that they are the Victorious Group, the branch within the Safe Sect.


With Allah is all Success.

[Abu Hasim]

Salafi's doesnt take the attributes of allah literal. When allah swt says "what prevented you from bowing downb to adam who i created with my own two hands" We all agree allah doesnt have hands like that of a human but we dont delve into the meaning of what his hands are like, what they look like, how big, what shape, or what he meant by "hands" all of this is beyond our knowledge and we're unable to intepret the reality of what he means by his face or hands. All we can do is deny likeness to that of creation or denying the ayat


what is A'thari? how are they different from salafi who are mostly hanbali.

[Marwan]

The difference is, we A'tharis don't take it litterally or metaphorically. We don't even dwelve into the topic. It's just not our concern.

[faqir]

The difference is, we A'tharis don't take it litterally or metaphorically. We don't even dwelve into the topic. It's just not our concern.

:salams

Sidi, which scholars were Atharis?



Brother al-ghazalli, thank you for your post. I'll be honest, I don't have safarini's poem and sharh. I've just seen some raise doubts as to his position based on that one rather confusing line...

The Hanablis that I know of follow Mutakallimun of the Fudala' al-Hanbilah such as Ibn al-Jawzi, The Tamimi family, and the Rizqullah family.

Are you sure these two families are not, in fact, the same?

[rezzza]

I can't vote, there's no Mutazilah option.

you gotta be joking right?

[rezzza]

Walakum As Salam wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh



no we were at his house, invited for dinner.


Shaykh Musa Fuber is a Hanbali scholar, I have heard some allege that he follow Ashari aqeedah but I very much doubt that. Allahu Alam.

The Ulema at www.aslein.net (http://www.aslein.net). are 100% Athari you could contact them inshallah.

I can understand why you are so skeptical..especially when the petro dollars of certain states distort and rob the grave of Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal (Rahimullah)...Its very hard these days to find the Hanbali Ulema unless you go to the remote parts of Yemen, their are some in egypt.

The Hanablis that I know of follow Mutakallimun of the Fudala' al-Hanbilah such as Ibn al-Jawzi, The Tamimi family, and the Rizqullah family.

What do u mean distort and rob the grave of Imam Hanbal? Also as far as I know the Ulemas in the Peninsula are Hanbalis.

[al-ghazalli]

Sidi I am talking about those certain individuals who invented the phrase Tafwid al-Kayf (relegation of the how). These people claim this is the aqeedah of Ahl as-Sunnah and deny everything else. The madhab of Imam Ahmed (Rahimullah) is clear on this aspect and so is the Athari aqeedah. Tafwid al-Kayf is something innovated and unheard of. The three schools of aqeedah reject it.



And with Allah is all Success.

[Selamat]

you gotta be joking right?

No. What makes you think that?

[Marwan]

:salams

Sidi, which scholars were Atharis?



Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ibn al-Jawzi, Ibn Qudama, etc. etc.
-----------

I wouldn't neccessarily call the Salafi u'lema 'grave robbers', as many of them encourage their followers to abide by a madhab. Their aqeeda is heterodoxy, yes, but it isn't anthropomorphist.

Guys, I love a good discussion, but let's make sure we don't start an argument. Keep it clean.

[rezzza]

No. What makes you think that?

I am not being harsh nor I am making fun of you but sometime you say you are Ibadi/Khariji, sometime Mutazili. Whats the deal. Do you know what the beliefs of Mutazila are? logic, greek philosphy and other innovations...

[Selamat]

I am not being harsh nor I am making fun of you but sometime you say you are Ibadi/Khariji, sometime Mutazili. Whats the deal. Do you know what the beliefs of Mutazila are? logic, greek philosphy and other innovations...

I'm not really a khawarij, I just said that to provoke al-Iraab. But I do lean towards mutazilah philosophy.

[Niqaabi]

I think everyone here knows what i am :rolleyes:

[bint]

I think everyone here knows what i am :rolleyes:


salafi? (well im not 100 percent thats why im asking)

btw does anyone know what the other 3 are?:S

[-Yassar]

Athari Aqeedah is basically what the authenthic Hanbali Ulema follow, if one looks into the books of the hanablis in Aqeedah and Fiqh it will always state "bi la kayr wa la ma`na" (without asking how and without delving into its meaning) They explained this is how the Hanabilah approach the Mutashabihat in that they take it for face value and leave it alone.

As for Maliki's and Shafi they usually follow Ashari Aqeedah

Hanafi's are mainly Muturidi.

Imam Imām as-Safārīnī’a (Rahimullah) who represents the mu`tamad in the hanbali madhab stated that Ahl as-Sunnah is represented by the Ashari, Mutruidi and Athari Aqeedah" and this has been agreed upon by all tradition Scholars.


With Allah is all Success.

there's your answer...

[faqir]

Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Ibn al-Jawzi, Ibn Qudama, etc. etc.
-----------

I wouldn't neccessarily call the Salafi u'lema 'grave robbers', as many of them encourage their followers to abide by a madhab. Their aqeeda is heterodoxy, yes, but it isn't anthropomorphist.

Guys, I love a good discussion, but let's make sure we don't start an argument. Keep it clean.


Apart from Ibn al-Jawzi [who practiced ta'wil] the other two shuyukh and especially Ibn Qud appear to have contradicting messages as to whether they take what some call the "attribute verses" upon their literal / dhahir or whether they negate the literal but submit the meaning to Allah [tafwid]

Do you agree?

[rezzza]

Apart from Ibn al-Jawzi [who practiced ta'wil] the other two shuyukh and especially Ibn Qud appear to have contradicting messages as to whether they take what some call the "attribute verses" upon their literal / dhahir or whether they negate the literal but submit the meaning to Allah [tafwid]

Do you agree?

I take it literal (Since I dont beleive in making changes to the words of T'ala) but his attributes suit ONLY him, since no one is like him. They cant be given a resemblence, This is where I stand.

[al-ghazalli]

subhanallah I found this to be most interesting;

Allamah Al-Bayhaqi states;


المجلد الثالث عشر >> كِتَاب التَّوْحِيدِ >> باب وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ وَهُوَ رَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْعَظِيمِ

وقال إمام الحرمين في الرسالة النظامية اختلفت مسالك العلماء في هذه الظواهر فرأى بعضهم تأويلها والتزم ذلك في آي الكتاب وما يصح من السنن، وذهب أئمة السلف إلى الانكفاف عن التأويل وإجراء الظواهر على مواردها وتفويض معانيها إلى الله تعالى والذي نرتضيه رأيا وندين الله به عقيدة اتباع سلف الأمة للدليل القاطع على أن إجماع الأمة حجة فلو كان تأويل هذه الظواهر حتما لأوشك أن يكون اهتمامهم به فوق اهتمامهم بفروع الشريعة، وإذا انصرم عصر الصحابة والتابعين على الإضراب عن التأويل كان ذلك هو الوجه المتبع انتهى.
وقد تقدم النقل عن أهل العصر الثالث وهم فقهاء الأمصار كالثوري والأوزاعي ومالك والليث ومن عاصرهم، وكذا من أخذ عنهم من الأئمة، فكيف لا يوثق بما اتفق عليه أهل القرون الثلاثة، وهم خير القرون بشهادة صاحب الشريعة، وقسم بعضهم أقوال الناس، في هذا الباب إلى ستة أقوال قولان لمن يجريها على ظاهرها أحدهما من يعتقد أنها من جنس صفات المخلوقين وهم المشبهة ويتفرع من قولهم عدة آراء، والثاني من ينفي عنها شبه صفة المخلوقين لأن ذات الله لا تشبه الذوات فصفاته لا تشبه الصفات فإن صفات كل موصوف تناسب ذاته وتلائم حقيقته، وقولان لمن يثبت كونها صفة ولكن لا يجريها على ظاهرها، أحدهما يقول لا نؤول شيئا منها بل نقول الله أعلم بمراده، والآخر يؤول فيقول مثلا معنى الاستواء الاستيلاء، واليد القدرة ونحو ذلك، وقولان لمن لا يجزم بأنها صفة أحدهما يقول يجوز أن تكون صفة وظاهرها غير مراد، ويجوز أن لا تكون صفة، والآخر يقول لا يخاض في شيء من هذا بل يجب الإيمان به لأنه من المتشابه الذي لا يدرك معناه

[Phoenix CG]

*scratches head, someone care to explain this to me?

[Abu Mus'ab]

*scratches head, someone care to explain this to me?
The ash'ari maturidi athari differences or what?

I made a thread called "Ash'ari/Maturidi/Athari" before, it just gives a brief explanation of them.